Sarlacc

I don't think anyone is saying Acura has made or needs to make a high performance line of variants. But don't forget BMW has the M Sport, Audi has the S-Line, Lexus the F Sport, Merc whatever their version is called. Which are basically what the Type S models used to be.

But the NSX and the GSR could take M3's to task in professional competition back in their respective days.

And while the TLX might drive well. Its design sucks. In and out. There is nothing to set it off from the competition. See one on the road and most people who know acura might think its a TSX at first...most wont even pay it any attention as it blends in.

When you see a Ford Fusion...You KNOW what that is. A Charger, a 300, a 5 series, an E class, an IS, RF, or GS. I don't even like Merc that much, but their designs definitely stick out.

Acura is a company lost in the vanilla while everyone else added some flavor.

Nexx

look when it comes to appearance its subjective. i personally like, dont love the design of the tlx. the average person can easily mistake a ES with a GS, hell all the 3 series looks like a small 5 series. i dont buy that argument.

Sarlacc

True to a point...but I think Acura's overall sales lead to a similar conclusion.

Where they once were growing and climbing...they are now back seat and competition has grown up around them, while the big boys they were chasing after left them in the dust.

Sarlacc

Disagree

TacoBello

Funny how Nexx continues on, even after being disproved by his own evidence...

Nexx

elaborate....

TacoBello

Refer to my posts in page 2.

Saintor

I guess that you need to learn how to READ.

Nexx

lol my bad.

Nexx

in the end, it sounds "enthusiasts" here want acura to produce something it never has had to being with. they have never anything really that led its class in performance. they have never produced anything in the realm of the M series or the AMG series. they make competitive cars in its segment at a lower price, generally leading in resale value, fuel efficiency, and safety. dont let the type-s badges in the past fool you into thinking you were driving some sort of super car. they were marginally better than the sister car. would i like if acura built a 500hp v8 rwd/awd tlx yeah. would i buy, probably not especially at the 50 to 60k price range it would merit nor would most "enthusiast" buyers here. if you just want to be associated with a brand that has these sort of vehicles even though you couldnt or wouldnt buy one doesnt make much sense to me.

Sarlacc

Again. You're misreading, misinterpreting, or misunderstanding what the enthusiasts want from Acura.

Nexx

then what do they want? i just want clear explanation. i keep on reading how the enthusiasts what leading class performance like they have had in the past. i argue they never built anything like that. so do they want?

YeuEmMaiMai

Offering similar performance for over $7k less IS wiping the floor with them... might want to read the article you posted a little closer next time

Sarlacc

I mean really, are you retarded.

Sarlacc

Taking a tangent...it depends on what you define as class leading performance. It has been shown that Honda/Acura did very much make vehicles that lead and dominated in the handling department.

What do I want to see...I would love to see the rebirth of the Prelude (minus the 4th gen). Stand-out and unique styling with a high revving engine and top of the class handling. It will never happen, so I needn't worry about ever wanting to get one.

Where is the follow up to the s2000? Where is the vapor wear NSX? What happened to the Integra RSX?

How come we can get exciting and economical offerings from Fiat (Abarth) and Ford (Focus and Fiesta ST) That make the Civic Si look like a worn out turd on wheels?

It doesn't HAVE to be a hardcore performance variant to appeal to an enthusiast, Ive listed that just as I've already laid out the reasons why I think Acura has fallen behind and is stagnant. If you can't get off that single track thought running through your head, than there is no point in debating anymore or for you to continue posting in here is there? Because no one else agrees with you.

panamera125

I don't know about this. Maybe in the very high end, that's true, but as far as 90% of cars are concerned, have they been left behind?

Acura sells a lot of TLXs on the sedan side. BMW sells a lot of 3 series, Lexus a lot of ES and IS cars, etc. The TLX, while "boring" to some, has a huge price advantage, while having comparable performance, technology and luxury features. Right now, that's Acura's selling point, and they are not doing bad on that basis, although not as well as Lexus or BMW is doing on the whole. (vs. BMW, I'd gladly take a TLX Tech i4 over a BMW 320i with nothing on it. More power, more features, and at that price, nicer interior. So far behind, you say? At least the TLX makes do without fake plastic trim or vinyl seats like the BMW has). A TLX Advance is a much nicer car than a base 335i with no options.

Also, we aren't considering SUVs. Acura is the luxury SUV king right now, we all know that. The MDX wins most comparisons, and the 16 RDX will have potential. We know it beats out almost all the competition in sales (I'm considering competition X3, NX, Q5 (awfully close), etc., not RX though). MDX and RDX give customers exactly what they want. That's it. Customers don't want 500hp, 22" wheels or a rough suspension, so Acura doesn't offer it. We can only hope that strong sales will give Acura a little more money for cars like the NSX, or other performance cars.

panamera125

Okay now you're just being a troll. Come on, that's ridiculous. Here's some about the 2015 Si:

Randy Pobst, Motor Trend's track driver on whether or not to buy an Si:

"Absolutely, it’s fabulous. The only thing wrong with it is it’ll spoil them because it shifts so well. What’s neat is it shifts. It still has a manual -- a real, live manual -- and a very good one. I enjoy that so much. I miss it when I drive cars with the modern versions of different automatics."

Autoweek:

"How about the six-speed manual? It’s also the best in the business with slick gear engagement and short throws. Clutch take-up is right where I prefer it in the middle of the pedal stroke. Combine all that with the four-cylinder’s excellent throttle response and you have a great car for rev-matching for downshifts."

Christopher Nelson for Automobile Magazine:

"The Si is fantastic, on and off of the road course. My three-hour drive home from the track was comfortable and uneventful, which is what you want after a day of high-speed passes and close calls."

"A worn out turd" Really? Are we that immature? This car isn't as fast as a Focus ST, but it still is a great performance car all on its own.

dallison

i think a gs or ls will be our next car. We'll even look at an e series too since they seem to be pretty reliable.

Sarlacc

you're going to call me a troll and then attempt to cast me as immature...coming from a kid who is admittedly riding on Honda/Acura's dick?

The civic Si used be a standout sub compact for enthusiasts. The ep3 was a misstep but they came back nicely with the 8th gen. This current one...does nothing. More or less the same car with uglier sheet metal and a shitty interior design from the 80s.

You used to have to have the si and the gti. Now you have the ST, in two flavors. HAD the MS3. The Abarth. Etc

The competition grew and blew past the si. It's got a great shifter? La see dah. Honda has always had a great silky smooth shifter with the s2000 being the best. But a shifter doesn't make an entire car.

Is it capable, no one is saying no. Has it become stale and boring and fallen behind the competition. Yup. Deal with it.

Sarlacc

Actually...the RX is the king of the SUV world. Both new and used.

And the tlx...on the sedan side...it's one of two sedans they sell! They sell two sedans and two SUVs. Give me a break.

BMW And Mercedes are busy over saturating and watering down their product line up. Acura is so dry their CEO pisses dust.

neuronbob

Um, no, he is not a troll. I happen to agree with him and I'm a 25-year Hondacura owner. You also make good arguments. Don't spoil the debate with namecalling.

That goes for everyone.....any time you have to call someone names, you've already lost the debate.

Spirited debate, yes. Unpleasantries=vacation from the site.

majin ssj eric

Unfortunately I gave up on Honda/Acura a loooooong time ago. I've had two Civic's (92 LX and 06 Si), two Accords (91 EX and 93 SE), two Preludes (94 and 95 VTEC's), a CR-X Si (86), and a TSX (04) and I absolutely loved every one of those cars (well the Civic LX wasn't really that great but was my very first car and perfect for that). Still one of my all time favorite cars, my two Prelude VTEC's really exemplified all that was great about early to mid nineties Honda and my first model year TSX was a really, really nice car (too bad they never got it right again). Today what are we left with if we want to buy a Honda/Acura? OP nailed it: Soulless. And that's a real shame when you consider that in 1989 Ayrton Senna (possibly the most soul-FUL racing driver ever) was helping to design the NSX for the only Japanese car maker that had any soul at all! Honda today is basically just a less successful Toyota in almost every way and that makes me sad. My 2009 Hyundai Genesis sedan is twice the car of ANY of Honda/Acura's current lineup and gets everything right that the big "H" refuses to even attempt (RWD, 8-speed in-house tranny, modern features like heated and cooled seats front and rear, etc). You want to see what a hungry, take-no-prisoners, up and coming car company looks like? Check out Hyundai/Kia which is pretty close to what the late 80's/early 90's Honda/Acura used to be....

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

Our "E" has been awesome. But honestly, our A4 and A6 were as well. No problems with either. I will admit that as much as I am pro-German cars I got a little nervous about keeping the Audi's out of warranty... so when the A6 was near expiration (~85k as we had the extended warranty) we traded it in for the E350. That said with the E350 we did not purchase an extended warranty and we are now around 65k and going strong. Other then tires and scheduled maintenance we've only added fuel.

That said the GS and LS are sweet as well. I think we're leaning Panamera S for our MB replacement but the GS and LS may get a glance also...

Speaking of which... panamera125... how do you like yours? Any issues?

SamDoe1

^ What year is your E class?

SamDoe1

I deleted the rest of your post because I hope we can agree that it's not just a shifter that makes a car great. All of the other cars posted have "real manuals" as well.

Here's the catch in your statement. The Civic Si is not STILL a great performance car, it WAS a great performance car. Is it fun to drive? Sure. Is it going to keep up with the competition which is also fun to drive? Absolutely not. The competition has effectively left it in the dust. The Civic Si would currently get destroyed by the ST, GTI, etc. and just wait until the RS and Golf R hit the market. Both of those will dominate the CTR too.

Please tell me which Honda product currently available can compete with a Focus ST or Taurus SHO? When a fucking Taurus is available with a 370hp twin turbo V6 and your product line does not...there's a problem.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

You thinking AMG?


2010

Sarlacc

Yeah..but does the AMG package have a different name like M sport and S line for non-amg cars?

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

Not really. It's usually just called an AMG package.

Example, our E350 has the sport package (lower suspension, larger sportier wheels, etc) but not the AMG package... so there is nothing labeled AMG on it...

ttribe

Fair enough. Perhaps I should have said that having a second (or third) car to play with just isn't a possibility for most of us, hence the additional frustration that we can't get what we really liked from these brands anymore.

wildeklave

Acura needs to find its identity. Since Acura is onlyh in North America the brand is hurt a bit compared to Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, and Audi.

The current identity is KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid). That means have only a few vehicles (ILX in the 182 in car category, TLX in the 190 in car category, RLX in the 196 in car category, RDX in the 183 in SUV category, and the MDX in the 193 in SUV category). They try to use as many components as possible across the line (ie. same engines, same underpinnings, etc...).

Where Acura is weak is that they are a laggard with innovation. They have been waiting for other companies to introduce new technologies before they do. Even worse, they release these techs on Honda vehicles before Acura vehicles. Honda / Acura was late with LED DRLs, Blind Spot warning, Collision assist, parking assist, etc... it is ridiculous to think that the ILX and RDX are 1st getting these techs in the 2016 refresh when mainstream models like the Ford Escape, Jeep Cherokee, Nissan Rogue, etc... have had these tech features for at least a year.

Acura has also decided to remove visible tailpipes in what some call a neutering down of the vehicle looks. While Lexus has brought out an aggressive looking vehicle in the NX, Acura has gone the opposite direction.

I fear Acura is now in a Buick, Lincoln, Chrysler category and not with Lexus, BMW, and Audi any longer.

TacoBello

I don't know about this... There are rumours the new CTR will be a high revving engine with turbo. If Honda pulls its head out of its ass, they just might be able to make a competitive CTR... Now the only problem is whether or not we'll ever even see it on our shores

Back in the day, I remember my '92 Si would run neck and neck with my friend's '94 GTI, with me finally pulling away on the 3rd or 4th race and I think that was simply due to him mis-shifting. I think I you're right in saying that today's Si would get its ass handed by today's GTI.

Per Car and Driver:
Si: 205hp@7000rpm, 174lbft@4400rpm, 3000lbs, 0-60 in 6.5, 1/4 mile in 15.1
GTI: 220hp@4700rpm, 258lbft@1500rpm, 3100lbs, 0-60 in 5.8, 1/4 mile in 14.4

The GTI even out brakes the Si by 9ft going from 70-0, even though it weighs 100 pounds more.

SamDoe1

No way we see a CTR in the US. Maybe some half assed version of it that uses a similar motor but not a real CTR. In any case, unless that new high revving turbo motor is pushing more than 330hp to all four wheels, it's going to get destroyed. Focus RS is rumored to have 350hp to all four wheels from a 2.3L turbo (Mustang engine) and the Golf R has a 292hp 2.0L turbo 4 but they are well known for making the most out of each and every one of those 292hp and putting the power to all four wheels.

Lets face it, the next gen CTR would have been relevant for the prior gen of all of these cars. It would be a miracle if Honda produces something that can actually compete in the performance realm (outside of F1).

Edit to add: Next gen CTR has a 2.0L turbo 4 putting down "up to" 290bhp. So less than the Golf R and much less than the Focus RS.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

It's funny b/c we saw a new Chrysler 200 on the road the other day and my wife took notice. We did the same thing when the Lincoln MKZ was released as it has a nice road presence. First thought I had was that it's been many, many years since an Acura made either of us take notice like that... and that's sad.

oonowindoo

The moment Si lost its 8k rev, it has finally lost its last bit of "Si" to me...

Si engines have always been slightly more performance oriented tuned than its counterpart since the 90s.

Can anyone tell me what is the difference between the 2.4 Si engine and TSX's? or even Accord's?

TacoBello

Oh, I don't disagree at all. Like I said, Honda HAS the potential to build a solid competitor, but we'll see if they actually do. It'll be interesting to see if the CTR stays FWD (likely) or if it goes to AWD like everyone else. I don't even want to speculate until the car's official specs are announced.

Nexx kept saying that we are expecting something from Acura that they never have built before and will never build now because it's not who they are- I have a problem with that statement. Ford and VW never used to build cars like they are building now either, yet they're doing it now to stay relevant. Who's the odd man out? Honda!

Sure, maybe the Focus RS was around in Europe in the past, but never here. But Ford is getting their stuff together and realizing that people want a car like that here and as such, are bringing it here. I wonder if Honda will be foolish yet again and keep the REAL CTR from hitting our shores once again. The sad thing is, there IS demand for such a car from Honda.

TacoBello

The biggest killer for me was the loss of double wishbone suspension in favor of macpherson strut setup.

And there's a major difference between the TSX engine and the Civic Si engine- One has an "A" on top, while the other has an "H". Jeez!!

And the Accord and Si engines are completely different too! they, uh, er... well um... hmmm.... yeah.

reporterstats

To be fair to Acura, because they are competing in an American market it's very tough.
BMW/MERCEDES/LEXUS all sold over 300,000 units this year and will probably do it again next year. Those three brands are just such big factors among the upscale mainstream buyers that it's hard to envision Acura making a dent. Just look at Acura's Japanese counter part.

ct/IS/ES/GS/LS
NX/RX/GX/LX
RC/RCF(GSF coming)
LFA Halo

I think it all have to do with company mentality and make up. Lexus pushing out all these new models and going in a new direction because they lost 1st place and keep finishing 3rd. That's the mentality of a winning company. When you are the third best selling upscale brand in America and you still consider yourself to be 'failing' and 'falling behind'. So you refresh and send out a entire new generation of styles+models.
Acura have the ability and potential to easily sell 200,000+ in America. In fact they were headed in the right direction during the early and mid 2000's, but something happened and they haven't recovered yet. I just think it's very tough for Acura because other than the traditional big 3 sellers(Lex/mb/bmw) Audi have also emerged. Audi always had the prestige and line up in the rest of the World, they just never had the reputation or the marketing power in the United States. That changed over the last half decade and Audi is now clearly a powerhouse. Which takes away even more sells for Acura.

What can Acura possibly do? They are NOT the kings of the SUV world. Lexus got that on lock with an amazing offering of NX/RX/GX.........Those are stylish,luxurious and priced right. Acura in the entry market have to go against the legendary 3 series, C Class, new and successful IS, A4, ATS, even the ES etc etc..............
Even if Acura comes out with a performance coupe or model they have to go against the iconic AMG/M models. If they try to 'offer more for the money'.............Lexus got the RC 350/RCF............essentially giving the same kind of deals and offerings+reliability but with the additional bonus that it's a higher brand.


I think Acura should just market themselves as a better and sexier alternative to Buick. Than after finding success there, slowly move back up and go against the Germans+Lexus.

TacoBello

Yes, you're right!

There was a time when people looked at Acura as being greater and better than Lexus.... but Acura decided to let that slip away, while Lexus kept doing everything in their power to build momentum. Yes, Lexus now dominates the SUV market, but there was a time when they had no SUVs at all. That company does not settle for 2nd best- and if it does get 2nd best, like you said, they do whatever they can to be on top.

You gotta admire a company like that.

Rockstar21

iTrader: (1)

was the guy driving this CL-S missing his right arm?

or did you dig up the auto times?

TacoBello

C&D says those are the 6-speed times... Makes you wonder sometimes if and how biased the tests actually are. Maybe they're not. Who knows