Pete2010

Lots of heated conversation here.

I think the issue here is the image problem that Acura/Honda has been having for almost 20 years now. Take a look at every generation of the Accord/Civic/TL - They all look totally different. With Audi/MB/BMW/Porsche they all have a singular style that has lasted for 30-40-50years. Honda/Acura seems to change everything every 5-6 years or so keeping very little or nothing from the past.

The 4G is not a looker, by any means. I've taken steps to make it look significantly better than it was with the RJ grille and getting the headlights done. But the key thing with this car, I don't see the outside when I'm whipping around corners in 2nd gear.

But for a daily driver, it's the perfect car for ME. Is is the best car ever? NO, does it have some faults?, yup. I got it for AWD and MT and reliability (I need to hit at least 150k miles with little issue). Once my start-up gets acquired, I'll be looking for a Lotus Exige S or a GT3 or some fast ass, hot looking ride. The 4G will stay as a daily driver.

F23A4

Actually, the wife and I are in the market for a premium sedan (albeit pre-owned) to augment the use of our 09 MDX. As such, we've driven enough E60s, W211s, C6s, 1G Fugas and 2G Aristos to get a good feel for our preference. (Though I'm not a huge fan of the brand -- yet -- the A6 seems to have the most appeal to us.)

That said, the other 4G TL proponent mentioned the comparison with respect to vehicle sizing:

As for the BMW reference, I've not drank the BMW Kool-Aid (so to speak) but have spent some drive time in a number of their models (i.e.: E90 328i, 335i, E70 4.8, E60 530i, 545i, 550i, 745Li and 750Li.) Each of these models DO have a sport driving feel to them that (to my experience) only Infiniti seems to emulate best (G vs 3 series), with an honorable mention of the Acura MDX vs X5. However, this is all fairly subjective.

In any event (and this portion I'm in Mod-mode), the problem here as I see it is that some of those with opposing or divergent points of view are being labeled as somewhat obtuse. It's quite possible that more articulation of said point(s) may be required but to be dismissive of those who disagree with a point of view as unenlightened numbskulls is disingenous and insulting. As such, the tone of this thread has taken the persona of the R&P subforum. There just needs to be an 'agree to disagree' moment here.

F23A4

Fair enough. No doubt, it should eaily go the distance you're looking for without m(any) setbacks.

George Knighton

ROFL.... Now you're just being silly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSkWkAXdSyI&NR=1

If you are accusing us of being disingenuous, then you have caused an offence yourself and we cannot proceed.

Perhaps you should clarify if you really intended to cause offence.

Pete2010

I think he means that it is illogical to try and quantify feelings or the looks of a car. Take the GT-R for example, many people here think that car is ugly (but many others disagree because of the performance). Personally, I saw some shots of the new BMW (2012 maybe) with the giant ass nostrils. And I think that looks ugly, someone else may not.

There is a reason they make so many different types of cars, because so many people have a personal opinion about it. I like the fact that there are not many of the 4G's rolling around, plus due to the price, you don't see them all riced out like some 3g's out there. (again - personal preference on looks).

Personally, I think the 4G TL AWD MT, is the most underrated car Acura has ever made (I've had a 07 TL-S and a 04 TSX). The performance on this thing is just crazy, and I think if you haven't test drove one, you should try it and see. Again, it's not perfect, but it's one hell of a ride, and a totally different car even from the AT version. (Lighter, stiffer/sportier ride, faster)

When the Comptech SC comes out for the MT - watch out, that is going to be sub 5 seconds easily.

Crazy Bimmer

Ok my last post since it seems being a mod i am not allowed to share my opinions? None of the mods here has posted as if they were in a higher power. No threats of being banned or locking the thread by anyone. The topic is civil and most of the mods here are NOT attacking any member. Some might take it too seriously but remember that bashing a CAR is not attacking a member. Its all matter of opinion and some of us are just stubborn, doesnt mean we flexing any power of ours.

We are mods and still members of this site, not Acura sales people.

Kingston, for the most part the members in car talks ARE potential customers for Acura and many of us here had honda products. Myself included, NSX, S2k, Snowblower and a TL. Let alone my father has had 4 RLs, mom had TSX, brother has a MDX. We still very loyal to the Honda product line and respect what they offer. Hell my next car will most likely be a honda minivan. For the most part they offer great value for a quality product. TL just is just priced now in a tough segment.

I might have sound heated but really wasnt, i slept well. Im fine with someone with their opinion if a certain car needs this or that. There are times i want to reply and just want to share my experience with the car that might differ. Thats all. Same as how the TL owners are doing with the article of R&T. No difference really. You arent seeing me calling others miscreants or ignorant for not agreeing with me.

Its the internet, none of us are that heated in this thread. Trust me.

George Knighton

Calling somebody ignorant is not an assault on anybody's character. It is an honest observation. Ignorance can be honest, and the writer went out of the way to suggest that the ignorance was honest.

Ignorance is the state of not having enough information.

It is not any kind of character assassination.

Calling a group of people miscreants without attaching anybody's name to the group is a judgement on the writer's part. It is a judgement he is allowed to make based on his observation of the progress of the thread and the general character of the discussion.

Calling a particular person disingenuous [sic] is a direct attack on an individual's character, and that is not something a writer is allowed to do.

When one does this, especially when there is cause to believe that research has been done regarding the person whom he is addressing, one exceeds his social competence, and that is pretty much all there is to it. :-)

It is not really necessary to continue the discussion if you do not want to do it.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

Everyone has an opinion. But opinions are fickle...and often should be honestly self reevaluated. I used to not like the 4G. But after seeing it lately, even with the OEM grill unpainted...I tend to think it's a nice looking car. I totally agree with the guy saying we can't argue our opinions.

If you're honest with yourself and subjective enough...you'll openly admit that something has some, if not all, of the qualities you'd look for in a car. At this point in the game...after seeing what Pete and Blackura are doing with the new body style...I can't help but think people are just repeating things to repeat them Either not forming their own opinions and just saying what the majority are saying...or they just form their opinion initially and refuse to change for the sake of argument. I'm getting tired of hearing about how ugly the 4G is. And I'm a 3G owner.

As far as Honda/Acura totally reconfiguring the styling of all their cars every 4 years instead of sticking with a recognizable shape...for me, as a consumer, I see that as a selling point. I LIKE that the new body style is something you've never seen before and not more of the same.

But then again...that is just my opinion

lol

George Knighton

It has certainly worked well for them in the past.

When you look at what Ford is doing recently, however, and when you look at some of the GM stuff on the horizon, I think that we can look forward to some very stiff competition from the "American" car companies, and this might cause AHM to change how it is designing its cars in the future.

Some of what we're seeing in 2009/2010 is the result of Honda's horror at being associated with the F&F phenomenon. They refused to be a part of the resulting horsepower wars, and took a big step back and away from its previous enthusiast base, and deliberately went after safety.

Safety For Everyone was the buzz phrase and a very important programme right after F&F hit the scene.

And right when they were about to break out again, addressing enthusiasts who'd been holding out with their DC2 ITR, old NSX's and S2000's, the world economy collapsed.

It's as if they're voluntarily skipping what was supposed to be the next phase, almost pretending it doesn't exist, and going right on to the next phase, the hybrid and alternative technology phase.

But it's hard to forget that the rear-bias SH-AWD chassis is already designed, and that they have that twin-cam V8 and V10 on the shelves.

Maybe...one day.... :-)

fsttyms1

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

Let's not forget that MONSTER K20A3 motor they put in the EP3 for gas savings. lol...
I owned one...got 22mpg at it's best and it wasn't even fast. Lol...

astro

But you are held to a higher standard, and posting throughout a thread with your own personal attitude directed at members is not acceptable.

This.

Actually, as this is not Ramblings, perhaps it's you who should realize that as a site representative, you're expected to be sensitive to everyone in a thread, not just your own view.

F23A4

My apologies if I came across as abrasive or unprofessional.

NJ SHAWD

Thank you. I've been a mod at another forum. I understand it's a difficult and thankless job.

F23A4

Indeed, though I still say the 4G TL is unattractive, I never meant to come off like a 'male extremity' in making the point.

NJ SHAWD

No problem, your opinion is still only that, and means nothing to anyone else.

astro

Pete2010

I have to say, it's great how passionate we all are about cars. That's what brings us here, our singular love for anything with an engine and 4 wheels (and sometimes 3 or 2).

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

so.. back on topic

S4 >>>335i>>>>G37S>>>>4G TL for me

Pete2010

If I felt like spending whatever I wanted on my new car (and not whatever my wife wanted), almost.

For me.
S4 - the new one, supercharged >> 335xi (small on the inside but balls out fast, but would need to lease it so I don't deal with it post 50k miles.) >> 4G (what I got) >> G37S (no MT with their AWD , didn't like the interior/nav).

/thread

NJ SHAWD

For me:
It was a matter of practicality meets performance. I have to entertain customers on a regular basis, so I needed more room than can be found in the S4, the 335 or the G. I also drive 40,000 miles per year so I need a car that won't fall apart or kill me maintaining it. It doesn't make sense to blow $50k on an M, 5 or A6 series for the bigger size, with the kind of mileage I drive, so the best answer was the TL. It may not be the prettiest of the bunch, but it does stand out.

So for me 4G>S4>G37>335xi

Embrace the ugliness!

winstrolvtec

It's illogical because you are coming from a mindset of the TL being ugly based purely as your opinion and calling it reality when it is only your reality. That may not be the case for someone else, it seems the problem is that most of the Car Talk fans don't consider that because the majority feel the same way and maybe you have lost site of that. I am not trying to be offensive and don't want to come off that way, I am just trying to make a point. It's subjective and it's why people still live in what you might call an ugly house or date an unattractive female. More importantly it's why the TL is still a highly competitive sedan in the market even amongst so called better looking sedans in it's price range.

I hope from my above response you can see why a discussion based purely around opinions has it's faults. The problem with opinion or subjective based discussion is that people form an emotional attachment to their opinion because as George pointed out it is a feeling and as you can see as a prime example, this thread has gone completely downhill as a result of that. Opinions are relevant, not trying to make it sound like they are not, but not so useful (at least to me) because I already know how I feel about something and respect that someone may feel differently without assuming either side is wrong for having it. Maybe I was wrong to assume the same of everyone else here.

Although boring in your opinion, an objective discussion usually doesn't result to this extent of offense opinions, name calling and pointing fingers, unless it's brought here to Car Talk. Really, what is there more to talk about with subjectivity in mind? Who likes it/what, who doesn't, who agrees and who disagrees. Truth is you need both but everyone can be more aware to leave the offensive stuff or wording aside, unless they are trying to start the issue. There was a normal somewhat enlightening discussion taking place mostly about the review and a few owners and former owners of the actual cars in the comparo added some further comments and perspectives of the 3 series, the G and not just the TL.

It really wasn't until someone decided to say who cares about the TL because it's ugly is when the everyone lost the thread. I have a fairly negative opinion of the 3 series looks but you don't see me posting that all over this thread because it looks decent enough and is a great car for it's purpose. It doesn't keep me from discussing everything and anything else about the vehicle. Opinions do nothing more than breed conflict because of differences. Logical differences can be reasoned, emotional ones usually cannot. You say opinions are welcome here as long as they are not offensive but think criticizing the 4G in the 4G threads is not offensive to any degree? Likewise people here don’t seem so unsupportive of an offensive opinion when they all agree. I actually think that’s ok and for the most part Car Talk is the place for that kind of thing but you can’t expect 4G members or anyone else to not stick up for themselves.

Doesn't really bother me that you find I have contributed nothing to this thread as I already know I have made more relevant discussion, comments and sense than most ever do here and I am not trying to be offensive. Everyone is capable of forming their own opinions and can choose not to be biased but I hope you are not suggesting that of the 4G community because that is obviously wrong. Look right here and see just how much bashing the 4G TL takes and tell me again how the 4G guys are generally biased and can't form their own opinion. If that was the case we probably wouldn't own one. While maybe defensive at times and based on the events that have take place here, rightfully so, but most are far from biased.

It's obvious the majority of 4G members and Car Talk members have different tastes in discussion and aside from the occasional thread we know this and form our boarders but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to be civil and conscience of each other when we do share the same discussion.

btomcik

Zzzzzz...OMG how long did it take you to type that?

LOL I love this crap.

A Ford Taurus will never be in a comparison test with these four cars, or cars similar to these four for the very reason that it's a Ford.

The SHO will probably have the same fate as the VW Phaeton - who's gonna pay $44k for a Ford when you can get a TL, 335, A4 or G37?

335xi >> >>>>>>>>>>>> 2010 Mazdaspeed3 Black Mica for me.

pdd00

Well I think the 4G is nice looking and think the G37 is ugly and thought the interior was ugly. So, to each his own. I test drove the 3G and thought it was out dated looking. My sister has a bmw 3 series xi and its way to small inside for me and rides like a wheelbarrel. The audi is priced way to high. So I bought the 4G, which I'm enjoying and wont look back .

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

how about ?

majin ssj eric

Again, can we just keep the TL threads out of Cartalk????

Danil ACE

Funny to see the beaked walrus drivers getting so uptight. But yeah I agree, this topic should be locked.

charliemike

Jeezus ... Can the geezers go back to their tapioca and let those of us that still enjoy life resume our infantile banter?

PLEASE?

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

I don't see a problem but dang...it seems like there are so many threads on here that end the same way. I'd honsestly love to have any of the 4 cars on the list. Just can't afford any of them new so I'll have to be patient like I was to get my 3G.

subinf

How did all the 4G guys make it over here? This was a Car Talk thread.

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

What is it with you guys? Everyone is welcome here. Knock it off.

majin ssj eric

I still wonder why the S4 gets a pass on its ridiculous price. Sure you could possibly buy a stripped one for $53k or so (if you could even find one), but then would it have beaten the others with no features? Sure its a great car, but Audi's pricing structure boggles my mind. The price-equivalent Audi to the G and TL is the 2.0t A4 which would just be annihilated by either car. The price-equivalent cars to the S4 are the M3 and C63 AMG which would, again, annihilate the Audi.

In other words, the proper comparison for this article would have been TL/G37/335i/A4. My personal results would then be:

335i>G37>TL>A4 (this is assuming the TL has the full RJ treatment of course)....

Danil ACE

328i is more in the range of G37 imo...

subinf

I don't think price was the main purpose of the article. I got the impression they were comparing the range of 6 cylinder sedans. I hope.

docboy

What's wrong with "4G guys" coming over on Car Talk?

I was under the impression Acurazine was an open forum.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

Audi intentionally down positioned its S4 to be in this segment when they decided to kill the V6 A4.

And S4 Premium Plus with Manual Transmission's starting price starts at $46K. And it comes with shitload of options. The only key performance options it need to have are rear differential (like $1K) and Drive Select ($4K).

And dude, have you even been to Audi dealership? This downtown LA Audi had like 4-5 S4 that were priced around $50K, some of them were under $50K. Don't bash something, if you don't even know what you are talking about.

This. Yes. I've been saying it and the article's introductory paragraphs explain this.

subinf

It is. I didn't mean anything by it at all. I was just curious how this thread took off with the 4G stuff when it was posted over here. It has been my experience, as a member since 2004, that when something starts in Car Talk pretty much the same people post. Not often do a lot of members from a certain section come over.

That was all. Relax. God damn.

subinf

I didn't mean to imply that I was the first one to state that. The article wasn't exactly clear as to what type of comparison they were running and I can't believe R&T would vary that much with prices of sedans if they were doing something else.

docboy

+1

IF I were single, IF I were a smaller frame person, IF I did not care about having kids/wife comfortable in the back seat, IF I only cared about exterior styling, IF I only cared about the TINIEST driving dynamics, IF I didn't mind spending wasting money to maintain a car, and IF I didn't care about a car owning me (instead of me owning the car) ... I could have bought (and ranked tops) the S4 or 335xi.

But since I am married, have a wife and a small child with possibly more on the way, wanted a large and spacious cabin, value my time in the office, value my wife and kid's comfort, value reliability, didn't want to worry about a car nickle and dime-ing me to death, and didn't want to deal with nit picky things breaking down so I couldn't make it to the office... The 4G TL 6MT won easily.

Ever have a car seat and a parent in the back seat at the same time?

Ever have to close the office and reschedule patients because of car troubles?

There are other things in life that come into play.

Not all of us view these cars as a snap shot in life.

In any case, all of the aforementioned cars are fine sports sedans the average Joe would kill to own.

Shift_Acura

S4>335i>RJ TL-SHAWD/G37

The way I see it you only buy the Japenese brands if you cant afford the German stuff