YeuEmMaiMai

If Ford can make a 2+ton car do the 60 sprint in WELL UNDER 5.5 seconds......... Acura should have no troubles either...

Nexx

so we live our lives 0-60 at a time? how about 25mpg to 29 mpg to 34mpg? seriously, how fast does your 0-60 need to be? so does that mean every tlx in future should be faster and faster? where does that end? i understand why you went the direction you went. you went with a brand that supports it. acura just was NEVER in that market. that doesnt make it wrong.

Sarlacc

Nexx...just out of curiosity, how old are you?

Nexx

im 38. just to give you an idea of what kind of cars ive owned and currently drive.

91 mustang gt
91 300zx tt
98 camaro ss
87 mr2
03 civic si
04 350z (built, greddy twins + all supporting mods pushing 14psi 525whp, my weekend car)
07 tl base
07 tl type-s (daily)
01 X5 (grocery getter)
13 tsx se (leasing for my lady)
11 g37s coupe
12 g37s coupe

Sarlacc

Thats a nice varied collection. I asked because I think your assessment of what those of us who enjoyed or were fans of acura was back in the day is incorrect.

Acura was a game changer and Honda still made cars based of their race bred technology. They were never the fastest cars...but even for FWD they were some of the best handling cars of their day. The NSX, The Integra GSR, and the Prelude Type SH were all tracks stars. And on local streets they were just fun. They innovated and gave you features you didn't find in other cars at the time such as 4WS. Double wishbone suspensions in an affordable package. The designs...they were stylish and appealing. The 2nd gen Legend Coupe is a timeless design.

Did any of these cars have the best interior materials? No...but look at the competition. Lexus was a bit nicer but not much, and it depends on the model the ES250 and follow up ES300 were not that great inside. BMWs and Mercedes had their fair amount of hard plastics, etc.

The PROBLEM is Honda/Acura stagnated. innovation fell in line with everyone else, design...like everyone else says. The 3G TL was last great design Acura had. I don't care what you say about the car. Its styling was stand out and people took notice of it. The 4G TL...train wreck. The cheaped out with macpherson front struts. Their marketing was horrible. The company kept floundering between saying their were going to move to tier 1...next they were going to remain entry level luxury. Reality is people running the show had no clue WHAT they wanted Acura to be...meanwhile Honda was losing their "sporty" feel and moving more into the neutral/cushy Toyota realm.

Look at the current gen Civic...Honda fucked that car up royally and ran back with their tails between their legs after 1 model year to make changes to play catch up. Honda sort of got with it with the current Accord, go back to smaller and better handling. Clean design.

Acura...they have nothing exciting in their line up. The TLX...its their least boring or offensive design in years...but there is nothing exceptional about it, and I still feel they missed the mark in some areas like the headlights/bumper flow and the rear end, its a design that will age quickly and offend none. The interior. I was bored sitting in it. And I didn't like the driver entry/exit. I think the dual screen design is wasteful. The RLX...its a joke to look at inside and out. I can't stand the design. The MDX...boring. The interior, more boring. Rode in one shooting a commercial for it and I was just left going meh. Personally, I can't stand the jewel headlights.

Acura's biggest problem without having any real direction? And something they didn't face in the late 80's and the 90s...hell even the early part of the 00's....competition. Especially from the domestics. Well, those guys have risen up, got with the program and offer exciting vehicles with great designs, awesome handling, and lots of tech...at very competitive prices. Many may not have a "luxury" marque but they are pretty much luxury cars.

So, yeah I believe there was a hey day for Acura that is more than just a trumped up memory of something that never really existed. But its a day long gone. When I got my last 5 vehicles I never even considered Honda or Acura, just no desire. But there was a time when I would have, and did, have them in the mix.

TacoBello

Nexx, what you're failing to understand is that the TL Type-S wasn't a game changer, or leaps and bounds ahead of its competitors, but that it was a sport version of a regular, 4 door, family sedan. It stood out amongst the sea of plain jane Acuras, and yet, I have to agree, it could have been a little better...

But that being said, the 1992 Civic Si hatchback, 1999 Civic SiR coupe, 2000 Integra GS-R I had, along with my friends 1992 Integra GS-R, 1994 Legend GS 6MT, 1999 and 2000 Integra GS-R, 2008 S2000, 1998 NSX, 1997 Prelude SH, multiple 1991 CRX Si, 1997 Del Sol Si, 1993 Prelude SR-V, etc, etc all were the top level sport models of their respective selves and they drew many people to them. Many of the cars (well, all) of them cried for more power and all were FWD, save for the S2k and NSX. But they were awesome. They weren't anemic. Their little engines screamed to redline. They handled like bats out of hell, straight from the factory and even after 10-15+ years of daily use with little maintenance in between. There was a time when you'd see these cars, modified or not, and turn your head to watch them go by. The last honda/acura I still do that with was produced in 2008 (both the TL-S and S2k). That's now 7 years of stagnation. Of plain Cheerios. What we want is the Apple Jacks, or Honey Nut flavoured Cheerios again.

Fuel economy? No one ever gave a damn about fuel economy in any of the cars I mentioned above, as they all had pretty damn good fuel economy for what they were. They may have not been class leading, but for a car that can make you smile from ear to ear as you mash the pedal to hear the WOT, it was great fuel economy with a greater fun factor. I remember getting close to 500km on 40L of fuel, regularly in my 1992 Civic Si.

Heh... The good ol' days... And I'm not even 30 yet.

neuronbob

Yes, it's been corrected, and with remarkable speed for a large, worldwide company. Noted in November, inspections started at beginning of December, rapidly progressing with rapid clearance or fix of cars.

Acura means business with the TLX. I maintain that they will eventually make an enthusiast version. It probably won't be when we want it, though.

The push button shifter is pretty good, it is Honda-ergonomic. Took me five minutes to get used to it in my RLX. I can run it in the dark without looking at it. Frees up lots of room on the center console. Ya, it's weird at first but now second nature. For days I need a shifter....that's what my S2000 and CTS-V are for.

No cars for enthusiasts right now....but like the Cleveland Browns fan I am, "there's always next year",

Pseudomaniac

iTrader: (1)

If they meant business with the TLX, it wouldn't have gone to market inferior across the board. I'd have to disagree. Their marketing campaign of it being "the one we built for us" is a facade on a car full of compromise.

Car and Driver - "All things considered, the TLX stacks up as a decent new entry-luxury sedan. But “an adrenaline rush like no other”? Not so much."

Motor Authority - "Why is that? Because the TLX’s materials, while nice, don’t shout true premium—certainly not in the way the 2015 Mercedes-Benz C-Class does. The design, from the dual-screen infotainment layout, to the seats, to the rather plain and bleak passenger side of the dashboard, falls short of the style-meets-comfort aesthetic found in the upper end of the class, too. That’s not to say the car truly disappoints in any of those respects; it just doesn’t make as good a first (or second) impression."

The consistent lines from all reviews on this car are this:

The V-6 sucks. The V-6 trans sucks. The brakes can't handle the V6 weight, and neither can the tires. The kind of underpowered 4 cylinder version is a lot of fun to drive because the trans is very good, and for a 4 cylinder car it's pretty nice inside, but you can't get any extra equipment installed to make it any nicer than an ILX.

Car and Driver ranks it 7th out of 12 in the entry luxury market, with Volkswagon, Lincoln, Infiniti, and Buick beneath it.

Leatherette. Leatherette? Leatherette. Standard. Enough said. Are we really having this conversation on a premium brand?

50k BMW 4 300hp/300 ft/lbs 0-60 in mid 4s. Observed 27MPG - RWD
50k benz C400. 330hp/350 ft/lbs. 0-60 in sub 5. Observed 29MPG - AWD
50k TLX SHAWD. 290hp/267 ft/lbs. 0-60 in mid 5s. Observed 27MPG - AWD

I took a long look at this thing, because IMO, it's the prettiest thing they've built in 10 years. It doesn't stack up with the competition, and the shortcomings are pretty hefty in the performance arena with yet another sub-par gearbox on the big motor.

Their focus on this car was clearly the 4 banger. If that's what you're after, and you find the ILX too Civic-like, then it's your horse. If you want an adult car that can still make you smile when you feel like pushing it a little, there's nothing in the Acura lineup IMO, and I did drive an RLX sport hybrid. Comfy - but sluggish - and 70k buys an S class AMG car under 3 year warranty.

Legend2TL

S63 AMG Luxury Sports Sedan | Mercedes-Benz

AMG S63 is 141K, not 70k. Comparing new vs used is not comparable.

Pseudomaniac

iTrader: (1)

I see. So as a shopper, it's not fair to compare vehicles on the market side by side regardless of origin?

It did just cost Acura a 50k sale in my case.

Legend2TL

As a shopper sure, but to make a comparison against a new RLX to show what a poor value it is no. It also cost BMW, MB, Cadillac, ..... a sale as well.

BTW, Bob Lutz totally disagrees with your assessment on the J-series

neuronbob

Just to +1 the Honda doesn't care about enthusiasts comments again, look at the year end sales results. Wow on 65k MDXs sold and 19k TLXs since release.

No matter what we say about lack of enthusiast cars from Honda as a whole, Honda is doing just fine without enthusiasts. They can afford not to care as long as they are selling 65 MDXs and are only constrained in TLX sales by how many they can build.

Which sucks for us, the enthusiasts.

Pseudomaniac

iTrader: (1)

^^ Exactly. Vanilla market is where they're making their money.

SamDoe1

Have you driven a 9G Accord? If so, that's how the TLX drives except for you feeling about $10k lighter in the wallet.

When your marketing slogan is "It's that kind of thrill", fuel economy means jack sh1t. You're not selling gas mileage, you're selling performance and fun. And Acura is sucking the big one for both. You can get a 328i and 528i that both cost about the same as the TLX, both having better performance and getting better gas mileage.

So I'm sorry but I greatly disagree, they are putting themselves in that market with that slogan and their advertising.

For the people that don't have the money/space/time for having a daily driver and fun car being separate machines, that becomes a problem though... If one wants a fun, sporty, practical, fast, and reliable daily driver to be their only car, what do you buy? Focus ST or VW GTI (sketchy on the reliable part though) are the only ones that comes to mind...

Nexx

Vanilla market is 99% of the business

ttribe

C'mon, Bob. You know better than to hold yourself out as the norm. Most of us have one car that is both DD and toy.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

Vanilla market is where most all car companies make their money. You think the LFA or RC-F are what is keeping Lexus profitable? Nope, it's the ES and RX. Same with Nissan... the GTR isn't paying the bills, but they still make it. The enthusiast who owns the RC-F is more likely going to pick up an ES, GS, or RX when the time for a new family car comes around before he even thinks of straying from the brand.

So yeah, it sucks Honda/Acura is ignoring the enthusiasts. I loved my '02 TLS, so much so I bought it in 2001... but I have been Acura free since I sold it in 2005. And every year I quietly keep an eye on the Automotive News section of Acurazine waiting to see what (if anything) Acura is going to come up with next, hoping they can lure me back. I look with even greater anticipation when a new model or full redesign is due. And so far, nothing. Just let down after let down for over a decade. I honestly don't know why I still even look. And it's for that reason that we are a German family now (minus the trucks).

neuronbob

I don't hold myself out as the norm. But Honda/Acura apparently thinks I should be....and that's a problem. Adds to a point made earlier in the thread in which I said that Honda expects those who want an enthusiast car to leave the brand. So I did for a few years.

Believe it or not, the Sport Hybrid comes close (at least drivetrain-wise) to enthusiast pretentions in Acura world right now. Properly fast and pretty good handling for a 2 ton car. It's not a sports car by any means, however.

Sarlacc

Agreed. But look at Lexus' current styling and interior on their bread and butter cars. A company once thought of as nothing but vanilla and for drivers over 60 is now tearing it up.

Legend2TL

Where did you see 29MPG observed in the C400?
C&D only got 22.

Mercedes-Benz C-class Reviews - Mercedes-Benz C-class Price, Photos, and Specs - CARandDRIVER

And leatherette is standard on the 528i, a vehicle that starts at $50k.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

Oh yeah, they're stepping it up for sure. They've added hot fudge and caramel to their vanilla... and that is why they are crushing it.

TacoBello

Put side by side, I'd choose the Lexus hands down over the equivalent Acura these days. 10-15 years ago, not a chance.

It is true the GTRs or LFAs or RCFs don't make the companies much, if any money at all, but they give a brand an identity in such a way that marketing "it's that kind of thrill" can't. I can't really put on paper what cars like that do for a company, but it's definitely there and it's definitely noticeable.

Nexx

comparably equipped 528i is $58,100.00 vs $40,170.00 on a tlx tech v6
comparably equipped 328k is $48,150.00 vs 40,170.00 on tlx tech v6

both are faster? doing my home work i see 328i having about the same performance as tlx v6 and with the 528i being slightly slower than both.

l was just pointing out the fuel efficiency as an additional benefit nothing more.

Nexx

so what are you driving these days?

knight rider

iTrader: (1)

That's it right there. However, I disagree that the LF-A owner is going to pick up a RX with his spare change. They already have an Escalade or Range Rover.

One this is for sure. Honda / Acura is not run by car guys.

YeuEmMaiMai

When the cl-s came out in 2000, it had no trouble wiping the floor with it's BMW counterpart... and they just stood still never advance beyond that...

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

Agreed... that was more just to enhance the point. But a GTR owner would consider a Maxima (I actually know a guy who's wife has a Maxima as her daily and he has a GTR as his toy), any AMG owner will consider the non-AMG model, etc..

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

We have a MB E350, Porsche 911, Toyota FJ, and Jeep Wrangler 2-door. After the Acura we did a few Audi's which we loved, but now we're giving MB a shot... and so far it's been awesome.

Nexx

see you are exactly type of person im talking. you drove you an acura loved it but wanted something that acura was going to make. You wanted to upgrade in class and you got it but doesnt make Acura wrong for not going after that market and youre not in wrong for wanting more.

Nexx

once again, good ole day syndrome. even car and driver agrees with me.

Acura 3.2 CL Type-S vs.BMW 330Ci - Comparison Tests

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

Acura is Honda's luxury division. Same way Lexus is Toyota's, Infiniti is Nissan's, etc. They should be competing. Acura should have been on our cross-shopping list when we purchased the MB... but it wasn't b/c they do not make anything even remotely appealing. We looked at the Infiniti and looked very hard at the GS before going German. Acura wasn't even a blip on the radar as the TL was ugly and IMO the RL has regressed over the last few years. Acura went from a leader in several classes to a follower and they only have themselves to blame...

I still have a soft spot for Acura and I'd love to have an NSX and an upper class, sexy sedan from Acura in the garage. Let Honda be your safe line with the V6 and FWD and go upscale (or at least a little more aggressive) with Acura so it can compete with MB, Audi, Lexus, etc. But alas, I lost hope years ago...

Sarlacc

Thats not good ol day syndrome...he just doesn't know what he is talking about.

Sarlacc

The problem is Acura ISNT making competing models.

Honda/Acuras design philosophy used to be to grow their brand/cars with their customers as their customers get older and become more successful, etc. Now, while its nice in theory of course it couldn't stand the test of time without rebooting every 15-20 years.

But WHY isn't Acura making a true competitor for the 5 series, A6, E class? WHY not the 7, A8, S?

Hyundai and Kia sure seem to think its OK to go after higher tier marques...and Acura, who designed as an entry level way to get into luxury...stayed that way, where Lexus grew, adapted, and changed.

Hell, a Dodge Charger...even a V6 model, loaded has more tech than an Acura, more road presence, just as much luxury, and comes in at less cost than an Acura.

YeuEmMaiMai

I said 2000 not 2002....
Acura 3.2CL Type S - Short Take Road Test - Car Reviews - Car and Driver

YeuEmMaiMai

Is your life so crappy that you have nothing better to do than to follow me around like a lost puppy?

I feel pity for you, I really do...

Sarlacc

Yup, my participation in thread is predicated upon nothing more than you having made 1 stupid post here.

PS: There was no CL or CL-S in 2000, Genius. And clearly you can't read, as that review says it can claim it runs with the 330...not wipe anything with it.

Thanks for playing moron.

TacoBello

And I quote:

"Talk about an insane situation. Normally in comparison tests, our ace team of power pundits quickly culls the wheat from the chaff, leaving a relatively limited candidacy for the overall victory. Potential winners often include an Acura or a BMW-presuming they are included in the starting lineup. But what happens if these two champions go head-to-head, with no other contenders, leaving our aforementioned pettifoggers to lay down a simple verdict? Win or lose. A thumbs up or down for a pair of brands that have dominated our 10Best balloting like no others except Acura's parent, Honda.

Be reminded that since 1990 the Acuras and the BMWs have been 1000-pound gorillas in 10Best. BMWs of various iterations have won 18 times over that time span, and Acura has been victorious six times (although if parent Honda is included, the total rises to an impressive 28). Suffice it to say that the products from Munich and Hamamatsu/Marysville, Ohio, rank among our all-time favorites. And based on their booming sales, U.S. consumers concur.

The original plans for this test involved Volvo and Saab, both of which offered entries in this class of mid-priced, four-place, manual-gearbox sporty two-doors. Then Volvo announced that its front-drive C70 hardtop was headed for the big scrap yard in the sky, and Saab followed shortly thereafter, passing the word that its aging 9-3 Viggen would also disappear from showrooms. That left us with a pair of entries: the BMW 330Ci, which is a well-known favorite among this staff, having won 10Best honors for the past two years; and a major challenger from Acura, the 3.2CL Type-S, with a new, very slick six-speed tranny.

Although the two rivals appear similar in size, weight, and potential performance, one major discrepancy leapt off the specification sheets: The price on the dreaded Monroney sticker for the Bimmer was $7448 more than for the Acura ($33,180 versus $40,628). If we determined that the BMW was the more appealing of the two, how would we transmit this opinion without being accused of shameless shilling and toadyism on behalf of the Bavarian Motor Works?

The seven-large number loomed ominously as our small team loaded up and headed south toward our favored stomping grounds in rural Ohio. The mission was to determine if a master of technology and legendary performance (Acura/Honda) could knock off the icon of crazed, unfettered enthusiast motoring (you know who). After three days of lashing these worthies through the hills and hummocks of the Buckeye State, we faced the same dilemma as when we started: how to pick a winner. As the following will reveal, both machines are massively appealing, and both possess excellent performance, nimble handling, superb quality, and enough visceral mojo to raise the pulses of even the wild and crazy guys at Consumer Reports."

So they were praising Acura as being a direct competitor for BMW back in the day. You think that still holds true today? Give me a minute while I try to stop laughing.

Did you also see the part I bolded that said Acura was one of their all time favourites, along with BMW? That's some big shoes to fill. Still think that's the case today? Again, give me a minute while I try to stop laughing.

I didn't read the entire thing, but if the BMW was better by the end, let's tally that up to the fact it costs $7500 more to begin with. That's not really an apples-to-apples comparison, and the writer even states that himself. And again, no one is arguing that Acura is a superior brand to ______, but rather, that it used to be pretty awesome, making pretty awesome cars and no longer does.

All you did was prove that acura used to have some heart and soul and made bad ass cars. Thanks, you really helped prove everyone's point here.

Nexx

+1

Here are the results from that article he linked for the CL C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 6.8 sec
Standing 1/4-mile: 15.2 sec @ 93 mph
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.82 g

Here are the results from the 2000 C/D 330i
Zero to 60 mph: 6.1
Standing 1/4-mile: 14.8 sec @ 95 mph
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.83 g

sure does look like the legendary type-s cl wipes the floor with them.

Nexx

lol comparing which cars?!?!?! theyre comparing the cl types vs their entry level sedans!!!! come on dont tell you dont get that. can a tlx compete right now with 328 or 528, oh hell yeah!! can it compete with a m3 or m5!??! noooooo. acura just doesnt make nor has it ever made or will ever make anything like an m5 or m3... just wont happen brother. but comparing comparable cars yes acura can and has competed. our line up doesnt allow for competition with upper end of the luxury class. they dont need nor want to at the moment. once you get past that you youll understand.

TacoBello

And I quote:

"The test track revealed numbers that can only be related to a simple lack of rubber. The Acura's 215/50VR-17 Michelin Pilots are substantially skinnier than the Bimmer's Continentals (225/ 45ZR-17 in front and 245/40ZR-17 rear)."

"So we declare another victory, albeit a razor-thin one, for BMW. You may recall that we similarly honored its four-door brother in our February "36 on the Floor" comparo. But the gap steadily narrows, and it may be only a matter of time before the king is dethroned. When and if that happens, you'll be the first to know."

That's pretty damn impressive... But rather than continuing on an upward trend, Acura just became stagnant.