nist7

With recent purchase of a STS-V by a fellow member I thought it would be good to start a list of similar cars that have GREAT $/hp ratio AND/OR an interesting/rare/uncommon $/hp cars that is still within affordable range.

I began this list a while ago when I was dreaming of a list of affordable, sporty cars for future ownership consideration. Please contribute with other options as well.

This list will be generally cars around 30k or less with the entry cost. (can vary wildly of course depending on rarity and condition of the specific car). And of course maintenance/repair can be quite high depending on model/brand (ie the AMG, etc.)

My list so far:

Sedans:
Cadillac STS-V
Cadilalc CTS-V1
BMW E55 / E63 AMG
BMW M5 (E39)
Audi S4 / RS4
Pontiac G8 GXP
Chrysler 300C SRT-8 (Charger SRT-8)
Mercury Marauder
Ford Taurus SHO
Chevrolet Impala SS
Jaguar XJR (Vanden Plas Supercharged)

Coupe/Wagons:
BMW Clown Shoe
Volvo V70 R
Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4
Pontiac Firebird Trans Am WS6 (LS1)
Pontiac GTO (04-06)
BMW 8 series
Saab 9-3 Turbo X SportCombi
Jaguar XJS V12

Truck/SUV
GMC Syclone / Typhoon
Dodge Ram SRT-10
Chevrolet Trailblazer SS
Grand Cherokee SRT-8

wackjum

Mercedes SL55 AMG. My ownership experience is being documented in this thread. If you can do the work yourself, it hasn't been too bad yet.

Rick_TL-S

Under $30,000? C5 Z06 easily for a coupe. 405Bhp & $30,000 can get you one in great condition with under 30-40,000 miles easily.

As for the E39 M5 on your list, would not touch one under $30,000. Just taking a peak at the market right now, any example under $30,000 is on the high end of the mileage spectrum for those cars. You'll have to spend around $40,000 just to get one with 50,000 miles on average. German power houses are generally at their best when you swallow the pill to pay a little more for one. As Wackjum stated, you could offset it this if you know what you're working on. The Vanos on BMWs doesn't come across as something for chumps, though.

nist7

Ah very good pick! Great car you have there and definitely worthy of addition to the list.

Most definitely a C5 Z06 is a great bargain. I think i may have unconsciously left it out of the list since everyone and their cousin has a Corvette these days. Still a great $$/hp ratio car though.

Dang did not know the E39 M5 has risen in value that much?! Haven't looked at that car's market for a while. Though indeed any of the cars can command quite a premium depending on car-specific mileage/condition. The E60 535i is another great value for those who are looking for an alternative to the V10 M5 and can be modded to be in respectable performance range of the E60 M5. But yes as with German cars you gotta do your homework before jumping in due to their complex/high maintenance/repair situation.

Also just noticed my huge brainfart in listing "BMW E55/63 AMG" DOH!

Additions/Corrections to the List:
Mercedes-Benz E55/63 AMG
SL 55 AMG
C5 Z06
Ford Mustang SVT Cobras (Terminator, SN-95s, except for Cobra R)

George Knighton

Because of the unpopularity of the RLX, the KC2 continues to be available at extraordinary discounts.

It's just not advertised, and even some hard core Honda fans have never seen one or know what it is.

They sent us about 450 of them in the 2014 model year (but not until the Fall of 2014), none of them in 2015, and another approximately 450 of them in the 2016 model year.

430 total HP, 377 of which can be put on the road at any time.

I've owned one for 45K miles now, and despite the fact that it gets 0-60 in 4.8, the lifetime MPG is...31.5. Seriously.

Although reviewers spoke well of this car, there are so few of them that people don't know about them and they'll sit on a dealer's lot for a while before they are discovered.

When one becomes available, it is force shipped to a dealer, and there's no choice of color. It just shows up.

I got lucky with mine because the sales manager knew I'd been asking questions about the KC2, and he called me on a Sunday as soon as it showed up, and I just drove over and got it.

teh CL

iTrader: (1)

430?

George Knighton

This is a video from Acura Canada (where the KC2 version is more often available), illustrating how the Sport Hybrid system works.

The programming is tuned to enthusiasts, and the car will allow you to take a mild oversteering attitude when the various inputs tell the car that this is what you are trying to do.

George Knighton

430 total. They only advertise 377.

After driving the car for as long as I have, it seems to me that the 47 HP front motor is usually used to pre-select the two gear shafts and the gears up and down, and would provide forward acceleration only when the car can tell you mean business.

The maximum 0-60 would be available when in Sport Mode, but even then you'd have to manually select first gear. The car has plenty of power for almost all occasions without having to look for maximum acceleration.

ICE: 310 HP
Transmission pancake motor: 47 HP
Left rear: 36 HP
Right rear: 36 HP

So, okay...429 total. :-)

George Knighton

The use of the 47 HP motor in the transmission makes the DCT 7 seem very smooth in comparison to some others, like the Porsche PDK.

When you're driving a 911 with the PDK, you become acutely aware of the shifts, even to the point you'll feel jerked around a little bit, and you hear the gear whine.

By comparison, the KC2 is very quiet, and the 47 HP motor is used to pre-select the gears in anticipation, both up and down, and the electrics also serve to keep the car's momentum going when you are between gears.

It's very smooth compared to the PDK.

I wish that they had the resources to mass produce these and advertise them, because this is Honda at its best.

They're all built in Saiyama and imported, and there's every indication that they never really meant to sell many of them.

nist7

I think the RLX with the Sport Hybrid SH-AWD is a great gem hidden within the Acura lineup. Though I feel it is a bit pricier at MSRP with its competition when people shop at that market segment and not to mention the unknown-entity that is the Sport Hybrid RLX.

I think it can be a GREAT sleeper car for a used market 3-5 years down the road and it can be on this list of affordable power. Or it can already be on the list of good bargains to consider for the price.

What is the meaning of the KC2 designation? Is it referring to the Sport Hybrid version of the RLX?

teh CL

iTrader: (1)

Interesting….


IMO, the Sport Hybrid is quite the interesting car and I can't wait to get one for a test drive.


​​​​​​​

nist7

Did you know that the Sport Hybrid RLX drivetrain is essentially the NSX hybrid drivetrain backwards? The NSX has the direct drive motor in the back with the two motors upfront.....the RLX has two motors in the back with one direct motor upfront.

I've posted this a few times in other threads but if you look at the actual tech specs of the 3 motors, they are exactly the same spec (RPM and torque wise) between the RLX and the NSX. There is a thought that these motors in the RLX and the NSX may actually be identical/very similar.

teh CL

iTrader: (1)

It's crossed my mind but I never got around to looking into it..



​​​​​​​Just did a quick search and the Hybrid is tough to catch, P-AWS for days though..

TacoBello

And it's exterior styling... leaves much to be desired.

While there are some that do like it, many more are left scratching their heads.

nist7

Yeah it's definitely a unicorn, especially in few years down the road. They sell something like about a dozen a month this year. As long as there isn't a cult following developing for these RLX's driving up prices like crazy...I think they can be a great value for the car. And as long as the Sport Hybrid system lasts for a while and it is low maintenance/repair.....

teh CL

iTrader: (1)

I've only encountered 2 or 3 on the road but every time i see one the front end just drags me in, just has this stealth presence ..



Still a few years away from seriously looking into one but my eye will definitely be on the look out once those KMs start adding up..

TacoBello

I'd question the low maintenance/repair. it MIGHT be okay in the long run... but I've noticed there are a number of current owners on AZ already reporting issues with this, issues with that... just look through the RLX section. It's kind of disappointing, really. And if anything does need to be fixed or replaced regarding the SH-SH-AWD system, I can only imagine how expensive that would be. I can't imagine many aftermarket parts manufacturers jumping on board to make parts for a car that only sold 600 units per year. If that is the case, make sure you bring the lube when you go into an Acura dealership. They're going to have a parade in your honor.

teh CL

iTrader: (1)

Wait and see how it all plays out I guess..

George Knighton

The KC2 is the 5G Legend, sold as the RLX Sport Hybrid in North America.

There are things we do not get in our "Advance" package that comes in other markets, like the rear seat controls in the fold down armrest.

The 2016 and 2017 KC2 in North America have the surround camera system. The 2014 versions like mine do not.

KC2 is the chassis designation.

nist7

Right and this is my major concern as well. Which why definitely good to wait a few years to see how the SH system holds up. But as you said, these kinds of highly complex technology systems are not shade-tree/independent-shop repair-able, and so you'll be relegated to the stealership.

George Knighton

I cannot argue about RLX reliability. There's a long list of TSB and a couple of recalls for the KC1, and some of those have also applied to the KC2.

Speaking personally, my own car was taken out of my hands for over a week while they researched what had gone wrong with the VCM rocker arm assemblies, which problem caused unusual operations of the car's high HP modes even though it still got 30-32 mpg.

It took a long time to get the car back on the road because they really wanted to know what was wrong and in the end they decided not to use parts in stock in California, but imported redesigned parts from Japan with different materials in the design.

It's a decision you'd have to reason out for yourself. At 66,000 MSRP, but easily discounted to 56,000 or less for the *ADVANCE* version, it seems to me it's still a great buy.

I saw the STS-V up there in the first list, which is why I talked about the KC2. If you're willing to accept Cadillac reliability, the Honda is going to come out way ahead.

We're talking personal opinions, of course, and what the hell do I know.

George Knighton

I wanted to come back and mention that all three electric motors being used on the KC2 are the exact same units being used on the NSX Sport Hybrid and the upcoming MDX Sport Hybrid that's supposed to be available later in 2017.

This seems to be what they've decided to do as they work their way from efficient ICE --> Sport Hybrid, on the way to -->All Electric.

An upcoming Fit model also uses a FWD-only version of this technology.

TacoBello

While there are some brands that add up the total power between the engine and electric motors, I think you are truly misleading people by posting that here. 429hp is an imaginary and also unattainable number with the RLX, because if I'm not mistaken, their power and torque curves do not line up in such a manner to ever produce 429hp. Even Acura admits to this and claims the car only puts out 377hp.

Now, I know you will say that Porsche and Ferrari and whoever else does it, so why can't Acura? Well, I'm willing to bet we don't know enough about how Porsche or Ferrari or anyone else is putting power down. Maybe their torque and power curves to actually align, to provide combined numbers of power. I think there's also an assumption being made that Acura's electric motors are in the same league as everyone else's- this may be true, but I have yet to see anything conclusive indicated that is the case.

While the car does seem to produce excellent torque, right off the line, I'm having a hard time keeping it in this thread. The car just simply does not provide high power at a bargain price, and that's all we are looking for here.

TacoBello

We're still talking about no more than 1500 units per year. Maybe 2000.

Compared to other cars that easily sell 20 times that in a year.

As a parts manufacturer, I'd aim to build parts towards the car that sold 40000 units per year, as opposed to 2000.

wackjum

I always thought the SH-AWD 4th gen TL 6MT was a hidden gem for Acura. The performance and athleticism was surprising for such a large car. If you get the pre 2012 MMC, they are quite a bit cheaper because of the questionable exterior design.

George Knighton

I'm absolutely with you there!

I had a 4G TL 6-6 SH-AWD for something like 120K miles, and it was a truly underrated car.

In many ways, this made-in-America, made-for-Americans car was ahead of the car that I'm driving now, in terms of the quality of materials, and overall reliability.

I'm not sure it has enough HP to fit into what the premise was for the thread, but I'm absolutely behind you that this was an awesome car.

Rick_TL-S

True on the Corvette, but most under $30,000 are your standard C5s which produced 350Bhp at its end. Not awful, but cars are pushing that kind of power these days for $30,000. The C5Z though, gives you all the extra fun bits. Not a bad alternative if the new Camaro SS is just out of reach for someone. You're only down 50Bhp on it (405-to-455Bhp), but you're quicker to 60 by a couple milliseconds & equal quarter mile times. Not bad for the relative whose 2 generations back.

I think E39 values have gone up because it's basically, the benchmark for power sedans & the conservative styling stands time.

The Termi is a good choice as well. As far as I can see, the only reason to spend over $30,000 for one is if you absolutely want a pristine, never-used, example. Even then, under 10,000 miles, <$35K.

JJones91

I think my STS-V takes the cakes on this one fellas :P

470hp for $14,000 and the amount of luxury you get is unbelievable.
with a 0-60 in 4.6s and a 1/4 at 13s flat you can't go wrong here.

Inside you get an interior that is leather stitched top to bottom, 15 speaker Bose stereo, standard Navigation, bluetooth, heated seats front and rear, and much more.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

If you're willing to deal with a little higher mileage, you can snag a V2 CTS sedan/coupe as well.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

I'm sure you realize you're why OP started this thread!

JJones91

I have no knowledge of what you speak of! LOL

George Knighton

Within the parameters established by the original poster, I would probably agree. :-)

Although we could argue about what affordability means, and whether reliability should factor.

And with TacoBello in the thread, let's face it, we can argue about everything.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

shots fired!

I will say that after 3 months, knock on wood, but no issues at all!
edit: on a V wagon

JJones91

Only thing I had to replace was my thermostat which ran me a whopping $25.

Actually these drivetrains for my car are real solid. No major problems at all with them.

Rick_TL-S

Doesn't even have to be higher mileage unless they've gone up in price a bit.

We had a 6MT come through work that had under 40,000 miles & was asking low $30Ks for it. Kind of regret not trying to pick it up at the time.

nist7

Incredible. V2s can be had in the 30s now? I'd think anything in the 40k's would be a great deal. Though I guess the first year V2s were out in 2008-2009 now....

The local outdoor strip mall area in our town has a regular visitor in a black CTS-V3 sedan with carbon bits (heard owner yelling "it's carbon fiber!" to some ogling dudes) and sounds mean AF.

Rick_TL-S

I think they're still holding strong in the 40+'s, it's just that the occasional example will pop up down in the 30's every so often. The example we had was basically babied its whole life by a lady who decided it was more car than she needed.

JJones91

OP add the Ford Lightning!

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

They did go up, Rick...
especially the wagons!