juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

Honestly, I didn't really read too much into the article. Simply replied about what was listed... that the piece listed 3 of the top 6 as Acura's. Maybe I used the wrong smiley. I wasn't really shocked. I actually thought it was a pretty poorly written article... opinion or not.

The thing that I found most interesting (OK, not really that interesting, but most interesting) is that a common Yahoo! blogger put 3 Acura's in the "top" 6 of that list. It kind of goes to show you that many others feel Acura is missing the mark as well.

I mean look... I desperately want to like them. I loved my TL-S. Only reason I got rid of it was b/c I was close to 100k and was clunking my way to a third tranny. But I saw a fairly new RL yesterday in our parking garage and it looked like an Accord. I mean almost exactly like the new Accord... but not as nice. And the new TL still looks like a bloated bird to me. Hard to get excited about that. Comparing Acura's position (maybe perception is the better word) in the market now versus when I was a fanboy... it's just disappointing.

ttribe

Oh no, I get the joke...when it's aimed at someone who can't get it right. Has someone else been doing it for real in this thread?

AZuser

I'm going to make a guess and say that the ZDX wasn't included in the list because it has been discontinued while the MDX, ILX, and TSX wagon have not. Why talk about how poor of a seller the ZDX is when the reason it was discontinued is because.... it was a poor seller?

Every car on the list is still being produced (i.e. not discontinued). Sure, you can say the Infiniti EX isn't available anymore but that's because Infiniti renamed it the QX50.

I'm going to make another guess and say it's because of the poor ILX sales numbers

2012

may = 168
jun = 1,081
jul = 1,410
aug = 1,733
sep = 1,737
oct = 1,529
nov = 2,108
dec = 2,485

2013

jan = 1,558
feb = 1,997
mar = 2,059
apr = 1,894
may = 1,709
jun = 1,507
jul = 1,482
aug = 1,701
sep = 1,363

As I noted here: https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=964

Acura's initial sales goal for the ILX was 40,000 a year. When they realized that wasn't ever going to happen, they dialed it back to 30,000 a year.

If you look at ILX sales during the 12 month period from May '12 (first month it went on sale) to Apr '13, they sold 19,759. If you look at ILX sales for the past 12 months (from Oct '12 to Sep '13), they sold 21,392. Those numbers are both a far cry from their revised 30,000 sales goal.

To put those numbers visually...

Costco

Great job, Acura. TSX sales were already taking a dive, you managed to merely cannibalize your own sales further by introducing an Acura that the odd passerby might confuse for a Civic.

Moog-Type-S

If you get the joke, then why the question?

Infinity is the best!!!

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

I stopped reading at Acura would obliterate

/thread

ttribe

Okay. My bad.

oo7spy

Junior, I personally don't see the cars looking anything alike, but that is completely opinion. All it takes is one trip around the block to realize why the RL isn't an Accord. I don't really understand the flak. If MB had made the CLA look like an E-class, would it make your E350 any less of the car it is?

AZuser, the article was "Cars That Americans Don't Want". Amazing that the Murano CrossCab didn't make the list. By your argument, the article should have been called "Cars that missed projected sales numbers". Acura is discontinuing the TSX. Why is it a terrible idea to have two cars that are similar in almost every way including sales numbers? When the TSX goes away, the ILX will pickup the slack left behind. Considering that the cumulative sales of the TSX and ILX are more than the TSX sales were alone, it looks like it was a good business move. Should Acura really care that AZ disapproves?

My only point is that the article is not a true survey based on objective facts. Thus, it is practically worthless.

charliemike

I'm sorry. I wandered into the wrong thread. I was told there would be obliteration.

fsttyms1

Oh its coming. Just wait.

ttribe

I'm not sure this is true. My gut instinct is that the average TSX buyer is a different demographic than the average ILX buyer, but I could be wrong.

This assumes both models are profitable at the current sales level. I'm not sure we can assume that.

To the extent that we represent a cross-section of former owners who left the brand because of its missteps...yes, they should care.

I don't know that anyone really ever disagreed with you on the quality of the analysis offered up in the article.

AZuser

But the Murano CrossCabriolet did make the list. It's #7.

If you look at Nissan's monthly sales press releases, you can see that they don't break down Murano and Murano CrossCabriolet sales separately and it's considered the same model, so when Nissan reports Murano sales, it's for both the Murano and the Murano CrossCabriolet. Similarly, when the author put the Murano as #7, he's referring to both the Murano and the Murano CrossCabriolet.

Pull up Nissan Murano/Murano CrossCabriolet sales numbers for 2013, through August.

jan 2013 = 2,996
feb = 3,987
mar = 4,870
apr = 2,404
may = 3,152
jun = 3,178
jul = 3,787
aug = 3,925
_______________
TOTAL = 28,299

From the article:

It probably could have been if the author included what the sales projections were for each model on the list and by how much sales fell short, but he didn't. And since he didn't include projection numbers, we cannot call it that. However, we do know what Acura's sales projections were for the ILX and we do know that it missed them by a mile.


Yes, they likely are. But what does the TSX have to do with the "10 cars Americans don't want to buy" list? The TSX isn't on the list, but the TSX wagon is. Why? It's likely because Honda breaks down TSX and TSX wagon sales, and we can see how poorly TSX wagon sales are.


You don't know that for sure. The TSX is a much better value than the ILX. The people who are choosing the TSX over the ILX realize this. So if/when the TSX goes away, there are 3 possible scenarios:

1. people who would have bought the TSX will buy another brand (maybe the Accord EX-L V6 or Touring?)
2. people who would have bought the TSX will buy the ILX
3. people who would have bought the TSX will buy a higher model Acura sedan

If I were to make a guess, I'd say that shoppers who would have purchased the TSX will buy another brand instead of stepping down to the ILX. I know that's what I'd do.


Obviously they don't care because if they did, we'd still be driving Acuras and their sales will be better for it.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

Maybe it was just the color it was in (red), but it looked like an Accord from all angles. I know it's not, but parked, it was damn close.

And if the CLA looked like the E-class or vice-versa, it would not make either less or more. Both are a Mercedes.

Acura needs to differentiate itself from Honda... not model itself after it. I don't look at a Lexus ES and see a Toyota Camry. I see a Lexus.

oo7spy

Points taken.

fsttyms1

madrussian190

I agree on making a wider gap between Honda. But, every time i sit in a Lexus, that interior SCREAMS Toyota.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

^ The ES may be debatable... but have you been in a new GS or LS?

Even the new IS is pretty sweet.

oo7spy

I guess I haven't been in a new Camry, but the ES interior screams Lexus to me. Besides the two-tone interiors, I think Lexus did a good job on their last go 'round.
Camry:


ES:

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

Huh?

Which Lexus did you sit in? 2004 ES?

05TLdcc

Nissan has sold more of that abomination than Acura has sold ILXs. Unbelievable.

H_CAR

No they didn't

When I sat in the new ES I didn't think the interior was up to Lexus quality, it was noticeably worse than the old one. The new Avalon has a nicer interior in my experience, and I hear it drives better too.

I also think it looks better too

The GS and LS get a big from me though. I also didn't like the new RX I drove that much. I liked the older ones better, much nicer inside.

AZuser

I'll let the numbers speak for themselves.

May - Dec 2012 sales

ILX = 12,251
Murano = 33,523

Jan - Sept 2013 sales

ILX = 15,270
Murano = 31,178


How'd the Murano do in years prior to 2012?



It has outsold the RDX



and the MDX



Now that I think about it, why is the Murano on the list. Sales of 50,000+ a year isn't bad at all.

The Honda Crosstour sells worse than the Murano.

oo7spy

He meant the CrossCab.

Because the list is a joke and should have never been linked on a serious car forum site.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

I wouldn't be surprised if Toyota's flagship was nicer then one of Lexus' entry level cars. Not sure that's the best comparison...

AZuser

Maybe that's what H_CAR meant, but that's not what 05TLdcc meant.


That like saying the interior of the Accord Touring is nicer than the interior of the ILX, which is sorta true.

ttribe

This. Every time I see an ES I think "Overpriced Camry", but the GS, etc. are completely different animals.

oo7spy

05TL is who I meant. How can you be so sure? The Murano isn't an abomination. The cross cab is.

madrussian190

Personally, Toyota/Lexus interiors have never done it for me... Neither have Nissan/Inifiti TBO... But personal choice i guess.

For as much as they charge for their cars, they should be on a much higher standard... Look at ZEE GERMANZ !

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

^ I think I found your rare talent.

You know how to make people go .

AZuser

I can be so sure because Nissan doesn't break down Murano vs Murano CrossCabriolet sales (they're combined together), and because they don't there's no way 05TLdcc could say that Nissan has sold more CrossCabriolet's than Acura has sold ILXs.

05TLdcc was comparing the Murano sales #s to ILX sales #s.

But let's ask 05TLdcc to make sure. 05TLdcc?

H_CAR

My local Nissan dealer has sold 2 CrossCabrio Murano's since it went on sale 2 year ago. The rest they use as demos because they can't sell them! You can't compare Murano SUV sales to the ILX. The ILX outsells the CrossCab by a lot, but it's apples to potatoes and they both need to be rethought any way.

This X100000

I disregarded it as soon as I saw the MDX on that list. (Sold 6500 units in August)

Didn't cha' know the ES is now based on the Avalon and not the Camry? Wouldn't it make sense that the ES have a nicer interior in this case, especially when they cost similar $$$$?

That is what I meant...


I don't find that acceptable, the ILX should be worth the premium over the Accord. I believe the ILX should be a better car than the Accord in all aspects except for the limited space. If I bought in an ILX I shouldn't be loosing out in refinement, features, and quality. Otherwise it would make no sense to me. If the ILX replaces the TSX, and the TSX was the entry level Acura and felt more expensive than the previous gen Accord, the new entry level Acura [ILX] should feel the same. I used the previous generation Accord as an example because the new Accord has been on sale for a year, and typically when a new Accord drops, there are questions as to if it's worth the premium. (See 2003 TL vs. 2003 Accord, even the 2008 Accord vs. 2008 TL)

Same issue I have with the ILX I have with the CLA, it doesn't seem worth the premium over an Accord V6 Touring (considering I could care less about the badge and I'm not a fan of the looks) and the interior in lower trims is on the same level as the ILX. I've sat in it and seen it person.

Loaded it's C class, 3 series, Q50, IS etc. money

Moog-Type-S

Perhaps the Acura brand will be obliterated?

Moog-Type-S

Put down the bong!

The current/new Lexus interior designs are nothing short of beautiful.

05TLdcc

Sorry guys, meant CrossCab.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

Car Talk is part of Off-Topic. Probably lucky if we're half serious in here

I know that... you know that... but a majority of the buyers of these cars do not. And they don't care. The Avalon is Toyota's flagship... and they are going to push it as such. The ES is arguably the gateway into the Lexus brand (read: lower model). Toyota is in a great position. They can get buyers to pick up an Avalon... keep it a few years, then move to the Lexus brand and "upgrade" to an ES. They have no clue it's essentially the same car. Then, down the road... a loyal buyer will move up to the GS and maybe the LS. It's a great strategy. They're marketing what is a very similar car two completely different ways, and laughing all the way to the bank...