I disagree. Many people get fixated on the beak, which in the 09 -11 models was nothing short of an abortion that lived. However the basic design and overall proportions of the TL cannot be remedied through a new bumber and grille. Yes, the 2012 is improved over the 09 -11, not saying much there, but it is still FAR from being a nice looking car.

 

In this article, http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n/viewall.html, covering the top 8 luxury sedans on the market for 2009, Motor Trend puts BMW, Audi, and Mercedes in the top 3 and sticks the RL at number 7. Now I'm not saying that from a purely objective analysis it doesn't belong there, but what they point out that justifies it's placement is intriguing.
Fair enough, Acura didn't upgrade to the 6-speed until 2011 and was behind the curve. However, they complain about lazy shifts, but completely ignore the shift paddles that you can use at ANY time to get to the gear you want quickly even in full auto mode.
The suspension is plush no doubt, but you could upgrade to the ASpec suspension to get the TL grip on the road. The 0-60 is one of the more surprising numbers b/c numerous people have got the MMC 2G RL to 60 in the low 6's and some at 5.9. I understand these times can vary widely, but why put so much emphasis on this "unacceptable" number?
Here is the first real sense of bias. All of a sudden shift paddles are a "pro" feature even when they have to be used in "sport mode" only. 0-60 only takes 6.6s, but 6.8 is unacceptable and in a V8 nonetheless. Remeber how the RL "guzzl[ed] more gas than a V8 Jag"? the observed fuel economy of the number 4 car was 13.8 and the EPA est. is 16/25. Those numbers are definitely worth pointing out the large difference.
The only good things they had to say as to why it stood out was the styling. I'll give MB that they made a beautiful car, but it also costs $5k more than the RL they tested. Soft suspension .2 seconds faster than "unacceptable" 0-60, and OOH! it has PADDLES!!! Definitely worth number 3, hands down!
Great car, lots of subjective opinion, but sure, why not?
0-60: 6s
Observed MPG: 13.6 A whooping .2 better than the gas guzzling RL
EPA: 18/26

Who else? :wink:

Unfortunately, that is how it goes in Car Talk, and you just have to roll with the punches to fit in. The model specific forums are much more enthusiastic about the great products that Honda DOES put out. Case in point, the "Tony Stark Acura concept" thread. Half of the people were saying, "It's just an R8 rebadged; it looks the exact same. It's the same shitty styling that Acura always puts out." But if it WERE an Audi, hands down praise and drool would be in full order.

This may be the truest statement I have heard here.

Here is the picture of all the Motor Trend cars they tested.



You want to talk about a grill? The Audi face looks like it has a gigantic black nose covering 80% of it. The Buick, Infiniti, Audi, and Lexus are worse than the RL IMHO. The Caddy is pretty ugly as well.

 

I guess even accountants enjoy fiction; this is where you've been getting all the insightful gems, normally refered to as opinions?

Hey guys if a car magazine doesn't rate it #1 comparatively it must be bad

 

Where in the hell did I say anything like that? Geez. How many times do I have to say that I don't think Honda's products are BAD? My argument is that they have become complacent because they are obviously slipping relative to the competition. If you're going to quote mine my statements, at least do it with some amount of integrity.

 

I emphasized how flawed and biased you're reasoning is; it sounds just as dumb to me when you type it, as it just did to you, sorry.

You didn't state they're bad, just inferior to other makes models, based on what? The way you feel , that's cute. Or based on what MT, C&D, etc writes?

 

No, you completely misrepresented my reasoning. You weren't even in the ballpark.

I'll respond when you decide to act like a grownup.

 

Sry to derail, any thoughts/opinions on oo7spy post?

 

Guys, I suggest making a thread regarding BMW bias, if this is where this is going. Or automotive journalism's biases in general...it would be a pretty decent topic.

While I do understand its related to the RL in this case, the crux of the argument is related to the MT's love for BMWs.

 

Seems to me like his opinions are just that... his opinions.

My opinion... I would look at every other car on that list before even considering the RL...

 

I'll try; we'll see if I get vilified again over it.

Regarding the RL comparison:

1) It's a 2-yr. old comparison, it has questionable validity to what we are discussing now. However, since the RL has undergone little or no change since then, maybe it is applicable to the discussion (on second thought);

2) Regarding the charge of subjectivity - OF COURSE! It's a compilation of a series of peoples' opinions based on driving the cars one after another. Subjectivity is inherent in the process and will always result in some amount of controversy.

3) Despite all the protests made by the poster, he failed to pick up on the crux of MT's problem with the RL - "It's rare for the most premium of premium Hondas to finish this low in a comparison test, but the RL is simply a dated entry in an especially progressive segment (emphasis mine)." This is the biggest problem for the RL. It's been almost totally neglected by Honda/Acura in a segment where the consumer is looking for the latest and greatest. It just isn't a legitimate flagship, and the fact that it's even being compared to other lux manufacturers mid-point vehicles is indicative of that fact.

4) I'm not sure I would have picked the E60 in that comparison (and I own one), but there's that subjectivity again. Regardless the poster admits the RL probably wouldn't rate in the top 5; crying foul about a BMW winning the whole thing seems a little silly.

BTW, here are the kinds of reviews I was talking about (not a BMW to be found....):

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n/viewall.html

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...xt_comparison/

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...an_comparison/

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n/viewall.html

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n/viewall.html

Four models that used to be considered the gold standard in their respective classes - Accord, Civic, Pilot, and Odyssey. No longer slam-dunk wins for Honda. The competition is catching and passing Honda.

 

Well, hang on...it's just an example of how perception works. I brought up BMW earlier (i.e. the X6) as an instance where I think the perception works great in their favor.

How about this food for thought: Let's say that Honda decided to create a high-luxury brand. Now, let's just also say that in this scenario, Honda's elite line has also built an impressive reputation and the Acura SEX car is now THE car everyone wants and when you drive it, you immediately have a 2-foot dick and suddenly feel superior to everyone else.

So, back to this new car...it has a V8 and is RWD...costs 6-digits. But, it looks like the Aztek. You think the world will give it a pass and TRY to justify why it looks like an Aztek?

Personally, I think so.



It's all about perception. BMW has it in spades and can get away with it. Acura/Honda, not really.

Am I wrong?

 

Yumchah if you're attempting to argue that BMW gets a pass because well, its BMW....you're right. Not sure what you're point is though?

Its what every automaker aims for.

I think we can all agree the RL is a good car. But if a writer's bias of BMW, Audi and MB make it seem like the RL is dated and outclassed, even if its false, that's still Acura's problem. Its on them to prove otherwise.

Its also funny how we never heard claims of bias when Honda was winning comparo after comparo for several years. Suddenly when the shoes on the other foot the mag's are corrupt. Pretty sure the RL was C&D's ten best at one point.

People have always claimed C&D was guilty of BMW and Honda bias. Did Honda stop paying? Or are their products no longer deserving?

 

My point is that I think it's ridiculous carmakers do get a "pass" from truly objective criticism or reviews.

 

You're arguing that the X6 is ugly. Most reviews I've seen say the same thing.

 

Sorry Yum, I'm not getting your point....

If its that a manufacturer like BMW can make an X6 and get a pass, I'm not sure I agree with the basis of your argument. I don't think the X6 has gotten a pass. Most of what I've read has been 'why don't you just get an X5?'

That's not to say that the press hasn't lauded its driving characteristics, but I'm not sure that its gotten a pass just because its a BMW.

 

Well, I'd venture this extends to not magazines only, Herr Mod. But, whatever...this is not meant to be a pick-on BMW thing here because as I said before, it is perception.

I'm just wondering is it because Honda's conservative approach and lack of cars in certain segments (i.e. V8) creates this negative perception which leads to poorer opinions of them, that's all.

 

Again, maybe that's my perception?

I have nothing against them per se...and even seriously considered an X5d myself before jumping to the FX. But, perhaps it is more from what I observe here on AZ more than anything...

BMW makes something, weird or not, it's generally liked. Acura does it, tries someting weird...universal yuck. Again, I'm not trying to defend Acura/Honda here because that's not my angle. I'm more just wondering out loud about our perception of brands...

Maybe I'm confusing myself. I need more caffeine.

 

I do think people tend to put brands in their place, so to speak. Hence the moves to make brands like Acura, Scion, Saturn, etc.

To your point about Acura, I think the general perception about that company is that its a more polished Honda....but still Honda. They didn't do enough to differentiate. Its general knowledge that most of the line-up is based on a Honda platform.

Lexus and Infiniti don't have that perception because they seem well-differentiated. RWD vs FWD, V8s (or at least higher rated v6s), etc.

 

ttribe, I agree that the RL was neglected after 2008 with exception to adding the 6-speed AT and full time paddle shifters. I think that goes in with the statement about Honda deciding to postpone R&D in the wake of the credit bubble burst. When MT chose to do this comparo, the best Honda had was a car relying on 2004 technology. That is why it came in behind the others, and that is not MT's fault. The point of my post was to show that, even though Honda brought a practically 6 year old car to the table, it was written off as being an "unacceptable" "gas guzzler" when, in reality, the numbers were only slightly behind the top picks, and one of the top picks was chosen on styling alone. When this is the case, I don't think it is very valuable to say things such as this
to prove your point. I don't think it matters what scale you use to rate these cars. As long as subjective opinions aren't a factor, Honda isn't going to be too far behind the leaders if it is not leading. I can agree that they aren't leading the pack in as many categories as they used to, but they have not been beaten overwhelmingly. It just seems that way from reading magazines. That's all.

However, in light of the neglect that the RL has seen, Edmund's and other sources are reporting we can expect a brand new 2013 RL to reach our shores within a year. Here's to hoping that it is competitive, innovative, beak-less, and well accepted even next to a BMW.

 

LIAR! You hate the X6 and everything Bangle with every fibre of your being.

I don't think there's any question. But is it also not deserving? Automakers have to looked at as as a whole. And right now they have a few holes in the line up. No only on models but technology as well.

 

The Audi is a cool car, but the deep black grill somehow reminds me of my daughter in the third grade when she lost a front tooth.

 

This. (It's also why I believe Hyundai should spin off the Genesis variants and the Equus into its own brand at some point...but that's an argument for another day.)

To be fair, I'm not sure it is possible to "prove" a point in this argument because of the inherent subjectivity that goes with different tastes. Furthermore, I did provide a few more which seemed to support my perception/opinion and they all included the latest Honda model for the segments.

I absolutely agree. I'd love to see Acura get back in the game.

 

Im sorry but there is some bias in what your trying to say. Here is the same comparo from Motor trend back in 2005 when the RL came out compared to the current German Brands at the time. Their findings where similar to their 2009 test but the results much different.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n/viewall.html

Since the other brands improved their models since 2005 and Acura didnt, dont you think they deserved a higher placing?? There is usually much more to these type of comparo's than just the numbers.

Sorry but as Dom already mentioned its frustrating always seeing people say that the mags are bias whenever Honda/Acura doesnt win a comparo but when they they do that magazine is the most moral and honest publication out there.

I would disagree with you here. Car Talk has a very diverse group of people that can see positive and negatives in all brands including Honda/Acura. Its quite the opposite if you venture over to the TL or TSX boards.

Over there you hear the same thing that so and so purchased a Acura over a German brand because of value and that if you buy a German brand its because of the badge....BUT, when someone mentions they are looking at a high end mainstream model over an Acura and getting the same car but a better value all of a sudden all hell breaks loose.

Go to the TSX section and look at the TSX vs 2012 Camry SE thread and all of the TSX owners losing their minds over there, even though no one has any real facts to dissprove anything. Over here in Car Talk people could see and logically see why the comparisson is realistic and reasonable.

 

I can see where you might think that but some of it is deserving.

I remember reading that thread about the S4/S5 losing its MT in Europe.

While most people here where dissapointed, they probably werent too upset because of the alternantive provided by Audi.....A innovative 7sp DSG gearbox that can perform the same as the 6MT.

Myself and other have given kudos to Acura for putting a great 6MT in the 4G TL but if they dropped it I would be more upset than Audi doing so because Acura has nothing to back it up with but a highly innovative 6AT that everyone else has been using for years.

There is a big difference in performance between a AT or MT 4G TL vs the DSG and 6MT in a Audi S4.

In regards for brands getting a pass like BMW, you are correct in some cases but this works for every brand and their models and most earned it over the years for producing great vehicles.

Being a fellow Canadian you know the Civic has been the best selling car here for decades. If a Honda dealer bought a fleet of Lada's and put Civic badges on it they would still fly off the lots because of the Civic reputation. In Canada we also have the BMW 323i and until very recently the MB C230, both vehicles IMO are not a very good value compared to mainstream brands let alone luxury brands but sell because of the badge.

 

What do you mean if? Isn't that what they did with the 12' Civic?

 

I never argued why it came in where it did or that the results were fixed. I argued that there were editorial biases against the Acura. The article you posted and the article I posted were written very differently. The one you posted did not rely on hard numbers like mine did. The problem I have with mine is that they chose which numbers to point out and which ones to ignore when they justified their stance. They stacked the deck against the Acura and the feel by the end of the article is that it shouldn't have even been compared. The article you posted had very positive things to say about all of the models and explained why they FELT each car should be placed there. The article I posted used numbers that were almost constant across the models to downplay the RL. I have never said an article glorifying Honda is any more honest than another and never will based off of results. I take the all with a grain of salt and an objective perspective.

What you have proven is that MT is capable of using clear set standards when comparing cars, so thank you for bringing that to my attention. I just didn't feel like that in the article I posted. The justifications of the ranking were all over the place between the "facts" and opinions.

I hang out in the RL section.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I think if it were people who could be unbiased in their view of Honda/Acura, then this thread wouldn't be here. I find the reviews of the RL owners who switched from the RL or to the RL to/from other luxury sedans give the best opinions. To be honest, I don't LOVE the way my car looks at all angles, but I don't realize that when I drive it. I LOVE everything about it when I'm driving it. Owning two cars and making a comparison versus making assumptions on the way it looks in pictures and on paper are two different things. The majority of hate I see in car talk is on the styling Acura has adopted.

 

This thread is about a lot more than whether the RL gets a fair shake. We can all agree the RL is a very good car. But there's also a very good reason they sold 22 last month. Lets stop focusing on one model that gets unfairly (In your opinion) criticized by the media.

Are you suggesting there's nothing wrong with Honda/Acura and we're just biased against them?

 

 

dom, I am not suggesting that at all. I am suggesting to the newer guy who asked about the Acura hate on an "unofficial Acura enthusiast resource" that there are people who frequent Car Talk who are very upset with Honda/Acura and that they are going to express their discontent for what Honda/Acura is doing. I have clashed with these people before with the same question he had. They didn't leave, so if I feel like posting here I have to put up with it. That's my experience and advice for him. That is all.

 

at the end of the day, I take every person's comment with a grain of salt. everyone is entitled to their opinion, but just because a person has had bad luck with Honda/Acura doesn't give them the right to cutdown the brand on a forum dedicated to it.

sure, Car Talk is a general part of the forum with car enthusiasts that own various brands.

there's no reason we can't act like sensible adults, listen to what others are saying, and acknowledge their comments, all the while keeping to the topic at hand.

oo7spy, I remember reading that article in MT where it literally made it seem that the editors were belittling the RL in every way that they could while not looking at the simple hard #'s.

all I was ever trying to portray was that many automotive publications seem to be quite biased towards the germans, even though their respective offerings in the classes cost exponentially more while not offering(to me) features that are worth the inflated price tag.

when BMW was "Bangled", people made comments of the styling. when Acura released the 4G TL, a riot ensued and I could honestly picture the mob getting ready with their pitchforks and torches.

 

Let's take a five to drool over something spectacular:





Make sure to wipe the before proceeding.

 

I think you put it well here...

I don't think its hate at all. The expectations are simply higher because its an Honda/Acura enthusiast site. Do we sometimes get carried away with our demands/expectations, probably.

My biggest gripe with Honda right now is the lack of anything new on the power train front. Although I realize the J and K are nearing the end of their life cycles and we're probably nearing the debut of a new engine, the J at least should have been replaced by now.

The 2.4 in the Si also doesn't sit well with me. It has bean counters and cost cutting written all over it. They can spin it anyway they want, but cost was the driving factor behind that move.

 

^ that's a beautiful 4G.

but, I'm not on the totally hate the 4G bandwagon...

 

What is attractive about that 4G...the rims? Seriously.

 

Anonymous troll is insightful.

 

:noob:

 

About as clever as he is utile.

You remind me of George Reinas from Top Shot, tough on the outide, Jeresy girl at heart. You going to the Menlo Park Mall meet this weekened by any chance?

 

Anyway genius....I was asking a serious question about that 4G that you posted. What is arrtactive about it other than the rims?

You don't have to go get all butt hurt because the 4G is one of the ugliest cars on the road, and someone finally asked you about it.

 

Let's keep this on topic. We don't need yet another thread about the 4G's looks.

 

Get off your horse