BEAR-AvHistory

You are missing my point. The 3.5 Dreamer should make 400BHP with a turbo if they can put a turbo on it, if the trans can hold hold the torque, if the SHAWD is strong enough & if the basic platform can support the whole thing without getting torn up. I get 470BHP out of my 3 liter turbo.


What I think is silly is pricing it at $57K. I do not believe most TL buyers who tend to be price conscious would be interested in spending that much. It would still be a stretch for what the top end TL SHAWD buyers are paying now $45K to $57K. They are already getting hit with a $5K whack if the proposed 5G numbers from the raffle hold up.

A $2500 or so premium over the top end $50K TLX price would be as far as I think people will go given the base & the lack of ability to capture other brands customers.

There has been a steady erosion of the base for the past few years most all moving up stream, some to Hyundai/Kia & I do not believe they were just horsepower buyers looking for a lot of G on launch.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I'm not sure what getting 470hp out of your 3.0L turbo is relevant to this topic. That's the nature of FI. You turn up the boost, you get more power. People do that to their Supra's, Skylines, Evo's, STI's, NSX's, Civic's, etc. Tons of those cars are north of 500hp.

The 400hp figure of the TLX mentioned here is just a random number. It can be 420hp, 450hp, 500hp...etc. And it's not just about the power. The whole idea is, what if Acura builds a M3/RS4/C63/IS F competitor? Assume it is competitive with those cars in terms of acceleration, top speed, handling, fun to drive, features, styling etc. All of that for $57k loaded instead of $70k+ loaded like the others. Forget about sales, forget about development costs, forget about feasibility, forget about profits for Acura. Would anyone be interested in something like this?

internalaudit

The beauty of this forum is no one is considered a troll and we are all just engaged in healthy and even unrelated debate.

George Knighton

Oh, I dunno.

I got a little list over here, and it even has a couple of moderators on it.

fsttyms1

Well some are called that if they dont like the current direction Acura has been taking lately, or dont agree with a few that think Acura> all others. (see above)

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

we can play what if's all day long.

internalaudit

I understand that not everyone is happy with the direction Acura is taking but there is a reason why there is a title thread, so people can stay a little bit on topic.

For those "Trolls", they should just start their own thread and list all their complaints about Acura's direction and product lines. Hopefully, they'll provide better alternatives at similar price points. which I'm definitely open to.

I am eyeing an Acura TLX because I first came across a discussion whether all AWD systems are made equal. After perusing a lot of forums and blogs, it seems the SH-AWD is one of the better AWD systems out there especially since many are brake-based and don't possess true torque vectoring.

Some reasons I might go for a TLX are:

1. J.D. Powers and Consumer Reports (possible a few others) rate Acura's reliability quite high, though lower than Lexus, as I tend to hold on to my cars until they become too costly to repair.
2. Acura's don't command too much of a premium pricing in the luxury segment and offer significant discount to MSRP (RLX at least), which is good for people like me with limited budgets.
3. I don't race / track so I don't need a >$100k car.
4. Although a mass-market Tesla is in the works for release in 2017, I'm still not sure how reliable these vehicles are and we drive less than 20k miles each year and extended warranty for Acura's/Honda's are quite reasonably priced.
5. SH-AWD + good winter tires - for my daughter's added safety when she reaches driving age in two years. Blind spot on our 2011 Accord Coupe is not very visible.

I think Acura's with SH-AWD does provide a good $/fun ratio. Heck, if the Accord V6 came with SH-AWD, I would opt for that, but that won't be happening anytime soon.

Will Acura release most info during the New York Auto Show when the production model is unveiled?

BEAR-AvHistory

Agree, How many people would buy a TLX with 470HP for $50K?


The relevance is its not hard to get lot of power out of an engine deigned as a turbo engine from the start. I used mine because I only have $1100 in it but, the 750WHP’s or 860BHP 335’s have about $15K in them. Its mostly about the rest of the supporting cast.

Even at my power level in a car designed to take boost, it had a factory overboost function before I modified it, a lot of the rest of the car is marginal. Guys with sticky tires are breaking half shafts, driveshaft's, center sections & mounting bushings. At the road course after some hot laps without cooling upgrades the car would go into limp mode till it cooled down.

I run an oversized FMIC to keep the charge cool etc. The car also a secondary water radiator & a large oil cooler. There is a cottage industry that caters to these upgrades. So based on experience I would suggest it takes a lot more than a turbo add-on which means a lot of development money.

I would expect since they have already spent the development money in the N/A dream engine the quick TLX will be a Hybrid not a turbo. The Infinity hybrid has just been released at 360BHP & would be a good target with tested tech Honda already has on the street.

TeamAcura

Interesting thread. No question, I'd buy a TLX if it had the performance to match an M3, RS4 type of vehicle for 15K to 20K less. It's almost a no brainer. I like being the underdog; I mean this with the utmost respect but to me Acura is like "the little engine that could".

mylove4cars

Maybe a little less than a M3, I still buy it.

1black_seven

iTrader: (2)

So basically a turbocharged TL.
Acura won't deliver. To them the only customers that exist are old people who do under the speed limit in the left lane.
It's becoming the Buick of imports.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Thank you for clearing it up.

Logically, and to better fit with Acura's Smart Luxury direction, I also think hybrid makes more sense. The system from the RLX would be nice on the TLX with 500lb less weight to haul around. However, at 380hp or so, that's not gonna compete well against the likes of M3, C63AMG, IS-F, etc.

On the other hand (again I know I'm just dreaming), I wouldn't mind a dumbed down version of the NSX's powertrain to be fitted in an ultra high performance TLX. 3.5L V6 Twin turbo with eSH-AWD. Yea it won't be cheap for sure but hey man that would be one sweet ride...

BEAR-AvHistory

The electric motors give you is instant punch because maximum torque for an electric is at zero RPM. So for a street style traffic light Grand Prix they can be very good especially with AWD.

The quarter mile will not be as good as an mid to upper 4 second to 60 would suggest because the 310bhp dream engine is most likely generating about 265/270whp will not pull the top end. But it could still be fun on the street.

Like the poster above said it unlikely they would ever try to do M3 etc type cars. But they could do a good mainstream car that is pretty quick.

Its back to the base, BMW, MB etc buyers are performance buyers while Acura buyers are price/dependability buyer.

This is THE enthusiast forum for Acura 4/5G & look how few actually run cars in any type of competition. Guys here talk about modding with the latest in window tint on the other forums its who has the best tune for my car.

mylove4cars

Like another poster mentioned, you cant drive what you don't have or is not available, something in that respect.

Regarding performance cars; BMW - MB are really not looked up as performance cars, they don't have that pedigree like Porsche for example.

BMW and Mercedes Benz are nice cars, more like Jack of all trades and master of none!! No offence to anyone.

In Europe where they are born they are the quote-quote status symbols, Mercedes Benz a little more than BMW.

winstrolvtec

Probably more like the buyer thinks they are getting a performance vehicle or a more competent one whether that is actually true or not is another story and depends. The C300 and 350 are not all that performance oriented over many TL's. I would say the "35" or better engine buyer is after performance at BMW in most cases, while the rest could get that in an Acura minus the RWD based on major selling models with comparable levels of price and equipment. In some models, even the range topping N55 variant is not enough to really distinguish it as more performance, like in the X5.

Furthermore, as examples, the base engine in an RLX is still a large V6 with over 300 hp where the more appropriate and better price and feature aligned competition is a 4 cylinder turbo or under powered V6, like a 2.0T A6 or 528, etc. Same goes for the FWD TL and SH relative to it's closer competition in terms of price and equipment, like the A4, 328, etc.

No denying Acura offers less performance models as a whole but this last point is largely a matter of perspective.

TeamAcura

Such a blanket and ignorant statement. Not every BMW enthusiast is all about performance like yourself. Fact is, majority of BMW owners are not performance nuts. The VIP/stance scene is quite popular in the general car enthusiast community. Just as much money and time goes into suspension parts as there are for performance parts. And at the end of the day, we all share the same passion; our love for cars. IMO, you are a really arrogant and ignorant old man. Please stop pounding your chest like you are better than all of us here. Because that is the impression that I get and I know I'm not alone.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

but this thread is based off a hypothetical "performance Orientated" TLX build.

and I havent read all the responses, but I dont feel as Bear is arrogant and ignorant as you say he is.
he's bout that performance, which this thread is based on.

hypothetical, and what if's but you cant deny the title and the content of the original post.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

and thats why this argument is dumb because, we're talking about a car that doesnt exist

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

Hondata just came out with something for the 3G -almost 10 years after the car first debuted. Last I checked, Excelerate (Josh) was gonna try and persuade them to do something for the 4G. You can't discuss tuning options when little to none exists.

mylove4cars

Justin, that Is correct, its about a hypothetical Acura TLX V6 SH-AWD TT. What is not correct are the questions asked and statements by Bear; It's not about how many cars you possess or how much money you need to make, to afford so and so car, neither how many cars you raced.
Why belittling Acura drivers that are content with some small cosmetic changes? (Like window tint)

BEAR-AvHistory

One persons arrogance is another persons competence, depends on where you are viewing from. Happy to be an old man since all to many of the guys in my basic training company never had the privilege.

I have never worried about what other people think, no matter what you do or say its typical that 1/2 the people will disagree with you no matter what. So why try to please them.

As for being better, thought does not enter my mind, but appears to be on yours. That said I'm proud of going from the projects to senior management & will not apologize for it to appear suitably humble on a web site.

As for car A or B being sport oriented or not just check out the cottage performance industry that surrounds the car. For the TL its pretty much non-existent & since the A-Spec Honda itself has not catered the sporting driver. Its not a knock on anyone its just what is. Why should anyone be unhappy or think it’s a put down that they bought a nice comfortable reliable car?

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

If it's just the TLX with the RLX hybrid system, it's still nice but the price will need to be adjusted accordingly. Probably a $5k premium over a equivalent gasoline only trim. (i.e. if TLX SH-AWD tech is $45k, then the hybrid of this will be $50k).

Again, that goes back to the chicken and egg argument. Acura isn't producing any cars that are like M3, M5, AMG's, IS-F, S, RS, etc. Can't compete if the company isn't making anything to compete. If Acura want people to perceive the brand as a sport brand, then Acura needs to start building those high performance cars. The sporty image/reputation will then be built slowly, day by day, weeks by weeks, years by years. Eventually, people will start to see that Acura is just not a brand that makes near-luxury cars, but a company that makes good, high performance cars. Enthusiasts who don't want to buy those top of the line high performance Acura's can then purchase the lower trims.

BEAR-AvHistory

Agree if they can package it for $50-52 it should sell very well. Just to bad that they might have abandoned the prototype styling. That would be the home-run everybody is looking for.

Generating 450/470BHP & up to start to compete with the other cars you mentioned is not something they look to be currently interested in . The RLX is their Flagship @ 377 combined HP. An M5 is 552hp & the MB's AMG BiTurbos even more.

mylove4cars

Your comments are like the wind's direction and have no value.

Why belittling Acura drivers that are content with some small cosmetic changes? (Like window tint)

BEAR-AvHistory

Why do you think its belittling? Some people like to do cosmetics & not power, its always been that way. Its not belittling, it’s a statement of fact because there is not much available for power modifications for the TL & most anyone who is not brain dead understands that when they buy the car. Look at all the stuff available for the Civic, different base that is very active at performance events.

Manufactures are going to make stuff they think they can sell & they obviously don’t see the TL/TLX base as a place to spend performance development money on. When C&D or R&T calls the TL the Official Staff Car of the real state industry they are saying something, are they belittling the brand or making a professional observation on who the TL appeals to?

Some of the other brands have big cottage industries & factory support for people who want power mods & most car buyer know who those brands are so the performance base with money to spend will gravitate to those brands.

Some of you guys are way to sensitive & seem to look to be offended when no offence is offered. The TL/TLX is a nice big family car that performs well & is reliable. I don’t think anyone is going to confuse it with a car that people will take in any great numbers to Track Day or the Drag strip.

Exactly!! Nothing available from the aftermarket or the manufacturer. Does that not say something to you loud & clear about what the car is all about?

mylove4cars

This thread is about a hypothetical TLX (remember) SH-AWD V6 Twin Turbo!

The announced TLX which is not even released and you are talking about aftermarket and what the car is all about?

Why are you talking nonsense?

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Hoping for a pleasant surprise on April 16th.

Yup, I also don't see Acura coming out with cars to compete with those high performance divisions in the near future.

fsttyms1

Sounds just like your hypothetical TLX question. Nonsense.

mylove4cars

If I would believe a thread is nonsense, I would not participate to this thread.

Would it not be a waste of time?

mylove4cars

Yes, that would be nice.

High end BMW like mentioned M5 - M3 and MB/AMG are much more expensive.

weather

Test drove the M235 today....what a FUN little car!!

BEAR-AvHistory

It would have been easier to just say your turbo idea sucks & leave it at that. I gave reasons why I thought it a bad idea. You asked an open ended question that you thought everyone would salivate over. Without any parameters the question has no meaning outside of an enthusiasm suppository for die hard fans who want a high performance TL when none exists.

So my responses are about your proposal, no one has asked you to like or agree with them. You asked for opinions, who would buy one @$57K & it seems you got one in mine you really, really don’t like.

Therefore:

1. Its about your turbo proposal which is in IMHO a bad idea compared to what exists in the world today with Acura's current customers & Honda stated direction. Any kind of “what if” should have some basis in reality or else why not power it with a Flux Capacitor & a Mr. Fusion to convert veggies into fuel & sell it for $30K because $57K is Stingray money.

2. A Hybrid that fits within Hondas’ product current plan makes more sense for a high performance TLX or at least a good performance TLX. It plays to Hondas current development strength with the NSX.

3. Starting with the existing base at $36K, $57K seems well out of reach except for SHAWD Advance buyers regardless of what powers the car. $50/52K would be a more reasonable premium

4. The lack of an after market for the TL strongly suggests at the present time & for the past 15 or so years there has not been much interest either by aftermarket suppliers or TL buyers for performance products. No interest = no sales of a HiPo TLX. Look how few people are posting in this thread, lots of posts but very few people. Are the others voting by their absence?

5. There are a small handful here that want the ultimate BMW, MB & Audi killer but if it comes from a Japanese maker it will say Lexus on the badge not Acura. Or possibly from Korea with a Hyundai/Kia badge in a few years. The Genesis sport coupe with a V8 is a nice base.

mylove4cars

Did you drive the M235I - Turbocharged inline 6-cylinder engine with 326 hp. Very nice car with some M flair.

Strange for a Turbocharged 6 Cyl inline 326 Hp is not all that much, I know its quick 0-60 4.8 sec is an excellent time.

What's the price if I may ask?

BEAR-AvHistory

Agree. Drove one when I bought the 435M. It’s a real Back to the Future car for guys who feel the 3/4 series is to fat & wanted to go back a few generations in size. Liked it better than my 135is but I better keep my mouth shut around the house about cars for a while.

Be a good plan to have our 50th anniversary party first.

Optioned out its $50K MSRP figure $47K out the door. New model so not much of a discount. BMW sandbags their official numbers so I would guess 4.5 to 60.

weather

Yep...that was the one!! Lots of power and INCREDIBLE road feel...just a tad too much wind/road noise but still an amazing vehicle! The price was around 52k (Canadian) with a lease of about 950$ a month (48 months)


I agree...the 3/4 series have grown and lost their edgy design....this thing is the real BMW....the front view is as good as it gets!

Hawaii-MDX

Acura Fans Let's all just be thankful bear is not on acura's marketing team. There is still hope for a tt-TLX! Don't let a marketing consultant tell you what to buy!


One question, why would anyone in marketing debate with loyal consumers? Shouldn't it be the other way around, "listen and learn"? After all we are the consumers. If we want to spend our hard earned $ on an Acura then let us!





FWIW if my marketing guy tried to tell me what my customers want, while totally dismissing my customers opinions, he'd be out of job.

Hawaii-MDX

I saw it at the auto show. It is a beautiful car and one I'd consider. I had a 99' 3 series 5spd and loved the size and drive. aaah the good fun I had with it!


I don't understand the badging though... M235? Is it a wanna be M car or is it the real deal. I think it degrades the image of a true M car. My opinion of an M car is an exotic, performance no holds barred version of a normal competing car.

vbx

Even if it gets a turbo or everything in everyone's wish list. If it's still only available in an automatic. It's pure garbage.

mylove4cars

More than hope, another Japanese brand named Nissan, launched a GT-R some years ago. What, what a Nissan GT-R car - They where all laughing and saying what is this ugly duckling doing here on the Nurburgring - Looking there chronometers there didn't laugh no more, the M5's/M3's - MB/AMG's even the Porches and Ferraris got there ass beaten so bad (not even funny), this was quite some years ago. Today they still cant catch-up with the outdated Nissan GT-R ricer.

Btw. The Nissan GT-R just put a new record on the Nurburgring (fastest ever for the ones that did not know) shame on you all BIG boys.

No kidding, Bear will tell you why, for sure.......

CoquiTSX

+10