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Hockey: News and Discussion Thread

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Old 11-11-2004 | 10:15 AM
  #1201  
dom's Avatar
dom
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From: Toronto, Canada
Wirtz says NHL season is slipping away

TSN.ca Staff

11/11/2004

Chicago Blackhawks owner Bill Wirtz says the current NHL lockout is the "saddest thing in the world" but he stopped short of offering any more opinions on the subject.

"It's a difference of philosophies," Wirtz told reporters in Chicago reluctantly when pressed on the subject.

"No one wants to read the Levitt report unless you recognize what the problem is. I know what the problem is. I have to put in the money every year."

NHL owners have not been as vocal as some players when it comes to speaking about the lockout due to the threat of huge fines being levied by commissioner Gary Bettman.

Wirtz did not offer much optimism for a settlement in the dispute anytime soon.

"The commissioner said the season is slipping away, and it is," Wirtz said.

While the two sides have not scheduled any new meetings, a group of player agents and union boss Bob Goodenow are scheduled to meet next Wednesday in Chicago.
Thanks :captainobvious:

Its unfortunate that an owner can't come out an add some useful insight to this mess.
Old 11-11-2004 | 10:20 AM
  #1202  
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The season is gone, and I mourn because of it
Old 11-11-2004 | 10:25 AM
  #1203  
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This sucks!!
Old 11-11-2004 | 11:42 AM
  #1204  
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Originally Posted by KC 2004 TSX
This sucks!!
x1615641049640918686045364341360481680198165315618 41516968416416
Old 11-12-2004 | 12:28 PM
  #1205  
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I'm so desperate for a game, I've considered going to watch an intramural game.
Old 11-12-2004 | 12:31 PM
  #1206  
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Originally Posted by KC 2004 TSX
I'm so desperate for a game, I've considered going to watch an intramural game.


Luckily, we have a decent junior hockey team to watch. It's entertaining and we get to potentially see the next stars for the NHL.
Old 11-12-2004 | 12:36 PM
  #1207  
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From: Kansas City, MO USA
We have a new UHL team here called K.C. Outlaws. They had 2 home games and now they have been on the road for a month and won't have a home game until Thanksgiving.
Old 11-12-2004 | 12:38 PM
  #1208  
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Originally Posted by KC 2004 TSX
We have a new UHL team here called K.C. Outlaws. They had 2 home games and now they have been on the road for a month and won't have a home game until Thanksgiving.
UHL...go Icehogs!!
Old 11-12-2004 | 12:42 PM
  #1209  
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Originally Posted by TSX 'R' US
UHL...go Icehogs!!
KC is one of their 2 losses!!!
Old 11-12-2004 | 12:45 PM
  #1210  
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Originally Posted by KC 2004 TSX
KC is one of their 2 losses!!!
damn...
Old 11-12-2004 | 02:05 PM
  #1211  
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Originally Posted by Junkster
off topic...

yay... the domn dog is back!!!

Junkster, who thinks of that dog when picturing domn
Who thinks of Junkster when you accidentally start talking in third person..
Old 11-14-2004 | 03:31 AM
  #1212  
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just waiting for the world juniors
Old 11-15-2004 | 11:04 AM
  #1213  
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From: Kansas City, MO USA
The lock out has finally sunk in. I go to St. Louis quite often for fun , business, NHL games,etc... It's 3 to 3 1/2 hours from KC so it's an easy drive. I was there this weekend and was unable to go to an NHL game. I also had plans to go to the Blues vs. Wings over Thankgiving weekend. WTF!!!
Old 11-15-2004 | 02:23 PM
  #1214  
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Originally Posted by KC 2004 TSX
The lock out has finally sunk in. I go to St. Louis quite often for fun , business, NHL games,etc... It's 3 to 3 1/2 hours from KC so it's an easy drive. I was there this weekend and was unable to go to an NHL game. I also had plans to go to the Blues vs. Wings over Thankgiving weekend. WTF!!!
Look at it this way, KC, it gives you more time to wonder when your Chiefs are finally going to devise a defense that will actually stop someone
Old 11-16-2004 | 01:09 PM
  #1215  
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From: Kansas City, MO USA
Originally Posted by goose25
Look at it this way, KC, it gives you more time to wonder when your Chiefs are finally going to devise a defense that will actually stop someone
Yeah, the Chiefs couldn't catch 2 dogs humping right now...
Old 11-17-2004 | 11:00 PM
  #1216  
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Originally Posted by Jonesi
Who thinks of Junkster when you accidentally start talking in third person..


Old 11-17-2004 | 11:02 PM
  #1217  
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Originally Posted by KC 2004 TSX
I'm so desperate for a game, I've considered going to watch an intramural game.

I just got me some new cable channels so I'm atleast getting some of the college games

I've also been trying to catch a game a week over at West Point


Only semi good thing about no season - My beloved Rangers won't toy with my emotions
Old 11-17-2004 | 11:54 PM
  #1218  
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Originally Posted by Melanie
My beloved Rangers won't toy with my emotions
Can you believe that it has been 10 years since the Rangers last won the cup? The sports networks have been showing the classic games on

I saw the re-broadcast of the game 7 and all I can say was man was Vancouver ever close to pulling it off. That series was probably one of the last "good" Stanley Cup finals that I've ever seen in my life time.

Now it's at the onwers and the NHLPA!
Old 11-18-2004 | 09:21 AM
  #1219  
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From: Orange County, NY
Originally Posted by TSXforme
Can you believe that it has been 10 years since the Rangers last won the cup? The sports networks have been showing the classic games on

I saw the re-broadcast of the game 7 and all I can say was man was Vancouver ever close to pulling it off. That series was probably one of the last "good" Stanley Cup finals that I've ever seen in my life time.

Now it's at the onwers and the NHLPA!
I'll have to keep an eye out for the classic Ranger games


I wish I remembered more of the '94 Cup but sadly I was only 11 and I can barely rememer last week let alone 10 years ago
Old 11-18-2004 | 09:30 AM
  #1220  
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Damn 94 cup... took away the best chant us Flyers fans had...

It was a great Finals though - even I'll admit that. How many games went into OT? 4?
Old 11-18-2004 | 09:31 AM
  #1221  
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Originally Posted by KC 2004 TSX
I'm so desperate for a game, I've considered going to watch an intramural game.
I think I'm going to break down and go to an AHL game. Fortunately there's a team nearby... in Philly (!).. and they've won 8 in a row
Old 11-24-2004 | 02:46 PM
  #1222  
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11/24/2004

TORONTO (CP) - The NHL Players' Association will pay out between $29 million and $44 million US in lockout pay this season.

The payments will start this month with more than 730 players getting $10,000 each for November and another $10,000 for December, The Canadian Press has learned.

Subsequent monthly payments will vary between $5,000 or $10,000. The NHLPA refused to detail the payment schedule but said the "initial" plan will cover the next 24 months.

Those numbers would work out to a minimum of $40,000 and maximum of $60,000 per player through April, although the maximum would likely not be reached.

That translates into a total of between $29.2 million and $43.8 million through April. Over 24 months, it would be a low of $94.9 million and a high of $175.2 million (from $130,000 to $240,000 per player).

The money comes from a pool saved up over the years from union dues and licensing fees, among other sources.

"As a result of the ongoing owners' lockout, the NHLPA executive committee has announced a player stipend plan which consists of an initial 24-month schedule and monthly payments for over 730 locked-out players," Ted Saskin, NHLPA senior director, said in a statement released to The Canadian Press. "Each locked-out NHLPA member receives the same monthly payments."

During normal operations, players only get paid during the regular season - 13 paycheques, two for each month and one for April since the schedule ends partway through.

The average salary of an NHL player was $1.8 million last season, which worked out to about $138,000 per paycheque. That translates into about $1.31 billion for the season - or about $1.1 billion from November on.

Players have missed three paycheques to date.

Using the average salary, an NHL player would normally make about $277,000 per month during the regular season. Lockout pay of $10,000 a month equals some 3.6 per cent of that amount.

The NHL minimum salary was officially $180,000 last season - or about $27,700 a month during the regular season - although it is rare a player makes it.

It's not clear whether all players will accept the lockout pay, especially high-end salary players. One prominent agent said Wednesday it was too early to tell.

The lockout pay probably won't score points with hockey fans already fed up with the players - according to the 2001 census, the average Canadian annual income was $31,750 Cdn. But the union hopes to send a strong message to the league by showing it has enough money to take care of its players for two more years.

The league would not bite when asked for comment Wednesday.

"That's an internal union matter," Bill Daly, the NHL's executive vice-president and chief legal officer, said from New York. "We have no reaction or comment."

The union's executive committee, consisting of current players, discussed lockout pay with player reps Nov. 2 in Toronto. The committee then announced the final details to the membership through the union's secure website Tuesday.

The committee consists of president Trevor Linden, and vice-presidents Bob Boughner, Vincent Damphousse, Daniel Alfredsson, Bill Guerin, Trent Klatt and Arturs Irbe.

The NHLPA is planning to hold another meeting in Toronto with more than 200 players sometime in the first two weeks of December.

The NHL will hold a dinner meeting to update the league's 30 general managers Dec. 2 in New York.

The two sides haven't held bargaining talks since Sept. 9 in Toronto. Through Wednesday night, 282 of the season's 1,230 games had gone by the wayside.

Those poor bastards. How will they ever survive on 10K a month?
Old 11-24-2004 | 02:58 PM
  #1223  
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I could careless anymore, this lockout hurts the NHL'S image and leaves the fans upset. These players and teams already get enough money. I've about had enough of professional sports, seems like some players only play for the high salaries....greedy bastards.
Old 11-24-2004 | 03:30 PM
  #1224  
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Originally Posted by Agent_Chen
I could careless anymore, this lockout hurts the NHL'S image and leaves the fans upset. These players and teams already get enough money. I've about had enough of professional sports, seems like some players only play for the high salaries....greedy bastards.

Especially since the NHL is no where near as popular as other pro sports, you'd think they would try to make the fans they do have happy
Old 11-30-2004 | 03:43 PM
  #1225  
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Bettman still opposes NHL luxury tax

Canadian Press

11/30/2004

EDMONTON (CP) - [color=red=The Edmonton Oilers and the Calgary Flames have no future if the league doesn't get a better deal with the players, NHL commissioner Gary Bettman said Tuesday.

He told reporters in Edmonton that a deal that gives parity to the league's 30 teams is essential for small-market clubs that can't afford to compete for players with the wealthier big market teams.[/color]

''Most franchises are doing better than they were, but franchises like this franchise and Calgary don't have a future if we don't fix this the right way,'' he said.

''Owners have had enough of this situation and we owe it to our fans to stabilize the franchises and to ensure that our franchises are competitive.''

Bettman, who met with the 38-member Edmonton Oilers Investors Group before visiting Calgary on Wednesday, said it isn't any fun for the fans of small-market teams that don't believe their teams have a chance at making the playoffs, let alone have a shot at winning the Stanley Cup.

In fact, Calgary came within one game of winning the Cup last season, losing to Tampa Bay in the final. Edmonton missed the playoffs but Forbes magazine said the Oilers ranked seventh in the league last season with operating income of $3.3 million US.

''What Gary Bettman failed to tell his audience in Edmonton was that the Edmonton Oilers and Calgary Flames were among the most profitable teams in the NHL last year when the (Canadian) dollar averaged 74 cents (US) and they were operating under our recently expired CBA,'' Ted Saskin, NHLPA senior director, said from Toronto.

''With the dollar consistently over 80 cents this year, and the significant concessions we have already offered in our proposals, they would have been far more profitable.''

Bettman said Edmonton and Calgary are not the only clubs in peril if a better deal is not struck between the league owners and the locked out players.

''We're at risk big time. Lots of franchises are at risk if we don't fix this the right way.''

Bettman received a standing ovation at a packed Edmonton Chamber of Commerce breakfast speech when he pledged to get the right deal to ensure the economic viability of the club.

''I believe more than ever that without our Canadian franchises there is no National Hockey League,'' he said. ''This is where hockey works. This is where hockey is important.''

''No longer should we have to go through drives to save the Oilers. No longer do we have to go through competitive droughts.''

Bettman said the right economic system will give the Oilers their rightful place in the league they dominated in the 1980s until player salaries went through the roof.

''I promise we will get you what you need and most importantly, what you deserve,'' Bettman told the applauding business owners.

Oilers general manager Kevin Lowe said it isn't only fans who don't enjoy the current arrangement that sees the best players go to the richest clubs and leaves the small-market teams unable to afford to sign coveted free agents.

He said he won't continue as general manager if the system is not fixed to give the Oilers a fighting chance.

''If we had to go operate under the previous system, I wouldn't do it again,'' he said.

Oilers chairman Cal Nichols said the Oilers will likely have to borrow money to keep afloat if the lockout goes into a second season.

He said the club anticipated losing $13 million this year if the players didn't take the ice, but that figure is down to $10 million thanks to the success of its AHL Roadrunners franchise, now based in Edmonton after a stint in Toronto.

While in Edmonton, Bettman reiterated the league's position that it won't consider the players' proposed luxury tax.

''They claim that will somehow fix our problems, I'm here to tell you today . . . that a luxury tax will not work and in fact I think it would create a potential for future disasters in the NHL,'' he said.

He said the only offer the players have made is to continue the status quo which is not acceptable.

The NHL and NHLPA haven't had a formal collective bargaining session since Sept. 9 in Toronto when the league officially rejected the union's luxury tax-based proposal.

The league has said it doesn't believe in a luxury tax because it's not predictable and doesn't guarantee what it calls cost certainty. The owners are seeking a salary cap, much like the system in the NFL.

Bettman also reiterated that the owners don't have a drop-dead date for when they would have to pull the plug on the 2004-05 season.

He said the players' association is kidding itself if it doesn't believe the owners are unified in their position

''A lot has been said and speculated about how we managed to achieve this level of unity,'' he said. ''It wasn't by me putting a trance on the owners. It wasn't by me mixing up a potion of Kool-Aid that I got all the owners to drink.''

''The reason why the owners are so unified is the problems are so profound and they know it. . . . They've had enough.''
Much of the same. Why not actually sit down at the table and at least act like your trying to work out a deal.
Old 12-13-2004 | 02:38 AM
  #1226  
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Damn, I wish Hockey was on...

I really want to see some Hockey. I hope the deal goes though.
Old 12-13-2004 | 11:47 AM
  #1227  
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i'm with ya. i need another sport around here
Old 12-13-2004 | 11:52 AM
  #1228  
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It's not the same watching sports and NO Hockey! Tis the season!!!
Can't they just get it together and get a damn deal!
Old 12-13-2004 | 12:00 PM
  #1229  
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I maybe Canadian, but I HATE HOCKEY...hell I hate baseball and American Football!
BAN them please!



Old 12-13-2004 | 12:08 PM
  #1230  
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Originally Posted by MADCAT
I maybe Canadian, but I HATE HOCKEY...hell I hate baseball and American Football!
BAN them please!



What do you like CRICKET? Don't be a hater, be a player!
Old 12-13-2004 | 12:47 PM
  #1231  
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And Cricket is for Crackheads!
Along with bowling and ping-pong!



Originally Posted by bearback27
What do you like CRICKET? Don't be a hater, be a player!
Old 12-13-2004 | 01:21 PM
  #1232  
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Originally Posted by MADCAT
And Cricket is for Crackheads!
Along with bowling and ping-pong!
waterpolo?
Old 12-13-2004 | 01:48 PM
  #1233  
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Originally Posted by SG81
waterpolo?
nah he likes mens gymnastics
Old 12-13-2004 | 02:08 PM
  #1234  
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The only sport I watch or go to games is (or WAS) Hockey.

But any Pro Sports League that goes on Strike to get MORE money can kiss my shiny metal ass. After this BS, I wont be watching or goigng to hockey anymore. Fuckers make more in a week than most make in a year and its Not enough.
Old 12-13-2004 | 02:28 PM
  #1235  
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i wish hockey was on. I play hockey all the time and i go to the games i have season tix for the nj devs, what a mess.
Old 12-13-2004 | 02:28 PM
  #1236  
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Not all that surprising but last Thursday's offer isn't going anywhere.

NHL to reject NHLPA proposal

TSN.ca Staff

12/13/2004

The outlook for this National Hockey League season has never been more bleak than it is today.

TSN has obtained a copy of a confidential eight-page memorandum sent by the NHL to all 30 member clubs, outlining the league's reaction to the NHL Players' Association proposal of last week and clearly stating the NHL's intention to reject the proposal and counter with one of its own.

"In sum, we believe the Union's December 9 CBA proposal, while offering necessary and significant short-term financial relief, falls well short of providing the fundamental systemic changes that are required to ensure that overall League economics remain in synch on a going-forward basis," NHL executive vice president Bill Daly wrote in the Dec. 12 memo which went to all governors and alternative governors, including many NHL general managers. "While the immediate 'rollback' of 24 per cent offered by the Union would materially improve League economics for the 2004-05 season, there is virtually nothing in the Union's proposal that would prevent the dollars 'saved' from being re-directed right back into the player compensation system, such that the League's overall financial losses would approach current levels in only a matter of a couple of years."

The memo reiterated NHL commissioner Gary Bettman's intention to provide a counter-proposal to the NHLPA at a 1 p.m. meeting on Tuesday in Toronto. The memo said the counter proposal "will be an appropriate response to the Union's offer and will ensure the League's future stability and long-term health."

In other words, the counter-proposal is likely to contain "cost certainty" or a linkage between salaries and revenues, which the NHLPA sees as a "salary cap" and a non-starter for negotiations.

Not only does this league document provide a specific reaction to every aspect of the NHLPA's Dec. 9 proposal, but also "cynically" questions the motives of the NHLPA, especially with regard to the proposed salary rollback of a whopping 24 per cent.

"We believe the Union's offer was more about trying to unify the players and ensure player solidarity with what they would perceive as a very substantial proposal than it was about making a good faith effort to reach agreement us..." Daly wrote. "...The Union needed the 'rallying point' that it felt this offer would provide with the players to effectuate this strategy. Under this scenario, the Union will likely (and quickly) break off negotiations."

The league document does not specifically spell out what may be in the NHL's counter-proposal, but does touch on some of what will be part of it, including the abolition of salary arbitration in its entirety and a "restructuring" of the NHLPA's 24 per cent salary rollback.

"We plan to make a counter-offer to the Union on Tuesday in Toronto consistent with our mandate from (the governors) in that regard," the memo said.

It's not difficult to figure out what will be in the counter proposal when you look at how the league reacted to the NHLPA's specific proposals:

On the NHLPA-proposed 24 per cent rollback for all existing contracts, the NHL reaction is: "...(while) the Union's offer in this regard was significant in the same approximate range of magnitude that will be necessary, we believe the 'rollback' should be structured among the players in a more equitable manner than the Union's current proposal envisions."

On the NHLPA-proposed changes to the entry-level system, the league's reaction is: "...we do not believe the Union's proposed changes to the Entry Level System go far enough...while the Union's proposed changes to the Entry Level System are positive and, in certain cases, might lead to cost savings, history has proven that because there is no absolute limit on the amount an Entry Level Player can earn in a given year, the Entry Level Salary Cap can (and will) still easily be circumvented."

On the NHLPA-proposed changes to the qualifying offer system, the league reaction is: "We do not believe the proposed changes to the level of required Qualifying Offers are meaningful, and certainly would not result in the savings of the magnitude projected by the Union."

On the NHLPA-proposed changes to salary arbitration, the league reaction is: "We believe these changes would have very limited impact (if any) on a Club's or League-wide economics...We intend to reiterate our proposal to eliminate salary arbitration in our next offer to the Union."

On the NHLPA-proposed luxury tax system that would start with a tax of 25 per cent on payrolls over $45 million with additional tax rates at thresholds of $50 million and $60 million, the league reaction is: "...the Union's actual proposal on Thursday demonstrated its continuing objective to avoid at all costs placing meaningful restraints on a Club's ability to spend excessively on player salaries...we remain firmly opposed to any new economic system that is premused on salary restraints encouraged by a luxury tax...The League's economic problems are too significant, and the future success of this sport too important, to accept a system based on projections and guesswork, particularly when we believe that the underlying dynamics of operating af team will not have been addressed."

On the NHLPA-proposed revenue redistribution plan which would see high revenue teams provide funds for lower revenue teams, the NHL reaction is: "we envision a revenue sharing pool that will be funded primarily by a portion of revenues generated in the Stanley Cup playoffs," as opposed to revenue sharing on the basis of regular-season revenues.

Clearly, in spite of the NHLPA offer of last week, the two sides could not be further apart. With both sides so entrenched in their current positions on the issue of cost certainty or linkage or salary cap, there is no reason to believe there will be any negotiations coming out of Tuesday's session in Toronto.
Old 12-13-2004 | 02:41 PM
  #1237  
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The players proposal doesnt fix anything. But its a start I suppose.
Old 12-13-2004 | 02:49 PM
  #1238  
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Originally Posted by fsttyms1
nah he likes mens gymnastics


He hates on everything, except, of course, mens gymnastics and possibly figure skating.
Old 12-13-2004 | 02:50 PM
  #1239  
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dom
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Originally Posted by fdl
The players proposal doesnt fix anything. But its a start I suppose.

No, it fixes the problem for two or three years at most.

But players are acting as if they've given their first child. In reality whats to stop the Leafs or Rangers from now going out and spending an extra 10 to 15 million now that they've saved it? It just doesn't work but the players feel the fans are too stupid to see it.
Old 12-13-2004 | 02:51 PM
  #1240  
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Originally Posted by Casper42
The only sport I watch or go to games is (or WAS) Hockey.

But any Pro Sports League that goes on Strike to get MORE money can kiss my shiny metal ass. After this BS, I wont be watching or goigng to hockey anymore. Fuckers make more in a week than most make in a year and its Not enough.
Well, the players aren't striking, the owners are on a lock out. Not a big fan of hockey, so it doen't bother me too much. Still got football and college b-ball.


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