One option; and buy the TLX SH-AWD V6 for 57,000
04-03-2014, 07:00 PM
#121
Itz JDM y0!
The base S4 with the 7spd Auto is $49,500, fully loaded I could see a 57k 400hp+ TLX, it would still undercut a fully loaded S4 by a few $k. A 335i similarily equipped is ~56-57k.
04-03-2014, 08:26 PM
#122
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For example, I don't particularly care for the 3, think it can get expensive for how I like my cars and a bit relative to others in other classes, and that it is small for me. All subjective qualities. However it's a great car and a market leader for those looking for that kind of car. And that's about it, I don't need to get into the stuff that may or may not actually have any basis in the car or about the brand like the snob imagery or appeal, the lack of LSD, use of struts, and single piston brakes, that it's 33% of what makes BMW and all over the world and it's not particularly impressive as a luxury car outside of entry level (not that the TL is) for such an esteemed luxury brand, etc. .
You don’t like struts but Porsche, Ferrari & Lamborghini like struts. My car has struts but also the Dynamic Handling Package which is a fully adaptive real time integrated suspension system that controls steering, shocks, transmission intensity & throttle tip-in. Multiple base settings from luxury up through Sport+. Similar to what the M3 was running.
LSD’s while not standard equipment is an M-sport option for both the 2 & 4 series. I expect it might also be available for the rest of the sedan 3 series but I never looked into it. A LSD is not needed IMHO unless the car will be heavily tracked, does nothing for 1/4 mile runs because the nanny computer controls wheel spin. I did not order the LSD. The Cobra has a LSD & will get a lot of track day time at VIR. My 435 has 4 piston front brakes & 2 piston rear brakes, not 1 piston. In any series adding sport costs more money.
So yes my car costs more than a base model but a TL-SHAWD full load out also costs more than a FWD TL doesn't it? Since I don’t buy base cars what the base cars content has or doesn't have is irrelevant to me.
Why not list the other cars (Chevy SS, Ford SHO, Dodge SRT & Mustang GT) since they already fit the proposed TL 400hp 4 door model specs & are on the good side of $50K. I don’t think you are trying to say the TLX is superior to these cars. Be interesting thing to see supported since they all sound like the ideal TLX high performance car but with a $10K discount.
Also no problem with people moving up line. That being said Acura jumped the price with the 4G & that did not work out so well. Additionally you are asking the average TL buyer to jump almost $20K. That does not seem reasonable. Even jumping $10K to get into a SS, SHO or SRT is not very likely. These are the things Honda would be thinking about before committing money to the project
Honda has done an OK job selling inside the corporate family but not so well against anyone else. Seemed to make sense to point out there were high performance cars available in the upper end TL buyers current price range & you did not have to go to $57K. It also made sense to me if a high performance TLX was offered it need to compete price wise with these cars & not MB, BMW, AUDI & Lexus. Just consider the RLX as Hondas testing of the $50-60+ waters & see how it develops.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 04-03-2014 at 08:39 PM.
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cp3117 (04-04-2014)
04-03-2014, 08:31 PM
#123
04-03-2014, 08:33 PM
#124
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weather (04-03-2014)
04-03-2014, 10:39 PM
#125
As far as size, I have no problem with anyone liking bigger or smaller cars, perfectly legal just think there are limits or lines one can draw in the name of balance. Large sedans and trucks are not the best handlers, while coupes and compacts are limited in space. Some people don't like balance and that is fine, we're talking more subjective criteria then. Based on less subjective criteria and looking more at a singular vehicle from a engineering, design and purpose perspective, mid sized is a great balance at least as it relates to a context of high performance vehicle that is also well rounded and practical enough for daily driving. The latter at least something most on auto based internet forums can appreciate.
So if you abandon your own needs and preferences, throw them out the window, you look at all vehicles across all the spectrum or spectrums and now you are trying to blend daily driver, with high performance, all weather versatility, comfort, gas mileage as best you can in the context, price, storage space, passenger space and comfort, luxury and amenities, etc, I'm confident you arrive at mid size luxury AWD.
It is the center of the center, it strikes the most balance of all cars IMO and if others disagree that's fine but I would ask what is the most balanced type of vehicle instead? Based on those findings, if the high performance luxury mid can carry extra passengers and or has more room, AWD, while being just or nearly as capable, regardless or more trivial subjective characteristics and just so happens to have these pluses, etc, where is the downside as it relates to a more objective view as a whole of a single extremely well balanced vehicle?
Now people may not need any of that, want and prefer these things and may not need balance or get that in other ways but now that deviates from cars and car engineering, design and purpose, in general and in total, and instead goes more to the individual. I might be totally off my rocker but would hope some can see what I'm getting at. Then there are a lot who probably don't get past the "it's pretty" or "I like the color" stuff so outside of really technical and widespread basis we don't see that so it usually includes different types of considerations.
I get the sense that these are a few sticking points for you, as it relates to the rest of the discussion. They are, 100k sales for the 3/4 and TL or TLX shares it's platform with an Accord. Think you will have better luck here with the I like something smaller and RWD, once again. I get that's it's not RWD which is very popular in the luxury segments but outside of that, many here don't see the basis of the inferiority of the so called Accord based platform especially based on the above examples, need something more there to go off of.
With regards to the sales number, is there a rule that one can only buy a car that sells more than 7k units a month or something? Should one disregard subjective preference or even more objective balance relating to other cars and all the other qualities and things people look at or value and consider in cars and simply buy the car that everyone else does and just for that or those reason?
There really would be no other cars or so little variety and that would suck, if it had to be only RWD, a coupe and sold exceptionally well. So really these things should have little to nothing to do with anything, it starts and ends with the finished products and how they compare to each other and how that relates to the buyer and what they look at or look for. Something else that isn't liked or not well suited is not magically or automatically inferior or less capable than it is because of those reasons.
For example, I don't particularly care for the 3, think it can get expensive for how I like my cars and a bit relative to others in other classes, and that it is small for me. All subjective qualities. However it's a great car and a market leader for those looking for that kind of car. And that's about it, I don't need to get into the stuff that may or may not actually have any basis in the car or about the brand like the snob imagery or appeal, the lack of LSD, use of struts, and single piston brakes, that it's 33% of what makes BMW and all over the world and it's not particularly impressive as a luxury car outside of entry level (not that the TL is) for such an esteemed luxury brand, etc. Just like others do about the so called "Accord" platform and Acura/Honda relation and/or image because, just the same, I don't think it has any basis and secondly, even if it did, not sure where any of that actually fits in or relates to the finished products themselves. Most here don't shout these things from the mountain, except in these discussion because, for one thing, I know that I don't care enough one way or another and maybe as a general auto enthusiast, these things are probably beneath that.
So if you abandon your own needs and preferences, throw them out the window, you look at all vehicles across all the spectrum or spectrums and now you are trying to blend daily driver, with high performance, all weather versatility, comfort, gas mileage as best you can in the context, price, storage space, passenger space and comfort, luxury and amenities, etc, I'm confident you arrive at mid size luxury AWD.
It is the center of the center, it strikes the most balance of all cars IMO and if others disagree that's fine but I would ask what is the most balanced type of vehicle instead? Based on those findings, if the high performance luxury mid can carry extra passengers and or has more room, AWD, while being just or nearly as capable, regardless or more trivial subjective characteristics and just so happens to have these pluses, etc, where is the downside as it relates to a more objective view as a whole of a single extremely well balanced vehicle?
Now people may not need any of that, want and prefer these things and may not need balance or get that in other ways but now that deviates from cars and car engineering, design and purpose, in general and in total, and instead goes more to the individual. I might be totally off my rocker but would hope some can see what I'm getting at. Then there are a lot who probably don't get past the "it's pretty" or "I like the color" stuff so outside of really technical and widespread basis we don't see that so it usually includes different types of considerations.
I get the sense that these are a few sticking points for you, as it relates to the rest of the discussion. They are, 100k sales for the 3/4 and TL or TLX shares it's platform with an Accord. Think you will have better luck here with the I like something smaller and RWD, once again. I get that's it's not RWD which is very popular in the luxury segments but outside of that, many here don't see the basis of the inferiority of the so called Accord based platform especially based on the above examples, need something more there to go off of.
With regards to the sales number, is there a rule that one can only buy a car that sells more than 7k units a month or something? Should one disregard subjective preference or even more objective balance relating to other cars and all the other qualities and things people look at or value and consider in cars and simply buy the car that everyone else does and just for that or those reason?
There really would be no other cars or so little variety and that would suck, if it had to be only RWD, a coupe and sold exceptionally well. So really these things should have little to nothing to do with anything, it starts and ends with the finished products and how they compare to each other and how that relates to the buyer and what they look at or look for. Something else that isn't liked or not well suited is not magically or automatically inferior or less capable than it is because of those reasons.
For example, I don't particularly care for the 3, think it can get expensive for how I like my cars and a bit relative to others in other classes, and that it is small for me. All subjective qualities. However it's a great car and a market leader for those looking for that kind of car. And that's about it, I don't need to get into the stuff that may or may not actually have any basis in the car or about the brand like the snob imagery or appeal, the lack of LSD, use of struts, and single piston brakes, that it's 33% of what makes BMW and all over the world and it's not particularly impressive as a luxury car outside of entry level (not that the TL is) for such an esteemed luxury brand, etc. Just like others do about the so called "Accord" platform and Acura/Honda relation and/or image because, just the same, I don't think it has any basis and secondly, even if it did, not sure where any of that actually fits in or relates to the finished products themselves. Most here don't shout these things from the mountain, except in these discussion because, for one thing, I know that I don't care enough one way or another and maybe as a general auto enthusiast, these things are probably beneath that.
Bear knows very well what you’re talking about, his only objective is making Acura look bad, and in most of his posts he is bashing the Acura brand. The word is called (Trolling) I believe. Pardon my English; I’m still learning and try to do my best every day, I was born and raised in Europe living there for 45 Years.
In his no sense making comparisons Bear plain refuses to see the whole point, which is far beyond Turbo’s, Horsepower, Torque etc. much more a creation speaking to the automobile enthusiast and a boost for the Acura brand. If the price would be 50K Bear would say…. Acura did again, another piece of Sh..
Bear, if I may ask to stop your nonsense in my thread, debate is great, not so much without substance.
Bear, I wish you good luck in your further endeavors of life.
Drive safe
Last edited by mylove4cars; 04-03-2014 at 10:42 PM.
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weather (04-04-2014)
04-03-2014, 11:18 PM
#127
I spend a bit more on a car than average for a 3 series because I like the performance options. My original plan this year was to get a Stingray about $75K with my equipment choices or a Boxer $90K with my equipment choices, both can be had for less money but the options are what I choose for my car. Instead, on a “why not” decision around Christmas I decided to get the Cobra so the 435 looked like a nice choice to fill out what I had planned to spend & keep peace in the family.
You don’t like struts but Porsche, Ferrari & Lamborghini like struts. My car has struts but also the Dynamic Handling Package which is a fully adaptive real time integrated suspension system that controls steering, shocks, transmission intensity & throttle tip-in. Multiple base settings from luxury up through Sport+. Similar to what the M3 was running.
LSD’s while not standard equipment is an M-sport option for both the 2 & 4 series. I expect it might also be available for the rest of the sedan 3 series but I never looked into it. A LSD is not needed IMHO unless the car will be heavily tracked, does nothing for 1/4 mile runs because the nanny computer controls wheel spin. I did not order the LSD. The Cobra has a LSD & will get a lot of track day time at VIR. My 435 has 4 piston front brakes & 2 piston rear brakes, not 1 piston. In any series adding sport costs more money.
So yes my car costs more than a base model but a TL-SHAWD full load out also costs more than a FWD TL doesn't it? Since I don’t buy base cars what the base cars content has or doesn't have is irrelevant to me.
Why not list the other cars (Chevy SS, Ford SHO, Dodge SRT & Mustang GT) since they already fit the proposed TL 400hp 4 door model specs & are on the good side of $50K. I don’t think you are trying to say the TLX is superior to these cars. Be interesting thing to see supported since they all sound like the ideal TLX high performance car but with a $10K discount.
Also no problem with people moving up line. That being said Acura jumped the price with the 4G & that did not work out so well. Additionally you are asking the average TL buyer to jump almost $20K. That does not seem reasonable. Even jumping $10K to get into a SS, SHO or SRT is not very likely. These are the things Honda would be thinking about before committing money to the project
Honda has done an OK job selling inside the corporate family but not so well against anyone else. Seemed to make sense to point out there were high performance cars available in the upper end TL buyers current price range & you did not have to go to $57K. It also made sense to me if a high performance TLX was offered it need to compete price wise with these cars & not MB, BMW, AUDI & Lexus. Just consider the RLX as Hondas testing of the $50-60+ waters & see how it develops.
You don’t like struts but Porsche, Ferrari & Lamborghini like struts. My car has struts but also the Dynamic Handling Package which is a fully adaptive real time integrated suspension system that controls steering, shocks, transmission intensity & throttle tip-in. Multiple base settings from luxury up through Sport+. Similar to what the M3 was running.
LSD’s while not standard equipment is an M-sport option for both the 2 & 4 series. I expect it might also be available for the rest of the sedan 3 series but I never looked into it. A LSD is not needed IMHO unless the car will be heavily tracked, does nothing for 1/4 mile runs because the nanny computer controls wheel spin. I did not order the LSD. The Cobra has a LSD & will get a lot of track day time at VIR. My 435 has 4 piston front brakes & 2 piston rear brakes, not 1 piston. In any series adding sport costs more money.
So yes my car costs more than a base model but a TL-SHAWD full load out also costs more than a FWD TL doesn't it? Since I don’t buy base cars what the base cars content has or doesn't have is irrelevant to me.
Why not list the other cars (Chevy SS, Ford SHO, Dodge SRT & Mustang GT) since they already fit the proposed TL 400hp 4 door model specs & are on the good side of $50K. I don’t think you are trying to say the TLX is superior to these cars. Be interesting thing to see supported since they all sound like the ideal TLX high performance car but with a $10K discount.
Also no problem with people moving up line. That being said Acura jumped the price with the 4G & that did not work out so well. Additionally you are asking the average TL buyer to jump almost $20K. That does not seem reasonable. Even jumping $10K to get into a SS, SHO or SRT is not very likely. These are the things Honda would be thinking about before committing money to the project
Honda has done an OK job selling inside the corporate family but not so well against anyone else. Seemed to make sense to point out there were high performance cars available in the upper end TL buyers current price range & you did not have to go to $57K. It also made sense to me if a high performance TLX was offered it need to compete price wise with these cars & not MB, BMW, AUDI & Lexus. Just consider the RLX as Hondas testing of the $50-60+ waters & see how it develops.
For example, I just presented the same argument to you in one capacity or another but it sounds like for you the reasons for not looking further down the coupe RWD spectrum of cars is warranted with regards to the 4 series but it's not in terms of the TLX version. Can you please explain this or why that is? And in a more generalized sense and perhaps not entirely as it pertains to you personally.
What I'm getting at is that I don't really care about the struts or not, in of themselves, it's of little to no relevance compared to other cars even if they use something else. I'm going to base the car on the actual finished product, not what they used, started with or how they got there. While it appears you have a confirmed problem with the TL using the same "platform" as the Accord (not to mention it's sales volume) and in that same exact respect I say why? It's one thing to not like FWD but the association just like the struts is not automatically a bad thing. The TL has not struggled against relative competitors as a result of it's platform.
The TLS was/is an excellent handling vehicle, the SH is as well, you may not like the drivetrain for subjective reasoning but where is the basis that the platform or it's use is a bad thing relative to major competitors? For example, does it not handle well, as well? Is it terribly down on power due to platform alone? Is it not safe? Etc.
I also tend to agree that the select BMW cars do fine, for the most part, without a mechanical LSD. Not an option on the regular 3 as far as I know, but maybe should be IMO. As it does fine on single piston brakes, M sport version have upgrades, that is correct, doesn't change the regular models though but, like the platform for the TL or TLX, I do not think this is or should be a or the deal breaker, again just like these are not for BMW. Outside of how it pertains you personally, why should one set be any better or any worse than the other? It should't, it's not for me.
It's hypocritical to say that these are ok for BMW but that's not for Acura. With regards to adjustable settings, it's best summed up as minus this, plus that which to an extent is every car's story. Everybody has stuff, some more than others, some come cheap, some you pay dearly for, it's not necessarily compensation for what's lacking but all goes into consideration at the end.
Those other cars you named would still be lacking what you find lacking in coupe models below the 4 series, for example. It's the same thing. We know about SH-AWD, we know what to expect as far as new tech and features and typical Acura qualities. It's also about balance on a large scale, hp is not at all uncommon at any level. It's a bit unimpressive by itself if you ask me. You found something you like and want, for around that price, why rain on someone else's parade, if that's what they want or hope comes into production?
Again, they did not really jump the price on the 4G necessarily, it went up accordingly at a bad time and it was in many ways more of the same in a different body style, one that was controversial to say the least, except for the SH which saw the more substantial upgrades and also gave off some sticker shock and likely alienated the base for a few reasons. FWIW though, all said and done my SH was cheaper to finance than my TLS all things being equal, rates went down, incentives up, even a $5k sticker premium meant nothing in the end. Most finding were similar. Even leasing was close. Not much of a pricing factor and counters some of the RLX argument, especially the Acura relative to sticker one. 3G and 4G average base are close in price considering inflation, rates, and higher priced models now vs then driving it up a bit.
I agree with the rest but nobody is asking the average TL buyer to buy anything, just like nobody asked you to buy a well equipped 435i M but I'm sure you're glad they made it. Why would this TLX not need compete with other LUXURY makes? Is that what you are afraid of? Pricing is a large part of the competing with who and where. The RLX is not a perfect example of Acura attempting to launch a car in the $50k-$60k range because they brought a sword to a gun show which is much of the problem. Great car, doesn't fit that market. That doesn't say to me that Acura at $50k equals fail. It says RL and RLX fails for that market. Ultra conservative attempt to only "try".
In it's current configuration they should have either pushed it up or down but not there. It's too niche, even the SH-SH will not be highly accepted because of it's hybrid nature. It really is a unique and valid attempt but that's a stubborn predetermined market, hard for anyone to really break into even with RWD and V8. Again if we want to attribute some of that to their luxury image that's fine but at the same time, how are they ever going to break in there, and improve it in general, if they don't do these types of things in the first place?
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 04-03-2014 at 11:32 PM.
04-04-2014, 11:24 AM
#128
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Not sure what your 45 years in Europe has to do with anything but I lived in England for 8 years & ran a company that provided cars to its lower through senior managers. List ran from BMW 318 & equivalent to Jaguar Sovereign & equivalent. I drove a Jag but all the rest of senior management drove MB “S”
If anything people there got into much more of a hissy fit over what cars were available on their job grade list then ever happens on these boards. The fights over what status car you drove home to the neighborhood was unreal.
Actually what I would say & what I did say earlier in the thread is if they had a TLX prototype looking car with 400hp they would sell at $50K where the typical TL owner has a shot of being able to afford it.
Typical owner in the example is where the TL is their most expensive new car purchase @ $36K & not the second or third car in a family. The SHAWD Advance is the top of the line & optioned out has a selling price of $42K & it does not sell in any great numbers compared to the base car.
Acura cannot price out it base because it has no track record with conquest sales against cars with a base buying population $7-10K more expensive to start out with & already running up to $70K (optioned 435M Convertible) & selling cars at that price.
The thing is ignoring all the development costs nobody has explained exactly where the customers for this car will come from & why they will come.
Finally no hate for Acura drove my TL for about 6 years & would recommend the car to anyone who asked about it. My immediate family still has a pair of Pilot 4X4 on my recommendation.
Bottom line is as a former marketing person when someone makes a proposal like yours I like to see the rational behind it & why it is a good idea.
Of course when the sole rational is it would be cool the thread tends to go down hill into name calling instead of civil discourse .
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 04-04-2014 at 11:28 AM.
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cp3117 (04-04-2014)
04-04-2014, 12:13 PM
#129
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Actually, it's been explained how to how a "halo" high performance TLX will help Acura. It's about boasting the brand image in the long run, drawing customers into the showroom, and increase the chance of them buying other more affordable TLX trims.
All the top dogs do this -> M, AMG, S, RS, and even Lexus and Cadillac have came out with F and V respectively.
What does Acura have? Nothing. They used to have Type S, which was great, but still no match against the aforementioned performance labels. That's ONE of the reasons Acura is not able to sell any sedans above the $50k mark.
Honda needs to invest into Acura before Acura can get the brand recognition like the other brands. You know, this halo TLX doesn't have to be turbocharged. If so desired, Acura can also slap that eSH-AWD system from the RLX and that would make the TLX a great performance car with excellent handling and great fuel efficiency. That would fit the "smart luxury" image if Acura can market it well.
You mentioned the likes of Chevy SS, SHO, and Charger SRT. The thing is, those cars are around the 4000lb mark and are much larger vehicle. They compete in a different segment. I mean, for most people. they don't really cross shop a Mustang GT and 435i together.
All the top dogs do this -> M, AMG, S, RS, and even Lexus and Cadillac have came out with F and V respectively.
What does Acura have? Nothing. They used to have Type S, which was great, but still no match against the aforementioned performance labels. That's ONE of the reasons Acura is not able to sell any sedans above the $50k mark.
Honda needs to invest into Acura before Acura can get the brand recognition like the other brands. You know, this halo TLX doesn't have to be turbocharged. If so desired, Acura can also slap that eSH-AWD system from the RLX and that would make the TLX a great performance car with excellent handling and great fuel efficiency. That would fit the "smart luxury" image if Acura can market it well.
You mentioned the likes of Chevy SS, SHO, and Charger SRT. The thing is, those cars are around the 4000lb mark and are much larger vehicle. They compete in a different segment. I mean, for most people. they don't really cross shop a Mustang GT and 435i together.
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rockyfeller (04-10-2014)
04-04-2014, 12:37 PM
#130
Interesting how the "T" word pops out when someone challenges a persons pet theory that they can't adequately defend. Don't rebut the critisium in detail just attack the individual instead.
Not sure what your 45 years in Europe has to do with anything but I lived in England for 8 years & ran a company that provided cars to its lower through senior managers. List ran from BMW 318 & equivalent to Jaguar Sovereign & equivalent. I drove a Jag but all the rest of senior management drove MB “S”
If anything people there got into much more of a hissy fit over what cars were available on their job grade list then ever happens on these boards. The fights over what status car you drove home to the neighborhood was unreal.
Actually what I would say & what I did say earlier in the thread is if they had a TLX prototype looking car with 400hp they would sell at $50K where the typical TL owner has a shot of being able to afford it.
Typical owner in the example is where the TL is their most expensive new car purchase @ $36K & not the second or third car in a family. The SHAWD Advance is the top of the line & optioned out has a selling price of $42K & it does not sell in any great numbers compared to the base car.
Acura cannot price out it base because it has no track record with conquest sales against cars with a base buying population $7-10K more expensive to start out with & already running up to $70K (optioned 435M Convertible) & selling cars at that price.
The thing is ignoring all the development costs nobody has explained exactly where the customers for this car will come from & why they will come.
Finally no hate for Acura drove my TL for about 6 years & would recommend the car to anyone who asked about it. My immediate family still has a pair of Pilot 4X4 on my recommendation.
Bottom line is as a former marketing person when someone makes a proposal like yours I like to see the rational behind it & why it is a good idea.
Of course when the sole rational is it would be cool the thread tends to go down hill into name calling instead of civil discourse .
Not sure what your 45 years in Europe has to do with anything but I lived in England for 8 years & ran a company that provided cars to its lower through senior managers. List ran from BMW 318 & equivalent to Jaguar Sovereign & equivalent. I drove a Jag but all the rest of senior management drove MB “S”
If anything people there got into much more of a hissy fit over what cars were available on their job grade list then ever happens on these boards. The fights over what status car you drove home to the neighborhood was unreal.
Actually what I would say & what I did say earlier in the thread is if they had a TLX prototype looking car with 400hp they would sell at $50K where the typical TL owner has a shot of being able to afford it.
Typical owner in the example is where the TL is their most expensive new car purchase @ $36K & not the second or third car in a family. The SHAWD Advance is the top of the line & optioned out has a selling price of $42K & it does not sell in any great numbers compared to the base car.
Acura cannot price out it base because it has no track record with conquest sales against cars with a base buying population $7-10K more expensive to start out with & already running up to $70K (optioned 435M Convertible) & selling cars at that price.
The thing is ignoring all the development costs nobody has explained exactly where the customers for this car will come from & why they will come.
Finally no hate for Acura drove my TL for about 6 years & would recommend the car to anyone who asked about it. My immediate family still has a pair of Pilot 4X4 on my recommendation.
Bottom line is as a former marketing person when someone makes a proposal like yours I like to see the rational behind it & why it is a good idea.
Of course when the sole rational is it would be cool the thread tends to go down hill into name calling instead of civil discourse .
Yes I do believe you are not objective. So in case not being objective over and over again, the word Troll comes to mind as an expression used commonly in forum threads.
The comment about me living in Europe for 45 years is about my language barrier, my native language is Dutch/Flemish and as second French and then German.
My English was very limited when I moved to the US and I’m still learning, that’s why I apologize for any inconsistencies in grammatical spelling.
Another reason of you not being unbiased in this debate comes to mind, why do you have so little support in this thread? You might think of yourself that you’re a smart man, that doesn’t mean the majority on this board is dumb.
You like statistics, well statistical right now in this thread you are in the minority by a large margin.
I think a lot of the members here care less how many cars and which ones you have and have driven, why do you bring this up multiple times?, its besides the point.
BMW, Porsche, Mercedes Benz and many others are fine cars. Believe me others here on this board have owned them or still own them without boosting about them.
So Kevin; this is my civilized way of expressing myself, we are never to old to learn, don't you think?
04-04-2014, 12:42 PM
#131
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Raw horsepower does not necessarily drive the buying decision.
Acura has a halo car the NSX just like Chevy has the Corvette, Dodge the Viper & Ford the Shelby's. These brands don't need halo cars down below just solid performance cars that are priced within reach of the normal consumer for the brand.
Common denominator for the halo cars is performance image going back over the decades. The NSX also has that performance rep going back decades. Why does Acura need a $57K TLX which is well out of reach of its basic $36K customer?
04-04-2014, 12:48 PM
#132
Actually like the #128 post. Only thing I would re-emphasize is that, while they would love to see it, the car may need not sell all that well or be exclusively for Acura or TL customers. That's a car that could further help bring people back to the brand, maybe not in the direct amount of sales but people talking about Acura and that new model. A product that finally goes toe to toe in a more recognized fashion. TL SH 6MT did but that didn't catch on and few drive manuals and the RLX hybrid, great car, but has a lot of challenges for it's market.
They have the ILX which has that old Integra effect, we'll see how the hybrid RLX ultimately does, NSX is coming and then something like this car to further shake things up as they need to do something differently among the sedans that can be noticed. I don't know if the hybrid is it or how well embraced they generally are at that range or even the NSX because we have heard about this car and seen prototypes so long and it's not even out yet, a lot of the hype will have settled down or already been spent when it finally does arrive.
However $57k is as hypothetical as the car itself but if the TLX advance tops at $50k, $7k, while well justified, may be a little too big a jump to attract top of the line TL buyers. I think I agree that for the sake of where the brand is at in terms of price and to not distance the high end TL customer base, lower would help, even though in terms of finance and leasing structures, incentives and discounts, there is not a huge difference but closer to $50k for the sticker shock effect is probably more appropriate. I can see this car at $53k-$55k, discounted to around an average of $50k.
As far as the thread, I agree it's fun and thought provoking discussion both of which I enjoy. They are just cars and hypothetical ones even, no sense for anyone getting all worked up over. It's cool to see all the different internet personalities, their take on things and also how they got there, little relevance of whether anyone agrees or disagrees, that's just life.
They have the ILX which has that old Integra effect, we'll see how the hybrid RLX ultimately does, NSX is coming and then something like this car to further shake things up as they need to do something differently among the sedans that can be noticed. I don't know if the hybrid is it or how well embraced they generally are at that range or even the NSX because we have heard about this car and seen prototypes so long and it's not even out yet, a lot of the hype will have settled down or already been spent when it finally does arrive.
However $57k is as hypothetical as the car itself but if the TLX advance tops at $50k, $7k, while well justified, may be a little too big a jump to attract top of the line TL buyers. I think I agree that for the sake of where the brand is at in terms of price and to not distance the high end TL customer base, lower would help, even though in terms of finance and leasing structures, incentives and discounts, there is not a huge difference but closer to $50k for the sticker shock effect is probably more appropriate. I can see this car at $53k-$55k, discounted to around an average of $50k.
As far as the thread, I agree it's fun and thought provoking discussion both of which I enjoy. They are just cars and hypothetical ones even, no sense for anyone getting all worked up over. It's cool to see all the different internet personalities, their take on things and also how they got there, little relevance of whether anyone agrees or disagrees, that's just life.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 04-04-2014 at 12:52 PM.
04-04-2014, 01:12 PM
#133
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I especially appreciate winstrolvtec who is always right there to write novels in defense of the Acura brand regardless of the subject matter.
His somewhat longist replies gave me a lot of time to enjoy the forum as opposed to watching the paint dry on my project car. Manny thanks.
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cp3117 (04-04-2014)
04-04-2014, 05:09 PM
#134
Kevin,
Yes I do believe you are not objective. So in case not being objective over and over again, the word Troll comes to mind as an expression used commonly in forum threads.
You like statistics, well statistical right now in this thread you are in the minority by a large margin
Yes I do believe you are not objective. So in case not being objective over and over again, the word Troll comes to mind as an expression used commonly in forum threads.
You like statistics, well statistical right now in this thread you are in the minority by a large margin
"Bear" has been a respected member here for many years with his experience in Racing, Car Building and Marketing. I know for a fact with you only being a member here for not even two months and you're already calling respected members here "Trolls", myself and many others have already lost a lot of respect for you.
You created a hypothetical thread and in turn you're going to get hypothetical answers. "Bear" has made some very valid points just like some others have here and if you've been following Honda/Acura's direction for the past decade you could see how valid some of his points are.
As already stated by Bear-Av, just because you cant rebut some of what he has suggested or stated doesn't mean he or anyone else is a Troll.
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04-04-2014, 05:51 PM
#135
You'll Never Walk Alone
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They were mentioned to demonstrate you can have a 4 door 400+ horsepower car for under $50K no more no less. The Mustang was listed to demonstrate you can have 400hp (actually 420hp) for under $34K.
Raw horsepower does not necessarily drive the buying decision.
Acura has a halo car the NSX just like Chevy has the Corvette, Dodge the Viper & Ford the Shelby's. These brands don't need halo cars down below just solid performance cars that are priced within reach of the normal consumer for the brand.
Common denominator for the halo cars is performance image going back over the decades. The NSX also has that performance rep going back decades. Why does Acura need a $57K TLX which is well out of reach of its basic $36K customer?
Raw horsepower does not necessarily drive the buying decision.
Acura has a halo car the NSX just like Chevy has the Corvette, Dodge the Viper & Ford the Shelby's. These brands don't need halo cars down below just solid performance cars that are priced within reach of the normal consumer for the brand.
Common denominator for the halo cars is performance image going back over the decades. The NSX also has that performance rep going back decades. Why does Acura need a $57K TLX which is well out of reach of its basic $36K customer?
"You mentioned the likes of Chevy SS, SHO, and Charger SRT. The thing is, those cars are around the 4000lb mark and are much larger vehicle. They compete in a different segment. I mean, for most people. they don't really cross shop a Mustang GT and 435i together."
This halo TLX that is being talked about here has the power and luxury level to compete with the likes of M3, AMG C63, IS F, etc. The same can't really be said with the Taurus SHO, Chevy SS, or Dodge Charger.
Sure, the NSX is THE halo car for Acura. But we are talking about a car that will be north of $120k. Not many people have the money to afford something like that.
How about this. Why does Audi make the S4/RS4 when there's the R8 as the halo car? Why does MB make C63AMG when there's the SLS AMG? Why does Lexus build the IS F when there's the LFA? Since these companies already have their own halo cars, why do these brands build $70k versions of their $45k cars?
04-04-2014, 07:31 PM
#136
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Right, but then you seem to have missed the other part of my post where I said the following,
"You mentioned the likes of Chevy SS, SHO, and Charger SRT. The thing is, those cars are around the 4000lb mark and are much larger vehicle. They compete in a different segment.
"You mentioned the likes of Chevy SS, SHO, and Charger SRT. The thing is, those cars are around the 4000lb mark and are much larger vehicle. They compete in a different segment.
TL SH-AWD w/ Tech Pkg 3982 lb vs Chevy SS 3975 lbs
How about this. Why does Audi make the S4/RS4 when there's the R8 as the halo car? Why does MB make C63AMG when there's the SLS AMG? Why does Lexus build the IS F when there's the LFA? Since these companies already have their own halo cars, why do these brands build $70k versions of their $45k cars?
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 04-04-2014 at 07:43 PM.
04-04-2014, 08:17 PM
#137
"Myloveforcars".....I think you maybe surprised how much in the minority you maybe here.
"Bear" has been a respected member here for many years with his experience in Racing, Car Building and Marketing. I know for a fact with you only being a member here for not even two months and you're already calling respected members here "Trolls", myself and many others have already lost a lot of respect for you.
You created a hypothetical thread and in turn you're going to get hypothetical answers. "Bear" has made some very valid points just like some others have here and if you've been following Honda/Acura's direction for the past decade you could see how valid some of his points are.
As already stated by Bear-Av, just because you cant rebut some of what he has suggested or stated doesn't mean he or anyone else is a Troll.
"Bear" has been a respected member here for many years with his experience in Racing, Car Building and Marketing. I know for a fact with you only being a member here for not even two months and you're already calling respected members here "Trolls", myself and many others have already lost a lot of respect for you.
You created a hypothetical thread and in turn you're going to get hypothetical answers. "Bear" has made some very valid points just like some others have here and if you've been following Honda/Acura's direction for the past decade you could see how valid some of his points are.
As already stated by Bear-Av, just because you cant rebut some of what he has suggested or stated doesn't mean he or anyone else is a Troll.
Subject racing, yes I could for sure talk a bit about that, hence this is beside the point.
Your other point, how long someone is posting on this board is irrelevant; it’s about the quality of the threads and posts, debate etc. not the amount of years you joined a forum.
You are stating I can't rebut, that's all I have done with Mr. kevin is rebut him. Not without any support, don't you think. I can only agree on valid points.
If the word Troll shocked you, I did not want to hurt anybody’s feelings with this ugly common forum word. In case someone replies only for the sake of argument, plus making it look over and over that Acura and the TL/TLX cars are inferior, excuse my French then (Trolling is the word).
Like you so eloquently stated losing respect; most likely the members that like there TL's lost a lot of respect as well, putting up with the bashing in countless posts.
And Sir don't lecture me from behind your keyboard, I believe Kevin is old and wise enough to bring his points across without needing you.
I believe the objective of forum members is to try to enhance each others knowledge and share valuable information.
We are never to old to learn, don't you think?
Have a great weekend and drive safe
04-04-2014, 08:26 PM
#138
TL SH-AWD w/ Tech Pkg 3982 lb vs Chevy SS 3975 lbs
Because they are all multi-line performance car manufactures unlike Acura with the one 4 door car fits all product line. Each of their performance cars fits within its & is an extension of its own specific product line. M3/4 - M5/6 etc. They are not halo cars but regular production cars at the top of their line like the TL SHAWD Advance. The halo cars are the $120K & up plus versions
Because they are all multi-line performance car manufactures unlike Acura with the one 4 door car fits all product line. Each of their performance cars fits within its & is an extension of its own specific product line. M3/4 - M5/6 etc. They are not halo cars but regular production cars at the top of their line like the TL SHAWD Advance. The halo cars are the $120K & up plus versions
04-04-2014, 09:53 PM
#139
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Hmm, Interesting Discussion
I Dont Think We Have To Worry About Acura DisappearingIf The Tlx Is A Bust. Pretty Sure The MDX/RDX Are Carrying The Company.
Since Most Of Us On This Forum Agree We Are Acura Ownwrs Based On Bang For The Buck IwWould Have To Imagine A 57K TL Would Have To Offer A LOT FoR Us To Pony Up The Scratch.
I Dont Think We Have To Worry About Acura DisappearingIf The Tlx Is A Bust. Pretty Sure The MDX/RDX Are Carrying The Company.
Since Most Of Us On This Forum Agree We Are Acura Ownwrs Based On Bang For The Buck IwWould Have To Imagine A 57K TL Would Have To Offer A LOT FoR Us To Pony Up The Scratch.
04-04-2014, 10:28 PM
#140
Hmm, Interesting Discussion
I Dont Think We Have To Worry About Acura DisappearingIf The Tlx Is A Bust. Pretty Sure The MDX/RDX Are Carrying The Company.
Since Most Of Us On This Forum Agree We Are Acura Ownwrs Based On Bang For The Buck IwWould Have To Imagine A 57K TL Would Have To Offer A LOT FoR Us To Pony Up The Scratch.
I Dont Think We Have To Worry About Acura DisappearingIf The Tlx Is A Bust. Pretty Sure The MDX/RDX Are Carrying The Company.
Since Most Of Us On This Forum Agree We Are Acura Ownwrs Based On Bang For The Buck IwWould Have To Imagine A 57K TL Would Have To Offer A LOT FoR Us To Pony Up The Scratch.
04-04-2014, 11:58 PM
#141
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The new TLX will sell much better than the outgoing model without adding an over priced white elephant that is of no interest to over 90%+ of the current customer base.
The very same customers base that has keep the average TL selling price down at $36K by not stepping up & buying the top end SHAWD versions in any significant numbers.
The new TLX is more attractive & more feature rich than the 4G. Its too bad it appears that they backed down from what they showed in the prototype.
IMHO had they delivered the prototype as the production car it would be “let the good times roll” with 3G sales numbers all over again. Once again the marketing group looks to have shot themselves in the head.
But hey, maybe they will surprise us & the prototype is the real deal. As is, if the “white car” from the pictures is production, they will most likely split the difference between 3G & 4G sales numbers with the new car. Not a bad recovery, but it could have been much better.
BTW I must have missed any substantive rebuttal from you. All I see is when you have no answer you quickly go & hide behind the new magic word hypothetical which means you can say anything you want regardless how off the wall in might be & expect to see it accepted as having validity.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 04-05-2014 at 12:09 AM.
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rockyfeller (04-10-2014)
04-05-2014, 01:50 AM
#142
Racer
Not worried at all that Acura will disappear, you are right the hypothetical configuration offers a lot specifically for the enthusiast. In case the TLX V6 SH-AWD will be priced at 50K as assumed as well I suppose 57K is not excessive for this hypothetical configuration.
Acura does rank high in reliability ratings from JD Powers, Consumer Reports, and possibly others.
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mylove4cars (04-05-2014)
04-05-2014, 02:22 AM
#143
BTW I must have missed any substantive rebuttal from you. All I see is when you have no answer you quickly go & hide behind the new magic word hypothetical which means you can say anything you want regardless how off the wall in might be & expect to see it accepted as having validity.
How can you expect a substantial rebuttal from me, you have not provided any substance at all.
In a nutshell; all you are saying over and over again is, it would be a bad idea in case Acura would develop a 57K TLX V6 Twin Turbo SH-AWD fully loaded.
Talking about substance!
04-05-2014, 02:35 AM
#144
Because they are all multi-line performance car manufactures unlike Acura with the one 4 door car fits all product line. Each of their performance cars fits within its & is an extension of its own specific product line. M3/4 - M5/6 etc. They are not halo cars but regular production cars at the top of their line like the TL SHAWD Advance. The halo cars are the $120K & up plus versions
That isn't changing anything, we may question their decision making in the use of the particular drivetrain (maybe their sales but it doesn't hurt Audi's perception) but that's different than the platform not allowing for this version or only the RLX is supposed to be the next progression of the line or something like that. Last I checked they are different cars and can do different things as has been with last few generations anyway.
Based on what we see in the markets, sales are not the single driving factor as it relates to the so called tier status of luxury brands, it's typically price and perception (a halo car or two helps) that dictate that as well as multi-line products, I agree, but that doesn't mean you need different platforms for each line to achieve that. There is a key difference. Times are a changing, even MB is switching to 4 platforms for their product line, plus one dedicated for the G Class SUV, in what used to be 9 in total.
Now, one for FWD, RWD, AWD, and sports cars. So the C will share with the S, $35k+ will accommodate $90k+. Even BMW wants only two platforms and are planning it right now, couple years away. Same thing, 3 series will accommodate the 7. Not much different than Accord to RLX, maybe worse. Now we get to say that the 7 series uses the 3 series platform. As we know the C and 3 have been trying to attract lower markets with new cheaper decontented trims and getting pretty mainstream and economy car like, kind of like an Accord.
However, because most here are not really all that biased or defensive against Honda/Acura but just very fair to them, we know that none of that necessarily takes away from the finished product, as usually suggested. It doesn't matter or necessarily change anything, nor should it for Acura and if that's the case, as it likely will be, it's a smart move and they will still charge more money anyway.
I can't wait until this officially happens in the coming months with the new S and C because the next set of arguments will be, MB (and eventually BMW) can do it but Acura can't, just watch. Or that they are genius for doing it but Honda/Acura still dumb as always.
Furthermore, MB wants to cut that rate down to two platforms from the four by 2015, so there is an ever growing trend to streamline and modulate the next generation of platforms for auto-making, and for much of the same reason Honda/Acura already does that. They say that savings are huge and can actually increase variation, no sh*t. Not to toot my own horn or anything like that but kind of called it in another thread, however I had no idea it was happening so soon.
As far as the other cars mentioned relating to the hypothetical TLX, it would still be a more premium product and likely more well rounded a performance vehicle as well as vehicle in general. Doesn't appeal to everyone but still worth mentioning and not much different than a Mustang vs a 4 series, just the same.
And if they can afford to bring out the very unique ZDX which has almost zero market which again is based on the last MDX platform, they can make this TLX happen. Instead of making the new car from the use of what they have, they would have the car already but need the upgraded engine. Not a whole lot different, sounds like it's actually less and cheaper to do in comparison.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 04-05-2014 at 02:48 AM.
04-05-2014, 03:29 AM
#145
Actually, none of the current Ferrari or Lamborghini models use struts. Porsche uses double-wishbones in their high end cars like the 959, Carrera GT, 918 Spyder, and late-model GT2/GT3. The TL is not anywhere near those though, it and all other Acuras are mediocre polished-up appliances. Pretty much the only thing it has going for it in the current market is the fact it's not engineered to be disposable.
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BEAR-AvHistory (04-05-2014)
04-05-2014, 11:10 AM
#146
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Why would they want to stick their hand back into the fire?
04-05-2014, 11:41 AM
#147
Racer
Actually, none of the current Ferrari or Lamborghini models use struts. Porsche uses double-wishbones in their high end cars like the 959, Carrera GT, 918 Spyder, and late-model GT2/GT3. The TL is not anywhere near those though, it and all other Acuras are mediocre polished-up appliances. Pretty much the only thing it has going for it in the current market is the fact it's not engineered to be disposable.
What do you think of the Tesla, besides its max torque almost instantly made available?
Last edited by internalaudit; 04-05-2014 at 11:52 AM.
04-05-2014, 12:33 PM
#148
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Besides Porsche's higher-end models, what other makes/models would you consider as non-appliances? Would love to know if my household will ever be able to afford those non-appliance vehicles and how much the most inexpensive one is. Although there is very little job security and we've got some loans and a big mortgage to pay down, our household makes about $160k USD before taxes.
What do you think of the Tesla, besides its max torque almost instantly made available?
What do you think of the Tesla, besides its max torque almost instantly made available?
04-05-2014, 12:44 PM
#149
Besides Porsche's higher-end models, what other makes/models would you consider as non-appliances? Would love to know if my household will ever be able to afford those non-appliance vehicles and how much the most inexpensive one is.
What do you think of the Tesla, besides its max torque almost instantly made available?
What do you think of the Tesla, besides its max torque almost instantly made available?
Last edited by MTEAZY; 04-05-2014 at 12:50 PM.
04-05-2014, 12:47 PM
#150
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This is Business Week data. Its not family income but rather individual income & a few years old. Could not find Acura in the base.
Audi
Average Age of Owner: 49
Median Income: $183,601
4-Year College Degree: 31.66%
Mercedes-Benz
Average Age of Owner: 53
Median Income: $174,558
4-Year College Degree: 27.74%
BMW
Average Age of Owner: 49
Median Income: $169,289
4-Year College Degree: 29.07%
Lexus
Average Age of Owner: 56
Median Income: $141,745
4-Year College Degree: 26.45%
Cadillac
Average Age of Owner: 62
Median Income: $129,656
4-Year College Degree: 21.90%
Lincoln
Average Age of Owner: 62
Median Income: $113,782
4-Year College Degree: 25.47%
BTW If Acura wants to learn how to move upscale they need to watch Hunyadi/Kia. I would guess in two car cycles or so they will be well beyond Honda. IIRC the are currently equal to or close ahead/behind Honda now in sales & are pushing improvements in their RWD V8 platform very quickly.
Audi
Average Age of Owner: 49
Median Income: $183,601
4-Year College Degree: 31.66%
Mercedes-Benz
Average Age of Owner: 53
Median Income: $174,558
4-Year College Degree: 27.74%
BMW
Average Age of Owner: 49
Median Income: $169,289
4-Year College Degree: 29.07%
Lexus
Average Age of Owner: 56
Median Income: $141,745
4-Year College Degree: 26.45%
Cadillac
Average Age of Owner: 62
Median Income: $129,656
4-Year College Degree: 21.90%
Lincoln
Average Age of Owner: 62
Median Income: $113,782
4-Year College Degree: 25.47%
BTW If Acura wants to learn how to move upscale they need to watch Hunyadi/Kia. I would guess in two car cycles or so they will be well beyond Honda. IIRC the are currently equal to or close ahead/behind Honda now in sales & are pushing improvements in their RWD V8 platform very quickly.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 04-05-2014 at 12:52 PM.
04-05-2014, 01:00 PM
#151
This is Business Week data. Its not family income but rather individual income & a few years old. Could not find Acura in the base.
Audi
Average Age of Owner: 49
Median Income: $183,601
4-Year College Degree: 31.66%
Mercedes-Benz
Average Age of Owner: 53
Median Income: $174,558
4-Year College Degree: 27.74%
BMW
Average Age of Owner: 49
Median Income: $169,289
4-Year College Degree: 29.07%
Lexus
Average Age of Owner: 56
Median Income: $141,745
4-Year College Degree: 26.45%
Cadillac
Average Age of Owner: 62
Median Income: $129,656
4-Year College Degree: 21.90%
Lincoln
Average Age of Owner: 62
Median Income: $113,782
4-Year College Degree: 25.47%
Audi
Average Age of Owner: 49
Median Income: $183,601
4-Year College Degree: 31.66%
Mercedes-Benz
Average Age of Owner: 53
Median Income: $174,558
4-Year College Degree: 27.74%
BMW
Average Age of Owner: 49
Median Income: $169,289
4-Year College Degree: 29.07%
Lexus
Average Age of Owner: 56
Median Income: $141,745
4-Year College Degree: 26.45%
Cadillac
Average Age of Owner: 62
Median Income: $129,656
4-Year College Degree: 21.90%
Lincoln
Average Age of Owner: 62
Median Income: $113,782
4-Year College Degree: 25.47%
04-05-2014, 01:23 PM
#152
Racer
This is Business Week data. Its not family income but rather individual income & a few years old. Could not find Acura in the base.
Audi
Average Age of Owner: 49
Median Income: $183,601
4-Year College Degree: 31.66%
Mercedes-Benz
Average Age of Owner: 53
Median Income: $174,558
4-Year College Degree: 27.74%
BMW
Average Age of Owner: 49
Median Income: $169,289
4-Year College Degree: 29.07%
Lexus
Average Age of Owner: 56
Median Income: $141,745
4-Year College Degree: 26.45%
Cadillac
Average Age of Owner: 62
Median Income: $129,656
4-Year College Degree: 21.90%
Lincoln
Average Age of Owner: 62
Median Income: $113,782
4-Year College Degree: 25.47%
BTW If Acura wants to learn how to move upscale they need to watch Hunyadi/Kia. I would guess in two car cycles or so they will be well beyond Honda. IIRC the are currently equal to or close ahead/behind Honda now in sales & are pushing improvements in their RWD V8 platform very quickly.
Audi
Average Age of Owner: 49
Median Income: $183,601
4-Year College Degree: 31.66%
Mercedes-Benz
Average Age of Owner: 53
Median Income: $174,558
4-Year College Degree: 27.74%
BMW
Average Age of Owner: 49
Median Income: $169,289
4-Year College Degree: 29.07%
Lexus
Average Age of Owner: 56
Median Income: $141,745
4-Year College Degree: 26.45%
Cadillac
Average Age of Owner: 62
Median Income: $129,656
4-Year College Degree: 21.90%
Lincoln
Average Age of Owner: 62
Median Income: $113,782
4-Year College Degree: 25.47%
BTW If Acura wants to learn how to move upscale they need to watch Hunyadi/Kia. I would guess in two car cycles or so they will be well beyond Honda. IIRC the are currently equal to or close ahead/behind Honda now in sales & are pushing improvements in their RWD V8 platform very quickly.
This may be a good guide but I don't think we can pigeon hole people just because they make a certain income level.
04-05-2014, 01:26 PM
#153
Racer
I'm not trying to be a snob here. When look at and sit in a new 3-series, I feel like the car is not engineered to last much longer past warranty. It feels trendy, and disposable. But they have a good package of baseline performance, tunability, and a solid RWD platform. Honda continually refuses to pour R&D money into Acura and as a result the cars are compromised, dated, and don't sell very well. Yeah the quality is not bad, but nothing about Acuras current cars feels truly special, or as if a sizable amount of money was invested. The "smart luxury" theme is bullshit and has caused them to move backwards. They are losing ground fast, the ILX appears to be more poorly engineered than a 2015 WRX. I don't doubt the capability of their engineers but their management is absolutely hell-bent on increasing profits with minuscule investment.
04-05-2014, 02:23 PM
#154
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CAPT. Obvious says The only thing certain is as the price of cars go up the required incomes also go up.
There is a lot that raw numbers don’t show.How many cars are new or almost new in the family. Is the TL the prime car or the 3rd/4th car down the line. Where do you live because what might be a good salary in Tupelo Miss will not let you live in NYC & it goes on & on. Thing is to get a good flavor for single earner incomes just scan the “what do you do for a living list” on the site & the average price actually paid for the cars. Then try to figure out if there is sufficient potential in the customer base to support what ever price you are looking to move product at.
Prior success or failure at moving product at or near the proposed pricing is also a big indicator as to your have a successful launch or getting your butt handed to you.
My best estimate would be to see what the potential viability of a HP TLX is to watch the RLX SHAWD. Its being heavily promoted as a performance car in all the magazines with inside cover adds to Acura is giving it its best shot.
Don't know what $160K would buy but about 20% of the working population make over $100K so $100K is not what it once was. $60K car no money down 3% or so would be about $1200 a month @ 60 months.
$160000 + $6K take home? $4800 a month for everything else? Hondas best deal right now is $500 a month for a $55K MDX lease & $935 @ 0.9 for a buy. A $60K buy would be just over $1000 a month at the subsidized rate.
An average TL currently would go for about $600 a month no money down 60 month buy.
There is a lot that raw numbers don’t show.How many cars are new or almost new in the family. Is the TL the prime car or the 3rd/4th car down the line. Where do you live because what might be a good salary in Tupelo Miss will not let you live in NYC & it goes on & on. Thing is to get a good flavor for single earner incomes just scan the “what do you do for a living list” on the site & the average price actually paid for the cars. Then try to figure out if there is sufficient potential in the customer base to support what ever price you are looking to move product at.
Prior success or failure at moving product at or near the proposed pricing is also a big indicator as to your have a successful launch or getting your butt handed to you.
My best estimate would be to see what the potential viability of a HP TLX is to watch the RLX SHAWD. Its being heavily promoted as a performance car in all the magazines with inside cover adds to Acura is giving it its best shot.
Don't know what $160K would buy but about 20% of the working population make over $100K so $100K is not what it once was. $60K car no money down 3% or so would be about $1200 a month @ 60 months.
$160000 + $6K take home? $4800 a month for everything else? Hondas best deal right now is $500 a month for a $55K MDX lease & $935 @ 0.9 for a buy. A $60K buy would be just over $1000 a month at the subsidized rate.
An average TL currently would go for about $600 a month no money down 60 month buy.
04-05-2014, 02:58 PM
#155
internalaudit...I don't see anything wrong with people stating their success. It seems that people almost feel ashamed or guilty of stating their income or their wealth. As long as its not done to belittle people, I think people should be proud of their accomplishment and their hard earned success.
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BEAR-AvHistory (04-05-2014)
04-05-2014, 03:04 PM
#156
I'm sure you're not trolling. Talking about trolling; its pathetic reading some of these posts and the nonsense replied.
(Acura's are mediocre polished-up appliances) Another Troll excuse my French.
Try that on the BMW, Audi forums; most likely people over there are a bit more spirited, they don't put-up with the bashing; you have a flame-war going before you know.
Unfortunately for other members, these types of individuals only preach Gloom & Doom hiding behind a keyboard.
The ones that dislike Acura cars so much; what could be the reason for them to come here?
04-05-2014, 03:21 PM
#157
Racer
BMW and most German auto makers produces high horsepower versions of almost all series to sell the base motor cars. I think Acura should do the same. This would give power hungry drivers (like me) an option to purchase an Acura. Which I would.
Not to mention my Acura dealer sales and service in my state is far better then BMW. For that alone I would switch back if Acura had a TLX with 400+hp.
Not to mention my Acura dealer sales and service in my state is far better then BMW. For that alone I would switch back if Acura had a TLX with 400+hp.
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04-05-2014, 03:47 PM
#158
Also shared with the Honda version & the Pilot. They bagged it after a few seasons because no one bought it. Think they learned any marketing 101 lessons after getting burned big time on the ZDX experiment?
Why would they want to stick their hand back into the fire?
Why would they want to stick their hand back into the fire?
Because you're arguing that the brand can't sell it because they are not perceived as luxury enough and don't have higher line customer bases or attraction but then at the same time argue they can't do the things that are needed in order to get the better recognition and move upscale and offer higher line products. That's circular logic. It's like what came first the chicken or the egg, maybe someone else can make sense of what you're saying, getting tired of trying to.
The ZDX is also a lesson learned that you can achieve the same effect with higher line version of the line and MODEL already being used, you don't need to create an all new product off it. Likewise the development of the hybrid system can serve as a basis for future endeavors, disagree with the choice is fine but that still make sense, as can a higher output V6. Others are taking notes from Honda on how to increase margins and efficiency, you combine that with trying to move upscale and attract a bit more of a performance base to the brand at the same time, you end up with the idea of this kind of hypothetical product.
Hyundai and Kia will eventually run into the same problem Honda/Acura does, if not already. The value equation will hurt their luxury perception, they will hit that wall as well, if not already, and have to do the types of things we talk about to overcome it, as they have already learned and started to do.
Equus, R spec, a $60k Kia is coming out, etc. RWD and V8 are great paths to get there, probably easier, I don't deny it but it's not the only way. Bottom-line, high line versions with higher price tags, effective marketing (helps to have that stuff to market in the first place) and the other things that typically go with it, as well as halo cars, multi-line products (have to start with something, usually can't just make them all) and a few smaller factors in addition like dealer experience, etc, are what get that done.
I'm getting the impression that folks who are against the TLX model in all capacities, just don't want to see Acura do it for whatever reasons.
Not sure what age and median income have to do with anything except that it is a product of what the brands are doing, much of which is described above. Nonetheless, most of these brands have one or two models that don't sell in excess of $60k (usually $40k-$55k) and typically make up 50%, if not more, of the brands sales anyway, which is basically the brand, period. That's the volume, that's where make their money, the top 3 luxury brands in sales in the US (BMW, MB, Lexus) rely on double and triple sales of one or two popular models vs competitors to get that done, tying back to what I already posted above, what do you think allows that to happen?
FWIW, Acura has done a good job of maintaining a balanced spread of sales across it's line, not overly dependent on one or two models and only selling those.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 04-05-2014 at 03:54 PM.
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mylove4cars (04-05-2014)
04-05-2014, 03:57 PM
#159
BMW and most German auto makers produces high horsepower versions of almost all series to sell the base motor cars. I think Acura should do the same. This would give power hungry drivers (like me) an option to purchase an Acura. Which I would.
Not to mention my Acura dealer sales and service in my state is far better then BMW. For that alone I would switch back if Acura had a TLX with 400+hp.
Not to mention my Acura dealer sales and service in my state is far better then BMW. For that alone I would switch back if Acura had a TLX with 400+hp.
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HAWAII-TSX (04-05-2014)
04-05-2014, 04:16 PM
#160
Suzuka Master
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Without the segment leading high margin SUV's Acura would be up for a fire sale.