George Knighton

I don't know if they thought they'd be in a different position by now, but they're certainly not! I think of them the same way.

I wish people could think of how to fit that system into a TLX/Accord sized vehicle, but I don't see how.

People who saw the HART-Hondata 4G TL were very enthusiastic. I don't know what came out of that. I saw them on the track a few times, and then nothing. Both HART and Hondata just seemed to go on to other things.

George Knighton

I hope you consider any change very carefully. Take your time with it.

I'm saying that because I used to have a TL 6-6 like you, for 86000 miles, and to be honest I believe the 4G TL 6-6 SH-AWD is one of the very best all around vehicles that Honda have ever produced.

I'm sure we'd both have lists of things we'd want to change, but I'd still say it's right up there with my '00 ITR #110 as one of the best all around cars they've ever put on the American road.

Be careful picking something else too quickly!

:-)

fsttyms1

Well that is what Acura has been doing yet no one is out of a job! Their design language over the past 8+ years has shown a sharp loss in sales yet they still keep the same folks on board. Maybe they should listen to Bear....

internalaudit

And sell out to BMW or Porsche?

Bear mentions many time that Acura has lost its direction. He's raised a few good points but most of the time, he just cites superior cars for racing and tracking that are $20k if not more.

I'd love to know what strategy he envisions for the Acura division.

BEAR-AvHistory

Go back to their roots when they were selling 60K+ TL's a year. Good looks (prototype), good performance (Hybrid), low pricing for the top end package ($50-52K). NSX as the performance car like the GT-R, ZR-1 etc.

Acura built an excellent street rep with the 3G then flushed it down the toilet with the 4G so they are at ground zero again. You are not going to win customers by doubling down on your mistakes & charging $57K for them.

They threw up their lungs & lost 50% of their sales trying to play to Tier 1 buyers. How was that being loyal to its base & why should they try it again?

Not being evil but last night Top Gear was doing a best of series. Not sure what year it was but it was the last show of the season. Jeremy Clarkston said they had blown their budget so they were going to run old reviews & comment on them. One of the cars was the NSX-R. Stig flogged it around the track & it was a great set of laps. Clarkston then commented on how few NSX cars you see on the street because its really a good ride. The little guy Hammond commented that they only sold 23 in Briton that year. Clarkston’s comment was “what do you expect who is going to pay 70K quid for a Honda?”

That in nutshell is the issue Acura has.

fsttyms1

Well if there isnt a product one company makes then YES, find a different manufacturer. Why would you buy something you dont care for. Acura has lost their direction, they themselves have said so. Most of us do NOT hate the brand, we hate the fact they keep making the same mistake over and over saying they are fixing it but arent.

As for a strategy for them, Design an APPEALING car, Options, Marketing, Price it right. They dont have the same brand image as BMW to ask BMW prices. Hyundai has figured it out.

cp3117

The power and how that power is being produced is a major factor though when the OP mentions a imaginary price to his imaginary car.

Honda/Acura haven't produced a car before with this kind of power so development costs are a HUGE factor for a vehicle that sells in low numbers. What upgrades and costs for the upgrades to Brakes, Transmission, SH-AWD, etc etc are going to affect the price. Thermal Management is also a major concern. I know many here think slapping two turbo's on a J Series and calling it a day is a easy solution. The VAG group and BMW are two of the best at this for mass produced vehicles and it takes a lot of R&D to achieve these goals....Can two turbo's fit in the TLX, will all of the ducting and intercoolers etc fit and still prevent heat soak, What will this added weight have for an effect on the rest of the vehicle, etc etc.

I wish the OP's original post would have mentioned what you posted above. If we are to take all of the reality out of the equation then I think everyone's answer here would have been Yes and we could have closed this thread after page one or two. Then again I would love to see any manufacture do this if development costs aren't factored into the equation.

The reality though, is when you start a thread with a imaginary car with an imaginary price, a few here like myself look at it with a realist approach. I cringe when I see a comment like yours above because if someone approached me at work and said "Build X product and sell it at X price but don't look at any of the categories you mentioned above", one of two things would happen...(A) you would be fired or (B) I would be out of Business shortly.

cp3117

.....Lol......I agree and you have my vote.

As you know, respect is earned or lost over time but never demanded or ridiculed out of someone. IMHO, The OP could really use a lesson in Humility. (But Hey, this is the internet after all).

winstrolvtec

As stated or alluded to, I find it odd that the base and potential aftermarket for the TLX has already been determined before it's even out. The 3G went from a lot of support in that area to next to none in the 4G, it could easily change again, just saying we don't know, let's not pre-judge is all.

Also strange to me is the idea that Acura has and will continue to have a problem in the luxury scene because nobody wants to pay $60k-$70k for a Honda while Kia and Hyundai will magically escape this type of largely subjective based and unsupported criticism.

Weird as well is the idea that one of the better approaches for Acura right now is follow through with what they have proposed already with a few tweaks (which includes a flagship sports car that nobody is going to buy for reasons already stated no less) and ironically the only immediate thing that is missing and could raise the ante that much more and in one of the more conservative and financially responsible alternatives (which they have done in the past and many others brands do as well without the problems and criticism) is the hypothetical TLX model, but somehow that will be the straw that breaks the camels back or they need to avoid that at all costs, or it's unnecessary.

Don't disagree that it won't be easy and they are probably better off with the hybrid system all things considered but there were some talks about the packaging not accommodating it and the fact that the turbo engine is already in house.

As far as a large view and general consensus, Acura is not a German beater (exception Audi maybe), brand to brand, but I'm sure many already have bought an Acura product that they thought was and is to them and that's where they need to start and continue to build off of, not trying to win over everybody or all at once or that it's even possible.

I don't know about that design problem though and loss of sales, the 4G TL specifically has had both issues but I don't know how much of that is really supported elsewhere in the brand and more than other brands general criticism of other designs in general. The TL bread and butter car fell about 50% while the brands position in luxury sales ranks was and is largely unchanged and improved with the market in general as other brands did, so that suggests other Acura models picked up sales despite adopting the new language vs other bands falling off because they simply haven't.

So perhaps some are a little defensive or maybe sensitive even but to be fair this is the place for that and it would also appear that some of the criticism goes a bit far or further than it should or needs to, at the same time. I think a lot of it comes down to people wanting to like the brand but they not offering something more personal or suited to them and their quick to point to Hyundai for example because they really don't want that but need the example. Let's be honest, to be here, you need to be a bit biased intentionally or unintentionally but to be here without an Aura and debate owners about the cars and direction of the brand, and the cars they specifically own, etc, you need to be bit of an antagonist even if meant well or with good intentions.

I would simply suggest there is a difference and you could like the brand despite the fact they may not offer a particular product one outside the brand might actually buy. I may be wrong but it seems people really fuss over the part that Acura doesn't make a car for them, why the fuss? Not every brand makes a well equipped and moderately priced mid size entry luxury sedan with a 6MT and torque vectoring AWD for example but I don't let that take away from any other brand or car they offer instead. Go buy the car or brand better suited, problem solved. Shouldn't change the fact about where any car objectively excels or how it competes or how good or bad the brand actually fares, despite liking or agreeing with the specific direction, etc.

mylove4cars

That's right, only certain individuals can do so (the tint windows was for sure an outstanding comment amongst many others) I have observed this scenario on other forums as well, the nay-sayers casting gloom and doom. Nay-sayers don’t want others to succeed (Acura) and for them others have to remain silent. Otherwise they can use a lesson in Humility

No one responded too much on my comment about Nissan. A bunch of BMW lovers troll around this forum. If you tell them that on BMW’s preferred track the Nurburgring they got beaten so bad by the Nissan GT-R ricer which was launched for 67K (no comments), the GT-R is a streetcar beating BMW & AMG race cars. Track times don’t lie. Porches, Ferraris and Lambos, all the BIG boys beaten by an outdated Nissan GT-R?

The rational here is never say never, all the BIG German and Italian brands where laughing, not for long though.

Well, maybe some of you nay-sayers should think about that, Honda is able to do the same from a technical and financial point of view.

The point I agree on, is Acura/Honda willing to go this road; I give them the benefit of the doubt.

I’m not clairvoyant like some of you pretend to be, no offense, facts, look at this thread full of negativity, belittling and ego-tripping; all because a suggestion was made to have a top dog TLX.

BEAR-AvHistory

Why do you have trouble dealing with the truth. Tinted windows is one of the most discussed mods on Acurazine. You have a problem with guys doing cosmetic mods? Guess it does not conform to the super high performance image you are trying to convey.

The thing is the GT-R is a great car & a very nice overall with the track package for $120K. Runs Lightning Laps at VIR almost as quickly as the last generation Corvette ZR-1. Think its #9 on the list. The really interesting thing is in the 7 or 8 years of LL an Acura has never run even though Hyundai & Civic do.

The other interesting thing is earlier versions of the GT-R are ranked back as far as #25 behind the cars you pointed out like AMG etc. Maybe its the cheap one.

Of course Nissan/Datsun has been building nice sport cars since the mid 1960’s. Its called history & legacy. All three of my daughters did high school, collage & early jobs in a 1981 280ZX. It was a turbo convertible that I built for them. Finally gave it to “Make a Wish” about 8 years ago still on the original engine.

BEAR-AvHistory

More fun GT-R stuff. Streets of Willow just had an addition to its fastest laps most have been run by Randy Pobst. He took a new M235 around at #27 within one second of an older GT-R. Guess it was the cheap $67K one again. The list also has two Acura's on it TL-Type S & a NSX. The NSX is #69 & the Type "S" is #70.

mylove4cars

Your quote – quote magic way of turning words and context around does not work with me, neither with some others that have pointed this out to you.

You need to review the Nissan GT-R track times, if you like some help, I will gladly supply them for you and post them for you as well. Let me know.

I have no trouble dealing with the truth; I have trouble dealing with you stating the non-truth.

And Kevin, this thread is not about you and your accomplishments. Do you don't get it how egocentric you sound.

BEAR-AvHistory

Do I care what you think about me, NO. Do I have any issues with the GT-R, NO. Do I think your TLX turbo is worth anything, NO.

Three strikes & you are out.

mylove4cars

Nurburgring, the world number one test track, no matter a Corvette, Porsche or Ferrari here is the action. This is where the track times count getting published world-wide. (Not Streets of Willow)


7:38 - Lexus LFA

7:19.63 - Chevrolet Corvette ZR1

7:25.7 - Ferrari Enzo

7:28.71 - Porsche Carrera

7:24 - Porsche 911 GT2 RS

7:08.69 - Nissan GT-R

Btw. BMW/M5 M3 - MB/AMG is not even on the list or coming close with the above cars.

mylove4cars

- -

BEAR-AvHistory

A sport car is faster around the ring than a M3/M5, I am shocked simply shocked. Just a bit of truth in advertising the fast GT-R is a prototype 2015 NISMO track special at about $152K not $67K.

The much more expensive Porsche 918 is 11 seconds faster so its not the fastest. Still a great feat for the GT-R but am not sure what this has to do with a hot TLX.

You seem to be pushing Godzilla for some reason, its a Nissan not Honda, but if I were to buy a 2 seat car it would be third on my list after the new Z06, Boxer GTS then the GT-R. Have driven all three including my neighbors new Z51 & his 3 year old GT-R he sold for the Vette along with the two Boxers 6MT & PDK back to back at the dealer when my daughter got her car.

The GT-R was very very fast but somewhat primitive. Already have fast primitive in the Cobra. I believe the GT-R would get old quickly in a DD rotation; is more of a weekend car & track day car like the Cobra.

That being said I would get the $120K flavor before the NISMO. Balls out track cars generally suck on the street.

fsttyms1

No one here doesnt want Acura to succeed. No one is a "Hater" You need to get over the fact that not all like the current lineup but still like the brand. I am one, i dont like the current lineup at all BUT i still like and prefer the brand over the others. Im glad you give them the Benefit of the doubt. Those that dont arent "haters" we are just a little more leery of them based on their track record over the past decade. We have seen them say and promise an awful lot and not follow thru.

As for the stupid GT-R comment. The M3/M5 wasnt designed to go up against the GT-R No one is calling it a ricer but you, so you can stop playing that card/word. Yes, the GT-R is a fast car, No one is saying it isnt. As for the " gt-r fastest ever" comment, Yea, for the GT-R (a special version i might add), But the Porsche 918 is still quite a bit faster. All of which have NOTHING to do with the thread, so i dont know why you have gone this direction...The only one ego tripping and full of negativity is you. You simply are mad that some made comments about the brand calling them "haters" and mad that some made comments about your "hypothetical" question. There is NO need to defend the brand and try to make everyone feel the same way you do. We all want them to succeed but dont see them in the same way as others.

And ill play along with your original topic. Id love a TT SH-AWD TLX........ BUT it would have to have more than 380-440 hp for 57k. It would have to be much closer to the 500 mark for that price. I could go out and get a cpo with under 10k miles for well under 57k with more hp, much better tuning ability/options and (to me) a much more desirable car.

draph

I'll throw in my 2 cents. I bought Acura on value. A $57K TLX with ~400hp would not provide enough value for me to buy no matter how good it looks and performs. Charging that price seems to me they would be trying to leverage brand equity they don't have. Acura's problem is their brand = value. Lots of people buy the German brands for the badge. To them, I say congratulations on your financial status that reached the point you can throw money away on nothing (brand image). Sure, you might get a tiny bit nicer materials and stand-alone architectures that aren't derivatives of "lesser" cars, but don't try to tell me it's worth 5 figures more than an equivalent Acura. I say this from experience - I leased a BMW 335 for 3 years - after the "aura" and novelty of the "ultimate driving machine" hype wore off, it just became another car that, when compared to my 2010 TL SH-AWD had some nicer things about it, and some things that couldn't compare to the Acura. My eyes to marketing hype and group think were opened.

So, if Acura were to try to sell a 400hp TLX tt for $57K, I'd probably "step down" to a lesser brand and see if the local Chevy dealer will be selling the next generation SS sedan based upon the ATS/CTS architecture with a 400+ hp C7 Corvette LT1 derived V8 under its hood. If it offers the C7 7MT and still costs less than $50K like the current one, I'm there - because that's what I'd call a sports sedan value.

mylove4cars

Your first paragraph, you know very well that some individuals around this forum are bashing, maybe other posters that have made comments about it are seeing this wrong as well. I agree about their line-up; I don’t like them all neither, I don’t bash them for that though.

As for the stupid GT-R comment; the rationale behind it is easy to understand in case you are not close minded about it. (Not saying that you are) Nissan has been selling cars less expensive then Acura and has a small line-up as well.
The GT-R was designed only for one reason a change in image providing a great marketing tool with a AWD V6 Twin Turbo (Not being a supercar, with supercar looks) positioning the GT-R as a Great GT car. Ironically the GT-R’s sales today are surpassing the Porsche 911 Turbo and Turbo S in the US.

Why would it be so impossible, ridiculous, ludicrous, unreasonable and I don’t know what more for Acura/Honda to go this direction? Even with lesser performance this could be a game changer. That is what my GT-R comment is all about. If you think that’s stupid, fine for me. (So this has something to do with this topic)

Btw. Your comment about the Porsche 918 is stupid $875,000.00 Super Hybrid car not qualified for competition today. The GT-R Nismo you can buy today at a Nissan dealership 149K out the door (this is a streetcar), do you people really don’t want to understand or what?

You are a funny person, I don’t boost about all my cars I have driven in 50 years behind the wheel and when and with which car I raced and how many cats and dogs, careers, accomplishments etc. Like I said before why should I post a list and post pictures and what more, and in every answer in a thread talk about me, me, me and me and you are talking about ego-tripping. Sure I’m the negative one, hilarious, so tell me who is the positive one?
Like on most forums, no difference you will always have the nay-sayers. Nevertheless this forum provides a wealth of knowledge which I like.

This is a debate and I might be a little bit spirited, I wish all success and prosperity and a great TLX to drive in the near future.

BEAR-AvHistory

You know this how? I don't think Nissan had an image problem with performance cars. They have been producing competitive "Z" series sports cars for almost 50 years in the US market, including 6cyl turbos. They have been active in road racing going back to when Paul Newman drove for them.

Its kind of like the ZR-1 is to the base Corvette. The ultimate 370Z. Halo yes, image changer no.

As a pure image change car I would think labeling it an Infinty would have had more impact.

BTW there is also a little tag on their time that says : The record-breaking car was equipped with “track options,” so before you declare a prototype with track options a street car you might want to wait & see what actually comes out the door. Remember how the TLX prototype looked?

winstrolvtec

^Thing is Nissan is Infiniti, for the most part, no really, and not like Honda and Acura level of distinction with some sharing and platforms, etc. Infiniti's are truly re-badges for the different markets, except a few dedicated market models, one or two (maybe 3) SUV's and a few variants. Other than those however, they are the same products labeled Nissan there while some are Nissan and some are Infiniti here. Strange thing though with the new Q50, which wears an Infiniti badge there but is still called a Nissan Skyline. So it seems they are trying but are testing the waters so to speak.

BEAR-AvHistory

^^^^
Acura's flagship RLX is sold in other markets as the Honda Legend while the Civic & ILX are practically the same car. In fact was either R&T or C&D did a side by side comparo & chose the Civic.

mylove4cars

The base Corvette and ZR-1 are much closer to each other they are designed and constructed out of the same concept.

The 370Z and GT-R are two totally different animals in looks and technology, here is why!
ATTESA E-TS.
An acronym for Advanced Total Traction Engineering System for All-terrain with Electronic Torque Split, the ATTESA E-TS all-wheel drive system is not exact a novelty for Nissan or Infiniti. The version, customized for the Nissan GT-R however, is. To put it into perspective, this is the first and so far the only rear transaxle-based all-wheel drive system for a front engine car.

During a standing start, the system sends only 2% of the available torque to the front wheels and 98% to the rear, essentially making the GT-R a rear-wheel drive car. Thanks to the amount of sensors, clutches and UFO technology Nissan has invested in it, front and rear torque split can change in milliseconds to a maximum of 50:50.

Unlike most conventional all-wheel drive systems and given the transmission's transaxle positioning, the GT-R ATTESA E-TS uses two almost parallel driveshaft’s, with a second driveshaft running slightly to the right of the main driveshaft and engine sending power exclusively to the front wheels through an open differential.
The other driveshaft, or better yet, the main one, goes from the engine to the rear-based gearbox, from where it sends power through a limited slip differential to the rear wheels, therefore varying the left/right torque split at the rear axle. Integrated into the double-clutch gearbox there's a transfer case in which, instead of a center differential lays a center wet multi-plate clutch system. Coincidentally (or not), a similar but obviously less advanced system was used by Porsche in the 959 supercar.

If you think the system is mechanically complicated, wait till you hear about the electronics part. Since the GT-R can mechanically vary the left/right torque split just at the rear axle (thanks to the aforementioned active LSD), the ATTESA E-TS system takes care of that also by sporting a computer controlled array of sensors.

This way, when the ABS sensors pick up that one of the front wheels is spinning too fast compared to the other it is automatically braked, thus mimicking a mechanical limited slip differential. Speaking of sensors and computers, the ATTESA E-TS has its own ECU, which uses information gathered from four ABS sensors, a three-axis G sensor, gearbox and engine ECU sensors to control power in real time to each and every wheel, depending on the driving conditions.

Translated into real life performance, this means that the GT-R's all-wheel drive system is pro-active, just like BMW's xDrive. For example, when entering a corner with full braking power, the transmission ECU will perform an action mimicking an engine brake, while with the help of the sensors the ATTESA E-TS ECU will continuously vary the power sent to each wheel up to a 50:50 torque split in real time.

Since all the sensors present on the car are updated thousands of times per second and most of the moving parts of the all-wheel drive system are made out of light materials (for example, the driveshaft’s are from carbon fiber), the ATTESA E-TS is literally a game changer on a car with the GT-R's credentials.


Btw: The time that I posted 7:08.69 - Nissan GT-R Nismo recorded in 2013 is already broken by the 2015 GT-R track available for about 107K in every Nissan dealership.


Lets talk TLX

winstrolvtec

Bear, what do you not get about my response? I wasn't making it into a contest or suggesting anything good or bad about it, it was only about how that relates to the discussion. How did you miss that?

Yes, I know these facts about Honda and Nissan, the Acura RLX is scheduled to go on sale as a Honda Legend like the Infiniti Q50 went on sale as a Nissan Skyline but you guys were talking about the GT-R and it's purpose and said the release and marketing of the GT-R would have made more sense solely as a marketing tool if it was an Infiniti and I suggested why they may not have decided to label it as such and that it doesn't mean that it wasn't used for that purpose as 4cars said. The response was not about Infiniti in of themselves.

Infiniti and Nissan don't really see separate companies or entities necessarily, they see different markets and marketing as others may as well and I don't think there is anything wrong with that, seems like the right way to go because many are moving in the direction. Most luxury brands are streamlining to 2 platforms along the product lines, those who typically aimed higher are reaching down market including mainstream and economy products and luxury is largely an arbitrary quality made up by pricing, pedigree, marketing and product line, etc, but that's besides the point but you seem to never miss an opportunity to twist things into some perceived negative even after suggesting how you have no problem with the Honda brand. It's amazing.

mylove4cars

You think so, amazing?

rockyfeller

iTrader: (6)

Personally I think the ILX is WAY better than the Civic. Maybe the magazine chose it based on value. The difference in driving them is the same difference to me between that of the Accord and TL. Sure they are the same platform but you can feel that Acura finesse.

Honda Legend. That sounds good. Funny that's what they call it is in Europe, even though the Germans started this letters/number trend. A lot of the US market Asian luxury cars use letters and numbers. In the rest of the world the same car uses a name. It is said that Americans tend to associate letters and numbers to the luxury European cars. They keep different names in other markets because those people tend to have an affection to names. What is funny is that the AMERICAN made luxury cars usually use names too. Don't they get that? I also have more of an affection to names myself.

You know I really wouldn't mind a renaissance of the "Legend" nameplate. I would have preferred that over the "RLX". The TLX would have to be the Vigor.....OK nevermind, keep it TLX

BEAR-AvHistory

winstrolvtec

It was not intended as a negative, just a an example that ALL the Japanese manufactures sell rebranded cars sold all over the world. The Infinity, Acura brands were a US marketing effort to project & differentiate higher the end product from the extra high volume bread & butter cars. An excellent plan, no need to see a negative when none is offered.

What I was suggesting was if the GT-R which as I said is a great car, might have been an pure image car for Infinity rather than an extension of Nissans sport car line which was established in the early 1960's.

Acura has the NSX in the US its a Honda in the rest of the world. Toyota has the Lexus LFA, pretty much a USA only car, so it would seem logical the GT-R would be an Infinity in the US.

Rocky, I believe the Civic won on points for being more sporty.

BEAR-AvHistory

4cars

7:08.69 Nissan GT-R Nismo (2015) Michael Krumm September 30, 2013 'Track Pack' with 255/40RF-20 run-flat Dunlop SP Sport Maxx GT 600 DSST tires.

Was run in 2013 but was a 2015 prototype.

Car & Driver editor Jan 2014: I board a plane to Germany for what I’m told is a ride in Nissan’s 2015 GT-R NISMO. This, and not the stock GT-R NISMO, is what I’ll be sitting in for a lap. I’m riding with former FIA GT1 champion Michael Krumm, who ran the 7:08.

Not a stock $107K track package which IIRC is $120K

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I agree that the OP could have been more clear in the first post.

Being a mechanical engineer, I totally understand the amount of $$, R&D that would have required to make a TLX that can compete head on with M3, IS F, AMG C63, etc.

However, in OP's subsequent posts, he gave a bit more explanation and in the end, the whole idea is pretty much what I said - assuming it can be done, would you want Acura to build an ultra high performance TLX that can compete with M3/IS-F/etc for $57k.

If we want to talk about how realistic this is in terms of engineering and sales success, then that's an topic that can lead to a lot of discussion.

mylove4cars

I agree, maybe I should have been clearer, hence it stands to reason that from a technical point of view challenges are obvious; all brands have recalls and quarks to deal with, even when in production.

Nevertheless, Acura/Honda has the knowhow and financial capabilities to take this on.

The question remains are they willing to go this direction?

winstrolvtec

Well I can give the benefit of the doubt so my apologies but the ILX part, especially the Civic comment and the comparo threw it off quite a bit. I was expecting more of a response like the one given here about flagships usually being labeled under the premium brand. Lots of reasons why they may have decided against that though, some we may not ever fully understand.

mylove4cars

If you search the web for info, put the "dominant" word between quotes. The way you perform a search gives you outdated info, you want me to post the latest correct info about that subject, for you again?

mylove4cars

In 2002 Nissan was facing financial difficulties and a superfast GT car must’ve been the last thing on the list of the company priorities, hence the appearance of the Nissan-Renault alliance sparked the need for a flagship model.

Renault was hesitant of an unknown brand name (Infiniti) for Europe.

From a today perspective, with in the past 4 years Infiniti Formula 1 world champion, we might see a change and further future for Infiniti in Europe. Realize, Formula 1 is very big in Europe and has reshaped the car industry in Europe multiple times.

BEAR-AvHistory

Outdated info? You posted 7:08.69 I posted 7:08.69. Do you see a difference in the time or the date run?

On pricing I will give you the benefit of the doubt you just don't know rather than trying to play with the data to support your premise. Early reports were sub $200K, later $152K but not finalized.

BTW the TLX is 290BHP/276FTLBS. Nice but not exactly a factory Hot rod.