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I think Jon Ikeda has a brilliant plan to bring Acura back to its glory days (early 2000s) but because Acura’s never had to develop their own platform or infotainment system it going to take awhile, that why the 2020 2nd gen TLX was delayed and the 2020 4th gen MDX was because if you look at Acura’s release cycle the next gen or refresh MDX is alway releases the year after the RDX next gen or refresh and their car life cycle typically run for 5-6 years (the ilx is the longest generation of a modern Acura)
I still don't understand why Acura is spending money developing their own platform when 99% of the buying public doesn't know a thing about what platform underpins what cars. Lexus and Audi are able to reuse their Toyota/VW platforms just fine and they're selling well. The one thing I'll concede is that platform sharing inhibits their ability to build a RWD car or drop in a V8, but it's not like Acura has any plans to do that, and the Honda platforms can be adapted for SH-AWD, so what exactly is there to gain?
I still don't understand why Acura is spending money developing their own platform when 99% of the buying public doesn't know a thing about what platform underpins what cars. Lexus and Audi are able to reuse their Toyota/VW platforms just fine and they're selling well. The one thing I'll concede is that platform sharing inhibits their ability to build a RWD car or drop in a V8, but it's not like Acura has any plans to do that, and the Honda platforms can be adapted for SH-AWD, so what exactly is there to gain?
It’s probably for the new Acura exclusive twin turbo v6 I don’t think any current Honda platform can fit out carry a twin turbo v6. They explain why they changed the original CRV platform for the 3rd gen RDX in the debut at Detroit last year
I still don't understand why Acura is spending money developing their own platform when 99% of the buying public doesn't know a thing about what platform underpins what cars. Lexus and Audi are able to reuse their Toyota/VW platforms just fine and they're selling well. The one thing I'll concede is that platform sharing inhibits their ability to build a RWD car or drop in a V8, but it's not like Acura has any plans to do that, and the Honda platforms can be adapted for SH-AWD, so what exactly is there to gain?
Lexus performance cars such as the IS, RC, GS, LC, LS don’t share a platform with Toyota models
Lexus performance cars such as the IS, RC, GS, LC, LS don’t share a platform with Toyota models
Exactly, Audi and Lexus share platforms with their mainstream brands only at the low end of their model range.. the only exceptions are the big and soft Lexus SUVs (RX, GX, LX) which have no sporting pretensions whatsoever and do share their bones with similar Toyota models with the additions of layers of luxury fit and finish, features and better acoustic insulation...in this class of cars sharing it's ok if well done and with enough differentiation.
The sportier and pricier Lexus sedans and coupes do not share any chassis elements with Toyota...only the "senior retirement special" ES shares its platform with the Avalon.
Lexus performance cars such as the IS, RC, GS, LC, LS don’t share a platform with Toyota models
Actually, the IS, RC, and GS are based on a revised version of the old N platform, which is used on a few other JDM Toyota models. The next generation of those cars is based on the modular TNGA platform, which is already being used in performance-oriented cars like the Prius, Corolla, and Camry.
Not to mention, those cars also have RWD and (other than the current IS) can be had with a V8, so at least they're getting something out of it that Toyotas generally don't. Can someone point me to a RWD or V8 Acura? I'll believe the V6TT when I see it.
Exactly, Audi and Lexus share platforms with their mainstream brands only at the low end of their model range.. the only exceptions are the big and soft Lexus SUVs (RX, GX, LX) which have no sporting pretensions whatsoever and do share their bones with similar Toyota models with the additions of layers of luxury fit and finish, features and better acoustic insulation...in this class of cars sharing it's ok if well done and with enough differentiation.
The sportier and pricier Lexus sedans and coupes do not share any chassis elements with Toyota...only the "senior retirement special" ES shares its platform with the Avalon.
That's fair, but as far as I can tell, the TLX has more in common with the ES than it does with the IS and GS, so....
Exactly, Audi and Lexus share platforms with their mainstream brands only at the low end of their model range.. the only exceptions are the big and soft Lexus SUVs (RX, GX, LX) which have no sporting pretensions whatsoever and do share their bones with similar Toyota models with the additions of layers of luxury fit and finish, features and better acoustic insulation...in this class of cars sharing it's ok if well done and with enough differentiation.
The sportier and pricier Lexus sedans and coupes do not share any chassis elements with Toyota...only the "senior retirement special" ES shares its platform with the Avalon.
I thought the GX was a Highlander and LX was based on a Land Cruiser?
Actually, the IS, RC, and GS are based on a revised version of the old N platform, which is used on a few other JDM Toyota models. The next generation of those cars is based on the modular TNGA platform, which is already being used in performance-oriented cars like the Prius, Corolla, and Camry.
Not to mention, those cars also have RWD and (other than the current IS) can be had with a V8, so at least they're getting something out of it that Toyotas generally don't. Can someone point me to a RWD or V8 Acura? I'll believe the V6TT when I see it.
I’m pretty sure certain that parts of the chassis would be changed on the IS, GS, RC, etc of Lexus performance cars than Toyota mainstream Camry or Corolla
Actually, the IS, RC, and GS are based on a revised version of the old N platform, which is used on a few other JDM Toyota models. The next generation of those cars is based on the modular TNGA platform, which is already being used in performance-oriented cars like the Prius, Corolla, and Camry.
Not to mention, those cars also have RWD and (other than the current IS) can be had with a V8, so at least they're getting something out of it that Toyotas generally don't. Can someone point me to a RWD or V8 Acura? I'll believe the V6TT when I see it.
Actually, the IS, RC, and GS are based on a revised version of the old N platform, which is used on a few other JDM Toyota models. The next generation of those cars is based on the modular TNGA platform, which is already being used in performance-oriented cars like the Prius, Corolla, and Camry.
Not to mention, those cars also have RWD and (other than the current IS) can be had with a V8, so at least they're getting something out of it that Toyotas generally don't. Can someone point me to a RWD or V8 Acura? I'll believe the V6TT when I see it.
Steven Frey Chief Engineer for the RDX basically clarifies what I said previously that current Honda platforms aren’t able to accommodate what they have in mine for Acura
I would not be surprised if all next-gen Acura sedans share a single platform. The volume of individual sedan models sold today don't justify the development cost for unique platforms. Toyota now uses TNGA for it's newest vehicles, there are about five or six variations of the single platform. Lexus appears to be included in this strategy. The IS, GS and RC are based on old platforms and should no longer be used to support the case for unique platforms. The new ES, LS and LC are based on variations of this single platform. SUV's are too. The next IS and RC will either share or get a variation of a single platform. Most are speculating the GS is dead after the current model year.
Platform sharing is no longer taboo. It has as much to do with gaining efficiency in the manufacturing process as the construction of the vehicle.
Personally, I just want Acura to tell us the plan, and am getting tired of waiting. Their sedans are all old. The new ES F Sport is appealing to me. No match for a SH-AWD, but 80% of my driving us up and down the interstate to and from work. I'm not sure I consider it essential. I prefer to buy fifth consecutive Acura and will hang out to September to see the RLX/Legend before making a decision, but between the new Genesis G80 and Lexus, Acura has some serious competition.
I am eager to see the new sedans, but the pending new Genesis G80 is very appealing to me or even a G70.
I am eager to the see the RLX replacement soon and will decide if they are for me. I am less than impressed with the dash on my wife's 19 RDX. Not digging the gauge cluster and the new Navi screen is just not up to par.
Pebble beach will be interesting if the RLX/Legend is shown in near production form.
While I am a sedan guy, looking at the new videos on the 2020 Explorer ST looks enticing. Love the digital gauge cluster not sure I lie the Tesla like tablet infotainment.
Geeze, Honda sold more Fits than Acura sold sedans...with numbers like that it's no wonder Acura is prioritizing the MDX over the ILX and TLX and (lol) RLX.
I know we all want the new TLX. But honestly the market for sedan is terrible
Infiniti is offering a 300 and 400 HP Q50 with all the bells and whistles at a reasonable cost. But the sales number are beyond disappointing.
I want the new MDX ASAP and if possible the new ZDX. I am sure Acura will sell more than 2K units per month. Right now Acura can’t do that with either of sedans.
Acura - at this point in time - is pretty much the RDX and MDX.
Have to wonder how well the TLX is covering the fixed cost of plant etc & its ROI hurdle. If the car goes away all the variable cost goes away too. The original G5 plan was for 60,000/70,000 cars a year.
Just looked back in this thread & took some major criticism on my "opinions" as not being valid as I did not own the car only had driven in a few times. Now we are down to 1,800 cars a month, a 22,000 car annual projection & some of those guys are long gone. Wonder where they went?
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 07-03-2019 at 12:00 PM.
Bear, let's be fair here. The car is in its final months, so you can't take the worst sales months and apply to annual volume of 22k. At its highest, it sold close to 6 thousand units per month, I believe. I would say, overall, it averaged close to 4 thousand per month or just over 40,000 annually (on average). Not great, but not bad either considering that sedan sales are in the garbage for most of manufacturers. This is still an important car for Acura. They better hit a damn home run with the next gen or it could be over. Especially, if they go bonkers with an ugly design, aka 4G.
Bear, let's be fair here. The car is in its final months, so you can't take the worst sales months and apply to annual volume of 22k. At its highest, it sold close to 6 thousand units per month, I believe. I would say, overall, it averaged close to 4 thousand per month or just over 40,000 annually (on average). Not great, but not bad either considering that sedan sales are in the garbage for most of manufacturers. This is still an important car for Acura. They better hit a damn home run with the next gen or it could be over. Especially, if they go bonkers with an ugly design, aka 4G.
It will be a home run if they improve:
1. Infotainment
2. Engine options
3. Real wood, aluminum, digital dashboard, and premium material.
4. Reasonable pricing
5. Of course an attractive design.
Bear, let's be fair here. The car is in its final months, so you can't take the worst sales months and apply to annual volume of 22k. At its highest, it sold close to 6 thousand units per month, I believe. I would say, overall, it averaged close to 4 thousand per month or just over 40,000 annually (on average). Not great, but not bad either considering that sedan sales are in the garbage for most of manufacturers. This is still an important car for Acura. They better hit a damn home run with the next gen or it could be over. Especially, if they go bonkers with an ugly design, aka 4G.
The TLX average around 1,900-2,500 a month Acura is not selling 4,000 TLX amount of that the case the TLX would have been getting updates like how the MDX got interior updates to the real wood on the center console even after it got a MMC
Bear, let's be fair here. The car is in its final months, so you can't take the worst sales months and apply to annual volume of 22k. At its highest, it sold close to 6 thousand units per month, I believe.
That only happened for 1 month... in Oct 2015. It never managed to get close to 6,000 ever again. No, I don't consider the 5,258 units sold in April 2017 close to 6K.
Originally Posted by dmski
I would say, overall, it averaged close to 4 thousand per month or just over 40,000 annually (on average). Not great, but not bad either considering that sedan sales are in the garbage for most of manufacturers.
The TLX only sold over 40,000 in 2015. Sales then fell by almost 10,000 units the following year. That cannot be solely blamed on the SUV/CUV trend.
Something happened after the 4G TL came out, and it continued with the TLX. Some of us know what it is. It's been here and in various threads throughout the Car Talk and Automotive News sections. Some will continue to deny those reasons.
TL
TLX
And just like those people, Acura had denied there was anything wrong and didn't take action for years until recently with their pivot toward performance and luxury
Acura's Future: How the RDX May Influence the Brand’s Upcoming Cars
The RDX compact SUV charts a new course to what Acura aspires to be. If you've seen RDX sales numbers lately, this won't come as much of a surprise. But during a visit to our office this week, Art St. Cyr, American Honda's new vice president of automobile operations, revealed more about what Acura has learned from the 2019 RDX's launch, and how the luxury crossover's sales success will inform Acura's future-car decisions.
Here's what we learned.
Acura = Performance?
"Performance is going to be our luxury," explained St. Cyr, an engineer by education, with leadership stints at Honda Performance Development and Honda R&D. Acura's focus may have been unclear in years past, but performance is said to be a main pillar for the brand moving forward. Lots of brands have similar claims, and in Acura's case, the RDX adds some credibility here.
Why A-Spec Is Here to Stay
With the exception of the brakes and an occasional transmission goof, our RDX A-Spec long-termer's performance has impressed us over more than 15,000 miles. St. Cyr admits that some folks just want the look of sportiness, but regardless of why buyers go A-Spec, Acura tells us that the trim attracts double the number of buyers under 45 years old compared to other trims (34 versus 17 percent).
Currently, the ILX, TLX, RDX, and MDX offer A-Spec variants.
What About Type S?
St. Cyr declined to comment about the possibility of an RDX Type S, but he did remind us that the brand is considering Type S variants as one way of expanding its SUV lineup. Given that Mercedes has a AMG version of the GLC, BMW has a X3 M, and Audi has the SQ5, it would make sense for Acura to be looking at a RDX Type S with a turbocharged V-6.
Why the CDX May Not Reach Our Shores
With the CDX compact crossover sold in China, we know Acura was considering a version for the U.S. market. Keeping in mind that "performance has to be the foundation of what we're doing," St. Cyr suggests the CDX may not fit with this ethos. Plus, Acura is concentrating on getting its existing house in order — referring to the coming redesigns of the MDX, TLX, and ILX. Never say never, though...
TL;DR
Future Acuras will follow the RDX's lead, placing a greater emphasis on performance. Expect a (hopefully) improved touchpad infotainment system to roll out across more models, and look for A-Spec models to possibly lower the average age of Acura buyers. Type S models might be on the way, too.
Bear, let's be fair here. The car is in its final months, so you can't take the worst sales months and apply to annual volume of 22k. At its highest, it sold close to 6 thousand units per month, I believe. I would say, overall, it averaged close to 4 thousand per month or just over 40,000 annually (on average). Not great, but not bad either considering that sedan sales are in the garbage for most of manufacturers. This is still an important car for Acura. They better hit a damn home run with the next gen or it could be over. Especially, if they go bonkers with an ugly design, aka 4G.
Nope only sold over 40K once in 2015 the next yest dropped 10,000 units to 37,156. The average, a bad thing to use because the reality is today, since its introduction was 3,000 a month. Thing is its not made 3000 a month actual since 2016.
The high water mark was 2015 when they sold 47,080 (3900 monthly). Since then 2016 (3,000 monthly), 2017 (2900 monthly), 2018 (2500 monthly), 2019 through June 13,132 (2200 monthly)
My number of 40k units a year was a guess. Bear, if you average out 2015-2018 annually its just over 37k a year so not that far off. Yes, last year will be bad but that's a typical trend. Not including 2019 in the mix. To be honest, I just don't see the numbers improving even if the next gen gets everything right. The market is so diluted with suvs/cuvs. That's the trend.
Making vehicles is about making money. Like Bear astutely pointed out, Acura invested some amount into building TLXs and expected an ROI based on sales. If Bear was right in their target being 60-70k per year, then they obviously fell short by a huge margin (37k average is like 60% of target). Worse, the low demand and this gen being so long in the tooth means lots of incentives and deep discounts. No one is paying close to MSRP for these TLXs, so Acura likely isn’t making what they wanted to on the ones they are selling.
The TLX really was bad for the perception of Acura as well as its revenue generation. After the recent sales table was posted, I considered looking into the release of other comparable sedans to see if they dropped off so severely immediately and consistently year over year based on new models, redesigns and mmrs. I’d check the Accord, A4, 3 series and ES, but I don’t want to spend the time. My guess is the TLX first gen (or fifth if you prefer to consider it) fared worse then all of those through the run of a single generation... and I bet the numbers show a much worse (less successful) sedan. Acura needs a miracle to save their sedans.
Making vehicles is about making money. Like Bear astutely pointed out, Acura invested some amount into building TLXs and expected an ROI based on sales. If Bear was right in their target being 60-70k per year, then they obviously fell short by a huge margin (37k average is like 60% of target). Worse, the low demand and this gen being so long in the tooth means lots of incentives and deep discounts. No one is paying close to MSRP for these TLXs, so Acura likely isn’t making what they wanted to on the ones they are selling.
The TLX really was bad for the perception of Acura as well as its revenue generation. After the recent sales table was posted, I considered looking into the release of other comparable sedans to see if they dropped off so severely immediately and consistently year over year based on new models, redesigns and mmrs. I’d check the Accord, A4, 3 series and ES, but I don’t want to spend the time. My guess is the TLX first gen (or fifth if you prefer to consider it) fared worse then all of those through the run of a single generation... and I bet the numbers show a much worse (less successful) sedan. Acura needs a miracle to save their sedans.
One of the problems the guys just don't seem to get using multi year averaging is something you can't do in sales. You will never, ever see them used in any major business, TL had one hot year 2015 then the sales chart on the CFO office wall had a arrow pointing very steeply down. Its very easy to see how wrong the multiyear average is in tracking the health of the product.
With 2015/16 in the average of 3450 sales a month the car line appears to be selling OK but if you use 2018/19 its a disaster at 2,350 car sales a month or a loss of over 12,000 cars a year. Think of this when you look at the lost car sales of 12,000 units annually. In the first 6 months of 2019 they sold a total of 13,172 cars in the US.
The other thing that very had to quantify is when an TL/TLX buyer leaves he might step into a RDX/MDX but is gone if he is looking for another sedan. With the other car lines there are a few levels of sedans above the cars in the TLX market. The 5 series sold 44,000 cars last year & 23,000 so far this year so the sedan market is tougher but not dead.
They also all have SUV's, for example the X3/X5 very closely match up in number of sales with the RXD/MDX with Acura slightly ahead last year & BMW slightly ahead this year. The market is way more crowded now with in addition to the usual suspects Kia, Alfa, Hyundai , Buick, Genesis are making steady inroads with competitive products & getting big boosts from the automotive press
Point I am trying to make the actual raw numbers suggest that Acura as a car company is in a world of hurt & really needs to get the Generation 2 TLX right.
One of the problems the guys just don't seem to get using multi year averaging is something you can't do in sales. You will never, ever see them used in any major business, TL had one hot year 2015 then the sales chart on the CFO office wall had a arrow pointing very steeply down. Its very easy to see how wrong the multiyear average is in tracking the health of the product.
With 2015/16 in the average of 3450 sales a month the car line appears to be selling OK but if you use 2018/19 its a disaster at 2,350 car sales a month or a loss of over 12,000 cars a year. Think of this when you look at the lost car sales of 12,000 units annually. In the first 6 months of 2019 they sold a total of 13,172 cars in the US.
The other thing that very had to quantify is when an TL/TLX buyer leaves he might step into a RDX/MDX but is gone if he is looking for another sedan. With the other car lines there are a few levels of sedans above the cars in the TLX market. The 5 series sold 44,000 cars last year & 23,000 so far this year so the sedan market is tougher but not dead.
They also all have SUV's, for example the X3/X5 very closely match up in number of sales with the RXD/MDX with Acura slightly ahead last year & BMW slightly ahead this year. The market is way more crowded now with in addition to the usual suspects Kia, Alfa, Hyundai , Buick, Genesis are making steady inroads with competitive products & getting big boosts from the automotive press
Point I am trying to make the actual raw numbers suggest that Acura as a car company is in a world of hurt & really needs to get the Generation 2 TLX right.
The problem with Acura is that it takes for ever for them to release their cars so by the time there out the market is already ahead of their new vehicles, it took them 3-4 years to release a car complete build around the precision concept which is ridiculous why release the concept of a new design language if your not going to release the next generation of for vehicles in 6 months to a 1 year fro when the concept is released I’m pretty sure if the Precision concept was released in La for 2017 and the new RDX when it was released in January it would have been more hype around the RDX which would have further the sales number
The problem with Acura is that it takes for ever for them to release their cars so by the time there out the market is already ahead of their new vehicles, it took them 3-4 years to release a car complete build around the precision concept which is ridiculous why release the concept of a new design language if your not going to release the next generation of for vehicles in 6 months to a 1 year fro when the concept is released I’m pretty sure if the Precision concept was released in La for 2017 and the new RDX when it was released in January it would have been more hype around the RDX which would have further the sales number
Periods and punctuation would have made that a lot easier to read
I did it anyway. A couple things stand out to me:
-3 Series wallops the other premium brands in this comparison and it's not even close. Lexus is a distant second. Audi and Acura are tied for least sales.
-As others said, sedans seem to be on a general downward trend.
-As I said, the TLX had one of the hardest dropoffs in 2nd, 3rd and 4th YOY sales in this whole chart.
I did it anyway. A couple things stand out to me:
-3 Series wallops the other premium brands in this comparison and it's not even close. Lexus is a distant second. Audi and Acura are tied for least sales.
-As others said, sedans seem to be on a general downward trend.
-As I said, the TLX had one of the hardest dropoffs in 2nd, 3rd and 4th YOY sales in this whole chart.
If you want good historical BMW numbers you need to add in the 4 series to the 3 series. What is the 4 series used to be counted in with the 3 until they split them out a few years ago. They went to an 4 door (3) vs 2 door (4) car numbering scheme in mid 2015 & the 2018 would be 107,336.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 07-05-2019 at 12:04 PM.
Periods and punctuation would have made that a lot easier to read
The problem with Acura is that it takes for ever for them to release their cars. So by the time there out the market is already ahead of their new vehicles, it took them 3-4 years to release a car complete build around the precision concept which is ridiculous. Why release the concept of a new design language if your not going to release the next generation of for vehicles in 6 months to a 1 year from when the concept is released. I’m pretty sure if the Precision concept was released in La for 2017 and the new RDX when it was released in January it would have been more hype around the RDX which would have further the sales number.
Making vehicles is about making money. Like Bear astutely pointed out, Acura invested some amount into building TLXs and expected an ROI based on sales. If Bear was right in their target being 60-70k per year, then they obviously fell short by a huge margin (37k average is like 60% of target). Worse, the low demand and this gen being so long in the tooth means lots of incentives and deep discounts. No one is paying close to MSRP for these TLXs, so Acura likely isn’t making what they wanted to on the ones they are selling.
The TLX really was bad for the perception of Acura as well as its revenue generation. After the recent sales table was posted, I considered looking into the release of other comparable sedans to see if they dropped off so severely immediately and consistently year over year based on new models, redesigns and mmrs. I’d check the Accord, A4, 3 series and ES, but I don’t want to spend the time. My guess is the TLX first gen (or fifth if you prefer to consider it) fared worse then all of those through the run of a single generation... and I bet the numbers show a much worse (less successful) sedan. Acura needs a miracle to save their sedans.
I agree in concept, but can’t believe Acura expected to sell 60-70K a year, not after the 4G debacle even though on paper the TLX was back to 3G roots, but that boat sailed. While it seems they had gotten a clue lately, I guess back in 13-14 when finalizing the TLX they clearly still had their heads up their butts when sizing up the competition.
The problem with Acura is that it takes for ever for them to release their cars so by the time there out the market is already ahead of their new vehicles, it took them 3-4 years to release a car complete build around the precision concept which is ridiculous why release the concept of a new design language if your not going to release the next generation of for vehicles in 6 months to a 1 year fro when the concept is released I’m pretty sure if the Precision concept was released in La for 2017 and the new RDX when it was released in January it would have been more hype around the RDX which would have further the sales number
The long cycle would not be bad if they made incremental changes. The days of FMC then 3 years to MMC will not keep them competitive. The Germans and Koreans tweak option and such all the time so they can stay in the game.
06-09-2019, 01:00 AM
here and in various threads throughout the Car Talk and Automotive News sections. Some will continue to deny those reasons.
