Yumcha

Thought I'd start this thread to see how it goes given what I've seen lately in the Automotive News sub-forum...and hopefully, this can alleviate some of the back-and-forth mud-slinging in some of the threads and just have it all in here.

There's been an observation that Honda/Acura seems to get the hate pile-on for the "smallest" thing and yet, other manufacturers don't seem to get that. While, this argument is not in the context of the discussion of the particular thread, I have wondered if this is indeed the case.

In my opinion, I'd say yeah...somewhat. For example, I maintained awhile ago that Chris Bangle single-handedly uglified BMW and argued that if he designed that kind of abomination for Honda, it'd be hated on but because well, there's the BMW badge, everyone has blinders. Thank goodness he's gone. Just an opinion (mine).

And now, recently, someone noted that most luxury car-makers are taking away manual transmissions (i.e. Audi, BMW, etc.) from their sportier cars (i.e. RS5, etc.) and yet, not a peep in disagreement but if Honda/Acura did that? All hell breaks loose about Honda-sucks, Honda-bites, Honda-stinks etc. etc.

To an extent, I sort of agree with that sentiment. Key in "sorta".

I wonder if we do give a free pass to the other makers because at least, well...they have RWD cars, V8 engines, halo cars...and whereas, Acura/Honda keeps...treading water? Is this why Honda/Acura keeps getting the old ...?


Thoughts?

Moog-Type-S

:ibthetrainwreck:

Yumcha

Eh, it seems to be an underlying issue with the pro-Honda peeps and the ones who are more critical of the manufacturer.

As I said, may as well get it out here instead of turning all those threads into a fight-fest. Keeps it localized.

RaviNJCLs

iTrader: (4)

Is what the front of the 4G TL looks like.

CarbonGray Earl

This is a multi-faceted argument, but from what I understand, most that are here at one time owned a Honda or Acura. We bought in at some point.

So the 'hate' is questionable, in that, is it really hate? Or are we just holding Acura/Honda to the standard they themselves established with vehicles we've all previously owned?

I think its the latter. Some will say that we have high expectations...but Honda established that expectation that they can bring something to the market that drives well, not only competes technologically, but leads, and can do so at a reasonable price.

In the very least, we were able to expect that Honda would hit key engine tech and features. Now, they make the argument to themselves that a 6 speed automatic isn't worth pursuing, or that a 10 year old 4 cylinder is 'good enough'.

The old Honda was able to gauge the current state of tech and meet it or innovate it in someway. I just don't see that now.

oo7spy

I have said for a while that Honda/Acura has only recently started to fall off the map and that it was a conscious decision by their business experts to keep the ship afloat through these troubled waters (economic downturn of 2008). Go back to 2005 and Acura was leading the game in various fields especially AWD with their implementation of torque-vectoring. It seems to me like a sound business decision to hold off on R&D of the next latest and greatest until you can be sure that people will be there to buy it. R&D can be a make or break decision in a business plan if you miss the target audience. Staying the course and relying on already developed technology may not be aimed at the biggest audience, but it also doesn't cost much. I believe Acura will come out with something great in the next 2-3 years that will put them back near the top of the pecking order of intro-luxury cars. The TSX has replaced the TL size, the TL has replaced the RL size, the RSX will come back and possibly include a sub-TSX sedan, and the stage will be set to build a full-size RL that can compete with 7-series, S-class, and Equus size. Throw in a new NSX, and the full house is there. Patience is a virtue.


The new RL has a 6-speed AT with full time paddles. Also, I would like to add Audi to your BMW-blinder metaphor.

Moog-Type-S

Truth is Honda lost their soul a while back.

Yumcha

I dunno, the line-up is not perfect by any stretch...but, I think Honda/Acura has some goodies.

I think the TSX (Euro-Accord) is good. I still like the Civic SI. The CR-V by most reviews still seems to be a benchmark and I really like the MDX.

What I'm most miffed about is what happened to the NSX.

CarbonGray Earl

Also, I might add, there is a distinction between car enthusiasts and the public.

My older aunts and uncles own a CRV, a host of family members own Accords/Civics/Oddeseys etc, and I can tell you that they don't care how many cogs their transmissions has.

Yumcha

I'd somewhat disagree, dude. Have you test-driven the SI recently? It's still a hoot...and I had great fun in the Fit.

oo7spy

I have a blast everyday I drive my car, and it weighs over 2 tons. I rarely get to stretch it's legs; why would I need more?

Moog-Type-S

CRV a benchmark in terms of what?

Certainly not powertrain tech, nor options/ammenities. It's severely lacking in this department especially when compared to the Sportage, Escape.

Quality?....the other makes are on par.
Many offer a longer warranty to stand behind their product.

So what category is it the benchmark?

Moog-Type-S

The fit is hardly a car that has any "soul"....and I LOVE the Fit.

The SI is long in getting long in tooth compared to the competition.
Not to mention it looks pretty much the same for two generations.

RaviNJCLs

iTrader: (4)

And all this with a wonderful high powered V8 engine.....right? I know it's not necessary but I think it is one of the main reasons that the RL will never stand up to other "flag-ships."

Yumcha

I'm not a huge defender of the car since I have zero interest in that segment. All I know is that from what I've casually read in the past, it is one of the market leaders in that segment.

Autoblog:

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/11/17/2...-drive-review/

Yumcha

Okay, maybe it's a good idea I understand what "soul" means to you for a car.

For me, it's how much fun (i.e. hooliganing) I can do with it when driving it around. I can do that just fine in a Fit and SI. And no, I'm not some expert driver, but, I know how to whoop it up a bit...

So, what's "soul" to you?

Moog-Type-S

The past......tis true.

...but such was the case for most of Honda/Acura product.

In the present, and near future....not so much.

oo7spy

Well, that's where the decision to stay the course came in. The plan was to have an RL with a V8 and an NSX with one too, right? Then the credit bubble burst and the plans were scrapped.

All I was saying is don't call Honda out for not using a 6 speed AT. The little 4-banger civic even has 5 gears.

Moog-Type-S

Anyone can hooligan around in a Kia Rondo too.

Soul is presence.

Soul is form and function coming together into something that moves you (not physically).

Soul is making a statement even when the car is at a standstill.

Soul kindles desire in the buyer, and the onlooker.

I can go on and on, but I find few if at all in the current Honda line-up that have any "soul"

Yumcha

Well, I'd argue that for the criticism by some here for Honda staying the course on the CR-V (as a case study here), I'd say the carmaker decided to make smallish changes because they don't want to scare off the marketshare with too many drastic ones...? Besides, reviews for the car are positive so, there aren't many issues to fix to start with.

And maybe that's why you have the Civic more or less the way it is?

I mean, if I were running Honda, I'd venture to say I'd keep the course if nothing is broken? I dunno...just putting it out there.

oo7spy

Yumcha, the posts are coming in so fast I was actually responding to Ravi. I went back and fixed it.

Yumcha

Hrm...well, good points, but I'd be on the part of the field who thinks the Si and Fit are two cars that kinda have it IMO. I mean, for their segment, I think they are good little cars.


Not comparing it to a Zonda okay?

Yumcha

And one other thing, Moog...I really don't know if ALL of your points about soul can apply (at least for me) for an econo-car.


I mean, those things you say I usually reserve for an exotic (i.e. Ferrari, Porsche, Aston Martin, Pagani) or a very high-end vehicle.

And well, that segment, Honda has actively made a point of not going into.

Yumcha

So, for me: soul is more a fun-factor...and again, I go back to my initial point that there are fun cars in the Honda/Acura line-up.

oo7spy

How about the first ever production 6 MT hybrid?


And throw in a Mugen kit under warranty to boot. I think this car makes a statement at a standstill and has a presence. I notice them from a mile away.

KillerG

Honda really doesnt do much to inspire confidence in the enthusiast crowd anymore.

new NSX rumors? front engined hybrid (wtf)

and recently honda released 7 new concepts... EV concepts... gtfo honda...

Yumcha

You're referring to a lack of a halo car, right?

ttribe

It's still...slow.

Legend2TL

Simple, pure functionality. It's something many on these forums don't get or understand. They think it's all about HP, number of gears, DI, blah blah blah. That's not what attracts most owners I know to their CRV's.

I know alot of CRV owners, most love them plain and simple. They work very well, dependable, comfortable, efficient, low cost to own, very simple to operate. Everything works well and is intuitive. I also know someone who was in a head-on collision with a total impact velocity of 70+MPH and only had whiplash.

It's the main reason they are number one in their class. Take a drive in one and you may understand. This is not a enthusiast vehicle, it's a practical vehicle more about utility than performance.

Most folks here who yearn for the past Honda/Acura Type-R Integra, S2000, and NSX, I love that period also but these days US H/A are about mainstream and centralist. That's pretty evident form comparing the Euro Civic to the US Civic. It's about CRV's, Odyssey's, MDX's, Accord's. Trucks became a bid part of Honda's portfolio in early 2000's and they leaped to the front and spent very little if any resources on sport. It was a business/marketing decision, I really wanted to see what the RWD Acura's would have been like as well as the new NSX but this is the path Honda/Acura has chosen.

To me Honda has chosen a more Toyota path which probably has Mr. Honda rolling in his grave, not about his vision.

Yumcha

And that's a good point, should a CUV elicit the sort of "soul" Moog is talking about...?

Certainly, if that's the case, I know I had to ante up way more $$$ to have something that has that sort of thing. If only the FX was a cheap as the CR-V.

ttribe

But, do you at least agree that Honda seems to be falling behind their peers in terms of features and innovation?

Moog-Type-S

I agree and disagree.

The CRV was top of the heap at one time and is relying on it's old reputation of class leader.

...but today it is simply not the case. Many in it's class have passed it...and some by a long shot.

The CRV is simply short on amenities and options that many/most in its class have.

It's short on current/leading power trains.

Honda can rely on their old rep for a while...because their badge does mean a lot to many people...slap a Honda badge on it and you have a reliable appliance to take you from point A to point B.

...but the discerning buyer will find out rather quickly that the CRV gives you less for perhaps even more money than the competition.

ttribe

As I read this thread, my thoughts keep coming back to this: https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=791

Legend2TL

You don't get it but that's OK, most of the their owners couldn't care less about if they have 5 or 6 gears to them it's more about convenience and ease of use. In short you need to spend some time in one to understand. In the past few years I have a little and they are extremely versatile

I don't any of it's competitors have passed it by a "long shot". I would agree that some are catching up and the girl in Inside Line video of the new CRV review states that pretty clearly at ~2:20 into the video review. She gave a pretty honest review.

Sometime you need to drive a vehicle to get "it", I did when I drove my brother's 320i in 1980, then I knew what the whole 320i cult thing was about.

In the auto business you should know many times you cannot measure what you get for your money it's more than gears and HP it's about the usability and ownership experience. The current 3 series speaks volumes there, but the CRV does also.

ttribe

I think he "gets it" just fine, but he sees the inevitable coming if Honda stays on this course - buyers will figure out that there are better values out there; if nothing else Honda's competitors will go out of their way to point it out.

Legend2TL

I.E. Detroit when Honda introduced their 3rd row fold away seat on the 1G Oddy, Detroit and others laughed at the overall vehicle and took little if any notice of the innovative seat.

When the 2G Ody came along it rocked the minivan world not because it was a real threat but also because of the convenience features. So when that seat and the independent rear suspension (which is required for it since the traditional minivan beam axle gets in the way). To be able to store the 3rd row seat in seconds was extremely practical and highly useful It caught the other minivan makers off guard.

It's also in the Pilot and MDX (also because of their IRS) and it's great feature we use every week.

ttribe

I've edited since then, but regardless, my wife and I still own a 2003 Pilot so I know what you're talking about but this market is about the latest innovations, etc. of which Honda as zero. What you're talking about is 8 years old.

Legend2TL

I think the competition are catching up no doubt, but many Honda owners know the value of ownership also includes typical 100K's of miles of trouble-free operation.

But I still don't think he gets it, sometimes a vehicle has attributes that just eclipse measurable parameters. Our Pilot a is a great example, it's far easier to drive in the city than my TL, but that is not something I can measure. That's what the CRV is about. I was just in a friend's 2011 RAV4 this week and it's still behind in some ways.

But new CRV competition is coming on the scene soon.

Legend2TL

BTW I really would have hoped the new US Civic was like the Euro Civic and the new CRV had 6 gears as well.

Some of the cost containment at Honda/Acura annoy me as well, especially on the interior.

Moog-Type-S

Are you saying the CRV can do what the rest of the competition cannot?!?!?

We know the CRV is behind all the competition in drivetrain and availible amenities.
Exactly what does the CRV do better?

Does it have 2 cu/ft more of space? Does it tow more?
Please explain.