General Car Talk Discussion Thread
08-17-2020, 04:46 PM
Team Owner
Rear.
I might install it to the Front (FWD, if your brother lives in LA... where rain is never a concern)
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiret...0rear%20tires.
I might install it to the Front (FWD, if your brother lives in LA... where rain is never a concern)
Have you guys been hearing/seeing about a replacement pair of tires going on the rear of a car?
I got a new pair of tires for my brother's Accord, and the shop insisted on putting the new pair on the rear of the car. Their logic being this discourages oversteer in a panic situation.
Found myself in another discussion about it today, and I can't wrap my head around new tires going on the rear of a car as sensible. Maybe on a RWD or AWD vehicle you'd have a case. To me, this seems like compromising front grip (very important) for rear grip (less important, especially with ABS and traction control).
Curious on the thoughts of you regulars.
I got a new pair of tires for my brother's Accord, and the shop insisted on putting the new pair on the rear of the car. Their logic being this discourages oversteer in a panic situation.
Found myself in another discussion about it today, and I can't wrap my head around new tires going on the rear of a car as sensible. Maybe on a RWD or AWD vehicle you'd have a case. To me, this seems like compromising front grip (very important) for rear grip (less important, especially with ABS and traction control).
Curious on the thoughts of you regulars.
Most vehicles are equipped with the same size tire at every wheel position. Ideally all of these tires should also be of the same type and design, have the same tread depth and be inflated to the pressures specified by the vehicle placard or owner's manual. This combination best retains the handling balance engineered into the vehicle by its manufacturer.
However, due to a front-wheel drive vehicle's front tires' responsibility for transmitting acceleration, steering and most of the braking forces, it's normal for them to wear faster than rear tires. Therefore, if the tires aren't rotated on a regular basis, tires will typically wear out in pairs rather than in sets. And if the tires aren't rotated at all, it's likely that the rear tires will still have about 1/2 of their original tread depth remaining when the front tires are completely worn out.
Intuition suggests that since the front tires wore out first and because there is still about half of the tread remaining on the rear tires, the new tires should be installed on the front axle. This will provide more wet and wintry traction; and by the time the front tires have worn out for the second time, the rear tires will be worn out, too. However, in this case, intuition isn't right...and following it can be downright dangerous.
"When tires are replaced in pairs...the new tires should always be installed on the rear axle and the partially worn tires moved to the front."
When tires are replaced in pairs in situations like these, the new tires should always be installed on the rear axle and the partially worn tires moved to the front. New tires on the rear axle help the driver more easily maintain control on wet roads since deeper treaded tires are better at resisting hydroplaning.
Hydroplaning occurs when the tire cannot process enough water through its tread design to maintain effective contact with the road. In moderate to heavy rain, water can pool up in road ruts, depressions and pockets adjacent to pavement expansion joints. At higher speeds, the standing water often found in these pools challenges a tire's ability to resist hydroplaning.
However, due to a front-wheel drive vehicle's front tires' responsibility for transmitting acceleration, steering and most of the braking forces, it's normal for them to wear faster than rear tires. Therefore, if the tires aren't rotated on a regular basis, tires will typically wear out in pairs rather than in sets. And if the tires aren't rotated at all, it's likely that the rear tires will still have about 1/2 of their original tread depth remaining when the front tires are completely worn out.
Intuition suggests that since the front tires wore out first and because there is still about half of the tread remaining on the rear tires, the new tires should be installed on the front axle. This will provide more wet and wintry traction; and by the time the front tires have worn out for the second time, the rear tires will be worn out, too. However, in this case, intuition isn't right...and following it can be downright dangerous.
"When tires are replaced in pairs...the new tires should always be installed on the rear axle and the partially worn tires moved to the front."
When tires are replaced in pairs in situations like these, the new tires should always be installed on the rear axle and the partially worn tires moved to the front. New tires on the rear axle help the driver more easily maintain control on wet roads since deeper treaded tires are better at resisting hydroplaning.
Hydroplaning occurs when the tire cannot process enough water through its tread design to maintain effective contact with the road. In moderate to heavy rain, water can pool up in road ruts, depressions and pockets adjacent to pavement expansion joints. At higher speeds, the standing water often found in these pools challenges a tire's ability to resist hydroplaning.
08-17-2020, 04:48 PM
Moderator
Wasn't applicable on the C, as it's got a staggered setup. But for a car with the same size on all 4 corners, I've always seen newest on the rear, if only buying 2.
I've experienced both instances with the C. For RWD at least, having more worn tires on the rear in the rain was much more sketchy.
08-17-2020, 04:50 PM
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I've always understood the premise there. But what about in 3-5k miles when you rotate front to back? Seems inevitable that the new ones end up on the front anyway at some point. 
08-17-2020, 04:53 PM
Team Owner
Rear. I typically buy tires in pairs and the cars have ridden fine with no abnormal wear nor oversteer issue. I take my i4 Accord safely up to 85-90 on the Turnpike with no issue.
08-17-2020, 04:55 PM
Team Owner
The whole point of tire rotation is to max. the life of the tires, so all 4 corners will wear out evenly. But since he is only buying 2, there will be a big difference between the new and the old.
But if his bro has kept up with the tire rotation on his old tires (assuming no other suspension issues), he should have bought 4, instead of 2.
I would suggest to keep the new ones in the rear, until he has to buy another 2 for the front, which he will put in the rear again.
But if his bro has kept up with the tire rotation on his old tires (assuming no other suspension issues), he should have bought 4, instead of 2.
I would suggest to keep the new ones in the rear, until he has to buy another 2 for the front, which he will put in the rear again.
08-18-2020, 12:19 AM
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mrmako (08-18-2020)
08-18-2020, 08:38 AM
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If we assume newer tires provide more grip than older tires, I think what I'm most skeptical about is compromising front braking for this increase in stability in wet weather.
We have tools like ABS, traction control, and the inherent balance of most cars towards understeer to improve vehicle stability in poor weather. But beyond ABS, the only thing that really dictates braking distance are your tires, and predominantly your front tires. The increase in stability in some conditions from putting new tires on the rear is done at the expense of braking distance in all conditions.
Judging by the tire manufacture dates, the dealer put a new pair of tires on the front of my brother's car when he bought it.
We have tools like ABS, traction control, and the inherent balance of most cars towards understeer to improve vehicle stability in poor weather. But beyond ABS, the only thing that really dictates braking distance are your tires, and predominantly your front tires. The increase in stability in some conditions from putting new tires on the rear is done at the expense of braking distance in all conditions.
Judging by the tire manufacture dates, the dealer put a new pair of tires on the front of my brother's car when he bought it.
08-18-2020, 08:50 AM
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If the fronts are so worn that braking is compromised, replace them.
If you replace the rears only, use a tire-depth gauge to determine when to rotate, rather than miles.
If you replace the rears only, use a tire-depth gauge to determine when to rotate, rather than miles.
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civicdrivr (08-18-2020)
08-18-2020, 09:47 AM
If we assume newer tires provide more grip than older tires, I think what I'm most skeptical about is compromising front braking for this increase in stability in wet weather.
We have tools like ABS, traction control, and the inherent balance of most cars towards understeer to improve vehicle stability in poor weather. But beyond ABS, the only thing that really dictates braking distance are your tires, and predominantly your front tires. The increase in stability in some conditions from putting new tires on the rear is done at the expense of braking distance in all conditions.
Judging by the tire manufacture dates, the dealer put a new pair of tires on the front of my brother's car when he bought it.
We have tools like ABS, traction control, and the inherent balance of most cars towards understeer to improve vehicle stability in poor weather. But beyond ABS, the only thing that really dictates braking distance are your tires, and predominantly your front tires. The increase in stability in some conditions from putting new tires on the rear is done at the expense of braking distance in all conditions.
Judging by the tire manufacture dates, the dealer put a new pair of tires on the front of my brother's car when he bought it.
However, the oversteer being more difficult to control is very relevant. If front tire tread is ultimately low enough to cause an issue in wet weather, a few things need to be considered.
- You should get new tires ASAP
- Probably should not be driving at all in this weather
- You are driving too fast for conditions
- Use earlier/more delicate/fewer inputs
If the front end washes out during a turn, there will be less catastrophic results with the average driver compared to when the rear comes around. I wouldn't have faith in most drivers to inherently know what to do in such a situation. When I took a safety driving course, I did the right things with my hands and feet and had the reaction time, but even then I didn't know that there was something else I was doing completely wrong until it was pointed out to me.
08-18-2020, 01:23 PM
Team Owner
Dealers only care about selling the car and in a condition that is best to market the car.
Also how worn are the rears? if they are still OK. then braking isn't compromised. It might not be as good as new but not compromised. Most of us don't drive on brand new tires everyday. Shit, my tires have 21k on them (summer runflat
) now and i cant even rotate them.
If your brother's rear tires are still ok... 5/32+, then that is when you should put the new ones int he rear. Losing traction the rear, especially for FWD cars is a lot more scarier for people than the front, especially in the rain. You can't even control the slide since it has no power in the rear.
Now if the current rears are at 3/32 or less, then it is time to get all 4.
If safety is a concern, just get all 4... all season tires are pretty cheap anyways assuming he doesnt have some 20s on his car.
You can't put a price on safety.
Also how worn are the rears? if they are still OK. then braking isn't compromised. It might not be as good as new but not compromised. Most of us don't drive on brand new tires everyday. Shit, my tires have 21k on them (summer runflat
) now and i cant even rotate them.If your brother's rear tires are still ok... 5/32+, then that is when you should put the new ones int he rear. Losing traction the rear, especially for FWD cars is a lot more scarier for people than the front, especially in the rain. You can't even control the slide since it has no power in the rear.
Now if the current rears are at 3/32 or less, then it is time to get all 4.
If safety is a concern, just get all 4... all season tires are pretty cheap anyways assuming he doesnt have some 20s on his car.
You can't put a price on safety.
If we assume newer tires provide more grip than older tires, I think what I'm most skeptical about is compromising front braking for this increase in stability in wet weather.
We have tools like ABS, traction control, and the inherent balance of most cars towards understeer to improve vehicle stability in poor weather. But beyond ABS, the only thing that really dictates braking distance are your tires, and predominantly your front tires. The increase in stability in some conditions from putting new tires on the rear is done at the expense of braking distance in all conditions.
Judging by the tire manufacture dates, the dealer put a new pair of tires on the front of my brother's car when he bought it.
We have tools like ABS, traction control, and the inherent balance of most cars towards understeer to improve vehicle stability in poor weather. But beyond ABS, the only thing that really dictates braking distance are your tires, and predominantly your front tires. The increase in stability in some conditions from putting new tires on the rear is done at the expense of braking distance in all conditions.
Judging by the tire manufacture dates, the dealer put a new pair of tires on the front of my brother's car when he bought it.
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Aman (08-18-2020)
08-18-2020, 04:40 PM
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Clearly I'm in the minority here. Reading the bolded quote ownawindow shared again, I see what I might have missed:
I didn't consider the role tread depth played in preventing hydroplaning, on top of just tire compound properties. It would make sense that tread depth is important in the wet for the same reasons winter tires and off-road tires have deeper treads. This probably is less of a factor in the dry than tire compound/hardness. I see how new tires with a deeper tread mounted on the rear can reduce the consequences of hydroplaning, without having as much of a negative consequence under heavy braking when dry.
TIL.
New tires on the rear axle help the driver more easily maintain control on wet roads since deeper treaded tires are better at resisting hydroplaning.
TIL.
08-18-2020, 04:55 PM
Team Owner
or per AZ guidelines: Or just go get a RWD car with staggered tires.. you never have to worry about rotating tires... You just replace them... 1 less thing to worry about.
08-18-2020, 05:51 PM
Moderator
In the case of the OE Contis on the C - every 16k miles.
Went with non-directional, so I could at least rotate L<>R.
08-18-2020, 08:12 PM
Someday, an RS6 Avant+
08-19-2020, 07:16 AM
Moderator
The OE Contis were something like a 200TW summer run-flat. They were great, until they were gone
Swapped to 500TW RE980AS Bridgestone All Seasons & it was night/day. Just as much grip, with a more compliant ride.
08-26-2020, 12:08 PM
Ex-OEM King
@00TL-P3.2 You guys hunkering down or leaving town with the hurricane inbound? Hoping for the best for you guys and anyone else in Houston.
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Aman (08-26-2020)
08-26-2020, 12:11 PM
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Socially distant hurricane party!
aka, drinking rum from the bottle on the couch.
aka, drinking rum from the bottle on the couch.
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justnspace (08-26-2020)
08-26-2020, 12:26 PM
2024 Honda Civic Type R
Meteorology fan here, and tracking the storm, Houston should be OK as it will landfall east of there and the worst winds and storm surge will remain east. But Laura is trying to get up to Cat 5 status by landfall. This will be just awful. Saw reports of 60ft waves. Storm surge will be devastating.
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justnspace (08-26-2020)
08-26-2020, 01:28 PM
we (not meteorologist fans) didnt expect Harvey to sit on top of us for so long....Hope Laura can move out faster
08-26-2020, 01:30 PM
08-26-2020, 01:59 PM
Drinking Hurricanes in the south... is that like ordering an Irish Car Bomb in the UK?
08-26-2020, 02:06 PM
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Nope.
It's what one does here when a storm is coming ashore.
It's what one does here when a storm is coming ashore.
08-26-2020, 02:30 PM
Moderator
@00TL-P3.2 You guys hunkering down or leaving town with the hurricane inbound? Hoping for the best for you guys and anyone else in Houston.
09-10-2020, 05:02 PM
Team Owner
https://www.motortrend.com/news/2020...n-test-review/
The most interesting part is under Porsche's spec 17.3 in front rotor Holy shit... before we used to say those rotors fill up the wheel really well... now the rotors are bigger than most of the wheels
The most interesting part is under Porsche's spec
17.3 in front rotor Holy shit... before we used to say those rotors fill up the wheel really well... now the rotors are bigger than most of the wheels
BRAKES, F; R 15.6-in vented, drilled disc; 14.6-in vented, drilled disc, ABS 15.6-in vented, drilled disc; 15.0-in vented, drilled disc, ABS 15.0-in vented, drilled disc; 13.0-in vented, drilled disc, ABS 15.8-in vented, drilled disc; 14.6-in vented, drilled disc, ABS 17.3-in vented, drilled carbon-ceramic disc; 16.1-in vented, drilled carbon-ceramic disc, ABS
09-19-2020, 01:38 PM
Senior Moderator
Really cool read of an NSX-R getting restoration and thorough clean: https://www.supercars.net/blog/watch...g-restoration/
I posted the video in the car video thread.
I posted the video in the car video thread.
09-21-2020, 07:42 AM
Team Owner
Really cool read of an NSX-R getting restoration and thorough clean: https://www.supercars.net/blog/watch...g-restoration/
I posted the video in the car video thread.
I posted the video in the car video thread.
So took my car to a Hometown Lube on Friday as I had a Groupon for $15. They weren't that busy at first but in the spot next to me was a Porsche Macan. Guy had been going there for years and I think he just got this car because the lube manager was looking up how much oil to fill and other things. The owner said one dealer typically charges $1K for an oil change. Well it ended up taking forever and the manager was short staff as it was him and one other dude. After 45 mins they finished my car and I was on my way.
Sunday, I change my brake pads and I notice I have a small oil spill. Turns out the drain plug was not very tight. I tighten it and it seems to be fine now but
Then I noticed my lower arm bushing is busted (2005 Accord). Fortunately wear hasn't been uneven that I can see. Today's lesson, next car do my own oil as annoying as it is.
09-21-2020, 10:25 AM
I'll be honest, I hate doing my own oil changes. It's messy, doesn't really save me much money, and takes too much time to transfer the oil from the drain pan to containers for recycling. They don't do curbside pickup here either, we have to drop it off at places that collect used oil. The only thing I get out of it is peace of mind, IMO.
I just found a guy that I could trust through an acquaintance, and let him do it lol.
I just found a guy that I could trust through an acquaintance, and let him do it lol.
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nist7 (09-21-2020)
09-21-2020, 10:50 AM
Turd Polisher
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I'll be honest, I hate doing my own oil changes. It's messy, doesn't really save me much money, and takes too much time to transfer the oil from the drain pan to containers for recycling. They don't do curbside pickup here either, we have to drop it off at places that collect used oil. The only thing I get out of it is peace of mind, IMO.
I just found a guy that I could trust through an acquaintance, and let him do it lol.
I just found a guy that I could trust through an acquaintance, and let him do it lol.
Only positive for me is having an excuse getting underneath my car to get a current status check.
Even then .. that usually ends with "Alright .. gotta order this ... gotta order this ... which I will eventually get to".
09-21-2020, 11:46 AM
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I constantly bounce back between "gosh that took so long, I should just get it done by someone else" and "gosh I should have just done it myself"
09-21-2020, 11:57 AM
Safety Car
Really cool read of an NSX-R getting restoration and thorough clean: https://www.supercars.net/blog/watch...g-restoration/
I posted the video in the car video thread.
I posted the video in the car video thread.
Love that red carpet/interior though....gorgeous car
09-21-2020, 01:30 PM
Whats up with RDX owners?
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I have one of those vacuum oil canister things that sucks the oil out through the dipstick. It works well enough, but every third oil change, I like to get under the car and drain from the pan to clear out everything and clean off the magnetic drain plug.
For the gf's car, I tell her to go to Honda. She's worried about the fuel dilution issue (and honestly, so am I), so it's just cheap insurance so they can't pull any bullshit if we have a warranty claim.
But for other things, I'm starting to value my time a bit more than I used to, and some repairs just aren't worth doing on my own.
Getting old sucks.
For the gf's car, I tell her to go to Honda. She's worried about the fuel dilution issue (and honestly, so am I), so it's just cheap insurance so they can't pull any bullshit if we have a warranty claim.
But for other things, I'm starting to value my time a bit more than I used to, and some repairs just aren't worth doing on my own.
Getting old sucks.
09-21-2020, 01:57 PM
Moderator
I don't mind the DIY work (and I'm cheap) so I'll usually do whatever I'm capable/able to do.
That said, rotating the tires on the Flex, sucks. Those 20" wheels must be made of Mercury.
When I was part of Germanzine, dealing with the lug bolts on the Mercedes makes it take slightly longer than just hanging the wheel on the studs.
That said, rotating the tires on the Flex, sucks. Those 20" wheels must be made of Mercury.
When I was part of Germanzine, dealing with the lug bolts on the Mercedes makes it take slightly longer than just hanging the wheel on the studs.
09-21-2020, 02:16 PM
Senior Moderator
Really cool read of an NSX-R getting restoration and thorough clean: https://www.supercars.net/blog/watch...g-restoration/
I posted the video in the car video thread.
I posted the video in the car video thread.
I'll be honest, I hate doing my own oil changes. It's messy, doesn't really save me much money, and takes too much time to transfer the oil from the drain pan to containers for recycling. They don't do curbside pickup here either, we have to drop it off at places that collect used oil. The only thing I get out of it is peace of mind, IMO.
I just found a guy that I could trust through an acquaintance, and let him do it lol.
I just found a guy that I could trust through an acquaintance, and let him do it lol.
I have one of those vacuum oil canister things that sucks the oil out through the dipstick. It works well enough, but every third oil change, I like to get under the car and drain from the pan to clear out everything and clean off the magnetic drain plug.
For the gf's car, I tell her to go to Honda. She's worried about the fuel dilution issue (and honestly, so am I), so it's just cheap insurance so they can't pull any bullshit if we have a warranty claim.
But for other things, I'm starting to value my time a bit more than I used to, and some repairs just aren't worth doing on my own.
Getting old sucks.
For the gf's car, I tell her to go to Honda. She's worried about the fuel dilution issue (and honestly, so am I), so it's just cheap insurance so they can't pull any bullshit if we have a warranty claim.
But for other things, I'm starting to value my time a bit more than I used to, and some repairs just aren't worth doing on my own.
Getting old sucks.
I don't mind the DIY work (and I'm cheap) so I'll usually do whatever I'm capable/able to do.
That said, rotating the tires on the Flex, sucks. Those 20" wheels must be made of Mercury.
When I was part of Germanzine, dealing with the lug bolts on the Mercedes makes it take slightly longer than just hanging the wheel on the studs.
That said, rotating the tires on the Flex, sucks. Those 20" wheels must be made of Mercury.
When I was part of Germanzine, dealing with the lug bolts on the Mercedes makes it take slightly longer than just hanging the wheel on the studs.
09-21-2020, 02:42 PM
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nist7 (09-23-2020)
09-21-2020, 02:46 PM
Whats up with RDX owners?
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I used to run the German Castrol 0W-40 in the FR-S. The German one specifically stated that it was a product of Germany, and apparently it was the higher quality oil.
But in the VW, I run Liquimoly. I used to run Motul, but it runs smoother on the LM.
But in the VW, I run Liquimoly. I used to run Motul, but it runs smoother on the LM.
09-21-2020, 02:48 PM
Ex-OEM King
I have one of those vacuum oil canister things that sucks the oil out through the dipstick. It works well enough, but every third oil change, I like to get under the car and drain from the pan to clear out everything and clean off the magnetic drain plug.
For the gf's car, I tell her to go to Honda. She's worried about the fuel dilution issue (and honestly, so am I), so it's just cheap insurance so they can't pull any bullshit if we have a warranty claim.
But for other things, I'm starting to value my time a bit more than I used to, and some repairs just aren't worth doing on my own.
Getting old sucks.
For the gf's car, I tell her to go to Honda. She's worried about the fuel dilution issue (and honestly, so am I), so it's just cheap insurance so they can't pull any bullshit if we have a warranty claim.
But for other things, I'm starting to value my time a bit more than I used to, and some repairs just aren't worth doing on my own.
Getting old sucks.
I take my vdub in to the dealer and let them deal with it. For the once a year change it gets, it's not worth my time/effort vs cost to deal with it. Same with the Subaru, just let the dealer take care of it. The Subaru dealership always has coupons and such anyway so it's like $50 to get the full service and fluid top off done.
Jeep, on the other hand, I DIY because I don't even have to lift it up to get to the drain plug lol and the filter is top side. Takes more time to get set up with tools than it does to actually change the oil.
I don't mind the DIY work (and I'm cheap) so I'll usually do whatever I'm capable/able to do.
That said, rotating the tires on the Flex, sucks. Those 20" wheels must be made of Mercury.
When I was part of Germanzine, dealing with the lug bolts on the Mercedes makes it take slightly longer than just hanging the wheel on the studs.
That said, rotating the tires on the Flex, sucks. Those 20" wheels must be made of Mercury.
When I was part of Germanzine, dealing with the lug bolts on the Mercedes makes it take slightly longer than just hanging the wheel on the studs.
09-21-2020, 03:45 PM
Moderator
New wheels/tire combos are pretty heavy, maybe lead vs mercury! I've found cheating with a furniture dolly helps quite a bit! Put rim on the furniture dolly and move it around to get it to line up. With VW/Audi/BMW/Euro lug bolts I cuss every time before mounting them back on and getting those bad boys to line up.
Though, with how tall it is, you just need to lift enough to break ground contact (though I guess that would work with most cars
.
09-21-2020, 04:02 PM
Ex-OEM King
They are ~90lbs each. The ones on the wheels aren't a big deal, it's the spare tire on the back that's a challenge.
09-21-2020, 04:41 PM
Moderator
Don't skip leg day.
09-21-2020, 05:10 PM
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I'll sit down on a stool or even on the ground when mounting wheels. Probably not the safest, but I can use my feet to help lift and it's not nearly as backbreaking.
My '03 VWs had that, but the '14 Passat didn't. It wasn't markedly quicker or easier, IMO.
I'd love to know if NASCAR crews do anything unique to get wheels on the right way every time. Sometimes it feels like F1 pit crews struggle more with centre lock wheels than NASCAR crews do with studded hubs.
I'd love to know if NASCAR crews do anything unique to get wheels on the right way every time. Sometimes it feels like F1 pit crews struggle more with centre lock wheels than NASCAR crews do with studded hubs.