majin ssj eric

Yes, and I'm sure you can easily reach the limits of the 335i's handling on public roads...

Costco

I agree absolutely! Those guys at BMW have no idea what they're doing. They're just like Porsche.... they want you to believe the 320 HP 6MT Cayman S is a great handling car, but they don't even offer an LSD for it! What a joke.... those guys at Porsche are such miscreants.

mrmako

^

F23A4

Man! I really hate miscreants!!

Never Summer

The only reason Porsche did that was because they didn't want the car to come any closer to dethroning the 911 as the top end Porsche. From my understanding the Cayman S handles as good if not better than the 911, they just don't want it to lap any faster.

And yet again, how many people really need a LSD for daily driving? The only one of these cars that I would say absolutely needs it is the S4, and even that's $1,100 on top of an already overlypriced Audi.

dom

I don't doubt the 335 would be helped by a LSD/closed diff or whatever we're calling it.

I just wonder why this thread is the first time I've heard this issue come up.

George Knighton

I refer the gentleman to the answer I gave a moment ago.

It is very easy to exceed the rear axle limits of a 335i in regular driving on public roads. Your intention might be to stay within the legal limits, and with an LSD you would be within the legal limits of enthusiasm. But since the unloaded wheel starts slipping, you will be slower than you intended and will possibly put yourself in an unsafe situation with oncoming traffic.

If this is what BMW wants to be doing, then that's just the way it is.

Knowing a tiny bit of the logistics and costs involved, however, I would like to offer for your consideration the possibility that the economics of it have not been thoroughly considered. Anybody who writes for a motor magazine or a reviewer like the many car talk sites that put up items on Youtube is going to complain about not having an LSD.

It would only cost $300 - $600 to put a Torsen axle in the car at the time it is assembled, but it costs the end user many times that to do it himself.

If this is what they want to do, that is fine. But this particular writer is otherwise impressed with the car and might have even considered it instead of the 2010 TL SH-AWD.

I don't think you should hate them, but you sure as hell should not be encouraging them.

Crazy Bimmer

^ Oh come on, you being too extreme with these scenarios. If there was that big of an issue with the 335i lack of LSD then owners would be complaining and magazines wouldnt be ranking it so high in almost every comparison.

Plus read up, the 335i has a ELSD where the rear brakes will be applied slightly to keep even power to both rear wheels. Granted it will a tick slower than you intended but surely wont put you in harms way and most owners have no idea its even happening because of how fast the system works.

Only issue I had in my old 335i was that once i had software the huge low end torque had problems putting all the power to the ground when romping on it. Otherwise in stock form i didnt think it needed a real LSD for how most people drive it on the street.

BMW reserves the LSD for Mcars only, its why the 335i doesnt have one. Been doing that since 95 i think.

Costco

My joke















Your head

It's what happens when 4G abortion threads get transplanted here and the apologists wander into Car Talk, thinking "What happened? We were having so much fun agreeing with each other!"

turkeybaster115

iTrader: (1)

Car and Driver Virginia International Raceway Times

2010 S4: 3:10:4
http://www.caranddriver.com/features..._3a10.8_page_9

2007 335I: 3:10:05
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...i_coupe_page_6

"But what floored us was that the 335i’s best lap (3:10.5) was 1.2 seconds quicker than the M coupe’s. It’s a case of neutral handling over outright speed. Whereas the M coupe had understeer at turn-in that switched to oversteer at the exit, the 335i was nearly perfectly balanced everywhere and made up most of its time in the region between the braking zone and turn apex."

2008 G37 Sport: 3:17.5

Acura TL SH-AWD N/A* *i.e: wasn't even considered.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

This. Yes.

F23A4

I neglected to use red font. My bad.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

The 335i is fast enough without a proper LSD. Perhaps it will be even faster with one, but for its purpose, its electronic LSD is good enough.

mrmako

I don't mind having a Torsen LSD in my car, but I am nowhere near the handling limits of the car. That exceeds my abilities.

George Knighton

VIR Full is a course that lends itself well to what you might perceive as the 335i's weaknesses.

However, Oak Tree will slow down a rear drive car without an LSD. There's no real way to point the car there.

And Roller Coaster will also slow down a rear drive car without an LSD.

It's fine that you guys think the 335i is okay just the way it is, and as I said, it is a fine driving car.

However, most of you are making the mistake of assuming that the writer has not been at VIR in a 335i, and with a TL SH-AWD. The 335i suffers from the lack of a Torsen axle.

As good as the car is, it would be better with an LSD.

Those of you suggesting that the VSA or any kind of electronic traction control or artificial vectoring using the brakes...well, all I can say is that you are giving away that you are ignorant.

It is probably honest ignorance, and I am not accusing anyone of deliberate subterfuge in any way, but you are being ignorant about it.

The 335i is a great car.

It would be greater with some kind of LSD on the rear. :-)

Crazy Bimmer

Instead of throwing the word ignorant around, why dont you just correct us then.

None of us is sitting here saying the 335i is better with a ELSD than a real LSD. We are just saying for the purpose of the 335i that it does just fine keeping up with those cars that have it.

Crazy Bimmer

No kidding. We should just leave these threads there so they all can stroke their own egos together.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

335i 6MT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4G TL 6MT

sorry but really, i would never get 4G TL over 335i. that's just too crazy.

George Knighton

I believe we just did that. Whether or not you accept instruction, or accept the possibility that we might know what we are talking about is up to you.

You asked for education, and I just tried to tell you that it does *not* keep up in any number of situations, including at VIR, where the test was done. With the bolded text, you've hedged your bet so thoroughly that it is hard to talk about.

The fact that the particular drivers in those particular cars liked the BMW best of all belies the fact that other testers have got around VIR Full faster than the 335i.

With a TL 6-6, you will hit the 135 mph limiter on both the front straight and the back straight, and it would be even faster except that Acura realise the limits of likely drivers at those speeds. But even with hitting the limiter, the SH-AWD TL 6-6 is quicker around VIR than the 335i and any number of other more powerful vehicles, including the 360 HP Taurus SHO.

If you put an LSD in the 335i, it would be a nicer car for enthusiasts. The most it would add to the sticker is $600.

Anybody who has ever gone through Oak Tree in a 335i is going to want an LSD.

Or, let's say anybody who's of Group 3 or Group 4 calibration, anyway.

George Knighton

You're still not accepting the possibility that things were said wrong by your favourites here, and I am puzzled by the attitude and method of expressions of the moderating team here.

I won't say that I resent your comments, because you're basically powerless to evoke an emotional response.

But you are simply wrong.

Wrong with your facts, and wrong with your attitude toward those facts.

majin ssj eric

Oh my god George, just go back to you fantasyland in the TL forum and leave us alone! You obviously cannot comprehend the message we are giving you here. I'll try one more time:

The TL is an unlikeable car that most enthusiasts would rather contract ebola than own. It may be fast around a track. It may have SHAWD. It doesn't matter. Just about everybody here would take an Audi/BMW/Infiniti over the TL for a multitude of reasons. The fact that the 335i has no mechanical LSD simply does not matter. It is a wholly more desirable car than the 4G TL will EVER be.

So you see, just go back to where you came from, stop bothering us here in Cartalk, and everything will be back to normal....

George Knighton

It wasn't my choice. :-)

dom

A well put post.

But lets keep things civil guys...on both sides.

winstrolvtec

George, don't worry about it. Car Talk is really just about that....talk and talk is cheap. No one here lends any better perspective about any of the cars discussed here than anyone else but they sure do act like it. At least I know I can get solid objective information from you and others at the 4G community.

All that gets thrown around here is opinion and misinformation. Some of us like to get past that, others just want to accept that and only that as their reality. Useful discussion is rare around these parts. It's like an all boys school, full of knuckleheads and ball breakers and while at times it can be fun, it's really doing nothing more than breeding immaturity. Strangely it often starts with the moderators, it takes one to deal with one.

Crazy Bimmer

To each their own. Many of us here in Car Talks have had these cars in the past so we speak from experience, some facts and some opinions. Car Talks is very active so it cant be all that bad. Anyways back on topic...


Well i wouldnt go that far. Thanks to RonJon the TL looks pretty good. Still rather have the G37 though.

Costco

Maybe some of us can form opinions of our own and aren't so biased to the point that we can't admit any fault even with cars that we like. How pointless would it be to have discussions or debates without opinion? Ooh, the wheelbase of car A is shorter than car B and thus lends to more nimbler handling and .... Not to mention how annoying it is when someone won't concede at all with a matter of opinion... *cough*

Funny how you claim its us here that are knuckleheads and ballbreakers when it was a certain someone who strolled in here, and started claiming this and that, and then needed to start a topic in the 4G asking for HELP in Car Talk? What's wrong with having a difference of opinion?

https://acurazine.com/forums/4g-tl-2009-2014-123/so-im-abandoned-769902/

All (unoffensive) opinions are welcome here, unlike in 4G when criticizing how a car looks will get a topic locked No one cares if you don't like the atmosphere of Car Talk.... go ahead and stay in 4G and post a bunch of pics of the same car model over and over, with a different mod every week. Make a new topic about a new feature you found in your car. I'm sure its much more interesting than any discussions that could possibly go on around Car Talk. I was in the 2G CL/TL forums back even before I registered.... no offense to anyone but it gets boring after a while.

Oh, and thanks for adding absolutely NOTHING to this topic. If you guys even wondered why everyone groans and sighs with frustration every time a topic from the 3G or 4G forum gets moved over here, well now you know.

mrmako

I was in the 2G forum, and I admit, it was the place to be if you had one of those cars and needed information. Sure there are the "ohhs and ahhs" of every little mod, but that didn't matter if the forum provided opinion and information.

A lot of here on Car Talk left the Acura fold because of the direction they took style wise, and letting the other luxury/sport makers advance more than them. I'm not about to use a silly analogy, as it would be pointless. If the fact that those on here have said the TL is ugly, then that is their opinion. And no one takes anything away from the performance of the car. But the BMW is a better drivers car in this test. Looks can be polarizing.

Car talk generally does a good job at balance because all of the opinions vary, as everyone owns different cars and has experienced many more. It is this variety that makes this forum a good place to discuss the virtues and faults of a car. There are some that are bigger fans of some cars over others (and I am guilty, but I like and respect other cars).

George, you also spoke with the term "we" in this line:

. This does not show that "your" group is better opinionated, does it?

NJ SHAWD

Ok, I have to admit, I have never stepped out of 4G land simply because there is so much going on on this website it wasn't worth the confusion factor for me. So I ended up here after a 4G search and have been reading through this thread. I had to go back a couple of times and try to figure out where I was because this was nothing like anything I had seen on the Acurazine site before. Are you guys really getting that angry and being so malicious over your hatred for the 4G? I don't understand why George is even trying to defend the car here. He is up against a bunch of guys (and even Mods?) that for whatever reason have this weird hatred for an inanimate object. It's a car guys! Don't get me wrong, I love the car overall. There are certain things I'm not crazy about, like the styling, but you have to embrace the ugliness. Some people buy bulldogs for the same reason. Our cars might be ugly to some, but to others they're not so bad. They may even grow on you. Other than that, they are incredibly comfortable, well appointed, fast and handle well. If you look at the physical size of the car, I would think a better comparison would be with an A6, an M series Infiniti, and a 5 series BMW, but then again I guess we would kill them all on price.

Lighten up guys, I thought we left the "my Dad's bigger than your Dad" crap in elementary school.

F23A4

Actually, one doesn't have to embrace the "ugliness". Quite frankly (and this applies to a number of current Honda/Acura products), the styling of the 4G TL -- though subjective, of course -- is generally NOT as appealing as its competitors. Is it possible that its appearance can grow on one? Yes. But I'd hate to shell out $40k+ and then hope that it's appearance grows on me.

As for how most of us come across to the migrants from the 4G TL, but too bad (and I really don't mean for that to come across as callous as it may). The 4G TL has been the topic of conversation in Car Talk since its debut, and most of us simply cannot look beyond its hideousness. (NOTE: This just may be in large part to how appealing the 3G TL was, particularly the Type S package. To wit, most of us would LOVE to have the 4G TL SH-AWD powertrain in a 3G TL body.) So for many here, arguing in favor of the 4G is a lost cause and no longer worthy of mention.

And with all due respect to the 4G TL (not a bad entry level luxury sport sedan in its own rite), it's not nearly as upmarket as the A6, M and E60 (I havent tried the F10 yet). Even if it were though, it would effectively displace the RL, which is certainly not built to compete with the A8 or 7 Series.

NJ SHAWD

Wow, and you're a mod...lol.

F23A4

and forum member, which means I am entitled to my opinion regardless of whether or not it's in lockstep with yours.

NJ SHAWD

opinions welcomed, leave your attitude at the door.

You are held to a higher standard as a mod. You aren't supposed to take sides, or bully your way through a conversation. You can't ram your opinion down my throat because you are a mod, just like I can't ram mine down yours.

F23A4

You may wish to leave your senstivity at the door. If I wanted to bully you as mod, I would state my position and then lock the thread immediately thereafter. This clearly has not occurred.

jiggaman

this thread has gone downhill fast huh

majin ssj eric

Point taken. The RJ TL does look pretty good. Now if Acura would just build it that way from the factory...

NJ SHAWD

wow...:shakehead

I'll pull out here to keep this thread alive. Mod huh? keep up the good work

F23A4

...and this has been a fairly tame thread regarding the TL. You should backtrack this thread: LINK. This should raise your ire further.

George Knighton

Are you in a position to be shopping for those cars?

The reason that I ask is that you are comparing the TL to cars that cost many thousands of pounds more. The A6 is in a completely, totally different price class.

To get vectoring AWD in an Audi, you have to pick an S4 and then add the optional vectoring AWD. This is going to get you a car costing about $58,000 compared to the TL's sticker of $43,000.

To talk about these cars in the same breath is not really relevant to what we have been discussing.

The discussion about the SH-AWD TL 6-6 and the 335i is more relevant because their stickers are closer, and in this case I think you'll find that the Acura performs very well indeed, offering a level of performance and technology that the BMW cannot achieve for the equivalent sum of money.

There are many, many people who will simply continue to like the way the BMW "feels" and there is no way to counter that. Once you get to know the TL, you will probably like it better than the BMW.

But if you are an "average" buyer, it is possible you will simply never like the TL because of the perception that the EPS is too quick, or too numb, or you just think it is ugly compared to the BMW. No way to counter those kinds of feelings because they are simply that...feelings, completely unquantifiable and illogical.

On the other hand, if you have lived with Honda for years, if you've had your share of Civics, Integras, Accords and so on, then you'll probably just love the TL inasmuch as it is a logical and entirely relevant and superior evolution of the Honda goals for living and life. That is to say, if we can get you into one of the things to begin with, and if you are even in the market for something in that price range.

Poking around a bit, and researching behind the scenes what goes on here and how people are posting in other forums, it seems to me that most of the posters in this thread are just not even in the market for this kind of vehicle and would not understand its evolution and logic.

There is probably no way to counter that in the minds of the buying public, but I think it would be reasonable to believe that the staff of the site would be more fair and open minded in their posts, and I think that it would be reasonable to believe that the staff would assist with slowing down the unreasonable rhetoric instead of adding to it.

Nope. In its current iteration, the RL/Legend is pretty much doomed to insignificance.

Even within the Honda lineup, it is being attacked from below by the SH-AWD TL, and being attacked from above by the SH-AWD ZDX. It was supposed to have been replaced by a completely different car by now, but the economic collapse has prevented the roll out of a radically new and expensive design.

For the time being, the front engine-rear bias SH-AWD big car is on the shelf, right beside the little twin-cam V8, right beside the Mugen V10.

Maybe one day! :-)

The supporters of the little twin-cam V8 can be encouraged by the racing programme, in which the V8 is beginning to realise its campaign in a Japanese racing series that we're all watching to see if this little V8 is good enough for us to think it'll see its way into a production car sometime soon.

You have to admit, that looking back over the comments that the moderating staff have made in this thread, one might walk away with less than the very best impression of the knowledge and reasonableness. One might reasonably deduce, I think, that we get a little too involved in extending the traditional life of a particular forum, to the sacrifice and exclusion of new ideas whether or not they are submitted from a verifiable and obviously knowledgeable stand.

The funny thing is that I first came here because I found a place to talk about newer Acura designs.

And the next thing I know, it's like I'm in the middle of HT GDD. :-)

ragincajun

how is it illogical to want a car, or any object, to be better looking rather than ugly?

would you purchase an ugly house? or go out with an ugly girl?

no, because the reality is, people like things that are attractive. if you have the means to get it, and the features of the car, or personality in the girls case, fit what you are looing for and are attractive, perfect fit.

dont get what you are saying at all. your point sounds to me like, "if you dont like the 4G then you obviously don't get it and understand the nuances of the automobile"

that, to me, is illogical

NJ SHAWD

Won't raise my ire. I won't even bother reading it. I sit back and chuckle at anyone who gets so bent on trying to be right about your opinions. Because let's face it, that's all they are. My 4G is no better or worse than the 3G or 2G or 335i or any other car that anyone else loves. It's personal preference that makes a car great to the individual. And in the mean time I will enjoy my 4G SHAWD, with all of it's tech toys regardless of your opinion. Because as all opinions, yours shouldn't mean anything to anyone else.