R&T Comparison - S4 vs. 335i vs. G37S vs. TL-SH AWD
03-26-2010, 12:58 PM
#41
Because when you're taking your 4000lb pig of a TL to the racetrack you need a locking differential, obviously.
The TL SH differential behaves completely in the opposite from what a locking differential does. Your pig comment is not accurate. The compact 335 sedan with AWD is near 3800 lbs in base weight, meaning options could very well make it 4000 lbs like we see in the S4. The TL SH 6MT is under 3900 lbs. Most luxury sedans even the smallest ones all weigh in near 4000 lbs. The TL is no more of a pig than anything else, it's actually pretty light given it's size and SH-AWD.
03-26-2010, 01:13 PM
#42
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
Are you guys reading the first three introductory paragraphs?
I think that explains the reasons of this comparison.
"6-cylinder engines that range in displacement from 3.0 to 3.7 liters, and from 300 to 333 bhp. Supercharger? Check. Twin turbos? Roger that. Variable timing and lift, and a smattering of direct injection too? Yessiree"
I personally think it was a great comparo regardless of the outcome.
Still I think Audi did very smart job of "downgrading" the S4 to go head to head with 335i.
I think that explains the reasons of this comparison.
"6-cylinder engines that range in displacement from 3.0 to 3.7 liters, and from 300 to 333 bhp. Supercharger? Check. Twin turbos? Roger that. Variable timing and lift, and a smattering of direct injection too? Yessiree"
I personally think it was a great comparo regardless of the outcome.
Still I think Audi did very smart job of "downgrading" the S4 to go head to head with 335i.
03-26-2010, 01:15 PM
#43
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
I love the fact that 4G TL went around the track faster than 335i and G37, however, your 4G TL is heavy. That's for sure.
03-26-2010, 01:20 PM
#44
The TL SH is bigger (in and out), in fact it's A6 big, and heavier compared to the S4's base weight. The S4 in the comparo is actually heavier. Not exactly sure from what, maybe it's the adaptive suspension and sport differential.
I am not sure if you are being serious with the SHO comment but it's not a luxury sedan but a point can be made in the sense that what else can you compare it to?
03-26-2010, 01:32 PM
#45
I drive a Subata.
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^ You are not getting the main point of this comparo.
Did R&T say anything about "luxury" sedan? They are talking about "Four Door Firepower sedans". The new SHO fits right in the mix in my opinion. I'm not 100% sure about its powerplant info, but it's FI V6 right?
Did R&T say anything about "luxury" sedan? They are talking about "Four Door Firepower sedans". The new SHO fits right in the mix in my opinion. I'm not 100% sure about its powerplant info, but it's FI V6 right?
03-26-2010, 01:33 PM
#46
03-26-2010, 01:35 PM
#47
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
wait a minute........... i forgot we were talking about 4G TL! damn!
who cares? its ugly as hell.
who cares? its ugly as hell.
03-26-2010, 02:00 PM
#48
I was talking about the comparo and I lent a perspective on the TL that many are unaware of in defense of the comparo and their opinion of the TL. I am not saying they are at all wrong, I just added to it, that's all.
And ya like the MS3 is so much better looking.
03-26-2010, 02:29 PM
#49
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
you want me to put up a poll? 2G MS3 vs 4G TL?
anyway, S4 FTW
03-26-2010, 02:34 PM
#50
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
03-26-2010, 04:48 PM
#51
Senior Moderator
03-26-2010, 06:11 PM
#52
I'm not saying they are all as important as each other, but a car's styling should be considered as much as its price, performance, comfort/NVH factor, etc. is.
oh and dom, here is an explanation of how an LSD works (better than I can explain) and why its better than an open diff. Basically, it helps the drive wheels rotate the car around a corner better than a car with an open diff. and makes kicking the back out a lot more fun!
http://www.civicforums.com/forums/po...187-post3.html
oh and dom, here is an explanation of how an LSD works (better than I can explain) and why its better than an open diff. Basically, it helps the drive wheels rotate the car around a corner better than a car with an open diff. and makes kicking the back out a lot more fun!
http://www.civicforums.com/forums/po...187-post3.html
What is a limited slip differential?
Most vehicles come with a 'peg leg' open differential. The biggest problem with this is when one of the drive wheels slips, an open differential sends more power to it, not less (it is the path of least resistance). This is most noticeable when one is stuck in the snow: one drive wheel will spin, and the other one will just sit.
From a performance standpoint, this means when one is cornering and the wheel on the inside of the turn is being unweighted, much of the power will go to it, causing it to spin, which may cause understeer (a frontend push to the outside of the turn) in FWD cars. The wheel on the outside of the turn, which is being weighted and therefore has more traction, does not receive as much power, so the power is wasted on the spinning inside wheel. Also, when launching aggressively off the line, when one wheel begins to spin, it will receive the bulk of the power, causing it to spin more...
Now, limited slip differentials (LSDs)(they come in all different configurations, and not all are called LSDs [torsen diffs for example] but we will call them all LSDs to simplify things) use a mechanical, hydraulic and/or electronic mechanism to supply power to the wheels that grip, not just the wheels that slip (yes, just like in the Subaru ads). So, when cornering, the outside wheel will get its fair share of power, lessening understeer and allowing one to power out of corners better. Torque steer is also lessened, and wheelspin on aggressive launches is minimized.
One key feature of LSDs is that they still allow the drive wheels on either side of the vehicle to turn at different speeds, which is why we have differentials in the first place. When a car goes around a corner, the outside wheels must turn faster than the inside ones. A drag racing trick is to weld an open peg leg differential together so that both wheels are locked and receive equal power. This makes for great drag launches, but trying to go around corners, even very slowly, is extremely difficult, and can break axles as the outside wheels fight the inside wheels.
So the end result with an LSD is better handling and accelleration. And a much lighter wallet if you are buying one for a car that does not have one already. Quaife seems to be the most popular for FWD Honda/Acuras.
Most vehicles come with a 'peg leg' open differential. The biggest problem with this is when one of the drive wheels slips, an open differential sends more power to it, not less (it is the path of least resistance). This is most noticeable when one is stuck in the snow: one drive wheel will spin, and the other one will just sit.
From a performance standpoint, this means when one is cornering and the wheel on the inside of the turn is being unweighted, much of the power will go to it, causing it to spin, which may cause understeer (a frontend push to the outside of the turn) in FWD cars. The wheel on the outside of the turn, which is being weighted and therefore has more traction, does not receive as much power, so the power is wasted on the spinning inside wheel. Also, when launching aggressively off the line, when one wheel begins to spin, it will receive the bulk of the power, causing it to spin more...
Now, limited slip differentials (LSDs)(they come in all different configurations, and not all are called LSDs [torsen diffs for example] but we will call them all LSDs to simplify things) use a mechanical, hydraulic and/or electronic mechanism to supply power to the wheels that grip, not just the wheels that slip (yes, just like in the Subaru ads). So, when cornering, the outside wheel will get its fair share of power, lessening understeer and allowing one to power out of corners better. Torque steer is also lessened, and wheelspin on aggressive launches is minimized.
One key feature of LSDs is that they still allow the drive wheels on either side of the vehicle to turn at different speeds, which is why we have differentials in the first place. When a car goes around a corner, the outside wheels must turn faster than the inside ones. A drag racing trick is to weld an open peg leg differential together so that both wheels are locked and receive equal power. This makes for great drag launches, but trying to go around corners, even very slowly, is extremely difficult, and can break axles as the outside wheels fight the inside wheels.
So the end result with an LSD is better handling and accelleration. And a much lighter wallet if you are buying one for a car that does not have one already. Quaife seems to be the most popular for FWD Honda/Acuras.
03-26-2010, 06:56 PM
#53
Drifting
Because when you're taking your 4000lb pig of a TL to the racetrack you need a locking differential, obviously. 
Wanna race?
Wanna race?
03-26-2010, 08:28 PM
#54
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
^
what a joke
4G TL owners
what a joke
4G TL owners
03-26-2010, 09:00 PM
#55
B8 S4's are nice. But not that nice to warrant paying $14k more to own than the TL. Considering I have a kid in the back who is always kicking and moving her legs, and also the need for a reliable daily driver. Being unable to go to the office is forever lost revenue. Factor in maintenance costs, historical reliability, and residual value, BMW and Audi looses their appeal very fast, even after their attractive exteriors are accounted for. I'll put that $14k in to my kid's college fund.
I would take the S4 (or 335i) as a rental car for a getaway or a track car. But the S4 does not make my list as a daily driver to own. Practicality has the TL as my vote getter, and my wallet.
I would take the S4 (or 335i) as a rental car for a getaway or a track car. But the S4 does not make my list as a daily driver to own. Practicality has the TL as my vote getter, and my wallet.
i havent seen newer Audi breaking down in middle of road. only in high end electrical systems there may be problem.
03-26-2010, 09:08 PM
#56
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This thread should have been left alone in the forum where many of us were originally discussing it.
It was started by a 4G owner to talk to other 4G owners about a specific test.
Regardless of any rules, the thread has been lessened in the move, and none of us are going to want to address issues raised by miscreants and the badly informed, issues that are already settled in the minds of the people who were previously discussing the issues in the thread.
It was started by a 4G owner to talk to other 4G owners about a specific test.
Regardless of any rules, the thread has been lessened in the move, and none of us are going to want to address issues raised by miscreants and the badly informed, issues that are already settled in the minds of the people who were previously discussing the issues in the thread.
03-26-2010, 09:09 PM
#57
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
^ That's what I'm saying. Audi has crapload of high tech options, that's why its priced up there.
I personally would buy this brand new S4 with rear sport differential and drive select for around $48K-50K with as minimal options as possible (its around this IIRC)
I personally would buy this brand new S4 with rear sport differential and drive select for around $48K-50K with as minimal options as possible (its around this IIRC)
03-26-2010, 09:13 PM
#58
350 miles is pretty decent from 16.9 gallon tank. as it will improve with more mileage.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/t...=0&i=20&nmt=B8 S4 Ownership&mid=0
At first I felt the engine a little tight. It was quick for sure, but not the real thump in the back that I was used to from my BMWs.
Then came the 3000 mile mark. And suddenly the car seems to have developed more bark and considerably more thrust (especially off the line). While in Dynamic mode, the pick up at 3000+ revs is now diesel like. I frightened a Carrera S on the M3 just recently.
The funny thing is, I think there is more to come, it seems to be loosening up by the journey at this stage.
Fuel Consumption
Now I quizzed you guys about this a fair bit before buying the car as I had been used to potent diesels averaging +40MPG. I am not going to kid you - it is not great, though getting better. I get a claimed 330 miles out of a tank. But here is the funny thing: It reads empty with 10 litres left in the tank! Meaning I never tank more than 54 litres. I actually tested it beyond the 0 reading and got another 30 miles before I chickened out, so range is probably closer to 350 miles at this stage. Still, wonder if anyone else has that issue?
Here is another strange point. Putting the DSG in manual mode actually improves the MPG by about 3 MPG on average. As if the auto is labouring a little more by opting for higher gears than one would naturally select.
Also, it is odd how you find yourself forgetting about the MPG with ownership time, as the engine just eggs you on to squeeze the fun pedal when the roads get intersting. But for the rest of the time, I feel content to just cruise along, comfortable in the quiet knowledge of the potency available at my beck and call. As a consequence I find myself driving less quickly on motorways, relaxing in the city, but give me a windy A or B road, and well... head differs to foot
Other particularily nice features
The colour. It seems to draw more attention from fellow drivers than one has the right to expect driving a 4 door saloon.
The sports seats: You could live in them. May remove them before I sell it on and put them in my front room!
At first I felt the engine a little tight. It was quick for sure, but not the real thump in the back that I was used to from my BMWs.
Then came the 3000 mile mark. And suddenly the car seems to have developed more bark and considerably more thrust (especially off the line). While in Dynamic mode, the pick up at 3000+ revs is now diesel like. I frightened a Carrera S on the M3 just recently.
The funny thing is, I think there is more to come, it seems to be loosening up by the journey at this stage.
Fuel Consumption
Now I quizzed you guys about this a fair bit before buying the car as I had been used to potent diesels averaging +40MPG. I am not going to kid you - it is not great, though getting better. I get a claimed 330 miles out of a tank. But here is the funny thing: It reads empty with 10 litres left in the tank! Meaning I never tank more than 54 litres. I actually tested it beyond the 0 reading and got another 30 miles before I chickened out, so range is probably closer to 350 miles at this stage. Still, wonder if anyone else has that issue?
Here is another strange point. Putting the DSG in manual mode actually improves the MPG by about 3 MPG on average. As if the auto is labouring a little more by opting for higher gears than one would naturally select.
Also, it is odd how you find yourself forgetting about the MPG with ownership time, as the engine just eggs you on to squeeze the fun pedal when the roads get intersting. But for the rest of the time, I feel content to just cruise along, comfortable in the quiet knowledge of the potency available at my beck and call. As a consequence I find myself driving less quickly on motorways, relaxing in the city, but give me a windy A or B road, and well... head differs to foot
Other particularily nice features
The colour. It seems to draw more attention from fellow drivers than one has the right to expect driving a 4 door saloon.
The sports seats: You could live in them. May remove them before I sell it on and put them in my front room!
03-26-2010, 09:23 PM
#59
if Euro keep droping things good change for better. the most expensive thing is 3.0 supercharge DI engine and its tremendous mid range flexibility not even V8 powered cars can come close to it. it does not have problems of turbo BMWs.
03-26-2010, 09:43 PM
#60
This thread should have been left alone in the forum where many of us were originally discussing it.
It was started by a 4G owner to talk to other 4G owners about a specific test.
Regardless of any rules, the thread has been lessened in the move, and none of us are going to want to address issues raised by miscreants and the badly informed, issues that are already settled in the minds of the people who were previously discussing the issues in the thread.
It was started by a 4G owner to talk to other 4G owners about a specific test.
Regardless of any rules, the thread has been lessened in the move, and none of us are going to want to address issues raised by miscreants and the badly informed, issues that are already settled in the minds of the people who were previously discussing the issues in the thread.
I believe you have the wrong thread. This was started in Car Talk first (and even then, I'm pretty sure DrewSRX is an Infiniti owner) then reposted in the 4G forum afterwords (and iforyou has a 2G). There was no move involved, the other thread was just closed.
03-26-2010, 10:15 PM
#61
Someday, an RS6 Avant+
FWIW, a good LSD and AWD is the way to go......
The Audi is a better car, but should be priced lower,
The Audi is a better car, but should be priced lower,
03-27-2010, 06:42 AM
#64
Senior Moderator
You have to give them some props: not unlike 6G Maxima buyers, 4G TL buyers fiercely defend their purchase.....which is why (out of respect to them) I don't refer to them as 'ugly' rather I'd use the term 'relatively unattractive'.
Honestly, they're not Aztek ugly where I'd never want to own one regardless of price.
03-27-2010, 07:21 AM
#65
Someday, an RS6 Avant+
You have to give them some props: not unlike 6G Maxima buyers, 4G TL buyers fiercely defend their purchase.....which is why (out of respect to them) I don't refer to them as 'ugly' rather I'd use the term 'relatively unattractive'.
Honestly, they're not Aztek ugly where I'd never want to own one regardless of price.
Honestly, they're not Aztek ugly where I'd never want to own one regardless of price.
If Honda gets smart and has a new design for the TL that makes it attractive in the looks department, and ups the ante just a touch in power, I'd take a look at importing one here (TL's are not sold here at all since the 3G model.
And I would buy it over an S4.
03-27-2010, 09:29 AM
#68
Senior Moderator
03-27-2010, 11:24 AM
#70
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A moderator wished for us not to be discussing it in the 4G TL Forum, where we were talking among ourselves about things that were relevant to 4G TL owners.
In this forum, we are made to view the words of people who do not know what they are talking about, or the usual group of IB/vB forum miscreants, and we are made to at least scan the views of people whose motive is evidently to cause us to discuss things other than what we were discussing in the other thread.
So we will not get satisfaction here, and that is the bottom line.
Meaning no offence to you, of course, as an innocent party.
03-27-2010, 11:57 AM
#71
Senior Moderator
^ Sir, I read the other thread and the same points that were brought up there are brought up here as well.
In both threads the topics were about TLs track time, steering feel, TL in this segment due to size and price. Only difference is that most of us in Car Talks are not TL owners anymore like we once were. Personally its why i enjoy Car Talks because you will get unbiased views on all topics related in this area.
Sure the TL thread didnt mention anything about the cars appearance but lets face it, when doing comparisons it matters.
If you would like to discuss something about the article then feel free to post your opinion on it. I am sure many of us would love to hear it and discuss.
In both threads the topics were about TLs track time, steering feel, TL in this segment due to size and price. Only difference is that most of us in Car Talks are not TL owners anymore like we once were. Personally its why i enjoy Car Talks because you will get unbiased views on all topics related in this area.
Sure the TL thread didnt mention anything about the cars appearance but lets face it, when doing comparisons it matters.
If you would like to discuss something about the article then feel free to post your opinion on it. I am sure many of us would love to hear it and discuss.
03-27-2010, 03:38 PM
#72
Senior Moderator
^ Sir, I read the other thread and the same points that were brought up there are brought up here as well.
In both threads the topics were about TLs track time, steering feel, TL in this segment due to size and price. Only difference is that most of us in Car Talks are not TL owners anymore like we once were. Personally its why i enjoy Car Talks because you will get unbiased views on all topics related in this area.
Sure the TL thread didnt mention anything about the cars appearance but lets face it, when doing comparisons it matters.
If you would like to discuss something about the article then feel free to post your opinion on it. I am sure many of us would love to hear it and discuss.
In both threads the topics were about TLs track time, steering feel, TL in this segment due to size and price. Only difference is that most of us in Car Talks are not TL owners anymore like we once were. Personally its why i enjoy Car Talks because you will get unbiased views on all topics related in this area.
Sure the TL thread didnt mention anything about the cars appearance but lets face it, when doing comparisons it matters.
If you would like to discuss something about the article then feel free to post your opinion on it. I am sure many of us would love to hear it and discuss.
03-27-2010, 03:42 PM
#73
Senior Moderator
In this forum, we are made to view the words of people who do not know what they are talking about, or the usual group of IB/vB forum miscreants, and we are made to at least scan the views of people whose motive is evidently to cause us to discuss things other than what we were discussing in the other thread.
So we will not get satisfaction here, and that is the bottom line.
03-27-2010, 05:32 PM
#74
Senior Moderator
So we are all miscreants????? You arent made to view any thing. No where in the forum does it say people here need to like or view the acura brand as the best. While it may be your opinion it isnt the opinion of others, nor should it be intended to be. Many have moved on and are voicing their opinion as to what they find as a superior vehicle, and if its looks, power, whatever that is completely subjective to the person. Not every one has the same views and that doesnt make them wrong if you dont agree to it.
03-27-2010, 05:57 PM
#75
Again, 4G TL owners
03-27-2010, 07:33 PM
#76
Someday, an RS6 Avant+
So we are all miscreants????? You arent made to view any thing. No where in the forum does it say people here need to like or view the acura brand as the best. While it may be your opinion it isnt the opinion of others, nor should it be intended to be. Many have moved on and are voicing their opinion as to what they find as a superior vehicle, and if its looks, power, whatever that is completely subjective to the person. Not every one has the same views and that doesnt make them wrong if you dont agree to it.
You know, I would think that this discussion being here is better than the TL area, as it is a more lively debate about ALL aspects of each vehicle. AS a former TL owner, I think my comparison (or discussion) is more valid than someone who has only owned Acura/Honda products and refuses to acknowledge other opinions.
The more I think about it, only those that have never owned a comparable car outside of Honda/Acura really would be biased, and not valid in a discussion. No basis for opinion.
03-28-2010, 01:41 AM
#77
on the last few posts.Enough with the justification and defensive posts in the 4G forums. Not saying they're elitist, but it reminds of the snobbery that goes on in BMW and Lexus forums. We get it... You like your car, we get it. Just because other people don't doesn't mean you have to gush with all these reasons why you like your car the most.
03-28-2010, 01:42 AM
#78
Wait, I hope this is from the one I haven't received yet. I read these magazines religiously and remember no such thing.
And re: open diff, I understand why a LSD is better, but I guess I need someone to explain to me why BMW doesn't have that in a 335i?
My car has one, but a 335 doesn't?
And re: open diff, I understand why a LSD is better, but I guess I need someone to explain to me why BMW doesn't have that in a 335i?
My car has one, but a 335 doesn't?
03-28-2010, 11:37 PM
#79
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03-28-2010, 11:41 PM
#80
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I like the 335 a lot. It's a very nice little car...wonderful to drive.
But 300 HP in a car that size is just too much power to have without a Torsen axle.
They want you to think it's such a great handling car, but the handling is limited by design since there is no LSD.