SSFTSX

they built MDX and TL-SH-AWD. Although they are not perfect but certainly alot closer or better to non tubo X5 and non turbo BMW 3/5.

2010 Euro Accord Type S without ADAS package/metallic paint costs the same as 2011 BMW SE 520D. it is just Acura not bringing it. nothing to do with building it. So honda badge is getting used to prices closer to much newer and larger BMWs with same engine bhp.

V6 5 speed Auto TSX on 18inchs (280bhp) is half a second faster than FWD TL on 17inch. (280bhp) from 0-60mph.
just extrapolate these figures from TL SH-AWD 6MT to TSX SH-AWD 6MT. u have a car that do sub 5 second performance with outstanding handling in much more refined aerodynamic package.
Hyundai simply cant design squarish (that look stylish imposing) low aerodynamic resistence vehciles.

fsttyms1

Sorry, i think that is a pipe dream. Even with SHAWD the TSX wouldnt achieve those numbers. That added weight would slow the car down.

fsttyms1

Im sorry but the new Genesis sedan is better in just about every way than any thing acura has.

SSFTSX

TSX V6 has only 50lb weight difference V6 FWD TL but V6 TSX numbers are on 18inch.
TSX Sh-AWD will weigh slightly less than TL-SH-AWD. but superior aerodynamics will give it greater advanatage once speeds built over 60mph. quarter mile and 0-120 timing will be very different with 3.7L engine.
I think there will be no problem for R&T to get sub 5 sec with 6MT and 3.7L(not the lesser 3.5). AWD gives better launch time.

look at TL perofrmance. the difference between 5speed Auto and 6MT is about One Second. TSX has added advantage of changing engine from 3.5L to 3.7L. So even if it achieves 4.9sec with 6MT 3.5L. it should do better with 3.7L.

SSFTSX

It cant do 68mph slolam and 0.91g. neither has its NVH levels showing some big difference despit being V8. there is TL test on Edmunds about NVH levels.
there are other quality and objective differences.

Costco

I think Acura dropped the ball on the whole Tier 1 thing too.

fsttyms1

4.9 come back to earth. Thats faster than a NSX with 1000 less pounds and similar HP. And how do you know it has much better aero? Are you a aerodynamicist. I highly doubt it is, especially any bit large enough to make a difference. Especially with a car that has a speed cut off just above 130

fsttyms1

Yea, the Genesis is larger, faster, more room, better stereo, better looking i can go on.

majin ssj eric

^^^Why don't you have SSFTSX on ignore???

SSFTSX

NSX engine dont have torque from 3.2L the same way as 3.7L. so how is 5.2 sec achieved with TL-SH-AWD?. C&D achived the same figure. in very magazine test TSX auto V6 is faster than V6 auto TL. so why 6MT TSX will not be faster than 6MT TL?.
C&D has tested 4cylinder TSX to 134mph.

SSFTSX

Geneise is not faster than 6MT TL SH-AWD unless they built 6MT Gensis.
Fastest record and best handling times and best NVH levels record is with Acura. better looking?. it so drab looking like copy of Benz/Lex. not unique styling that stands out. and sales reflect that stupid forumula just V8 in car and will become automatically tier 1 without looking at other ingredients.

NJ SHAWD

Well in my opinion...
I've driven the 09 V8 Genesis sedan multiple times. The ride was terrible, and the handling equally bad. The accelearation was about par with the TL. It had almost the same amount of toys, but they were crude. The leather was cheap and there were many cheap plastic bits. The basic idea and design were a home run, but they lost it in the details.They made serious suspension changes on the 2010 model year, but by all accounts it's not even on the TL's radar. So instead of buying a Genny, I bought a TL...and I'm part of Hyundai's Think Tank.

SSFTSX

MDX, TSX, TL and to certain extent ZDX/RDX are good for what they represents. they just need TSX SH-AWD to complete AWD line up like Audi.


SH-AWD means superhandling AWD. not matter how big the car or SUV like MDX. 0.92g on Edmunds which is the most conservative test taker.

well atleast Acura dont pretend to compete for which it is not good anyway.


Genesis is giving false impressions of luxury by its looks and V8/6speed Auto

winstrolvtec

The problem with that is when you add SH-AWD to a TSX you are talking about a model that is only around 50-100 lbs less (at best) than a TL SH-AWD, either the 6MT or the 5AT. So it is marginal. Also there is no gearing alterations between the current TL FWD and the TSX V6 so the only benefit it has is it's about 50 lbs lighter and has better aerodynamics being smaller so based on that information I don't see a half second difference between the cars in a 1/4 mile stat, maybe 1 or 2 tenths is all.

I don't believe you can compare individual and independent sources of acceleration numbers but in the event there actually is a half second difference between the TL FWD and TSX V6 it's mostly because the higher profile tires and rims on the TSX actually help it track that much better, not hurt it. The reasoning behind that is there is no significantly better HP to weight ratio or any gearing at play. This can be proven by looking at traps speeds of the TSX V6 and FWD TL which are not that far apart. So by adding SH AWD you are not adding as much of a traction benefit as you might think because it already has one over the FWD TL.

Take the TL for example the same auto version FWD and AWD. The AWD adds weight and there is obvious power loss but the 3.7 and added traction overcome those things but it's also the combination of lower gearing in the SH model that gives it any performance advantage. The 5AT SH has run as fast as the TSX V6, that was also R&T. So if applied the same way with SH-AWD and the 3.7L, the TSX will be slightly faster than it's V6 FWD version (to a point) and because of obvious reasons it will be faster than the TL SH version as well but not a half second unless there is error of some kind.

But I have to agree that since the TL SH 6MT is already hitting 0-60 in the 5.2 range then I see no reason why a lighter, smaller TSX version couldn't break a 4.9. Although, unless it gains at least another 30 HP it won't keep up with an S4 for anything past the 0-60.

NJ SHAWD

wow, logic. Sounds like Ytown thinking

SSFTSX

half a second difference between TSX V6 and FWD TL V6 is achieve nearly by all magazine tests. 18inch rims are more on heavier side and actual power delivery will be less than similar 17inch. these are not light weight chrome rims. It even achieved faster times than TL SH-AWD Auto.

6MT SH-AWD TSX would have no problem beseting TL SH-AWD 6MT .


TL is not aerodynamically efficient at higher speeds so it 0.7 second difference between S4 and TL at 0-60 transforms into 3 second difference at 0-120mph. with TSX it will be at most 1 second. so in nut shell TSX SH-AWD will generated higher Gs and better top speed. that will make it desirable enough to be close second to S4 and surpassing BMW 335/G37 with there less desirable comfort/interior and styling.

practically speaking 305bhp is enough for 3800lbs car competing against 4150lbs car. It is all needs the right aerodynamic efficiency. S4 is at 0.28. TL is some where in 0.31 region. TSX with 0.25/0.26 will balance it.

winstrolvtec

The half second may be true, I am not saying it's not but it is not all a result of power or weight differences because the TSX V6 and TL FWD are almost identical in those ways and aerodynamics does not play into 0-60 that much. What I am saying is the TSX V6's 18 in rims must add some traction benefit to the car, unless there is something about the car Honda is not telling us. That is why Honda did not include an LSD for the Accord coupe or TSX V6, instead they went with heavier, larger diameter rims and that actually helps traction when brake torquing. Lighter rims will only spin tires on these high HP FWD cars without an LSD or traction control assistance.

Hypothetically if they made a TSX SH-AWD in 6MT it should and would be faster than the TL 6MT but best published time vs best published time the TL SH 5AT and TSX V6 ran even (both from R&T) but the TSX has the top end advantage no doubt. So I agree in large with what you are saying but not all of it.

Yes practically speaking 305 HP on a lighter TSX SH would be enough to compete with a heavier S4 and it’s 333 HP but the problem is the S4 seems vastly underrated. I usually don't buy into that stuff but in this case cars like the G37 and 335 that rival it's power and are 400 lbs lighter can't trap anywhere near it. I know it's 1/4 time is a result of AWD traction as well as it's power but it's not geared any better than almost anything else in the comparo and runs a monster of a trap for it's specs. That's why for arguments sake the TL and possible TSX SH would need another 30 HP to compete better.

And back to the other point, I don’t see why the TL 6MT could not run a 0-60 in a 4.9, IF it didn’t have a launch limiter in place that restricts it at 4k rpms. I don’t know about the other cars but there does not seem to be any launch restrictions in place. We know the TL is down on power compared to the rest of the cars but it is in my opinion based on the information R&T provided that the TL makes the best traction in that sense which allows it to be as competitive as it is in the first place.

mrmako

the Euro Accord (EU)/Accord (JDM) do not offer the V6, so you folks in the US/Canada are lucky. And I agree with the TSX, if equipped comparably (SH-AWD) would be a player in this game.

The previous TSX was had over here in Japan with AWD, but only with the 2.4L motor, and it wasn't SH. I bet the frame has the mount points for it, though. Just a guess on my part.

SSFTSX

It is not the 333bhp of S4 which pretty much cancels out due its weight but its broad range of 325 fl-lb of torque. Even lighter G37 has 328 bhp.
G37/335/TL are between 270 to 290 ft-lb. U can see 0-60 times of 335/G37 are pretty close but once S4 buidls its momentum above 60 mph. the competition falls behind. In C&D test from 0-140mph. S4 was some thing like a Second ahead of lighter 335. and 335 has less frontal area.
So it is drag coefficient mulitply by frontal area and also downforce to prevent car from airborne in sharp turns.
Ideally u can create a car like Toyota Prius or MB efficiencyfor straight line acceleration but it wont have any handling powers.
It is combination of SH-AWD and aerodynamic efficiency to win this kind of competition.


u have to wonder how TSX achieve better fuel economy than Civic and Fit at highway speeds. Primary focus of TSX is aerodymanics but not of TL. this description is for 1G TSX not 2G TSX. 2G TSX is faster than 1G TSX from 0-100mph by 1 second despite having heavier weight, larger frontal area, wider taller tires and lower bhp. imagine the Cd of 2G TSX.

winstrolvtec

SSFTSX, this in one of the few times I am actually on your side, don't blow it..... j/k. On a serious note, I am not saying aero has no part in it, obviously it does but it's for top end mostly. The S4 just has more power for it's weight compared to all the cars combined with superior aerodynamics.

For an AWD car with an active rear differential and Torsen center LSD it should lose more than only 5% of it's power to the wheels. Their HP figure is either a lie and there really is just more power or the supercharger compensates for drivetrain loss by varying the boost. Generally, FI engines just respond better to further load placed on the engine like when you go up a hill or add passengers to a car when compared to a NA engine but 5% loss is unheard of.

Some of the most effecient engineering can accomplish 10% loss but usually that is for FWD and RWD, not AWD. Some of Honda's losses for 6MT FWD models are 10% so a 6MT SH-AWD has to be in the 15-20% loss range. So you will need an additional 10% to match the S4's HP to weight ratio, which is an additional 30 HP. At that point, because of the better aerodynamics, the TSX could have better acceleration than this S4 at every speed. So more importantly it is the power to the wheels and not just the BHP combined with the Cd.

Even at 305 HP, I would agree that it could probably be as competitive as the BMW 3 series or G37, meaning a race would be near even from a roll or high speed situation but not from zero, besides if Acura limits it's cars to 130 mph then there would be little point. Anyway, if this car ever comes out it will be at a time when it will have over 305 HP.

The aerodynamic focus around the TSX is tremendous. It needs to be a very fuel effecient model for it's main market in Europe but it is marginally heavier than the last gen (around 50 lbs) and it has more torque. Likewise it is rated at less HP but we know it makes more HP to the wheels through increased effeciency, plus the gearing has been improved. I am sure it has improved traction and launching abilities too, well the I4 anyway. So it is all of these things combined with the aerodynamics that make it highly improved.

SSFTSX

BMW 335 has the best and G37 has nearly identical power to weight ratio but they lose out at higher speeds.
It is not lie. for S4 there is split second difference with BMW 335/G-37 upto 60mph. it is not some extra ordinary power delivery.
u have to consider that it is Cd alone but frontal area. S4 is alot larger frontal area car than BMW 335/G-37. and have 19inch rims.
BMW 3 Sedan and G37 dont have that great Cd coefficient. even the newest Coupe which is more aerodynamic has higher Cd. i understand it is very difficult to compete against torque boost of forced induction engines. NA engines simply cant compete.





2G TSX is 120lbs heavier than 1G TSX not 50lbs.. it has to overcome larger frontal area and larger heavier tires and rims. u need more aerodyanmic efficiency to make 1 second difference upto 100mph. 1 second difference is not easily achieved through gearing when both are using 6speed manual not like comparing 6speed auto to 5speed auto. since its top bhp is lower its top end performance becomes nearly identical to 1G TSX.


http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezfl...517bd990bc.pdf

winstrolvtec

Understood and the consensus is that it's because of the superior Cd in the S4 but are you comparing BHP to weight or WHP to weight? If you use wheel figures the S4 is has the best followed by the G and then the 3 based on the weight figures from the R&T review. So HP to weight and Cd, it's not Cd alone, although that is a part of it.

I just don't think a 6MT SH TSX is going to run 12.9 and 109 mph traps. I understand it could probably be equal or better at higher speeds because of the aero differences vs the S4 but it needs equal WHP to weight first. Plus AWD cars have an advantage from zero where the G and 3 in RWD could compete as well as the S4 but not necessarily from a dead stop.

Actually I believe it's 130-220 lbs depending on the equipment, we both have wrong info. Anyway, if you look at the acceleration of the 2006 in the link you can see you are correct in that the 2G I4 6MT is 1 sec faster to 100 mph but not really any faster to 110 mph. So I doubt it is really due to aerodynamics as much as you think, it helps but it's probably due to gearing, the tweaked engine powerband and increased power effeciency to improve the mid range as a priority.

http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezfl...ba2e08de73.pdf

Another example, the 4G 6MT despite a worse power to weight ratio and worse aerodynamics compared to the 3G TLS, still improved in 0-100 mph testing because of added traction and improved gearing.

SSFTSX

and BMW has more low end torque from 1500rpm and is the lightest of the bunch. i doubt that much losses on wheel.



TSX 5speed auto from R&T has achived 14.4 & 99mph on all season tires.
lower the body by half an inch to make it equal to S4. put summer performance tires, lighter 6MT and add Sh-AWD. result will be prettyclose to 109mph. BMW 335 is even lower further by an inch. just raise the heigh tof BMW 335 by 1.5inch than u get TSX height.

basically BMW has POS body with excellent weight balance and turbo engine to compensate it.


Because peak bhp of 2G and 1G are nearly identical so top speeds cant be that different. It is extra weight, frontal area, larger tires hence more frictional resistence that 2G has to overcome all the way upto 100mph. at the end both cars will have pretty similar top speed and how to achieve that top speed faster, quieter and further at most of journey that matters.
so it is not just reducing the drag but reducing the drag in such a way that it does not increase wind noise.
1G TSX was top Cd but 2G not only have to improve on that but in way that minimize wind noise. so everything has to be designed from ground up. u cannot cut corners by ignoring one over the other. just compare the mirror size of 1G and 2G.



i doubt 4G has that much worse aerodynamics than 3G TL-S. both have pretty simlar widths. those 3G type S mirrors stick it out and airflow beneath was not good. it still has extra 25 bhp and more torque.

fsttyms1

majin ssj eric

On what planet do you suppose a TSX is going to trap at 109mph???? 'Cause it sure as hell ain't planet earth.

NJ SHAWD

If you read, they are not saying the current TSX will.

SSFTSX

http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/co...d-lexus-is-350

Look at this R&T data panel and closely analyse it.
It is from 2006 G35 sport 6MT. Car has empty weight of 3615lbs.
Car has 306bhp and 268 ft-lbs of torque. it is on performance tires.
0-60 timing of 5.4 second
quarter mile 13.9 dec @101.8 mph.

Now 2010 TSX V6 has 3680 lbs empty. It is 5speed auto, it has all season tires which are on heavier side for longer life. above all it is rated at 280bhp and 254 ft-lb of torque.
0-60 timing of 5.9 sec
quarter mile 14.4mile @99 from RT.

I guess putting 6MT with 100lbs less weight with low profile summer tires will shave full second of those timings. So TSX will be faster or same as G37 S Sport despite having only 280bhp 3.5L engine. and TSX is wider car than narrow G37. this is called aerodynamic efficiency. and this Gap will keep increasing once speeds built over 100mph. so @120mph result will change in favour of TSX even with 280bhp engine.

alexSU

iTrader: (3)

wtf, a TSX trapping 109mph??? that will NEVER happen. i don't think any future TSX will do that either.

cp3117

It might be easier for you to understand if you dont look at it as a automotive test but as any kind of a marketing event.

If you want your new product to succeed when promoting it, you will put it up against older competition (ie: Discontinued S4 and the G35, where the G37 was weeks away from being released). Once you have tested the controlled group against your new product and you've guaranteed it wont fail in a specific test (ie: testing them on different tracks untill you find the best results for your product) you then release the results to credible media sources....or in Honda's case invite them to your event to see the results. I understand your type of thinking because your looking at the actual times off the clock and believing its correct (which physically it is) but the results are still bias because the sample pool is bias. This is obviously a good type of marketing as it deceives the consumer like yourself into thinking a product (While still very good) is actually much better than it really is.

You even posted a link showing Acura tested the 6MT at VIR and its own track. Why dont you think they didnt hold their event at VIR where R&T conducted this test?? Probably because the vehicles had much better results than Honda wanted to see at VIR like the R&T test showed and left a much greater risk of negative marketing as "George" pointed out in a previous post.
One just has to look at the BMW which was the exact same vehicle at both tests and the large difference in results to see what Honda was trying to achieve.

No one has said that the Automotive Mags cant be bias as this can easily be applied in their "Subjective Categories" but its much harder to do in the testing unless they alter their test pool and testing enviroment like Honda did at their event. I do agree that there are unfortunately variables that do come into play when the Mags have the vehicles given to them and they dont have a say in options. It would have been great to see the track results with the TL and S4 on the std 18" wheels similar to the BMW and G37s rather than the optional 19" wheels.

SSFTSX

why will future TSX wont do it? even curent technlogies will do pretty close result. Europe already had sport suspension.
Honda has apparently mastered Sh-AWD tech as low cost option when u look at Audi/BMW prices. no other Asian makers come close to it.
I was looking at TSX wagon pix. i believe Honda is working towards even more aerodynamic efficiency. They are already the leaders in this segment in world. That tud shape Prius dont count. Design an aggressive looking squarish cars with lowed Cds is what Honda has mastered.

scuc

with the addition of the sh-awd you're suggesting, I'm pretty sure that weight savings. It might also help if they make it more rearwheel biased.

SSFTSX

I am only suggesting Sh-AWD if they want to upgrade 3.7L to benefit for greater torque.
Otherwise 6MT 3.5L TSX FWD with LSD will do just fine in straight line performance.
Acura has mastered Sh-AWD as low cost alternative to RWD biased vehicle. so no need to invest in altering platforms. fuel efficiency will come from upgarding 6AT just like MDX.

Sh-AWD has achieved excellent result in much larger TL and MDX.
i am pretty sure TSX will make it to level of S4.
TL is now near the top in its class surpassing RWD 335/G37 in handling.
u have to consider that BMW 335 is 1.5inch lower car than TSX/TL.
Even with current technologies Honda can pretty much throw BMW in handling and straight line performance department just like Audi did with torque vectoring in S4.
Honda is still not using DI engines like Lexus/BMW/Hyundi/Audi/Infiniti using to enhance low end torque.


when u look at this speedometer.look at red line starting point.
It is of V6 TSX not I4. there is some thing special about that 30mpg. for those who understand. TL V6 can achieve it but TSX is slight different. it all points towards aerodynamic efficiency.

mrmako

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Subaru has been doing AWD for a lot longer than Honda. Plus the nature of their system is really close to that of the Audi. Symmetrical AWD FTW. And the Legacy GT 6MT is at 5.6 seconds, 0-60 right now. Can't do that in a TSX.

But there is a lot of potential with the TSX platform if Honda were to go that direction. But they won't.

SSFTSX

comeback when Subaru and Mitsubish make 195inch 4000lbs car that pull 0.92g and 68.5mph on Edmunds test and still have one of the lowest NVH levels. Honda has achieved it on different level car.
tubocharged engines dont count as they shorter life. Honda has protect its reputation built on decades of high quality long life products across the globe.
and 6MT TSX V6 will beset so called 0-5.6 of legacy GT. times as TL is 6MT is beating those times. in Honda case the whole is much more than sum of its parts.

design look so outdated as cross between old Infiniti G and 3G TL. it is not sleek lines of TSX. Even TL is gaining traction with its scary styling.

majin ssj eric

Wtf are you smoking dude? Seriously? The TSX is a nice entry-level luxury sedan. Thats it. It will NOT trap 109 mph. Not now. Not in 2020. You keep banging on about Cd this and aero-that but it will not make any difference in the real world. The car is not designed to be that fast; thats not its purpose. It is a fine performer, as is the TL, but heres a heads up for you: SHAWD does not make a car faster through the 1/4 mile. Period. And neither does a .02 difference in Cd....

SSFTSX

how much faster is 6MT TL than 5speed Auto TL Sh-AWD?
how much faster is 5speed Auto TL-SH-AWD than 5Speed Auto FWD TL?
how much faster is 5speed Auto TSX V6 than FWD TL V6 auto?
Now transpose this from FWD Auto TSX V6 to 6MT SH-AWD TSX with HPT.

u simply dont want to admit that Honda can very easily built a car that is faster than G37 and outhandles it with superior noise & wind suppression with ACE body structure safety.

subinf

Subaru design looks dated? Much better than the current line of shit being produced by Acura.

alexSU

iTrader: (3)

+1

cp3117

Damn, you beat me too it.

I saw a used Impreza sedan last night with probably a sport pkg and it looked great. Even that front end of the Subaru he posted looks better than the TL IMO...

SSFTSX

Acura current styling were initially polarizing and consumers were not accepting it but now sales have improved to its historice level which were 60% of Lexus sales. and Acura average price point has moved up significantly with new TL/TSX/MDX. once sales move up for such expensive vehicles it means design is atleast acceptable.

sales in Canada are up 50% previous month. Acura has now 22 dealers in China

I dont see that many 2.5GT Limited Subarus which can realistically compete with Acuras.