R&T Comparison - S4 vs. 335i vs. G37S vs. TL-SH AWD
04-01-2010, 08:29 AM
#201
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Damn man.
What you don't seem able to comprehend is that the stripped out base version of B8 S4 isn't really "stripped", alright? IF this was B8 "A4", yes it can really be stripped with a pretty low base price. However, the most stripped base version of S4 still comes with so many options because it is already at Premium Plus trim. Do you get that?
....
Why can't you get this??
I agree with you to some degree about the ridiculous pricing point, but I just wish you would understand where I'm coming from just a little bit.
What you don't seem able to comprehend is that the stripped out base version of B8 S4 isn't really "stripped", alright? IF this was B8 "A4", yes it can really be stripped with a pretty low base price. However, the most stripped base version of S4 still comes with so many options because it is already at Premium Plus trim. Do you get that?
....
Why can't you get this??
I agree with you to some degree about the ridiculous pricing point, but I just wish you would understand where I'm coming from just a little bit.
That doesn't mean they don't get your point.
Although I am glad that I have the Tech Package in my TL 6-6, to be honest, if they didn't make me buy it I probably would not have. Now that I have experienced it, I am very glad I have it...but if they had offered the 6-6 without Tech Package, I'd have probably bought one without ever experiencing the Tech Package.
So...please know that many of us appreciate your point of view. A lot of us, even the older guys like me, might think the same way, generally speaking.
... but [it] was definitely a staged event back then obviously for marketing reasons. When you invite journalists to your own track with cars not picked or prepped by the journalists and they aren't allowed to bring there own timing instruments or perform any independent tests other than the track test.........well i think its easy for anyone to see the bias there.
Okay, in the first place there were some independently minded people at the tests. It was a very risky thing to do to invite people like, oh, let's say me, maybe, or people like, hmmm.... maybe Jeff Palmer to events like this. You do not know what people are going to do or say. There are many events that have been so blatantly, ridiculously biased that people have refused to report the event, or have come away reporting negatively.
Not Honda or Acura events, mind you, but these things have happened many times in GM, Ford and Toyota's past.
It's also not that hard to do your own timing with an iPhone or other surreptitiously held device. It won't be scientific, but it's not hard to verify the track's equipment if there is more than a second or so difference in the times.
We can debate this forever without reaching a conclusion, but what the track officials will tell you, and what AHM will tell you, is that the reason they want only certain calibrated devices to be there is because they are afraid of anybody else's bias, or afraid that the devices that are run by inexperienced people, or calibrated incorrectly, will report erroneously and start arguments that will spill over into the Internet or the press. It can take hours to get these devices set up, you know. And if one of them isn't working right, it takes more hours to figure out what is wrong with the GPS or the laser, and this all while everybody else associated with everybody else's timing equipment is all over you and giving you advice and/or interfering because they really want you to rely on their own timing equipment.
Believe me, it's better to stay in control or let the track officials stay in control of the timing and transponders. LOL.... I forgot about that. If you go the transponder route, then you'll have a bunch of transponders on everybody's car and then everybody's going to argue about whose transponder is in what physical location on the car and which one gets out ahead of the others.
Believe me, I've been there and it's a ridiculous situation to be in.
Everyone knew who the winner would be....
... before the ink was even dry on the invite. This test by R&T (Who originally where at the Honda event) actually proves that as the TL performed very well (best independent test yet) but the track numbers where much closer than the exaggerated results from the Honda test in 2008 due to the fact they where using current models in this test.
There are also a number of otherwise very good drivers who will be uncomfortable being on the limiter and hitting the kink on the front straight. This visibly slows down some drivers.
The majority of us do understand what your saying. I do find it funny how some are referring to the Audi premium pkg as a "stripper" model though. They make the S4 sound like it has crank windows, manual locks and a milk crate for seats.
This is a very engaging car to drive.
But I don't think I would want it for a regular, daily commuter. Once you get used to a NAV that talks back to you, once you get used to being able to just talk to your car to do most things, you're just not going back to the Plain Jane.
But...I understand your point and take it well.
Last edited by George Knighton; 04-01-2010 at 08:32 AM.
04-01-2010, 09:00 AM
#202
Why not throw the R8 in there for the same price. I get a kick outta these smack talk threads. Let's be honest, there isn't a pig in the bunch. Personally, I don't think the S4 is worth an extra $20 gizzle for the same content and marginally better performance - its simply not worth it to me as a DD since I'm not tracking the car to and from work. As for the TL, I was laughing at the shnozz, plenum, bucktooth - whatever you want to call it too...until I drove one. For a five gizzle ugly discount off MSRP - you are getting one helluva deal. 
04-01-2010, 09:06 AM
#203
I think that everybody understands and it's your choice. People are going to continue to come back and make the point over and over again that the TL 6-6 simply includes a lot more equipment at a lower price point than the S4 that is identically (or even similarly) equipped. That doesn't mean they don't get your point..
Correct me if I'm wrong but honda's "Vectoring" AWD isn't even an asymetrical all wheel drive, like subaru. Just because you have found a way to route power to 4 wheels doesn't make your stuff "all/four wheel drive". The term has really been abused by the car marketing gurus
04-01-2010, 09:11 AM
#204
The article stated "you get what you pay for" and in this case the S4 costs more b/c IT IS BETTER. If you don't think its worth more $$$$ that is your opinion but Audi priced it where they think its competitive.
The S4 will be more cross shopped with the 335 than the other two cars and I can't imagine many people comparing the classy looking S4 with the childish looking TL. The S4 also have much more technology optional. Even in base form you get lovely seats, brakes and "S" trim like the sideview mirrors etc. In base form you get more power and a better performing car.
Then who pays MSRP for a car? While there is less haggle room than say the TL (which is being given away) you can still get discounts for it. If you have an AMEX you can get thousands off your S4 as a partner.
The Audi buyer is well aware their car might not be the best value. They feel its WORTH the money and worth the price.
The S4 will be more cross shopped with the 335 than the other two cars and I can't imagine many people comparing the classy looking S4 with the childish looking TL. The S4 also have much more technology optional. Even in base form you get lovely seats, brakes and "S" trim like the sideview mirrors etc. In base form you get more power and a better performing car.
Then who pays MSRP for a car? While there is less haggle room than say the TL (which is being given away) you can still get discounts for it. If you have an AMEX you can get thousands off your S4 as a partner.
The Audi buyer is well aware their car might not be the best value. They feel its WORTH the money and worth the price.
04-01-2010, 10:10 AM
#206
One on the right for me
04-01-2010, 10:18 AM
#207
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I've done that already. But nobody reads, nobody listens, and nobody is willing to believe that anybody could possibly know more, so it's not worth doing again.
But...it's back a few posts if you want to talk about it.
But...it's back a few posts if you want to talk about it.
04-01-2010, 10:23 AM
#208
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Correct me if I'm wrong but honda's "Vectoring" AWD isn't even an asymetrical all wheel drive, like subaru. Just because you have found a way to route power to 4 wheels doesn't make your stuff "all/four wheel drive". The term has really been abused by the car marketing gurus
An actively vectoring AWD like SH-AWD or the optional Quattro Audi system does a lot more than an asymmetrical system could accomplish.
Having said that, however, let me hasten to add that most of us would agree that Subaru's asymmetrical AWD in various iterations is a very nice alternative in a certain price range. Anybody who has owned a simple, old Honda like the DC2 ITR will be attracted by the Legacy GT's simple, black interior and analogue nature.
And on another level, I think that most of us would agree that the on-the-track performance of cars like the STi are very impressive, especially in a stock car in its price range.
But even Subaru will admit to the superiority of SH-AWD and other vectoring systems like the one in the GT-R, and I am sure that they are looking forward to the day that the technology makes it affordable in the Legacy and others of their cars.
04-01-2010, 10:47 AM
#209
04-01-2010, 11:11 AM
#210
That you put asymmetrical in the same league with actively vectoring AWD, and that you put vectoring in quotation marks suggests a lack of understanding.
An actively vectoring AWD like SH-AWD or the optional Quattro Audi system does a lot more than an asymmetrical system could accomplish.
An actively vectoring AWD like SH-AWD or the optional Quattro Audi system does a lot more than an asymmetrical system could accomplish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OzK-oRPCbs
04-01-2010, 11:20 AM
#211
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I don't think that most of us would have any problem with that video, as far as it goes.
But let me hasten to add that there is a difference between Real Time 4WD (CR-V), VTM-4 (Crosstour) and SH-AWD (MDX).
I apologise for the mistake I made and hope you will not hold it against me, and let me say again that many of us who like SH-AWD and sporty Hondas would also be attracted to many Subaru vehicles.
I'm attaching this because it has another uphill test of AWD systems.
The test is deliberately contrived to show the advantage of SH-AWD, just as the test you showed was contrived to show the advantage of Subaru Symmetrical.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YidkaqlW9ns&hd=1
But let me hasten to add that there is a difference between Real Time 4WD (CR-V), VTM-4 (Crosstour) and SH-AWD (MDX).
I apologise for the mistake I made and hope you will not hold it against me, and let me say again that many of us who like SH-AWD and sporty Hondas would also be attracted to many Subaru vehicles.
I'm attaching this because it has another uphill test of AWD systems.
The test is deliberately contrived to show the advantage of SH-AWD, just as the test you showed was contrived to show the advantage of Subaru Symmetrical.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YidkaqlW9ns&hd=1
04-01-2010, 11:23 AM
#212
Senior Moderator
I've read, I understand and I appreciate the information. Having never driven a 4G TL I can't comment on its capabilities. So I have no reason to doubt what you or anyone else has said about its performance.
Hate to beat a dead horse, but its looks are still far to big an obstacle for me to overcome. Not that I'm in the market for a car of that class anyway.
04-01-2010, 11:29 AM
#213
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I'm very sorry. Made two mistakes in a row. :-) Time to go get some fresh air!
The vB error that won't let you go to the last page from the User CP has caught me more than a couple of times, too.
The vB error that won't let you go to the last page from the User CP has caught me more than a couple of times, too.
04-01-2010, 11:33 AM
#215
I drive a Subata.
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One thing though, this thread has convinced me to go test drive 4G TL 6MT. 
I'm just curious, that's all. If 4G TL tweaked its front end just a little bit when I was shopping for a new car last year, I would have gladly traded in my 3G TL for it.. really. Believe it or not, I was a huge fan of Honda/Acura. My previous cars were 6G Accord and 3G TL, all were brand new. It makes me sad that there isn't a single car from either Honda/Acura that I want to own.
I'm just curious, that's all. If 4G TL tweaked its front end just a little bit when I was shopping for a new car last year, I would have gladly traded in my 3G TL for it.. really. Believe it or not, I was a huge fan of Honda/Acura. My previous cars were 6G Accord and 3G TL, all were brand new. It makes me sad that there isn't a single car from either Honda/Acura that I want to own.
Last edited by JS + XES; 04-01-2010 at 11:38 AM.
04-01-2010, 11:34 AM
#216
I drive a Subata.
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04-01-2010, 02:14 PM
#218
Valid point about the S4 and it's level of equipment even in base form. It is far from a stripper in the sense but the term was applied to denote base model which was understood. Maybe a poor choice of wording but almost nothing comes without A/C or power windows nowadays so the term now really applies to base models but no one wants to mislead those who may not be aware of that.
There was another point about the full leather seating option in the S4 when compared to the TL and that is also valid when comparing exclusively to the TL and should be brought into consideration but even at that it's about a $12k difference instead of $13k difference. Fair enough but it doesn't deduct from the point, and in keeping with the thread and it's topic, the equipment should be best aligned with all the other cars in mind and not just the TL to determine as accurately as possible a fair pricing comparison, so that box should get checked. It comes down to premium leather vs premium leather no matter how they compare. It's in the end that you determine if the price is justified and just how they compare to each other. The same thing applies to all other aspects of the cars as well.
Still none of this takes away from the standard level of equipment you find in the TL or more that you get in the G already included. As far as features and options when best compared there are some things present in one that are not even available in the other, this is true for all of these cars but they are no more than $1k worth of electronic components so it's negligent. Besides they trade off when it comes to those types of things. Considering that (but maybe it is just my judgement) you do need to get a prestige S4 to better compare. There are a number of popular items in the premium plus that are missing when comparing to the others also loaded or very well equipped.
There was another point about the full leather seating option in the S4 when compared to the TL and that is also valid when comparing exclusively to the TL and should be brought into consideration but even at that it's about a $12k difference instead of $13k difference. Fair enough but it doesn't deduct from the point, and in keeping with the thread and it's topic, the equipment should be best aligned with all the other cars in mind and not just the TL to determine as accurately as possible a fair pricing comparison, so that box should get checked. It comes down to premium leather vs premium leather no matter how they compare. It's in the end that you determine if the price is justified and just how they compare to each other. The same thing applies to all other aspects of the cars as well.
Still none of this takes away from the standard level of equipment you find in the TL or more that you get in the G already included. As far as features and options when best compared there are some things present in one that are not even available in the other, this is true for all of these cars but they are no more than $1k worth of electronic components so it's negligent. Besides they trade off when it comes to those types of things. Considering that (but maybe it is just my judgement) you do need to get a prestige S4 to better compare. There are a number of popular items in the premium plus that are missing when comparing to the others also loaded or very well equipped.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 04-01-2010 at 02:16 PM.
04-01-2010, 02:25 PM
#219
Senior Moderator
Too bad some VERY negative personal matters took up most of my time. 
04-01-2010, 02:52 PM
#220
04-01-2010, 03:58 PM
#221
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I am surprised with S4 performance being V6 supercharged which matches '03 Cobra performance. Great job Audi! 109mph trap speed is great for factory V6 vehicle.
I am also surprised at TL performance (and yes, I despise the ugliness) by being close to G37S thanks to SH-AWD traction while being 3mph slower at the end of 1320ft.
Model..............1/4mile(mph)……………...HP/TQ……………Weight (lbs)
S4…………………...12.9@108.6………………..333/325…………4010
335i………………...13.3@105.7………………..300/300…………3570
G37S………………..13.6@105.6………………..328/269………..3665
TL (SH-AWD)…..13.7@102.3…………………305/273………..3860
which matches '03 Cobra performance. Great job Audi! 109mph trap speed is great for factory V6 vehicle.I am also surprised at TL performance (and yes, I despise the ugliness) by being close to G37S thanks to SH-AWD traction while being 3mph slower at the end of 1320ft.
Model..............1/4mile(mph)……………...HP/TQ……………Weight (lbs)
S4…………………...12.9@108.6………………..333/325…………4010
335i………………...13.3@105.7………………..300/300…………3570
G37S………………..13.6@105.6………………..328/269………..3665
TL (SH-AWD)…..13.7@102.3…………………305/273………..3860
04-01-2010, 04:23 PM
#222
Senior Moderator
04-01-2010, 04:34 PM
#223
Senior Moderator
And it's funny how the MSRP of the GT-R is only about $12k more than this S4.
04-01-2010, 04:48 PM
#224
Someday, an RS6 Avant+
That you put asymmetrical in the same league with actively vectoring AWD, and that you put vectoring in quotation marks suggests a lack of understanding.
An actively vectoring AWD like SH-AWD or the optional Quattro Audi system does a lot more than an asymmetrical system could accomplish.
Having said that, however, let me hasten to add that most of us would agree that Subaru's asymmetrical AWD in various iterations is a very nice alternative in a certain price range. Anybody who has owned a simple, old Honda like the DC2 ITR will be attracted by the Legacy GT's simple, black interior and analogue nature.
And on another level, I think that most of us would agree that the on-the-track performance of cars like the STi are very impressive, especially in a stock car in its price range.
But even Subaru will admit to the superiority of SH-AWD and other vectoring systems like the one in the GT-R, and I am sure that they are looking forward to the day that the technology makes it affordable in the Legacy and others of their cars.
An actively vectoring AWD like SH-AWD or the optional Quattro Audi system does a lot more than an asymmetrical system could accomplish.
Having said that, however, let me hasten to add that most of us would agree that Subaru's asymmetrical AWD in various iterations is a very nice alternative in a certain price range. Anybody who has owned a simple, old Honda like the DC2 ITR will be attracted by the Legacy GT's simple, black interior and analogue nature.
And on another level, I think that most of us would agree that the on-the-track performance of cars like the STi are very impressive, especially in a stock car in its price range.
But even Subaru will admit to the superiority of SH-AWD and other vectoring systems like the one in the GT-R, and I am sure that they are looking forward to the day that the technology makes it affordable in the Legacy and others of their cars.
Back on point: I would love to drive the TL, and before I bought the Subaru I was shopping the Legend and Fuga (RL and M from Nissan), but they were too expensive. I can't say that SH-AWD is superior. I'd have to drive it to know.
04-01-2010, 05:12 PM
#225
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And since we compare low 300 HP vehicles
S4 does shine quite well.
04-01-2010, 06:27 PM
#227
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04-01-2010, 07:15 PM
#228
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Actually the times are posted at the beginning of each vehicles review.
I dont think people thought that Honda fixed the event by tampering with the vehicles (I sure hope they didnt), but is was definitely a staged event back then obviously for marketing reasons. When you invite journalists to your own track with cars not picked or prepped by the journalists and they aren't allowed to bring there own timing instruments or perform any independent tests other than the track test.........well i think its easy for anyone to see the bias there. Everyone knew who the winner would be before the ink was even dry on the invite. This test by R&T (Who originally where at the Honda event) actually proves that as the TL performed very well (best independent test yet) but the track numbers where much closer than the exaggerated results from the Honda test in 2008 due to the fact they where using current models in this test.
I dont think people thought that Honda fixed the event by tampering with the vehicles (I sure hope they didnt), but is was definitely a staged event back then obviously for marketing reasons. When you invite journalists to your own track with cars not picked or prepped by the journalists and they aren't allowed to bring there own timing instruments or perform any independent tests other than the track test.........well i think its easy for anyone to see the bias there. Everyone knew who the winner would be before the ink was even dry on the invite. This test by R&T (Who originally where at the Honda event) actually proves that as the TL performed very well (best independent test yet) but the track numbers where much closer than the exaggerated results from the Honda test in 2008 due to the fact they where using current models in this test.
I don't mind Honda using that event as an advertisement, as long as it's legit, and well, this test shows that it's indeed legit
But I definitely see where you are coming from. But I don't think the results were exaggerated back then. Like you were saying, those were older models, new cars came out and so it's not surprising the results are different now. Also, George already mentioned, both tests were conducted at two different tracks. I do agree that the TL doesn't beat the others by 2-3 seconds on every single track.
04-01-2010, 08:13 PM
#229
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Thread Starter
Anyway, no comparison test is ever going to be fair. For example, it has been proven that the AWD G is faster around a track than the RWD G, so comparing RWD (3,G) cars to AWD (S4, TL) cars really isn't even fair if your want to get picky about numbers.
We all have to just put up with what these magazines do and be smart and diligent about the information that they provide.
We can make up our own informed conclusions.
04-01-2010, 08:25 PM
#230
I spend 2 much time here
Wow, this thread went all crazy since I last visited, LOL.
Anyway, no comparison test is ever going to be fair. For example, it has been proven that the AWD G is faster around a track than the RWD G, so comparing RWD (3,G) cars to AWD (S4, TL) cars really isn't even fair if your want to get picky about numbers.
We all have to just put up with what these magazines do and be smart and diligent about the information that they provide.
We can make up our own informed conclusions.
Anyway, no comparison test is ever going to be fair. For example, it has been proven that the AWD G is faster around a track than the RWD G, so comparing RWD (3,G) cars to AWD (S4, TL) cars really isn't even fair if your want to get picky about numbers.
We all have to just put up with what these magazines do and be smart and diligent about the information that they provide.
We can make up our own informed conclusions.
04-01-2010, 08:46 PM
#231
Punk Rocker
I'm still staggered by ALL of the acceleration times in this test. They are the fastest times I have seen in a major magazine for the TL, G37S, and the 335i...
04-01-2010, 08:52 PM
#232
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Wow, this thread went all crazy since I last visited, LOL.
Anyway, no comparison test is ever going to be fair. For example, it has been proven that the AWD G is faster around a track than the RWD G, so comparing RWD (3,G) cars to AWD (S4, TL) cars really isn't even fair if your want to get picky about numbers.
We all have to just put up with what these magazines do and be smart and diligent about the information that they provide.
We can make up our own informed conclusions.
Anyway, no comparison test is ever going to be fair. For example, it has been proven that the AWD G is faster around a track than the RWD G, so comparing RWD (3,G) cars to AWD (S4, TL) cars really isn't even fair if your want to get picky about numbers.
We all have to just put up with what these magazines do and be smart and diligent about the information that they provide.
We can make up our own informed conclusions.
04-01-2010, 09:06 PM
#233
TRACK TESTING
Acura conducted extensive validation testing of TL prototypes at numerous locations around the world. SH-AWD® tuning was conducted in New Zealand, testing on city streets was done in Southern California, corrosion performance evaluations were conducted in Nova Scotia, and snow and cold-weather testing was done in Minnesota as well as in Alaska. In addition, cooling and brake tests were performed in Death Valley, high-altitude testing was done in the Colorado Rockies, and performance tuning was conducted in Japan, at the famed Nürburgring circuit in Germany and at Virginia International Raceway, where the TL SH-AWD® proved highly competitive with its premium class competitors.
Acura engineers conducted extensive validation testing of the new 6-speed manual transmission equipped TL SH-AWD®. Whether driven on a roadway or racetrack, reliable performance was as of equal importance as overall vehicle performance.
During testing and evaluation, Acura engineers spent much time analyzing and comparing the TL SH-AWD® 6MT to other vehicles in its competitive set. The TL falls in a unique category whereby it has more passenger/cargo volume than vehicles such as a BMW 3-series or Mercedes C-class, yet it is has less cargo volume than a BMW 5-series or Mercedes E-class. However, based on the engineering goal to build a vehicle that would outperform competitive set sedans regardless of size or price, the TL SH-AWD® 6MT track testing focused on the best handling versions of each manufacturer's model. In all cases, this meant the smaller, lighter models (such as BMW 3-series).
Competitive Vehicles
Engine/Horsepower Drivetrain
Acura TL SH-AWD® 6MT 3.7L V-6, 305 hp AWD
Audi A4 2.0L I-4, 211 hp AWD
Audi S4 3.0L V-6, supercharged, 333 hp AWD
Audi A6 3.2L V-6, 255 hp AWD
BMW 335i 3.0L I-6, twin-turbo, 300 hp RWD
BMW 335xi 3.0L I-6, twin-turbo, 300 hp AWD
BMW 535i 3.0L I-6, twin-turbo, 300 hp RWD
Infiniti G37 Sport 3.7L V-6, 328 hp RWD
Infiniti M35 3.5L V-6, 303 hp RWD
Infiniti M35x 3.5L V-6, 303 hp AWD
Mercedes C300 Sport 3.0L V-6, 228 hp RWD
Mercedes C300 4Matic Sport 3.0L V-6, 228 hp AWD
Mercedes E350 Sport 3.5L V-6, 268 hp RWD
Mercedes E350 4Matic Sport 3.5L V-6, 268 hp AWD
TL SH-AWD® 6MT testing occurred at a variety of locations including at Virginia International Raceway as well as at Honda R&D Americas' own Transportation Research Center (TRC), a 1.6-mile, 15-turn road course (designed by renowned track designer Alan Wilson) that was specifically built to highlight challenging handling characteristics including quick corner transitions along with increasing and decreasing radius turns.
The goal of the TL SH-AWD® 6MT was to generate an extremely neutral handling vehicle that provides great feedback to the driver along with excellent predictability. Often times, all-wheel-drive vehicles provide more overall traction but are saddled with a heavier feel and a pronounced amount of understeer. With front-wheel-drive, typically there is a constant battle with understeer which dramatically hampers handling performance. Rear-wheel-drive traditionally delivers quick road course times, but requires a skilled driver to manage the constant transitions between understeer and oversteer. During testing, although the BMW 335i and Infiniti G35 Sport generated similar (yet slower) lap times, the driving level required to achieve the times came with a constant threat of an oversteer-generated spin-out. In short, a driver of average skill level will be able to drive the TL SH-AWD® 6MT much closer to its handling limits without fear of a spin as compared to if the same driving skill level were applied to any of the TL's competitors.
In lateral g-force acceleration testing on a 200-foot diameter dry skidpad, the TL SH-AWD® 6MT effortlessly outperformed all competitive set sedans as the 6-speed manual transmission TL generates an impressive 0.96 g in clockwise direction driving and 0.97 g in counterclockwise driving. For comparison, the TL SH-AWD® 6MT generates more lateral grip than some exotic supercars.
All said, the TL SH-AWD® 6MT proves highly competitive not only within its premium class competitors-regardless of engine size, transmission style, or drivetrain design-but also amongst much more powerful and more expensive limited-edition sport edition sedans offered by competitors.
Acura conducted extensive validation testing of TL prototypes at numerous locations around the world. SH-AWD® tuning was conducted in New Zealand, testing on city streets was done in Southern California, corrosion performance evaluations were conducted in Nova Scotia, and snow and cold-weather testing was done in Minnesota as well as in Alaska. In addition, cooling and brake tests were performed in Death Valley, high-altitude testing was done in the Colorado Rockies, and performance tuning was conducted in Japan, at the famed Nürburgring circuit in Germany and at Virginia International Raceway, where the TL SH-AWD® proved highly competitive with its premium class competitors.
Acura engineers conducted extensive validation testing of the new 6-speed manual transmission equipped TL SH-AWD®. Whether driven on a roadway or racetrack, reliable performance was as of equal importance as overall vehicle performance.
During testing and evaluation, Acura engineers spent much time analyzing and comparing the TL SH-AWD® 6MT to other vehicles in its competitive set. The TL falls in a unique category whereby it has more passenger/cargo volume than vehicles such as a BMW 3-series or Mercedes C-class, yet it is has less cargo volume than a BMW 5-series or Mercedes E-class. However, based on the engineering goal to build a vehicle that would outperform competitive set sedans regardless of size or price, the TL SH-AWD® 6MT track testing focused on the best handling versions of each manufacturer's model. In all cases, this meant the smaller, lighter models (such as BMW 3-series).
Competitive Vehicles
Engine/Horsepower Drivetrain
Acura TL SH-AWD® 6MT 3.7L V-6, 305 hp AWD
Audi A4 2.0L I-4, 211 hp AWD
Audi S4 3.0L V-6, supercharged, 333 hp AWD
Audi A6 3.2L V-6, 255 hp AWD
BMW 335i 3.0L I-6, twin-turbo, 300 hp RWD
BMW 335xi 3.0L I-6, twin-turbo, 300 hp AWD
BMW 535i 3.0L I-6, twin-turbo, 300 hp RWD
Infiniti G37 Sport 3.7L V-6, 328 hp RWD
Infiniti M35 3.5L V-6, 303 hp RWD
Infiniti M35x 3.5L V-6, 303 hp AWD
Mercedes C300 Sport 3.0L V-6, 228 hp RWD
Mercedes C300 4Matic Sport 3.0L V-6, 228 hp AWD
Mercedes E350 Sport 3.5L V-6, 268 hp RWD
Mercedes E350 4Matic Sport 3.5L V-6, 268 hp AWD
TL SH-AWD® 6MT testing occurred at a variety of locations including at Virginia International Raceway as well as at Honda R&D Americas' own Transportation Research Center (TRC), a 1.6-mile, 15-turn road course (designed by renowned track designer Alan Wilson) that was specifically built to highlight challenging handling characteristics including quick corner transitions along with increasing and decreasing radius turns.
The goal of the TL SH-AWD® 6MT was to generate an extremely neutral handling vehicle that provides great feedback to the driver along with excellent predictability. Often times, all-wheel-drive vehicles provide more overall traction but are saddled with a heavier feel and a pronounced amount of understeer. With front-wheel-drive, typically there is a constant battle with understeer which dramatically hampers handling performance. Rear-wheel-drive traditionally delivers quick road course times, but requires a skilled driver to manage the constant transitions between understeer and oversteer. During testing, although the BMW 335i and Infiniti G35 Sport generated similar (yet slower) lap times, the driving level required to achieve the times came with a constant threat of an oversteer-generated spin-out. In short, a driver of average skill level will be able to drive the TL SH-AWD® 6MT much closer to its handling limits without fear of a spin as compared to if the same driving skill level were applied to any of the TL's competitors.
In lateral g-force acceleration testing on a 200-foot diameter dry skidpad, the TL SH-AWD® 6MT effortlessly outperformed all competitive set sedans as the 6-speed manual transmission TL generates an impressive 0.96 g in clockwise direction driving and 0.97 g in counterclockwise driving. For comparison, the TL SH-AWD® 6MT generates more lateral grip than some exotic supercars.
All said, the TL SH-AWD® 6MT proves highly competitive not only within its premium class competitors-regardless of engine size, transmission style, or drivetrain design-but also amongst much more powerful and more expensive limited-edition sport edition sedans offered by competitors.
Last edited by winstrolvtec; 04-01-2010 at 09:08 PM.
04-02-2010, 07:43 AM
#235
Banned
A few notes.
- Only one in four editors chose the S4 as his choice. Despite its competence, there is not much love for the S4.
- The three others chose a RWD car, two opted for the 335i, the easiest car to love.
- At this range of price (going 50K$), give me a F10 2011 535i (50475$ including destination charges) instead . One must be crazy to buy a 4-cyl. A4/A5 Audi at 45K$+.
-Finally after two decades and multiple aggressive challenges, Germans still >>> Japaneses despite better technology.
- Only one in four editors chose the S4 as his choice. Despite its competence, there is not much love for the S4.
- The three others chose a RWD car, two opted for the 335i, the easiest car to love.
- At this range of price (going 50K$), give me a F10 2011 535i (50475$ including destination charges) instead . One must be crazy to buy a 4-cyl. A4/A5 Audi at 45K$+.
-Finally after two decades and multiple aggressive challenges, Germans still >>> Japaneses despite better technology.
04-02-2010, 08:00 AM
#236
Punk Rocker
I just realized but there is only .4 a second difference in the times of the TL, G37, and 335i! That small a disparity could easily be down to driver error or some other insignificant factor. Dynamically speaking this is a virtual push. The only car with a statistically significant time (over a second faster than the others) is the S4. For the purposes of this (heated) argument, however, we should wait until some other sources of info come in on this debate....
04-02-2010, 08:02 AM
#237
^^^not to beat a dead horse that's already been beaten a trillion after it has already decayed into a rotten carcass but in the eyes of many the GT-R suffers the same issue that the 4G does, and whether or not you like that aspect of the GT-R/4G, it should be obvious what that "issue" is..... otherwise it wouldn't be an issue at all.
I have liked Nissans all throughout high school and still do, and am a rabid Skyline fan, ever since I first bought an R32 GT-R in Gunmetal Gray....... in Gran Turismo 1, that is. One of my projects in my freshman year of high school was a presentation on the history of the Skyline, which stretches back to almost when the very first Corvette was produced.
I have educated many of my family and friends when it comes to Hondas and Acuras, including the 2G and 3G TLs, and are usually the devil's advocate if you will when it comes to discussions between an Infiniti/MB/BMW/Audi of which many of my friends own vs. an Acura product.... but I just can't truly side with Acura this one time.
That said.... I'm not saying it hasn't ever happened, but a person seriously cross-shopping an S4 with a GT-R is probably not commonplace.
I think what would really be interesting is if someone broke down the individual sales of the TL SH-AWD (and the TL FWD) vs. the 335i sedan/coupe? (and including the 335xi for comparison) vs. the G37 coupe?/sedan/X vs. the S4, then all the A4/A5? variants in parentheses together. IMO ultimately price wins out, as well as "newness" I guess. G37S coupes are a dime a dozen around here, in fact a friend of mine just got one a while back, and my cousin got one herself recently too. TL FWDs are popping up more often now, and I can count how many SH-AWDs I've seen on one hand.
that the 4G does, and whether or not you like that aspect of the GT-R/4G, it should be obvious what that "issue" is..... otherwise it wouldn't be an issue at all.I have liked Nissans all throughout high school and still do, and am a rabid Skyline fan, ever since I first bought an R32 GT-R in Gunmetal Gray....... in Gran Turismo 1, that is. One of my projects in my freshman year of high school was a presentation on the history of the Skyline, which stretches back to almost when the very first Corvette was produced.
I have educated many of my family and friends when it comes to Hondas and Acuras, including the 2G and 3G TLs, and are usually the devil's advocate if you will when it comes to discussions between an Infiniti/MB/BMW/Audi of which many of my friends own vs. an Acura product.... but I just can't truly side with Acura this one time.
That said.... I'm not saying it hasn't ever happened, but a person seriously cross-shopping an S4 with a GT-R is probably not commonplace.
I think what would really be interesting is if someone broke down the individual sales of the TL SH-AWD (and the TL FWD) vs. the 335i sedan/coupe? (and including the 335xi for comparison) vs. the G37 coupe?/sedan/X vs. the S4, then all the A4/A5? variants in parentheses together. IMO ultimately price wins out, as well as "newness" I guess. G37S coupes are a dime a dozen around here, in fact a friend of mine just got one a while back, and my cousin got one herself recently too. TL FWDs are popping up more often now, and I can count how many SH-AWDs I've seen on one hand.
04-02-2010, 08:06 AM
#238
A few notes.
- Only one in four editors chose the S4 as his choice. Despite its competence, there is not much love for the S4.
- The three others chose a RWD car, two opted for the 335i, the easiest car to love.
- At this range of price (going 50K$), give me a F10 2011 535i (50475$ including destination charges) instead . One must be crazy to buy a 4-cyl. A4/A5 Audi at 45K$+.
-Finally after two decades and multiple aggressive challenges, Germans still >>> Japaneses despite better technology.
- Only one in four editors chose the S4 as his choice. Despite its competence, there is not much love for the S4.
- The three others chose a RWD car, two opted for the 335i, the easiest car to love.
- At this range of price (going 50K$), give me a F10 2011 535i (50475$ including destination charges) instead . One must be crazy to buy a 4-cyl. A4/A5 Audi at 45K$+.
-Finally after two decades and multiple aggressive challenges, Germans still >>> Japaneses despite better technology.
04-02-2010, 08:26 AM
#239
Banned
04-02-2010, 08:35 AM
#240
Yes, a car which is not readily available in Japan, was designed in Torrance, California and built on an assembly line in Marysville, Ohio, is Japanese.