The Honda/Acura Versus The World Debate
11-23-2011, 11:42 PM
#241
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I think that 1G RL looks sick. That's some VIP mob shit. I wonder how many bodies can fit in the trunk? 
11-24-2011, 10:04 AM
#243
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Thread Starter
Well, in fairness to Honda...they do offer a Civic with um, leather and etc. in the CSX. But, the competition does not have a lux-version of their econo-car! 
11-24-2011, 12:03 PM
#245
Senior Moderator
Yumchah if you're attempting to argue that BMW gets a pass because well, its BMW....you're right. Not sure what you're point is though?
Its what every automaker aims for.
I think we can all agree the RL is a good car. But if a writer's bias of BMW, Audi and MB make it seem like the RL is dated and outclassed, even if its false, that's still Acura's problem. Its on them to prove otherwise.
Its also funny how we never heard claims of bias when Honda was winning comparo after comparo for several years. Suddenly when the shoes on the other foot the mag's are corrupt. Pretty sure the RL was C&D's ten best at one point.
People have always claimed C&D was guilty of BMW and Honda bias. Did Honda stop paying? Or are their products no longer deserving?
Its what every automaker aims for.
I think we can all agree the RL is a good car. But if a writer's bias of BMW, Audi and MB make it seem like the RL is dated and outclassed, even if its false, that's still Acura's problem. Its on them to prove otherwise.
Its also funny how we never heard claims of bias when Honda was winning comparo after comparo for several years. Suddenly when the shoes on the other foot the mag's are corrupt. Pretty sure the RL was C&D's ten best at one point.
People have always claimed C&D was guilty of BMW and Honda bias. Did Honda stop paying? Or are their products no longer deserving?
11-25-2011, 12:09 AM
#246
Senior Moderator
I pointed out the Civic trim capabilities awhile ago. The EX-L is a well put together car IMHO.
11-26-2011, 09:47 AM
#247
Senior Moderator
to the OP for starting a compelling discussion.As I just picked a 12 Accord EX sedan, I started to think a little more about Honda's lineup (as well as Acura) and came away with more
than Here's my angle (and I apologize for repeating anything that may have been stated earlier), Honda doesn't necessarily have to compete head-to-head with its competitors. Rather (and styling aside), the do need to have a more compelling lineup and (to me) it's as simple as tweaking what they already have. Here are a few examples.
Accord: The coupes are fine as is IMHO. As far as the sedan goes, re-position the SE model from its current LX premium placement to a lineup topper that is essentially an EX-L with 6MT and a set of 18" wheels (i.e.: the coupe V6). Granted, this car is in the final year of the current design but, the same could apply to the 9G Accord.
TSX: See Accord Sedan above
RDX: This could have been better served with a J-series variant. Especially since the K23A returns horrible fuel economy. Other than that, it's a nice ride.
Civic: Get rid of the Si and import the Civic Type R....better yet, rename it Integra and sell it as a Honda.
RL: While it is a bit nicer and has a slightly better build quality than the TL SH-AWD, it's still not worth its premium over the latter. Honda should have developed the Hybrid V6 program started in the 05 AV6, which may have resulted in a more powerful halo sedan and a counterpunch to the Lexus GSh.
MDX: I love my 09 MDX in every way....except when it comes to its hole-in-the-fuel-tank gas mileage. As with my comment on the RL, "Honda should have further developed the Hybrid V6 program started in the 05 AV6, which may have resulted in a more fuel efficient MDX." This could have been a respectable rival to the Lexus RXh.
Obviously there are plenty of other tweaks that Honda should have addressed....and could have easily been implemented.
Last edited by F23A4; 11-26-2011 at 10:11 AM.
11-26-2011, 10:33 AM
#249
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11-26-2011, 10:35 AM
#250
My first Avatar....
11-26-2011, 12:26 PM
#251
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I though Acura was headed in the direction of Audi which I wouldn't have had a problem with...
11-26-2011, 05:25 PM
#252
Racer
going a lil bit further. what about adding the 6MT from the extinct RSX-S and adapting SH-AWD a la Evo or Sti?
that would be a car that I believe many people on this forum would absolutely love.
or even better, bring over the Canadian CSX and do above stated things to? slightly smaller and lighter chassis, yup sounds like $$$ to me.
that would be a car that I believe many people on this forum would absolutely love.
or even better, bring over the Canadian CSX and do above stated things to? slightly smaller and lighter chassis, yup sounds like $$$ to me.
Last edited by GoldenShoes; 11-26-2011 at 05:28 PM. Reason: forgot important shizzz yo!
another 4g owner
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11-26-2011, 10:13 PM
#256
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11-26-2011, 10:18 PM
#257
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11-26-2011, 10:37 PM
#258
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11-26-2011, 11:31 PM
#259
My first Avatar....
11-27-2011, 01:05 AM
#260
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Thread Starter
11-27-2011, 07:05 AM
#261
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to the OP for starting a compelling discussion.neuronbob:
Accord: The coupes are fine as is IMHO. As far as the sedan goes, re-position the SE model from its current LX premium placement to a lineup topper that is essentially an EX-L with 6MT and a set of 18" wheels (i.e.: the coupe V6). Granted, this car is in the final year of the current design but, the same could apply to the 9G Accord.
neuronbob: Doesn't matter as the 9G Accord is coming very soon. Hopefully Honda will SHRINK the Accord a little, it's too big now IMHO.
RDX: This could have been better served with a J-series variant. Especially since the K23A returns horrible fuel economy. Other than that, it's a nice ride.
neuronbob: I think Honda's issue is that adding a J-series engine brings the RDX that much closer to the MDX, but I do agree with you.
Civic: Get rid of the Si and import the Civic Type R....better yet, rename it Integra and sell it as a Honda.
neuronbob: Hell yes. I mean, DUH, Honda!
RL: While it is a bit nicer and has a slightly better build quality than the TL SH-AWD, it's still not worth its premium over the latter. Honda should have developed the Hybrid V6 program started in the 05 AV6, which may have resulted in a more powerful halo sedan and a counterpunch to the Lexus GSh.
neuronbob: This has been true since the 4G TL-SH-AWD was released. With the 3G TL, the RL was well worth the premium. I can tell you that because I owned a 3G TL and a 2G RL. Acura should have upped the ante on the 2G RL to add to its premium once the 4G TL was released.
MDX: I love my 09 MDX in every way....except when it comes to its hole-in-the-fuel-tank gas mileage. As with my comment on the RL, "Honda should have further developed the Hybrid V6 program started in the 05 AV6, which may have resulted in a more fuel efficient MDX." This could have been a respectable rival to the Lexus RXh.
neuronbob: MDX rocks.
You are missing the entire point of the thread.
11-27-2011, 02:26 PM
#263
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Honestly, I think 200 pounds is a fair trade-off for SH-AWD on the TSX. What does it weigh now, 3600 pounds? Another 200 would make it heavier than average, but I think most people would be okay with the trade-off. I would.
11-27-2011, 05:44 PM
#264
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Thread Starter
11-29-2011, 03:16 AM
#266
Instructor
The times are changing. We all need to accept the fact that Honda has changed their market investment strategy and is now going green. It is obvious that most of their R&D funds are going into hybrids and alternative fuel vehicles as reflected by their new Civic NGV. Recycling old engines and transmissions into face-lifted exteriors means only one thing. Honda/Acura is producing the current line of cars now to keep a stable form of income to fuel (so to speak) their development of energy efficient cars. The end to the performance line of Honda vehicles has long been passed.
11-29-2011, 02:59 PM
#267
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Thread Starter
The times are changing. We all need to accept the fact that Honda has changed their market investment strategy and is now going green. It is obvious that most of their R&D funds are going into hybrids and alternative fuel vehicles as reflected by their new Civic NGV. Recycling old engines and transmissions into face-lifted exteriors means only one thing. Honda/Acura is producing the current line of cars now to keep a stable form of income to fuel (so to speak) their development of energy efficient cars. The end to the performance line of Honda vehicles has long been passed.
11-29-2011, 03:00 PM
#268
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Thread Starter
Would any of you peeps who are critical of Honda lately be happy to see the Accord coupe rebadged and upped in Acura clothing...?
Personally, I think that would be a great move.
Personally, I think that would be a great move.
11-29-2011, 03:33 PM
#269
The times are changing. We all need to accept the fact that Honda has changed their market investment strategy and is now going green. It is obvious that most of their R&D funds are going into hybrids and alternative fuel vehicles as reflected by their new Civic NGV. Recycling old engines and transmissions into face-lifted exteriors means only one thing. Honda/Acura is producing the current line of cars now to keep a stable form of income to fuel (so to speak) their development of energy efficient cars. The end to the performance line of Honda vehicles has long been passed.
First, Honda has always been chasing fuel efficiency and 'green'. They've led and had high horsepower and/or fun to drive cars. So if that truly is what Honda is after, times are decidedly not changing. The only thing changing is that other manufacturers have caught up.
Secondly, if these cars are just stopgaps and the real Honda stuff is coming? Should I not wait?
If I wait, which I and many have been, how will I know that this great car of the future has better, more reliable tech than a car the VW, Toyota, or Hyundai is already on the streets?
You could very well be right, but why would I buy a car that isn't the supposed best of today's tech? I'm not going to fund a company so that someone else can get a good car in the future. I'm buying for myself today.
11-29-2011, 05:00 PM
#270
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As an enthusiast, meh. The problem with Acura was that they didn't differentiate themselves from their Honda counterparts as much as the competition (read: Infiniti, Lexus) did. I think this is becoming less and less of a problem nowadays, but dressing an Accord coupe as an Acura would be a step back.
Now a stylish TL coupe? CL maybe? I think that would be a fantastic move.
11-29-2011, 05:01 PM
#271
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financially or from an enthusiast's pov?
As an enthusiast, meh. The problem with acura was that they didn't differentiate themselves from their honda counterparts as much as the competition (read: Infiniti, lexus) did. I think this is becoming less and less of a problem nowadays, but dressing an accord coupe as an acura would be a step back.
Now a stylish tl coupe? Cl maybe? I think that would be a fantastic move.
As an enthusiast, meh. The problem with acura was that they didn't differentiate themselves from their honda counterparts as much as the competition (read: Infiniti, lexus) did. I think this is becoming less and less of a problem nowadays, but dressing an accord coupe as an acura would be a step back.
Now a stylish tl coupe? Cl maybe? I think that would be a fantastic move.
11-29-2011, 06:46 PM
#272
Senior Moderator
No.
11-29-2011, 10:12 PM
#273
Instructor
So, in essence, these cars are a stopgap before the big push into green.
First, Honda has always been chasing fuel efficiency and 'green'. They've led and had high horsepower and/or fun to drive cars. So if that truly is what Honda is after, times are decidedly not changing. The only thing changing is that other manufacturers have caught up.
Secondly, if these cars are just stopgaps and the real Honda stuff is coming? Should I not wait?
If I wait, which I and many have been, how will I know that this great car of the future has better, more reliable tech than a car the VW, Toyota, or Hyundai is already on the streets?
You could very well be right, but why would I buy a car that isn't the supposed best of today's tech? I'm not going to fund a company so that someone else can get a good car in the future. I'm buying for myself today.
First, Honda has always been chasing fuel efficiency and 'green'. They've led and had high horsepower and/or fun to drive cars. So if that truly is what Honda is after, times are decidedly not changing. The only thing changing is that other manufacturers have caught up.
Secondly, if these cars are just stopgaps and the real Honda stuff is coming? Should I not wait?
If I wait, which I and many have been, how will I know that this great car of the future has better, more reliable tech than a car the VW, Toyota, or Hyundai is already on the streets?
You could very well be right, but why would I buy a car that isn't the supposed best of today's tech? I'm not going to fund a company so that someone else can get a good car in the future. I'm buying for myself today.
I do not work for Honda so I cannot answer your questions. I am merely hypothesizing from what I've seen coming from them.
And to reply to your last comment: isn't that why we're having this discussion in the first place?
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11-29-2011, 11:37 PM
#274
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So, in essence, these cars are a stopgap before the big push into green.
First, Honda has always been chasing fuel efficiency and 'green'. They've led and had high horsepower and/or fun to drive cars. So if that truly is what Honda is after, times are decidedly not changing. The only thing changing is that other manufacturers have caught up.
Secondly, if these cars are just stopgaps and the real Honda stuff is coming? Should I not wait?
If I wait, which I and many have been, how will I know that this great car of the future has better, more reliable tech than a car the VW, Toyota, or Hyundai is already on the streets?
You could very well be right, but why would I buy a car that isn't the supposed best of today's tech? I'm not going to fund a company so that someone else can get a good car in the future. I'm buying for myself today.
First, Honda has always been chasing fuel efficiency and 'green'. They've led and had high horsepower and/or fun to drive cars. So if that truly is what Honda is after, times are decidedly not changing. The only thing changing is that other manufacturers have caught up.
Secondly, if these cars are just stopgaps and the real Honda stuff is coming? Should I not wait?
If I wait, which I and many have been, how will I know that this great car of the future has better, more reliable tech than a car the VW, Toyota, or Hyundai is already on the streets?
You could very well be right, but why would I buy a car that isn't the supposed best of today's tech? I'm not going to fund a company so that someone else can get a good car in the future. I'm buying for myself today.
http://blog.caranddriver.com/honda-f...inder-engines/
http://blog.caranddriver.com/acuras-...ectric-motors/
11-30-2011, 12:45 AM
#275
You may wish to look at what Honda released today. And this is just vague information. Concrete numbers and actual vehicles should be released in then next two months...
http://blog.caranddriver.com/honda-f...inder-engines/
http://blog.caranddriver.com/acuras-...ectric-motors/
http://blog.caranddriver.com/honda-f...inder-engines/
http://blog.caranddriver.com/acuras-...ectric-motors/
If not, my TSX can carry me through for awhile.
Edit: That SH-AWD system looks pretty groundbreaking. I really want to see how well its executed.
Last edited by CarbonGray Earl; 11-30-2011 at 12:59 AM.
11-30-2011, 12:53 AM
#276
Creating highly efficient gasoline powered engines is good for the environment, but a thing of the past. Greenhouse effects are inevitable no matter how efficient our cars are due to the skyrocketing population growth and its demand for fuel. That being said, car manufacturing is a business. Those speaking of the recent lack of "soul" in Honda cars (although true) is probably due to opposing shareholder ideology at the headquarters. There is no doubt that alternative energy is the future so I think Honda is trying to achieve something revolutionary to put on the road that will dominate the competition in terms of efficiency and environmental compatibility.
I do not work for Honda so I cannot answer your questions. I am merely hypothesizing from what I've seen coming from them.
And to reply to your last comment: isn't that why we're having this discussion in the first place?
I do not work for Honda so I cannot answer your questions. I am merely hypothesizing from what I've seen coming from them.
And to reply to your last comment: isn't that why we're having this discussion in the first place?
The problem is, the game may pass you by if all you are doing is trying to hit the perfect pitch for a homer. I rather not see Honda lose its standing.
That all being said, I'm excited about what I've read, but I hope it comes to fruition in the near future. Hopefully whatever it is is groundbreaking and enticing for both the tree-huggers and automobile enthusiast.
11-30-2011, 01:03 AM
#277
11-30-2011, 01:19 AM
#278
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I'm not 'in the know' but it has been speculated that Honda held back direct injection in their cars because of reliability concerns. (See Lexus for examples)
I'm guessing Honda fixed those problems to its satisfation
I'm guessing Honda fixed those problems to its satisfation
11-30-2011, 04:46 AM
#279
Senior Moderator
I hope you're right. As the Rock would say: (Honda) just bring it!
11-30-2011, 05:19 AM
#280
That's great news. I've been waiting on Honda to put DI in their engines.
also really interested on seeing how this new SH-AWD turns out.
also really interested on seeing how this new SH-AWD turns out.