Edmunds: What's Wrong At Honda? Maybe Everything
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Edmunds: What's Wrong At Honda? Maybe Everything
What's Wrong At Honda? Maybe Everything
May 26, 2010
It's unusual for Honda Motor Co. Ltd. to deviate from its rigid model-replacement schedule, particularly for its bread-and-butter volume models such as the Civic. But that's just what the company is doing with the planned Civic replacement, pushing back the car's introduction from this fall until sometime next year.
The next-generation Civic apparently was not on competitive target - and Honda sent it back to the garage for tinkering. Although some analysts and industry insiders think Honda's choice to rejigger the Civic is a positive signal, the fact the Civic has to go back to the drawing board at such a late stage speaks plenty about how far Honda has drifted from its once-indomitable methods.
Honda, which always used to be so good at having its finger on the pulse of the buying public, seemingly has exhausted its famed product-development mojo. Yes, the cars - including the now almost 5-year-old Civic - still sell. The company reversed losses from the global industry downturn and for the fiscal year that ended in March recorded a $2.9-billion profit, a 96-percent surge. Honda maintains a top-drawer quality reputation.
Yet analysts, industry watchers and even Honda loyalists continue to murmur the company is losing its legendary edge for forward-looking engineering and an uncanny ability to apply that engineering in a way that delights customers.
John Wolkonowicz, manager of special projects for the IHS Global Insight North American auto forecasting group, said the reputation Honda earned in the 1980s and 1990s has allowed the company to hover above recent reality in the eyes of the car-buying public.
"The Honda name is still the gold standard in the industry," Wolkonowicz told AutoObserver. "But the fact is, they really seem to have lost it."
Edmunds.com analyst Ivan Dury says Honda so far has averted a precipitous sales slide. Still, consumer shopping consideration for Honda has been down in the first quarter this year at a time when one would expect it to be up in light of rival Toyota's troubles. "Honda's situation has the ingredients for a potentially tragic sales slide. If Honda keeps piling on incentives and sales remain flat or slip, we'll have another story on our hands."
Civic Delay: Hitting Corporate Reset Button
The company delayed the Civic because whatever it had planned for the past four years now isn't right. Understanding of the company's off-message product-development apparently has reached the top chair.
President Takanobu Ito seemed to confirm at last month's Beijing auto show that he's aware Honda has lost a step or three, suggesting the company's engineering and marketing may have become "complacent," and adding his displeasure over the company's loss of U.S. market share in the first quarter this year.
The Civic engineering team may have been scared straight by a rash of new-model miscues that have left its development acumen in question. For one, it had planned the now-delayed Civic to be larger, but many critics contend that's one of Honda's prime problems: the company has been subsituting size for innovation - the latest-generation Accord being the chief example.
More directly, another engorged Civic probably wouldn't compare favorably with the 40 miles-per-gallon highway fuel-economy numbers of new models entering the market, including Ford Motor Co.'s 2011 Fiesta and General Motors Co.'s 2011 Chevrolet Cruze. The best a conventionally powered current-generation Civic can manage is 36 mpg on the highway (the slow-selling Civic Hybrid whirrs out 45-mpg highway rating).
But the reasons Honda delayed the Civic run deeper than just proportions or fuel economy.
"The story here is the new products are not up to par," notes Edmunds.com's Drury. "The redesign of the Civic - one of Honda's three core products along with the Accord and CR-V -- could spell disaster if they get it wrong."
Drury notes Honda's trio of three core models make up more than two-thirds of the brand's sales volume.
"I think they looked at the competition the next-generation Civic will face and realized they weren't top of the heap on several fronts," said Wolkonowicz. He thinks almost all of Honda's recently launched models - including those of its Acura premium-car division - have not been up to the standards of the past, by either engineering or styling measures.
Nonetheless, the Civic delay represents "very positive news for Honda," Wolkonowicz said, adding that the company stopping the Civic program in its tracks seems to be a signal Honda is acknowledging its corporate drift.
"This is the most encouraging news of all," he continued, saying the delay of the Civic is an all-too-rare admission from Honda that the next Civic "isn't perfect, like they (perceive) everything they've done before. I don't think they would have done this five years ago."
But, he cautioned of the Civic delay: "I hope it's a more effective use of a year than Toyota got with the Corolla," when it delayed the U.S. launch of the current-generation Corolla from 2007 until 2008. Toyota said the delay was due to scarce engineering resources and to insure quality, but speculation proposed the launch was postponed to tweak bland styling and other competitive attributes.
Backsliding While Competition Is Gaining
Honda's top-of-the-heap standing for compact cars and midsize family sedans has been assailed on several fronts, most notably from the surging Hyundai/Kia conglomerate - but also from a revitalized Ford and General Motors Co.
But Honda's worst enemy recently seems to have been itself.
Wolkonowicz and other industry analysts point to many of the vehicles Honda and Acura currently have on the road as evidence of the company's foundering ways. Wolkonowicz said Honda's product-development backsliding has led to a "string of losers" after Honda spent years developing what many believed were cars with the best engineering-per-dollar value in the entire industry.
Another analyst said many recently launched Hondas are "sloppily designed, not very good to drive and even worse to look at."
All of those shots could apply to the Insight hybrid-electric vehicle, a car designed to showcase Honda's technical ability - and prospectively go head-to-head with Toyota's dominating Prius hybrid. But the company's still licking its wounds from the dismal response to the year-old Insight, which came to market with dumpy styling, unexceptional fuel economy and a thorough cheapness in appointments and driving feel.
Customers seem to agree: the Insight found just 6,853 buyers in the first four months of this year, a sales pace that is a fraction of what Honda projected. "It's really not a very good car," IHS Global Insight's Wolkonowicz declared.
There is little reason to believe the Honda CR-Z hybrid coupe derived from the Insight, going on sale in the U.S. this fall, will be any better; European enthusiast-magazine reviews have been politely noncommittal but cannot completely avoid giving the impression the CR-Z, if at least more engagingly styled than the Insight, also is a dud to drive.
Edmunds.com's Inside Line drove a Japan-specification CR-Z earlier this year and found it engaging at some level but concluded the car utlimately is not the warm-performance coupe Honda suggested it would be - nor does it live up to the role of sharp-handling CRX successor enthusiasts had projected for it.
Acura Struggles
The waning performance of the Acura upscale division is the topic of almost constant industry speculation, as Acura seems to further alienate its devoted buyers and produce few new ones, searching for a positioning strategy for its front-wheel-drive based luxury cars and crossovers. The brand abandoned its popular (and volume-selling) coupe, its flagship sells in the low hundreds of units monthly and critics insist each new generation of Acura is inferior to the model it replaces.
Edmunds.com's Drury points out that Acura is in the same situation as Honda, relying largely on a few vehicles for the bulk of its volume. The MDX, TL and TSX account for 87 percent of Acura sales. Sales of its other models - RL, ZDX and RDX - are "lukewarm."
Styling Miscues
Honda also has pulled the trigger on a string of stylistic dogs. The original Pilot crossover was bland but fit with the times, but the second-generation Pilot, launched in 2008, looked tired and passe before the first one was sold.
AutoObserver's comment at the time gives perspective to Honda's decision to delay the new Civic: "Launching the new Pilot exposes one of the Japan Inc.'s only flaws: reluctance to backtrack once a course has been set. Maybe after gauging the early reaction, if somebody with power had been able to say, 'This stinks, and we need to try again -- even if it means delaying our precious launch timetable,' the Pilot might have been redeemed."
The styling of the Accord Crosstour has endured near-universal disdain, the aging Ridgeline and Element have never been considered anything other than ugly ducklings and just about every vehicle in Acura's lineup is fanatically unattractive.
It's The Engineering, Stupid
But styling is subjective - and in the case of many esteemed brands, vehicles sell well despite weak or even off-putting styling.
Honda's real problem seems to come from the last place anyone - including those within the company - would expect: unconfident engineering.
For some time, Honda hasn't delivered much of the kind of innovation that once was baked into every new generation of vehicle it launched. Even the hardest of hardcore Honda fanboys admit it: from decisions like discarding double-wishbone front suspension for the Civic to wedging a V6 under the hood of the already too-fat new Acura TSX, Honda's answers of late seem to be little more than me-too solutions.
Honda was the first automaker to introduce a hybrid-electric electric vehicle in the U.S. - but quickly and gave away its leadership to Toyota. How? By sticking with the "mild" hybrid strategy of its Integrated Motor Assist technology, effectively backing the wrong engineering horse. Honda gambled the less-complex and less-expensive mild-hybrid approach - inserted into existing models - was the way to go with hybrids. With the Prius and its more-efficient full-hybrid engineering and a dedicated hybrid styling, Toyota blew past Honda and has never looked back.
And what of Honda's unparalleled reputation for engine advances? The company has assiduously avoided the direct-injection fueling that's fast becoming a standard for other makers. Honda backed away from a plan to make diesel engines one of Acura's technical calling cards.
While rival automakers are turning to high technology to generate more power from smaller engines - once a Honda forte - Honda's march has been to simply make its engines larger (insiders already are saying one change to come from the Civic's delay will be the move to a high-tech "downsized" engine). Other makers have bypassed Honda even in its area of perpetual engine leadership: advanced valvetrain designs.
Honda had long been able to claim being the U.S. market's fuel-economy leader. Hyundai stole away that badge last year.
The same week it acknowledged the plan to re-engineer the Civic, Honda also confirmed a second delay in the production timeline for its high-profile HondaJet corporate jet. HondaJet production now is scheduled for mid 2012, two years later than originally promised.
"It's not going to be so easy for Honda anymore," to maintain its engineering reputation, Wolkonowicz said. "Honda had a kind of superiority complex for many years. It became part of the internal culture. They need to do some soul-searching." - Bill Visnic, Senior Editor
1 - The current Honda Civic will stick around for awhile.
2 - The Honda Insight hasn't made a dent in Toyota Prius sales. (photo by Edmunds.com)
3 - The Honda CR-Z hybrid is based on the Civic.
It's unusual for Honda Motor Co. Ltd. to deviate from its rigid model-replacement schedule, particularly for its bread-and-butter volume models such as the Civic. But that's just what the company is doing with the planned Civic replacement, pushing back the car's introduction from this fall until sometime next year.
The next-generation Civic apparently was not on competitive target - and Honda sent it back to the garage for tinkering. Although some analysts and industry insiders think Honda's choice to rejigger the Civic is a positive signal, the fact the Civic has to go back to the drawing board at such a late stage speaks plenty about how far Honda has drifted from its once-indomitable methods.
Honda, which always used to be so good at having its finger on the pulse of the buying public, seemingly has exhausted its famed product-development mojo. Yes, the cars - including the now almost 5-year-old Civic - still sell. The company reversed losses from the global industry downturn and for the fiscal year that ended in March recorded a $2.9-billion profit, a 96-percent surge. Honda maintains a top-drawer quality reputation.
Yet analysts, industry watchers and even Honda loyalists continue to murmur the company is losing its legendary edge for forward-looking engineering and an uncanny ability to apply that engineering in a way that delights customers.
John Wolkonowicz, manager of special projects for the IHS Global Insight North American auto forecasting group, said the reputation Honda earned in the 1980s and 1990s has allowed the company to hover above recent reality in the eyes of the car-buying public.
"The Honda name is still the gold standard in the industry," Wolkonowicz told AutoObserver. "But the fact is, they really seem to have lost it."
Edmunds.com analyst Ivan Dury says Honda so far has averted a precipitous sales slide. Still, consumer shopping consideration for Honda has been down in the first quarter this year at a time when one would expect it to be up in light of rival Toyota's troubles. "Honda's situation has the ingredients for a potentially tragic sales slide. If Honda keeps piling on incentives and sales remain flat or slip, we'll have another story on our hands."
Civic Delay: Hitting Corporate Reset Button
The company delayed the Civic because whatever it had planned for the past four years now isn't right. Understanding of the company's off-message product-development apparently has reached the top chair.
President Takanobu Ito seemed to confirm at last month's Beijing auto show that he's aware Honda has lost a step or three, suggesting the company's engineering and marketing may have become "complacent," and adding his displeasure over the company's loss of U.S. market share in the first quarter this year.
The Civic engineering team may have been scared straight by a rash of new-model miscues that have left its development acumen in question. For one, it had planned the now-delayed Civic to be larger, but many critics contend that's one of Honda's prime problems: the company has been subsituting size for innovation - the latest-generation Accord being the chief example.
More directly, another engorged Civic probably wouldn't compare favorably with the 40 miles-per-gallon highway fuel-economy numbers of new models entering the market, including Ford Motor Co.'s 2011 Fiesta and General Motors Co.'s 2011 Chevrolet Cruze. The best a conventionally powered current-generation Civic can manage is 36 mpg on the highway (the slow-selling Civic Hybrid whirrs out 45-mpg highway rating).
But the reasons Honda delayed the Civic run deeper than just proportions or fuel economy.
"The story here is the new products are not up to par," notes Edmunds.com's Drury. "The redesign of the Civic - one of Honda's three core products along with the Accord and CR-V -- could spell disaster if they get it wrong."
Drury notes Honda's trio of three core models make up more than two-thirds of the brand's sales volume.
"I think they looked at the competition the next-generation Civic will face and realized they weren't top of the heap on several fronts," said Wolkonowicz. He thinks almost all of Honda's recently launched models - including those of its Acura premium-car division - have not been up to the standards of the past, by either engineering or styling measures.
Nonetheless, the Civic delay represents "very positive news for Honda," Wolkonowicz said, adding that the company stopping the Civic program in its tracks seems to be a signal Honda is acknowledging its corporate drift.
"This is the most encouraging news of all," he continued, saying the delay of the Civic is an all-too-rare admission from Honda that the next Civic "isn't perfect, like they (perceive) everything they've done before. I don't think they would have done this five years ago."
But, he cautioned of the Civic delay: "I hope it's a more effective use of a year than Toyota got with the Corolla," when it delayed the U.S. launch of the current-generation Corolla from 2007 until 2008. Toyota said the delay was due to scarce engineering resources and to insure quality, but speculation proposed the launch was postponed to tweak bland styling and other competitive attributes.
Backsliding While Competition Is Gaining
Honda's top-of-the-heap standing for compact cars and midsize family sedans has been assailed on several fronts, most notably from the surging Hyundai/Kia conglomerate - but also from a revitalized Ford and General Motors Co.
But Honda's worst enemy recently seems to have been itself.
Wolkonowicz and other industry analysts point to many of the vehicles Honda and Acura currently have on the road as evidence of the company's foundering ways. Wolkonowicz said Honda's product-development backsliding has led to a "string of losers" after Honda spent years developing what many believed were cars with the best engineering-per-dollar value in the entire industry.
Another analyst said many recently launched Hondas are "sloppily designed, not very good to drive and even worse to look at."
All of those shots could apply to the Insight hybrid-electric vehicle, a car designed to showcase Honda's technical ability - and prospectively go head-to-head with Toyota's dominating Prius hybrid. But the company's still licking its wounds from the dismal response to the year-old Insight, which came to market with dumpy styling, unexceptional fuel economy and a thorough cheapness in appointments and driving feel.
Customers seem to agree: the Insight found just 6,853 buyers in the first four months of this year, a sales pace that is a fraction of what Honda projected. "It's really not a very good car," IHS Global Insight's Wolkonowicz declared.
Honda Insight vs. Toyota Prius
Source: Edmunds.com There is little reason to believe the Honda CR-Z hybrid coupe derived from the Insight, going on sale in the U.S. this fall, will be any better; European enthusiast-magazine reviews have been politely noncommittal but cannot completely avoid giving the impression the CR-Z, if at least more engagingly styled than the Insight, also is a dud to drive.
Edmunds.com's Inside Line drove a Japan-specification CR-Z earlier this year and found it engaging at some level but concluded the car utlimately is not the warm-performance coupe Honda suggested it would be - nor does it live up to the role of sharp-handling CRX successor enthusiasts had projected for it.
Acura Struggles
The waning performance of the Acura upscale division is the topic of almost constant industry speculation, as Acura seems to further alienate its devoted buyers and produce few new ones, searching for a positioning strategy for its front-wheel-drive based luxury cars and crossovers. The brand abandoned its popular (and volume-selling) coupe, its flagship sells in the low hundreds of units monthly and critics insist each new generation of Acura is inferior to the model it replaces.
Edmunds.com's Drury points out that Acura is in the same situation as Honda, relying largely on a few vehicles for the bulk of its volume. The MDX, TL and TSX account for 87 percent of Acura sales. Sales of its other models - RL, ZDX and RDX - are "lukewarm."
Styling Miscues
Honda also has pulled the trigger on a string of stylistic dogs. The original Pilot crossover was bland but fit with the times, but the second-generation Pilot, launched in 2008, looked tired and passe before the first one was sold.
AutoObserver's comment at the time gives perspective to Honda's decision to delay the new Civic: "Launching the new Pilot exposes one of the Japan Inc.'s only flaws: reluctance to backtrack once a course has been set. Maybe after gauging the early reaction, if somebody with power had been able to say, 'This stinks, and we need to try again -- even if it means delaying our precious launch timetable,' the Pilot might have been redeemed."
The styling of the Accord Crosstour has endured near-universal disdain, the aging Ridgeline and Element have never been considered anything other than ugly ducklings and just about every vehicle in Acura's lineup is fanatically unattractive.
Honda Accord Crosstour vs. Toyota Venza
Source: Edmunds.com It's The Engineering, Stupid
But styling is subjective - and in the case of many esteemed brands, vehicles sell well despite weak or even off-putting styling.
Honda's real problem seems to come from the last place anyone - including those within the company - would expect: unconfident engineering.
For some time, Honda hasn't delivered much of the kind of innovation that once was baked into every new generation of vehicle it launched. Even the hardest of hardcore Honda fanboys admit it: from decisions like discarding double-wishbone front suspension for the Civic to wedging a V6 under the hood of the already too-fat new Acura TSX, Honda's answers of late seem to be little more than me-too solutions.
Honda was the first automaker to introduce a hybrid-electric electric vehicle in the U.S. - but quickly and gave away its leadership to Toyota. How? By sticking with the "mild" hybrid strategy of its Integrated Motor Assist technology, effectively backing the wrong engineering horse. Honda gambled the less-complex and less-expensive mild-hybrid approach - inserted into existing models - was the way to go with hybrids. With the Prius and its more-efficient full-hybrid engineering and a dedicated hybrid styling, Toyota blew past Honda and has never looked back.
And what of Honda's unparalleled reputation for engine advances? The company has assiduously avoided the direct-injection fueling that's fast becoming a standard for other makers. Honda backed away from a plan to make diesel engines one of Acura's technical calling cards.
While rival automakers are turning to high technology to generate more power from smaller engines - once a Honda forte - Honda's march has been to simply make its engines larger (insiders already are saying one change to come from the Civic's delay will be the move to a high-tech "downsized" engine). Other makers have bypassed Honda even in its area of perpetual engine leadership: advanced valvetrain designs.
Honda had long been able to claim being the U.S. market's fuel-economy leader. Hyundai stole away that badge last year.
The same week it acknowledged the plan to re-engineer the Civic, Honda also confirmed a second delay in the production timeline for its high-profile HondaJet corporate jet. HondaJet production now is scheduled for mid 2012, two years later than originally promised.
"It's not going to be so easy for Honda anymore," to maintain its engineering reputation, Wolkonowicz said. "Honda had a kind of superiority complex for many years. It became part of the internal culture. They need to do some soul-searching." - Bill Visnic, Senior Editor
1 - The current Honda Civic will stick around for awhile.
2 - The Honda Insight hasn't made a dent in Toyota Prius sales. (photo by Edmunds.com)
3 - The Honda CR-Z hybrid is based on the Civic.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 36,545
Likes: 6,470
From: Kansas City, MO (Overland Park, KS)
If the Honda name is still the gold standard, according to this article, how low is the price of gold now?????
National Acura Meet-June 6th/Kansas City-10 DAYS AWAY!!!.
Click here for details and to sign up!
.
National Acura Meet-June 6th/Kansas City-10 DAYS AWAY!!!.
Click here for details and to sign up!
.
Last edited by Steven Bell; May 26, 2010 at 08:03 PM.
When it comes time to sell either one of our cars ('04 Accord or '03 Civic), I'm going to look into a slightly used 05-08 TL.
Honda will always be near the top of my list, but it's amazing what other manufacturers are creeping up the list that I never would have thought to consider even five years ago: Hyundai, Ford, Toyota.
Honda will always be near the top of my list, but it's amazing what other manufacturers are creeping up the list that I never would have thought to consider even five years ago: Hyundai, Ford, Toyota.
Yes you may because I will too. 
That can't be! We're just a bunch of enthusiasts. Why would anyone want to listen to us.
I'll forward that question to Hyundai because they've caught up very fast in the last couple years. 
That can't be! We're just a bunch of enthusiasts. Why would anyone want to listen to us.
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Senior Moderator
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 20,067
Likes: 4,699
From: Cleveland area, OH
OMG it's like they've been reading Acurazine!
and
Soichiro Honda
is rolling in his grave as he witnesses this travesty. This Honda/Acura fanboi is still in disbelief that he traded an Acura for a CADILLAC!?
This great engineering and ENGINE company can't get hybrids right? Can't make an efficient V8 for its luxury division? Somehow allows fugly designs that piss off their base?
Honda needs to hire Bob Lutz or his clone off the golf course. STAT. We need better designs like yesterday.
The good thing is that Honda's conservative nature has led to profits even during the downturn, so they must be doing SOMETHING right.
and Soichiro Honda
is rolling in his grave as he witnesses this travesty. This Honda/Acura fanboi is still in disbelief that he traded an Acura for a CADILLAC!?This great engineering and ENGINE company can't get hybrids right? Can't make an efficient V8 for its luxury division? Somehow allows fugly designs that piss off their base?
Honda needs to hire Bob Lutz or his clone off the golf course. STAT. We need better designs like yesterday.
The good thing is that Honda's conservative nature has led to profits even during the downturn, so they must be doing SOMETHING right.
Senior Moderator
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 47,710
Likes: 801
From: Toronto, Canada
Senior Moderator
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 20,067
Likes: 4,699
From: Cleveland area, OH
Interesting comment from the user comments below the article that adds some perspective:
Has Honda lost its way? Yes, very much so for the reasons delineated here.
However, Honda is not the only one. I would say that most every automaker is lost in the wilds. Toyota lost sight of its quality in pursuit of market share. GM went bankrupt. Chrysler's product plan remains a mystery. BMW is pursuing bloated "joy" instead of a peerless driving experience. Mini's next new model is...an obese crossover. Mercedes hasn't fully recovered from its debacle with Chrysler nor regained its former glory in quality or reliability. Porsche makes more money from SUVs and sedans than sports cars. Subarus were the anti-SUVs; now most are as obese as SUVs. VW remains a niche player here despite significant effort.
The few car makers that seem to "get it" are Ford and Hyundai. The rest seems to be relying on former glory or completely out-of-touch.
However, Honda is not the only one. I would say that most every automaker is lost in the wilds. Toyota lost sight of its quality in pursuit of market share. GM went bankrupt. Chrysler's product plan remains a mystery. BMW is pursuing bloated "joy" instead of a peerless driving experience. Mini's next new model is...an obese crossover. Mercedes hasn't fully recovered from its debacle with Chrysler nor regained its former glory in quality or reliability. Porsche makes more money from SUVs and sedans than sports cars. Subarus were the anti-SUVs; now most are as obese as SUVs. VW remains a niche player here despite significant effort.
The few car makers that seem to "get it" are Ford and Hyundai. The rest seems to be relying on former glory or completely out-of-touch.
_
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 19,356
Likes: 3,445
When it comes time to sell either one of our cars ('04 Accord or '03 Civic), I'm going to look into a slightly used 05-08 TL.
Honda will always be near the top of my list, but it's amazing what other manufacturers are creeping up the list that I never would have thought to consider even five years ago: Hyundai, Ford, Toyota.
Honda will always be near the top of my list, but it's amazing what other manufacturers are creeping up the list that I never would have thought to consider even five years ago: Hyundai, Ford, Toyota.
Nothing in Honda's/Acura's product line really interest me right now. If I had to buy a Honda/Acura, it'd be a used model (like the 3rd gen TL or the pre-face lift 2nd gen MDX).
If I had to go new, the Genesis coupe and VW GTI would be at the top of the list, along with a few others.
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 11,213
Likes: 174
From: Portland, Oregon
That article hit the nail on the head. I've driven the Insight and it is an absolute joke. The dash plastics are tinny, the doors sound hollow when you open and close them, and the carpet looks like it came out of the bargain bin in a small town fabrics store. Even the carpeting in the TSX is pretty thin and has barely any nap to it.
Personally, I think Hyundai is making some of the best cars out there today and seems to be one of the few manufacturers that isn't living in a 25 year old wet dream. Honda needs to get their shit together but as others have said, that's been known here for a loooooong time.
Personally, I think Hyundai is making some of the best cars out there today and seems to be one of the few manufacturers that isn't living in a 25 year old wet dream. Honda needs to get their shit together but as others have said, that's been known here for a loooooong time.
Corn-Fed Mule
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 224
Likes: 1
From: All Up In Dat AZZ...Beotch!
The only vehicle in the Acura/Honda lineup that even warrants a look from me is the ZDX, but it's toooo expensive...I could get an Infiniti FX50 with better performance, better technology, and equally polarizing styling for slightly more.
I don't know what's going on with Honda, but some heads need to roll, and I mean roll NOW. The CHIT that they've been allowing to be released for public consumption is absurd. There needs to be a clean sweep of designers and management and a DO OVER to get this company back to where it was.
Oh yeah, Honda....if Toyota is renowned for being experts in hybrids, be an expert with DIESELS (better than VW even)! Make it a multifuel diesel or something...and DON'T PISS AWAY YOUR DOMINANCE OF THAT MARKET...
I don't know what's going on with Honda, but some heads need to roll, and I mean roll NOW. The CHIT that they've been allowing to be released for public consumption is absurd. There needs to be a clean sweep of designers and management and a DO OVER to get this company back to where it was.
Oh yeah, Honda....if Toyota is renowned for being experts in hybrids, be an expert with DIESELS (better than VW even)! Make it a multifuel diesel or something...and DON'T PISS AWAY YOUR DOMINANCE OF THAT MARKET...
Last edited by jim165; May 27, 2010 at 08:06 AM. Reason: forgot to add a point..
Pro
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 616
Likes: 0
I have seen only one crosstour outside of a dealership in the couple months since it has been release. I think this downturn might have started when they removed the RSX from the lineup and replaced it with an RDX. Not everyone that can afford a new car wants a crossover. Now that I am about to start carreer there is no new Honda or Acura I would consider. The new cars that they produce are really boring and ugly. Bmw and Audi have added crossovers like the q5 and x3 because they offer many different types but, with Acura and Honda there is a lot of redundancy with all of there cars. Why is there not a tsx with v6tt or v8 and a body kit? Audi, Bmw and Toyota make cars like that!
My bolonga has a 1st name
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,209
Likes: 1
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL
I'm glad someone in the automotive media is finally saying what I know I have and many of us here on this forum have been saying forever!
EVERY SINGLE point in that article is SPOT ON.
I seriously hope that honda snapps the hell outta it and makes a comeback soon...
Its sad that with every new model they introduce its more depressing than the last.
Another article from Autoblog saying roughly the same things:
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/05/26/d...lost-the-plot/
Honda Vice President John Mendel recently admitted to AutoWeek that the next-generation Civic will be delayed from the Fall of 2010 to sometime in 2011. Mendel said in the interview that the Civic was delayed because of tightening emissions standards and he also noted that changing market conditions were partly to blame. AW also notes that the Civic's design was changed along the way, as Honda's second biggest selling model was originally scheduled to be larger for 2011. Happens all the time, right? Well, not to Honda it doesn't.
Michelle Krebs over at Edmunds Auto Observer has taken a deep-dive look at the broader implications of the Civic redesign, and came up with some very interesting points. For starters, Krebs speculates that the next Civic was delayed in part because it wasn't competitive compared to the new, vastly improved competition from companies like Hyundai, General Motors and Ford. While some analysts feel that the Honda redesign shows that the Japanese automaker is willing to swallow some humble pie and get things right, Krebs counters that going back to the drawing board shows that Honda has lost its touch with the car-buying public. Further support for her theory centers around the lackluster greeting for the Insight by both consumers and pundits, Acura's polarizing styling language and the love/hate Accord Crosstour and its embarassing social media launch efforts. Analyst John Wolkonowicz of Global Insight appears to agree with Krebs, saying that Honda is living off of its reputation from the 1980s and 1990s.
Where do we stand on the Honda Civic design pushback? We're thinking that as long as the Civic continues to sell in big numbers with relatively small incentives, Honda is smart to head back to the drawing board, especially as it is still selling strongly five years into its lifecycle. However, we've been worried that Honda has been losing its engineering-led focus for a while now, so we'll be looking to the next-gen Civic for some level of redemption.
Be sure to take our poll and check out our high-res gallery of Honda Civic history before heading over to the Auto Observer for some very interesting analysis.
Michelle Krebs over at Edmunds Auto Observer has taken a deep-dive look at the broader implications of the Civic redesign, and came up with some very interesting points. For starters, Krebs speculates that the next Civic was delayed in part because it wasn't competitive compared to the new, vastly improved competition from companies like Hyundai, General Motors and Ford. While some analysts feel that the Honda redesign shows that the Japanese automaker is willing to swallow some humble pie and get things right, Krebs counters that going back to the drawing board shows that Honda has lost its touch with the car-buying public. Further support for her theory centers around the lackluster greeting for the Insight by both consumers and pundits, Acura's polarizing styling language and the love/hate Accord Crosstour and its embarassing social media launch efforts. Analyst John Wolkonowicz of Global Insight appears to agree with Krebs, saying that Honda is living off of its reputation from the 1980s and 1990s.
Where do we stand on the Honda Civic design pushback? We're thinking that as long as the Civic continues to sell in big numbers with relatively small incentives, Honda is smart to head back to the drawing board, especially as it is still selling strongly five years into its lifecycle. However, we've been worried that Honda has been losing its engineering-led focus for a while now, so we'll be looking to the next-gen Civic for some level of redemption.
Be sure to take our poll and check out our high-res gallery of Honda Civic history before heading over to the Auto Observer for some very interesting analysis.
The Box
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,680
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From: Milwaukee
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,181
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From: DFW
I think this is partly just regression to the mean and setting an unrealistic standard for the long term. The 2 and 2 (new model every four with a refresh in between) is unsustainable over the long term on every model. None of the other manufacturers can do it either. The BMW X3 was old as dirt. The old Ford Focus in the US was off the charts old. Honda deviates from it on one model and they get taken to task for it. I think this is mostly a case of Honda setting extremely high expectations and failing to meet them.
That being said, the lack of engine development is disappointing. I though the RDX engine was going to be the first in a line of new turbo motors that would find their way into the TSX, etc. In a few months the fifth model year of the RDX will be out and most likely with exactly the same motor. It is underrated (probably more like 265 hp when you compare the performance to other crossovers), but it obviously has some bigtime overhead in terms of fueling, etc. No reason there could not be a direct injected version that gets better mileage and makes 300+ hp by now. The 3.7 V6 is no where near as smooth as previous Honda V6's, and is nothing special compared to the competition. It took until 2010, 2010!, for Honda to get a six speed automatic. Honda used to be THE leader in mainstream engine technology. I'm not just talking NSX and Integra Type-R. I mean look at the 1999 3.2TL. A 225 hp V6 in 1999 was crazy! The 328i was 193 hp. The A4 V6 made 190 hp. Other than the uber cars like Porsche and Ferrari, Honda absolutely made the finest engines in the world. I want my 450 hp direct injected variable inlet twin turbo 3.0L Honda V6!
That being said, the lack of engine development is disappointing. I though the RDX engine was going to be the first in a line of new turbo motors that would find their way into the TSX, etc. In a few months the fifth model year of the RDX will be out and most likely with exactly the same motor. It is underrated (probably more like 265 hp when you compare the performance to other crossovers), but it obviously has some bigtime overhead in terms of fueling, etc. No reason there could not be a direct injected version that gets better mileage and makes 300+ hp by now. The 3.7 V6 is no where near as smooth as previous Honda V6's, and is nothing special compared to the competition. It took until 2010, 2010!, for Honda to get a six speed automatic. Honda used to be THE leader in mainstream engine technology. I'm not just talking NSX and Integra Type-R. I mean look at the 1999 3.2TL. A 225 hp V6 in 1999 was crazy! The 328i was 193 hp. The A4 V6 made 190 hp. Other than the uber cars like Porsche and Ferrari, Honda absolutely made the finest engines in the world. I want my 450 hp direct injected variable inlet twin turbo 3.0L Honda V6!
My bolonga has a 1st name
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,209
Likes: 1
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL
I think this is partly just regression to the mean and setting an unrealistic standard for the long term. The 2 and 2 (new model every four with a refresh in between) is unsustainable over the long term on every model. None of the other manufacturers can do it either. The BMW X3 was old as dirt. The old Ford Focus in the US was off the charts old. Honda deviates from it on one model and they get taken to task for it. I think this is mostly a case of Honda setting extremely high expectations and failing to meet them.
That being said, the lack of engine development is disappointing. I though the RDX engine was going to be the first in a line of new turbo motors that would find their way into the TSX, etc. In a few months the fifth model year of the RDX will be out and most likely with exactly the same motor. It is underrated (probably more like 265 hp when you compare the performance to other crossovers), but it obviously has some bigtime overhead in terms of fueling, etc. No reason there could not be a direct injected version that gets better mileage and makes 300+ hp by now. The 3.7 V6 is no where near as smooth as previous Honda V6's, and is nothing special compared to the competition. It took until 2010, 2010!, for Honda to get a six speed automatic. Honda used to be THE leader in mainstream engine technology. I'm not just talking NSX and Integra Type-R. I mean look at the 1999 3.2TL. A 225 hp V6 in 1999 was crazy! The 328i was 193 hp. The A4 V6 made 190 hp. Other than the uber cars like Porsche and Ferrari, Honda absolutely made the finest engines in the world. I want my 450 hp direct injected variable inlet twin turbo 3.0L Honda V6!
That being said, the lack of engine development is disappointing. I though the RDX engine was going to be the first in a line of new turbo motors that would find their way into the TSX, etc. In a few months the fifth model year of the RDX will be out and most likely with exactly the same motor. It is underrated (probably more like 265 hp when you compare the performance to other crossovers), but it obviously has some bigtime overhead in terms of fueling, etc. No reason there could not be a direct injected version that gets better mileage and makes 300+ hp by now. The 3.7 V6 is no where near as smooth as previous Honda V6's, and is nothing special compared to the competition. It took until 2010, 2010!, for Honda to get a six speed automatic. Honda used to be THE leader in mainstream engine technology. I'm not just talking NSX and Integra Type-R. I mean look at the 1999 3.2TL. A 225 hp V6 in 1999 was crazy! The 328i was 193 hp. The A4 V6 made 190 hp. Other than the uber cars like Porsche and Ferrari, Honda absolutely made the finest engines in the world. I want my 450 hp direct injected variable inlet twin turbo 3.0L Honda V6!
if they were gonna do it on one model why do it on the bread and butter civic?
they deviated beacuse they were building a car with craptastic specs that couldn't compete with the rest of the segement... thats why they went back to the drawing board. Not beacuse they ran out of money or were too busy working on more important projects.
They thought they could get away with another polished turd and sell it based on the name 'honda' and people's warm feelings of the brand from the 80's and the 90's.
They are seeing Ford, Chevy, and perhaps most significantly Hyundai, take a HUGE bite of their bread and butter segments and decided that they were about to introduce something no one would want.
I think its a positive thing that they went back to the drawing board beacuse they certainly didn't listen to the people on the ZDX, Crosstour, and the CR-Z.
Nevertheless it just goes to show what honda's thinking was... build some shit and people will buy it if we throw an H on it.
I'm glad they're waking up a bit but I'm not singing their good graces until they come out with somehting thats class leading in performance while being economical, and awesome looking for an entry level vehicle... which is what Honda USED to be good at.
You're absolutely right on thier crappy engine development, powertrain development etc... etc.... There is NO reason the ZDX should EVER have been made before they released an actual Coupe...
Theres NO reason the CrossTour should have been made, the CRZ is a waste for the american market with its rediculious numbers, its not amazing with fuel economy nor does it have decent power, and given its hybrid drivetrain doesn't even have potential on the tuner market...
I just want to take whoever is running American Honda and Acura and shake em'.
Last edited by 97AcuraCL; May 27, 2010 at 11:26 AM.
My bolonga has a 1st name
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,209
Likes: 1
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL
OMG it's like they've been reading Acurazine!
and
Soichiro Honda is rolling in his grave as he witnesses this travesty. This Honda/Acura fanboi is still in disbelief that he traded an Acura for a CADILLAC!?
This great engineering and ENGINE company can't get hybrids right? Can't make an efficient V8 for its luxury division? Somehow allows fugly designs that piss off their base?
Honda needs to hire Bob Lutz or his clone off the golf course. STAT. We need better designs like yesterday.
The good thing is that Honda's conservative nature has led to profits even during the downturn, so they must be doing SOMETHING right.
and Soichiro Honda
is rolling in his grave as he witnesses this travesty. This Honda/Acura fanboi is still in disbelief that he traded an Acura for a CADILLAC!?This great engineering and ENGINE company can't get hybrids right? Can't make an efficient V8 for its luxury division? Somehow allows fugly designs that piss off their base?
Honda needs to hire Bob Lutz or his clone off the golf course. STAT. We need better designs like yesterday.
The good thing is that Honda's conservative nature has led to profits even during the downturn, so they must be doing SOMETHING right.
People relate fuel efficiency and reliability to honda... both of which in reality are qualities they're losing the race on vs other brands...
But people relate those things to Honda traditionally and THAT is what is kept them somewhat profitable.
That and Toyota's troubles...
Thats also not to say that Honda couldn't have had a few more fun models in thier line ups and couldn't have done better with better styling in acura lineups...
All of Honda's luck based on its reputation is starting to run out...
Just like you I'm amazed at myself to be looking at the new Mustangs... but what option has honda/acura given me?
I did the Accord coupe as an interim vehicle until they would make a proper coupe, and now they slapped me in the face by producing a ZDX and calling that abomination a 'coupe' -- with no G37, 335i, CTS Coupe, fighter even in the works!
Yes I know the Mustangs dont really compare to those above, but the sheer improvement in refinement, improvements in reliability, raw power, and yes even fuel efficiency make them hard to not at least consider!
My bolonga has a 1st name
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,209
Likes: 1
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL
There were supposed to be many fires lit under thier asses... each more disappointing than the last.
The civic Si was supposed to carry the entire legacy that the Prelude, and RSX/Integra left behind... and while its capable, its nothing to write home about.
SHAWD was supposed to be all of our answers to why we couldn't get something other than FWD in a luxury brand, and we all know how that worked out... the only car thats made use of it well is the new TL with 6spd... but then they screwed that over with horrendus styling and making it huge, almost bigger than the RL.
You would think, WOULD THINK that that technology would be AMAZING ina high performance coupe of some sort...
They threw it in the RL, then MDX, then RDX, then TL, then ZDX.... and yet... still not a single coupe to be found anywhere... and destroyed the great styling direction that they once had.
The TSX was supposed to finally get some balls with the V6 option, but they conveniently left out the 6spd, awd option, or at least an LSD.
The Tourer wagon is coming out... i'm positive it wont have SHAWD... no 6spd will likely be offered... and i'm not sure if the v6 will be an option or not yet but i woudlnt be surprised if it wasn't.
The Diesel was supposed to help... that was scrapped.
NSX near production... scrapped it too.
I just dont get it. who's making the decisions at acura???
And dont tell me that the new CAFE standards are preventing vehicles with decent power, because if 26mpg out of a 412hp heavy ass mustang is possible with upcoming cafe standards is possible, surely Honda can throw together a shortened wheel based TL, make it 2 door without a beak snout and a sleek body and call it a coupe despite CAFE
The civic Si was supposed to carry the entire legacy that the Prelude, and RSX/Integra left behind... and while its capable, its nothing to write home about.
SHAWD was supposed to be all of our answers to why we couldn't get something other than FWD in a luxury brand, and we all know how that worked out... the only car thats made use of it well is the new TL with 6spd... but then they screwed that over with horrendus styling and making it huge, almost bigger than the RL.
You would think, WOULD THINK that that technology would be AMAZING ina high performance coupe of some sort...
They threw it in the RL, then MDX, then RDX, then TL, then ZDX.... and yet... still not a single coupe to be found anywhere... and destroyed the great styling direction that they once had.
The TSX was supposed to finally get some balls with the V6 option, but they conveniently left out the 6spd, awd option, or at least an LSD.
The Tourer wagon is coming out... i'm positive it wont have SHAWD... no 6spd will likely be offered... and i'm not sure if the v6 will be an option or not yet but i woudlnt be surprised if it wasn't.
The Diesel was supposed to help... that was scrapped.
NSX near production... scrapped it too.
I just dont get it. who's making the decisions at acura???
And dont tell me that the new CAFE standards are preventing vehicles with decent power, because if 26mpg out of a 412hp heavy ass mustang is possible with upcoming cafe standards is possible, surely Honda can throw together a shortened wheel based TL, make it 2 door without a beak snout and a sleek body and call it a coupe despite CAFE
Last edited by 97AcuraCL; May 27, 2010 at 01:03 PM.
My bolonga has a 1st name
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,209
Likes: 1
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL
if you were to search my history i've ranted about this many times on this forum.
I'm just glad its finally getting some actual press... beause i've been saying this crap for years.
Its hard to be such a die hard fan boy of acura/honda when they seem to be abandoning everything you used to love about them for so long...
I'm as crazy about honda as rednecks are with fords and chevys...
but its hard to defend this kinda shit you know?
I'm glad they went back to the drawing board with the civic... just hope they actually make it count... beacuse personally i think everytime they've 'gone back to the drawing board' has been nothing but one failure after the next...
the last outta the box thinking they did that worked, while not my favorite model in their lineup by any means is the element... i mean say what you want about it but the thing did do its share of sales considering it was never meant to be a high volume seller.
look at the ridgeline, what in gods name possessed them to make a "truck" like that? i mean why bother doing something half assed? do it right or don't do it at all... which again is what it seems like they're doing with the civic here... time will only tell what comes of it.
The sizzle in the Steak
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 71,436
Likes: 1,877
From: Southern California
To all the Honda/Acura fan boys on this board that kept screaming for years that all of us that were saying Honda/Acura had lost its way were so negative.........yea. 
Senior Moderator
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 47,710
Likes: 801
From: Toronto, Canada
dom you may not remember my name cuz i'm not as much of a regular poster as I used to be when I had my TSX and my CL, but i remember you...
if you were to search my history i've ranted about this many times on this forum.
I'm just glad its finally getting some actual press... beause i've been saying this crap for years.
Its hard to be such a die hard fan boy of acura/honda when they seem to be abandoning everything you used to love about them for so long...
I'm as crazy about honda as rednecks are with fords and chevys...
but its hard to defend this kinda shit you know?
I'm glad they went back to the drawing board with the civic... just hope they actually make it count... beacuse personally i think everytime they've 'gone back to the drawing board' has been nothing but one failure after the next...
the last outta the box thinking they did that worked, while not my favorite model in their lineup by any means is the element... i mean say what you want about it but the thing did do its share of sales considering it was never meant to be a high volume seller.
look at the ridgeline, what in gods name possessed them to make a "truck" like that? i mean why bother doing something half assed? do it right or don't do it at all... which again is what it seems like they're doing with the civic here... time will only tell what comes of it.
if you were to search my history i've ranted about this many times on this forum.
I'm just glad its finally getting some actual press... beause i've been saying this crap for years.
Its hard to be such a die hard fan boy of acura/honda when they seem to be abandoning everything you used to love about them for so long...
I'm as crazy about honda as rednecks are with fords and chevys...
but its hard to defend this kinda shit you know?
I'm glad they went back to the drawing board with the civic... just hope they actually make it count... beacuse personally i think everytime they've 'gone back to the drawing board' has been nothing but one failure after the next...
the last outta the box thinking they did that worked, while not my favorite model in their lineup by any means is the element... i mean say what you want about it but the thing did do its share of sales considering it was never meant to be a high volume seller.
look at the ridgeline, what in gods name possessed them to make a "truck" like that? i mean why bother doing something half assed? do it right or don't do it at all... which again is what it seems like they're doing with the civic here... time will only tell what comes of it.
My bolonga has a 1st name
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,209
Likes: 1
From: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Honda, Acura, same difference, but don't forget me! 
-mod status. 