majin ssj eric

Uhh, I take it you haven't seen my S5 test drive review???

I didn't see a SINGLE S4 for $50k (the S5 I drove was $63k!!!!)...

majin ssj eric

Lol, thats exactly why I bought my Infiniti! I just couldn't justify spending $10k+ more on a 335i...

George Knighton

Before I bought my TL, I took the time to cross shop. I knew that my next car was going to be AWD...and there was no car that did what the TL did, and had the technology the TL had, that didn't cost at least $10,000 more.

Vectoring AWD is still relatively rare.

mrmako

This is true... I can not get the 335i for less than $72K brand new...Yes, that is the dollar price here, no options.

The S4 is $84K starting price

And the Skyline 370GT (G37) is $43,800

The TL was not sold here since the 2G.

And you wonder why a lot of folks here buy domestic (Japan that is).

JnC

iTrader: (12)

Really digging that G37's new fascia

turkeybaster115

iTrader: (1)

I have driven an RL with SH-AWD, and I own a Audi A6 Quattro, and all I can say, is that I really missed my torsen center differential, when driving the "SH-AWD". This is especially pronounced when launching from a stand still in water. The heavy RWD bias of SH-AWD really shows itself, where as the audi just launches clean with its 50/50 torque split. Now you've spent sometime in your SH-AWD TL, you really need significant track time with the 335I, and Audi A6, before you comment further.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

sucks for that Audi dealership then

Maybe S14 n TSX can chime in later because he was the salesmen at downtown LA Audi when my gf bought her B8 A4 Avant about 5 months ago.

There were number of brand new S4s under $50k.

George Knighton

You probably missed several posts where I indicated that I have been on the track for two days with the current 335i. I have also been on the track with an A4 and an S4 of the current generation.

I have not been on the track with an A6 and all I really know is that they're beyond the price range in which I was shopping! :-) They were nice to tool around in on test drives, but it was impossible to seriously consider one.

You hedged a bet by qualifying your 335i comments with "significant," meaning for your readers to infer that it's only after spending a great amount of time on the track that people will learn how to get around a TL 6-6. There were a lot of other people on the track with me, and we were changing up cars. One of the drivers has a significant racing history with BMW in the USA, and he wasn't faster in the 335i.

The TL SH-AWD handles the rear torque differently from the RL.

There is no acceleration device in the TL. Just a transfer case.

It'll put 70% of the total available torque to the rear in a drag race, assuming that the traction conditions allow it. If the car detect that there is slipping on the rear, it will move more power to the front.

This might or might not work for you, depending on the conditions, inasmuch as there is no LSD on the front to handle the left/right split in an extremely traction-challenged situation.

In short, if I were going on a rally, I might very well pick your A6 instead of the TL. :-)

Costco

@ the thought of this discussion being "heated". This thread qualifies as mild sauce compared to some discussions I've read (and been a part of) in Car talk and compared to Ramblings this thread is like cupcakes with rainbow sprinkles on them.

I'm going to read the rest of the convo in detail later, but nobody is bashing the TL on the (assumed) basis that it's a bad car. Many of us have acknowledged "if only it looked better". It simply doesn't get your heart racing by looking at it like the S4 does.

In fact, a short whole back I posted a pic of buckvegas' car in automotive news to show people that the 4G had potential lookwise. And indeed, I truly thought his car looked good. But I would be very, very hard pressed to turn down a 335i and take a 4G instead. No improvements performance-wise to make the 4G more appealing and yet still competitive with regards to price could possibly make me want the 4G more, unless they did a full redesign of the exterior.

docboy

Same here.

The 2010 S4's I've seen for sale ranged from $58k-$63k.

There was a decked out 2010 A4 approaching $50k.

Pete2010

+1 If I saw a loaded prestige 2010 s4 for under 50k I would have bought that. Instead they were all just under 60k.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

jiggaman

sorry if this has been asked already, but why wasn't the AWD version from infinity and BMW in this comparo?

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

Of course you can't get the fully loaded prestige, because it has so many tech goodies and other pretty much useless craps that are only worthy for old people.

The car has almost $15k worth of options. You can basically pick and choose the options you want to and order the fking car. What's so hard about it? And I'm telling you I personally checked out at least four S4s that were priced under $50k at this Audi dealership.

Sick of hearing people complaining about Audi's pricing.

Crazy Bimmer

Does no one use www.audiusa.com ?

Pricing is there for all different configurations. Starts from $46k.... so its possible to get it for under $50k if you dont option it out like whoa. That even before any haggling.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

^ They just don't get it.

It's the 4G TL owner thing.

woooooooooooah our 4G TL FTW! everything else is overpriced ghey craps. who gets german craps anyway right?? SH-AWD>>>>> all other AWD drive system VTEC KICKED IN YO our 4G TL pwned all 335i and G37S at this track!!! yay its okay S4 is just overpriced pig.

what a bunch of ignorant noobs

JM2010 SH-AWD

/\ These types of comments - personal attacks on fellow A'ziners -- are hardly helpful. Give it a rest, will you dude?

Pete2010

Easy chief, every one is being civil here. I don't think anyone said anything like that...I could easily say crap about you driving a Mazda, but I'm not that petty.
I don't think my TL is better than a BMW or Audi, except it's cheaper and more reliable.

Please tell me how you compare a fully loaded TL @ 38k to a BASE S4? No leather/Nav/Sport Diff, etc... Seriously, I'm going to spend 50k on a car with no leather? If I was cheap speed I'll get something else.

When comparing cars I compared with the same options, Leather, Nav, rear diff. Puts it's over 50k.

Again, you bought a Mazda, where is your s4? You're not telling that you didn't buy it partially because of price?

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

maybe I should have added "some" 4G TL owners.

but really i'm just sick and tired of some of these 4G TL owners who don't even try to listen to other fellow A'ziners.

This thread was on the right track until some of them came in here to "defend" its beloved 4G TL.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

I really have no clue why Mazda is being brought out here in this thread.

Anyway, I'm done here.

Oh yeah, again, audiusa.com is free to use. base S4 comes with leather.... not that it matters much but i'm just pointing out the fact that you have no idea how this S4 is packaged and whatnot. Research before you bash on something.

btomcik

Zoom-zoom -- someone must have been owned by a TL today and is PMSing about it. So sad.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?! lol...
People hated on the car first...and the people that spent almost 40K on it came back to defend their purchase with a vengeance.

I got picked on in middle school and came back with a tremendous attitude later in life. Lol...now, I'm more laid back. It is what it is.

Ironically enough I often think of maybe getting a 4G one day...or even a Mazdaspeed 3 too. For the price, you really can't beat all you get in your car. In my mind, minus a few key features it's an STI but with 15K knocked off the sticker price! lol. I've also thought..."dang" I love driving and they call the BMW the driver's car, right? So I look at used M3's...the ones I used to drool over in college when I couldn't afford one and now use, they are in range. Hmmm...or I could just continue to love my 3G and remind myself that at some point enough is enough...fast enough...good enough gas mileage...good enough looks...low enough...new enough. That way I keep more money in the bank!

Anyway. Let's all hug it out and get back to what the thread originally was started for.

Pete2010

Hey Man, sorry, I didn't mean to be saying anything bad about anyone or their car.

I do believe that most of the time people aren't reading the thread, they're just talking... so it's a lot of talking back and forth and not conversation. The key point I was trying to say, was that per audiusa.com - A similarly equipped S4 compared to TL is still like 52k. Let's say you get that down to 48k. The TL's are selling now for 38k. 10k is a pretty big difference.

So it's not like we are ignorant or irrational about it being more expensive. It is more expensive. But is it 10k more of a car than the TL - hell yea. I wish I would have bought one, but I'll be kicking myself in a few years if I had a depreciated car instead of 10k plus interest.

I bought the car I wanted, you bought the car you wanted... we both win here.

George Knighton

But remember you need to add the vectoring AWD for most of the people posting to believe it is competing with the same technology. Right?

nova_G

Not trying to stir the pot or anything, bored at work so I decided to go to Acura.com, Audiusa.com, BMWUSA.com, Infiniti.com and price out each car to my liking (what I consider fully loaded):

Acura TL SH-AWD w/ Tech Pkg. $42,385
-Back Up Sensors $260
-Back Up Sensor Attachment $260
-19" Chrome-Look Alloy Wheels $2360
-Acura Recommended Tires $1,262
-Front/Rear/Side Under Body Spoilers $1180
-All Season Protection Pkg. $324
-Destination $810

Total: $48,841

Audi S4 Prestige $52,000
-Silk Nappa Leather with Blk/Red Interior $1000
-Driver Assist Pkg. $900
-Audi Drive Select (Sports Diff Included) Pkg. $3950
-Wheels Locks $80
-Destination $825

Total: $58,755

BMW 335XI $42,600
-Cold Weather Pkg. $1000
-Premium Pkg.
-Sports Pkg.
-18" Allow Wheels w/ Performance Tires
-Comfort Access Keyless Entry $500
-Navigation $2100
-Anti-theft Alarm System $400
-Automatic High Beams $250
-Parking Distance Control $750
-Destination $750

Total: $53,075

Infiniti G37X $36,050
-Tech Pkg. $1150
-Premium Pkg. $2150
-Sports Pkg. $1100
-Navigation Pkg. $1850
-Splash Guards $170
-Midnight Black Grille $420
-Carpeted Trunk Mat $105
-Trunk Net $60
-Illuminated Kick Plates $350
-Rear Decklid Spoiler $560
-Vehicle Alarm Impact Sensor $130
-Destination $865

Total: $44,960

Note: These prices are strictly all off the website(s) and are all similarly equipped. This doesn't include any type of discounts any local dealerships are giving out.

winstrolvtec

This isn't to defend the TL but you can just the same opt for the HPT package for $1k and get PS2 tires and 19's and you don't really need back up sensors when you have a camera. Just the same there is no body kit for the other vehicles and you could lose about $1k of stuff in the G. So a $44k TL SH w/ HPT and $44k G37x are equivalent products compared to the rest. That's why when and if using a strict pricing category while remaining best similarly equipped the 335 and S4 don't fit, instead it's the A4 and 328. You can get a stripper 335 and S4 but that's not really apples to apples.

mrmako

So if pricing were the same on all three, which one is the car to get? I say the S4.

Pete2010

Without question. Hell, If I could get the similarly equipped S4 (read: loaded) for 50k I would have got that instead. I thought I read somewhere that the dyno numbers showed that car made even more power than they thought. Nothing like 0-6 in under 5sec on your way to the grocery store.

winstrolvtec

If price, level of equipment, packages and options were the same on all four I would still choose the TL. Like others, the reasons being I like and need a large mid sized sedan and can't do without a 6MT and AWD right now. In the past I could get away with FWD but don't want to do that anymore. Also really like the fact that it feels softer or toned down and not as on edge all the time while not sacrificing any actual capabilities as opposed to the other vehicles. Perfect balance of luxury and sport feel for my tastes but if those things were the case it would definately make my decision much harder.

The reality is, the only other large mid sized luxury sedan that combines a 6MT and AWD is the BMW 5 series and with the same power and level of equipment as the TL it's $62k. Sure it is more refined but I can't use it and don't really care for that and it does have a select few features more but so does the TL believe it or not and I know I can expect better reliability and a higher resale. Top safety pick and better crash test rating all around doesn't hurt either.

Pete2010

^^ The S4 has 6MT and AWD. I think it's rear-biased, but someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

winstrolvtec

That's right and there are other sedans as well but none as large as the TL that have the combination, besides the 5 series. The TL and other sedans like the 5, A6, and E class are all considered fairly large mid sized sedans, the S4 is a small mid, boarderline compact. For example, the S4 has 91 cu ft of interior volume, the TSX has 94.5 and although they are classified as mid sized, their counterparts are still much larger mid sized sedans. The TL has 98.2 cu ft, the 5 has 99, the A6 98.

Fibonacci

Why not throw the R8 in there for the same price.

I get a kick outta these smack talk threads. Let's be honest, there isn't a pig in the bunch. Personally, I don't think the S4 is worth an extra $20 gizzle for the same content and marginally better performance - its simply not worth it to me as a DD since I'm not tracking the car to and from work.

As for the TL, I was laughing at the shnozz, plenum, bucktooth - whatever you want to call it too...until I drove one. For a five gizzle ugly discount off MSRP - you are getting one helluva deal.

NJ SHAWD

If I could have picked up a loaded M37x for $38,000 I would have bought that, but it isn't going to happen.

OK, go ahead...I'm waiting

majin ssj eric

Werd.

What JS doesn't seem able to comprehend is that if I'm spending $46k+ for a car I don't want the stripped out base version. Period. Optioned the way the other cars are, the S4 is completely ridiculous price-wise. Its still an amazing car, I just wish Audi would come back down to earth with their pricing....

subinf

So sensitive

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

Damn man.

What you don't seem able to comprehend is that the stripped out base version of B8 S4 isn't really "stripped", alright? IF this was B8 "A4", yes it can really be stripped with a pretty low base price. However, the most stripped base version of S4 still comes with so many options because it is already at Premium Plus trim. Do you get that?

All cars have different base options that come with it. It's how companies plan out the packages. It's all part of the business strategy.

Why can't you get this??

I agree with you to some degree about the ridiculous pricing point, but I just wish you would understand where I'm coming from just a little bit.

Shift_Acura

S4 without a question...but thats a pretty big IF

cp3117

Actually the times are posted at the beginning of each vehicles review.

I dont think people thought that Honda fixed the event by tampering with the vehicles (I sure hope they didnt), but is was definitely a staged event back then obviously for marketing reasons. When you invite journalists to your own track with cars not picked or prepped by the journalists and they aren't allowed to bring there own timing instruments or perform any independent tests other than the track test.........well i think its easy for anyone to see the bias there. Everyone knew who the winner would be before the ink was even dry on the invite. This test by R&T (Who originally where at the Honda event) actually proves that as the TL performed very well (best independent test yet) but the track numbers where much closer than the exaggerated results from the Honda test in 2008 due to the fact they where using current models in this test.

The majority of us do understand what your saying. I do find it funny how some are referring to the Audi premium pkg as a "stripper" model though. They make the S4 sound like it has crank windows, manual locks and a milk crate for seats.

If people go to the web sites and look at the std features and option packages for the different models, you would quickly see when comparably equipped the S4 is the same price as a 335Xi and with more features. The TL and the G are roughly $7-10K less than the S4. Some of this is due to tariffs, cost of the Euro etc (especially compared to the TL). Weather someone believe's that the extra features you get with the S4 is worth that few extra grand above the other costs i already mentioned is upto the individual but the S4 is not $15 or $20K more expensive when COMPARABLY equipped.....The S4 is selling very well, do people actually think it would if it was really that much more?

This comparo didnt take price into consideration probably due to this fact as they have little control on what the manufactures send them....These comparo's always go sideways in these forums when people have different ideas on what comparably equipped means. One example is when someone above made a list and put the upgraded $1000 leather package in the S4 (which includes full leather seat, panels, armrest etc) which vehicles like the TL dont even offer but now consider them equal.......Whats wrong with the standard leather seating surface in the S4 which is the same as all the other models offer?

mrmako

I went to the Audi web site and selected an S4 with only the following options:

Rear Diff upgrade, B&O Stereo, 5 spoke wheels w/ Summer tires.

So a car with leather, more power than I can handle, a 6MT, AWD, and a very good stereo is $50K. I don't need navigation and all the other stuff.

I'm not dragging up the price issue because I was interested in the purely car aspect. If I wanted a large sedan that had AWD, there are only a few cars that are in that category: E series MB, 5 seriesBMW, TL, RL, A6 series.

In the small family sedan series (where a wagon variant is OK, but no hatch) I would say the A4, 3 series BMW, Legacy, Mazda 6, C class MB.

Those, in my opinion, are the classes that are a direct comparison. Hell, I'm getting killed by Car Talk guys, and I'm a Car Talk vet (a few years in here)...

majin ssj eric

You guys are forgetting my personal aversion to buying any luxury car without navigation. It is an absolute non-starter for me. I agree that thats not the case with alot of people but I would HAVE to have nav in any car I was spending this much money in. Here is the pricing for the S4 most comparable to the others:

Audi S4 7AT (I know its dual clutch but I need an auto) - 47300
MMI navigation package - 2500
Sports diff (standard in the TL SHAWD and G37S) - 1100
B&O premium sound (comparable to ELS, Logic 7, Bose of others) - 850
-----------
Total with desination - 53050

Thats certainly not $20k more than the others like has been said, but it is a SIGNIFICANT amount of money. Take in to consideration Audi's weak leasing offers and you're looking at $200-300 more per month than the others (even the 335i which still has great leasing terms).

This is all just my consideration. Others may not mind the extra cost, may not care about leasing, may think the performance justifies the price, etc. Take it for what its worth...