PortlandRL

I was on my way home tonight in the new Santa Fe and as my first car with ABS, I had been eager to test them out, something I'd done before on open, straight roads. Well about thirty seconds from my destination, a Dodge van jumped into the left turn lane at the last second and as I started to come parallel with them on the right (in the thru lane), they realized it wasn't their turn and began to jump back into my lane. There was a construction zone message sign in the other lane so I had nowhere to go. So I threw out the anchor and laid on the horn.

Testing ABS to see how it feels is one thing but having it save your bacon in a potential crash situation is a whole different game. My heartrate is just now starting to come down and I'm glad that was all that came of it.

Aman

ABS FTMFW.

But when it starts to activate over a little wheel hop from a bump in the road, it gets a little tiresome. Safe nonetheless. Glad to see you've got the proper reaction down. Laying on the horn AND brakes at the same time.

But... your previous Santa Fe didn't have ABS?

ghttf

the RL didnt come with abs?

PortlandRL

Nope. It was part of an option package mine didn't have and didn't become standard until 2005.

The RL is my dad's car and yes it does have ABS.

speedemon90

the first time I inhibited ABS, didn't know at the time, I thought my brakes broke lol. But warped brakes plus ABS does create quite a bit of shaking.

phile

ABS shakes my car in the snow. the first time it happened I was scared shitless.

AMUA6

iTrader: (7)

Haha what phile said. First time driving in the snow and I was ready to throw the TL off a cliff.

cjTL

iTrader: (2)

Haha snow and braking is the best. The sound is rather frightening though. Glad ABS saved your butt OP!

v6cord2k5

iTrader: (1)

ABS has saved my bacon quite a few times in my Accord.

for ABS

Never Summer

I've only had the ABS go off once in my 330, most of the time it likes to let me skid a bit... I was coming up to a light at 45mph and it started turning yellow so I gave it some gas to make it and see there is a unmarked Charger sitting across the intersection, so needless to say hard braking in rain probably got more attention than running the light would have.

Gs Dewd

Tell me about it. I can't stand abs and snow. So I just reach up in the fender well of the Durango and unplug the right front wheel sensor and it disables the abs. With the amount of snow we got last year the abs was more of a nusense then it helped. Light snow it's fine heavy snow like 6 or more inches it sucks.

onebadna1nsx

ABS has saved me once... but I was still rear ended when a car plowed into the one behind me.

Aman

I've read studies that ABS actually makes your braking distances longer in the snow.
Not like it would matter since my ABS sensors get packed up with snow and give up first day of winter

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

you could possibly say that, with a GOOD driver for the non-ABS car, with being able to effectively modulate the brake pressure, but the ABS equipped one is going to be ALOT more consistent time after time though (especially if you have had a long day at work)



or another advantage for the ABS car, is what happens when you say have one wheel on a patch of ice, and the other three are on dry pavement, the GOOD driver has a good chance of let off the brakes some to keep that wheel from locking up, so it means the other 3 don't get maximum braking effectiveness, where the ABS can modulate that slipping wheel separate from the other 3, which is going to mean shorter stopping distances for the ABS system

mitch14

i'm completely opposite, i hate ABS.
mainly for reasons other people have mentioned, in snow and ice, ABS is just horrible
and here there is snow and ice on the roads for the whole half a year or more of winter
glad my wheel speed sensor is gone on the CL, i don't even want to fix it as i love normal brakes in the winter
and the odd time in the summer it's fun to lock em all up at a red light and scare the crap out of the passenger or the other people around
the best is when a passenger asks me how the brakes are in my car

Street Spirit

Benefit to ABS is actually being able to steer while under hard braking vs. skidding and heading straight without ABS.

CanopyFlyer

I have had the full range of feelings toward ABS, from hate, to love, to now falling somewhere in between. The main reason I don't like them, is that the ABS is set to activate too early. Maximum performance braking will include some tire squeal, and leaving "rubber" on the pavement, even though the tires are not locked up. You can not do this in an ABS equipped car, which tells me that the car is unable to stop as quickly as it should. Of course even the highest trained driver can panic and lock up the brakes, and it is extremely important to be able to steer in a panic situation. So I must give ABS some kudos for that ability.

Personally what I would like to see, instead of pressure on the brakes being released completely, is the computer sense the maximum amount of braking performance available on each tire, then actively modulate the pressure required to keep that level of performance. Current ABS technology just seems too primitive to provide that capability.

All in all though, I do consider ABS to be a boon to safety for the average driver.

fsttyms1

Its really not designed to shorten distances. Its designed to keep the wheels from locking up in a panic braking situation allowing you to be able to still control the vehicle and steer if necessary.

CL6

What's ABS?

Ken1997TL

Control over my braking > Lack thereof

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

all i am going to say is that when i put on my braided brake lines, it made the abs more effective to the point where you actually have trouble feeling it activate at times (the brakes actually respond to the abs module right away, instead of having to expand the rubber brake lines)

Majofo

Glad you're okay Portland.. and congrats on the new ride.

Rockstar21

iTrader: (1)

this.

neuronbob

Exactly. I would rather have them than not. Thus the name "anti-lock"--they are less prone to locking up with hard braking.

Yes, it sounds annoying in the snow, but in a true panic braking situation you need it. Besides, in the snow.....it's the tires, not the brakes that determine how long the braking distance is. With proper winter tires distance should be shorter.

wackjum

ABS is also a required component in order to have electronic stability control, and that is a system that is indisputably useful. I think overall ABS helps more than it hurts.

fsttyms1

ABS i like, Stability control is something i want to have full control over in being able to turn off.

Legend2TL

ABS is designed to do both, keep the tires from locking up keeps the vehicle under control and provides the shortest stopping distances. This is really true in slippery situations where the difference between static and dynamic coefficient of friction is large (ice, light snow, rain).

When a rubber tire locks up the friction mode changes from static to dynamic (the tire is not static with the contact surface, hence it is now dynamic). For almost all surfaces and conditions, static coefficient friction > dynamic coefficient friction. The two examples I know of that do not make that are heavy snow and gravel, where a locked tire builds up snow/gravel in front of the tire causing higher energy loss.

The hard problem with ABS systems is providing the most amount of force on the tire surface without lockup and if lockup does occur, releasing brake pressure to unlock the tire then get the brake force back to the maximum. This must occur many time per second. In difficult weather/surface situations the surface friction changes rapidly so it's like trying to hit a moving target. Really great ABS systems (i.e. Bosch) can out brake a expert driver in dry conditions. Not all ABS systems are created equal.

Not easy being a firmware engineer for a ABS system.

Aman

So, basically ABS shortens stopping distances in all but heavy snow and gravel?

Majofo

Legend2TL

Yes, for a good ABS systems they can out brake in all surfaces but gravel and deep snow.

In gravel and deep snow, it's best to disable ABS. Audi years ago used to have a ABS disable switch in their vehicles for this reason. Now sure about today

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

being sarcastic or really

Legend2TL

No sarcasm, it really is hard to develop effective ABS algorithms. Sorry for the sarcasm smile.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

old 94 Accord, if you drove with the e-brake light on (handle only had to be like one notch up, just enough for the light) for like a 1/2 mile or so, it would turn off the ABS system, along with turning the ABS warning light on

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

just was not sure... if you were being sarcastic or not



and as stated above, have you noticed anything when people put on braided brake lines

I hate cars

I think ABS is great for the majority of the public and their lack of driving skill.

I started off on a car with no ABS, traction or stability control and I still have that car today. I greatly perfer it to an ABS equipped car. Sure, I've entered corners with the inside front tire locked and exited with the tail out, but I can go faster when I have control of the car and it does what I tell it to. It's so much more predictable without the electronics.

I stared to hate ABS when I put stickier tires on the TL. I can best the ABS by over 20' now. It seriously hinders braking with good rubber.

I really hated it the first time I got inside front tire lock entering a corner. In theory it would only reduce pressure to the tire that was trying to lock. In reality it totally released pressure to all 4 tires to the point there was no braking anymore. I just don't feel comfortable not knowing how the car is going to behave when pushing the limits.

IMO, most of the electronics nowdays are a band-aid for driver skill. Look at the lane change warnings, the back-up warnings, the active cruise control. Maybe it's laziness as in too lazy to look over your shoulder.

I'm sure you can find some scenario where ABS would beat a skilled driver but I'm willing to take my chances with the quicker straight line stopping distances without it.

cjTL

iTrader: (2)

The best is Mercedes' Distronic PLUS. It's like active cruise control...but it can apply 100% braking pressure. Essentially, the only thing you have to do is steer the car. Cool for stop and go traffic, but ridiculous.

I hate cars

It's hilarious. I was following a friend from the valley to LA just last weekend. He was driving his CL65 Brabus. He's a very good driver and we can usually make our way through traffic safely and without hitting the brakes most of the time. He put cruise on to see if he could best his 19mpg record and I noticed the brake lights a ton of times. He was getting so pissed at the car for applying brakes. Apparently it not only goes by distance but by how quick you're closing the gap. We decided to see how hard it would apply the brakes and there's a point where the readout turns red and it goes nearly full power. I'm not sure if it would acutally trigger ABS or not but it was a significant amount of braking. I thought about letting him try out the system's capabilities on my TL but with Acurafest coming soon, I wouldn't have time to get it fixed if the system didn't work.

The other interesting thing is it seems to stop harder when coming up on larger objects. I've never read the literature on how this system works but it consistently braked sooner and harder for large trucks. He looked like a terrible driver with all of the "testing" he was doing. Coming up on people for no reason and then hitting the brakes. Before this trip we didn't even know if the brake lights came on when the system was activated.

Another friend managed to piss the salesman off when buying his IS350. He asked this older guy how much the "drunk driving option" was. I turned the other way because I couldn't help but smile. When he explained it was the active cruise, the salesman just gave him a dirty look.

Legend2TL

Haven't had the opportunity to compare before and after on a car with upgraded brake lines. I've done it before on motorcycles. A friend just put braided lines on his 2009 C6 so I'll have to email him on the before and after.

On the braking explanation, here's a fairly decent article that explains it better than I could.

http://www.drivingfast.net/car-control/braking.htm

The 30% difference is the the difference in the static to dynamic cofficent of friction. ONE EXTREMELY IMPORTANT NOTE: In the wet that difference increases ALOT. Sometime as high as 70-80% in ice conditions. That's why it's really important to avoid locking up a tire in snow and ice.

Alot depends on the design of the ABS system, some are so good (i.e. Bosch) that they out brake expert drivers in dry conditions. Careful monitoring of the wheel speed, excellent brake pressure modulators, and well written firmware can do things a human cannot. Some of the systems were pretty poor (think mid-90's GM ABS from Delco). Honda/Acura systems I rank in the middle of the pack, not awful but not as good as some of the German cars (Porsche and BMW I really like their ABS).

A amusing ABS story is when it was allowed on F1 cars in ther early 90's. Williams with their amazing electronics in the championship winning F1 cars, developed ABS into the the FW15. When tested for the first time in early 1993, Damon Hill and David Coulthard could easily outbrake the ABS-enabled system in dry conditions in the F1 cars with their sticky slick tires. Patrick Head, the Williams technical director had the engineers continue to work the firmware, it could be turned off by the driver and was typically in dry conditions. By mid-season, only Hill could barely outbrake the ABS system. By the end of the season, no one including Alain Prost could outbrake the ABS system in the dry, and this being a F1 car that can generate up to 2+G in deceleration force.

I hate cars

It's good to have your input on this.

One thing I've noticed is between the ligher DOT 5.1 fluid and BBK along with pads with an mu of .55 when the ABS pulses it comes much closer to lockup. In stock form the tires would not even screech.

Are there any tricks to get more out of the ABS especially on sticky tires?

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

let alone when they outlawed traction control, it made ithe driver actually drive instead of just flooring it kinda

btw where i really noticed the lines difference was in the snow/ice conditions (first thing in the mourning)

btw the best one is the GM one with the motors instead of the solenoids Lol

be nice to know, but only thing i could think of is with a different firmware/program