H_CAR

When I set a budget to buy a car, whether it be 30, 40, or 50 grand, I'm not going to easily put up another 10,000 to get a better car. Are you serious?

The Mazda6 is a great car which deserves to sell better. Do sales reflect that it's worse than the Camry? The 4G TL isn't selling because the FWD model is the one most people buy, and it's no better than an Accord. The AWD one is a different story.

I haven't driven the TL SH-AWD, but every review and I mean every review points towards it being an impressive car for the money. I have driven the 2013 Accord (Quite a few times actually, my good friend has a Sport.) EXCELLENT car, damn near perfect but I've never heard anyone compare the Accord to an SH-AWD TL. They're simply not on the same level.

I prefer the looks of the Accord to the TL (which is sad and basically why this thread exists) but I am a big fan of the refreshed TL in SH-AWD trim.

Ken1997TL

Totally serious. If you can afford a ~$40,000 car, you should be able to afford one that's $50,000. It's a simple matter of income. You're already buying a premium car. If you can't afford another 20% then you really should be sticking to something more basic. In other words, you're living beyond your means

So yes, I can compare a loaded Accord with a TL or even an RLX. I thought about all three and concluded the Accord is 1) an excellent car, regardless of price and 2) the other vehicles like the TL are out of date and the RLX, simply don't offer THAT much more for car for double the money.

If I'm going to spend ~$45k to $60k on an RLX, I'm going to see what else is out there for that kind of cash. I did, tried out various vehicles ranging from Audi to BMW to Lexus. Concluded they were all quite nice but in the end I'd rather get a loaded Accord and save 50% of the potential money I would have spent.

In other words, the Acura products didn't excite me OR win over the logical part of my brain for the first time in a while.

I've owned more Acuras and Hondas than 99% of the people on this board. THAT should equate to something. Acura needs to release a better TL and pronto. And it better offer excitement AND value. The Accord is going to eat all those potential sales until then!

Ken1997TL

I should also mention my Accord has the following features:

Heated leather seats
Navigation
Lane Departure Warning
Forward Collision Warning
Blindspot Camera
Multiple angle backup camera, with good night vision
Audio touchscreen
36+ mpg on the highway
And is comfortable and as quiet as a Camry, handles as well as a FWD TL.

In other words, Acura really needs to make the next TL worth the premium over an Accord. They failed with the ILX completely. It's a nice car, same argument as we're having vs. the Civic or many other cars at that price range. But in the end, it fails to offer value or uniqueness. Better off with a Civic or for the same price an Accord or other car that offers more features, more room etc.

H_CAR

That's great that you could afford all those cars much higher in price than your Accord, and that you could afford to trade in a TSX after a year. Most people can't and you know it. My Odyssey was 40,000, does that mean I should be able to stretch my budget to 50,000? 10,000 is a lot of money, I would understand if you were talking about a 3-4,000 dollar difference, but 10 grand makes a huge difference in payments.

What I should have said is that I wouldn't be comfortable spending 10,000 more on a car. When I was looking for a CUV, my budget was 25,000 (I bought a CR-V) in the end I ended up getting the EX-L NAVI model for 30 grand because I figured since I could afford it why not.

I firmly believe Honda is one of the best non premium brands out there, which is one of the reasons the only Acura I've only really come close to buying is the 2G MDX (new) and 3G TL (used). Honda's generally are up their as far as quality and feel which why I've owned so many of them. I almost bought the MDX in 2007 and then again in 2011 but the gas mileage was not enough for me. I've never owned an Acura, but I've driven quite a few of them and have had soon to be seven (Adding a 2013 Accord to the stable soon) Honda's and currently have three.

The thing is, I still think the TL SH-AWD is worth the money and is a good value. We're not talking about the ILX, TSX, and FWD which I don't think are. Even the RLX, which for the same money I'd much rather buy an M. Yes the Accord is available with more features, but there is much more to a car than features. Plus, for what I would pay for a TL SH-AWD, there is no BMW, Audi or Lexus that has the same feature content as the TL SH-AWD for that kinda money, and the features the TL has are basic.

Ken1997TL

Most can't afford an Acura. That's my entire point. When you have $$$, you have options and can afford to be choosey. Acura shouldn't take that customer for granted.

oonowindoo

Unless Acura can sell $100k sedan like hotcakes, then they are not tier 1.. not even tier 2

Excluding Exotics
Tier 1: BMW, Mercedes, Audi/Porsche
Tier 2: Lexus all by itself
Tier 3: Acura, Infiniti and everyone else who claims to be luxury brand.

Sarlacc

I think Lexus is very much tier 1...their standardized service layout alone trumps all the rest.

I would put Infiniti at Tier 2...with Hyundai quickly moving into this territory with the Equus and Genesis Sedan.

05TLdcc

This. Acura can't give away an ILX, when Porsche can get basically sticker on any new car they put on the lot.

In all honesty, this whole debate is silly.

Joneill44

Why is this still going on

oo7spy

Sorry Ken, but this makes no sense to me. Also, it's not 20%; its 25%. 25% is a big step.

oonowindoo

eh I would want to put Lexus in Tier 1 but most of the people would still put BMW/Mercedes/Audi/Porsche above Lexus

LS vs 7 series and S class
GS Vs 5 series and E class
IS Vs. 3/4 series and C class
F Sport line Vs. M and AMG

Lexus's image is just a little under in every category.
It has nothing to do with the car.

I thought infiniti was catching up to Lexus fast in 2003, even in 2008. But their designs have really been going backwards.

The current Q50s will never be as successful as G35/G37 unless they introduce a new engine as they promised and Q60 better look as ground breaking as G35 did in 2003 and they lost a potential customer (me) when they stopped offering 6mt.

Otherwise, Infiniti will be going back to the bottom with Acura. Companies like Infiniti and Acura are playing catch up, so they have to offer MORE than the benchmark. Lexus and other tier 1 brands have loyal customer base and reputation, they can afford to offer fucked up cars and still get away with them.

Joneill44

Sarlacc

I'm basing this on the cars not the customers.

Lexus is and offers tier 1.

Infiniti...while fucking up some designs and the naming system...still offer tech, luxury, RWD and V8s but not quite at the level as tier 1.

Acura...they are scraping, doing everything their way or the highway as usual. And have had a brand identity problem for over 10 years.

ttribe

[sigh] I've said plenty of times I believe the F30 is a step backward in many ways, including the quality of interior materials.

I never said the buttons were hard to use. I simply pointed out that I thought there were too many of them. I've come to prefer (over time) a less cluttered center-stack. Nevertheless, I know I'm not alone; read any recent review of an Acura or Honda by a major automotive magazine and it's likely you'll find the same criticism.

None of that gets Acura into Tier 1; that's the point.

Yes, I agree. That, by itself, does not get Acura into Tier 1; that's the point.

The SH-AWD TL still needs work (despite the technological marvel that the SH-AWD system is) in order to make it competitive on more than a discounted and value-play basis; neither of which get Acura into Tier 1...again I say - That's the point.

Ken1997TL

My bad on the percentage..

My point remains. If you're hesitant about spending more on a premium vehicle, then you shouldn't be buying one anyway. Clearly your income is not as disposable as you think it is.

If you build it right, they will come..

AirForceFX

I want another Type-S. This time with AWD and 6MT.

F23A4

All the brand cons aside (and once one gets beyond it's polarizing style) the current SH-AWD 6MT slots in nicely as a contemporary "TL-S" 6MT AWD.

gatrhumpy

iTrader: (1)

My TL-S has that.

fsttyms1

100% With the Gen 2 Genesis sedan around the corner and what they did with the Gen 1 id venture to say they should/will be easily considered a tier 2

Legend2TL

+1

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

Knew where this thread was going to be w/o clicking on it. Was not disappointed as the topic pops up every few months. At least we're consistent...

oonowindoo

You are correct if you are basing this on the cars.

But this Tier crap is mostly based on reputation and prestige, not on cars. Of course, you have to have good cars to get you there and just milk it.

Otherwise, (Genesis Sedan and Equus) Hyundai should be Tier 1

Sarlacc

I think Lexus offers plenty of prestige and certainly reputation.

The genesis and equus are almost there. Not quite yet but another generation or two from hitting that upper echelon if they keep it going.

Costco

Marketing and ad campaigns are huge factors in why the car companies are slotted the way they are. It's why BMW or Apple can produce something inferior (I'm being intentionally vague here) to the competition and yet outsell them by a huge margin.

@ Hyundai being Tier 2. While I really like what they're doing, they won't be respected in the luxury department because they still have a car in their lineup that MSRPs for under $15k, and their dealership experience sucks. Hyundai has the worst prestige factor out of all of them. How many people do you know of that won't buy a Hyundai, no matter the price?

The term "Tier 1" itself is a term coined by some marketer, I'm almost certain of it.

oonowindoo

They do.

But do you think Lexus has much as other Tier 1 brands?

Lexus's reputation is reliability
German's reputation is Unreliable but no one cares.

That is the difference.

Sarlacc

Yes I do. Especially with Lexus' current line up of designs and especially interiors. People have been taking notice.

Lexus is as every bit plush and luxurious (and in some cases more so) as their competition.

Sarlacc

I said I'd never buy a Hyundai back in 1998 when I had a pos accent as a rental and it was pure garbage. I said I'd never buy a Kia after my friends junk sephia in the early 2000s.

Funny how things have changed and those brands have evolved, and now I would very much put either one in my garage (in laws have an optima that I like driving a lot)

Things change.

And Hyundai may never become a tier 1 brand...but they dont have to...they can have certain cars in their line up take the prize...so far it's working out better for them than the phaeton did for VW.

The Genesis and Equus both offer things Acura refuses. RWD and a v8...even a performance variant for the genesis. That alone slots them in a tier above Acura.

Costco

I'm right there with you, except for the Hyundai being in the same tier as Acura.

Trust me, I have tried my best to convince some of my family members to at least consider a Hyundai. Nope. They don't necessarily look at cars on a per-model basis or according to a stat sheet, what they see "BMW, MB, Lexus... Hyundai".

I have no qualms about buying a Hyundai, but I would say they're at best at the same tier as Acura, or realistically a step down. People may crap on Acura for offering the ILX with a powertrain ripped out of a base-model Civic, but at least they don't actually offer the Veloster, Accent, and Elantra under the same nameplate.

Sarlacc

I didn't say they were tier 1....

Costco

When it comes to sedans, BMW, MB, Lexus, Infiniti, and to a different extent, Audi all do things very differently from their lower-end sister divisions. BMW, MB and Infiniti have dedicated RWD platforms exclusive to their division's models. Lexus only shares architecture on the CT200h and ES350. The HS250h was predictably killed off.

I don't have any hard numbers on this, but I see many more FWD VWs than I do 4motion/AWD, yet on Audis I see many more with the quattro badge than without.

Acura becoming Tier 1 would involve them revamping their entire sedan lineup. Driving dynamics aren't nearly different enough between models, let alone among sister brands. This is a humongous obstacle, and with the way Honda/Acura operates (shared platforms, shared powertrains) I don't see that happening for a very long time, if ever.

Had a brain fart while skimming, fixed it.

Sarlacc

Audi made their name with Quattro. So, that why you see that.

An Audi without Quattro isn't an Audi :-D

AirForceFX

It's not enough. I want to be coddled by the company into believing I spent money on something special and unique. Not just a tier level.

F23A4

Is that what you felt rewarded with when you procured your 08 TL-S?

H_CAR

I see your point.

Not sure if Acura wants to become tier one, which is a problem in itself because Acura has no idea what they want do. I don't RWD platforms and V8's is the answer though. If Acura could engineer something like the 3G TL which competed well as a FWD and come out with an SH-AWD Type S model to compete well against the S4 and 335XI (While being universally good looking) they're sales #'s would increase a lot.

Look at how many cars Acura's sold in 2004 and 2005. They weren't Tier 1 then.

Acura sells enough cars where they're not on the edge of packing up and closing down. For this reason I think they'll pull threw and figure themselves out.

The TLX is Acura's last chance. If they can't get it right it's over. Very competitive field now.

ttribe

Part of the source of the debate is the fact that Acura has, at various times in its history, expressed a desire to become part of the Tier 1 conversation, only to shy away. It's just more evidence of the lack of direction and focused thinking at the marque; a problem which has also manifested itself in the vehicle design. It's frustrating for anyone (like many members of this board) who became emotionally invested in the brand only to be let down.

oo7spy

I do consider the Genesis to be a premium sedan. Lets say I can afford to spend $500/month on my car which puts a Genesis into the budget range (~$35k). By your logic, I should also be able to consider an R-spec putting me $1,500 over my budget at the end of the year. If I can afford to spend $500/month on my car, does $1500 suddenly not matter anymore? If I can afford to buy a $200k house, should I consider a $250k house? Where does it stop, and what is the point of a budget if your ceiling doesn't matter? Like I said, I am sorry to disagree and slightly derail the thread, but your logic doesn't make any sense to me.

I don't see what this has to do with budgets. You can either afford it or not. The people who can will come. You are right about that.

AirForceFX

I like to think so.

jkilla369

So basically we can that right now acura is to honda what Luigi is to Mario. Right?

jkilla369

By the way the Mario and Luigi reference in my last post was just for fun lol, I am 22 and still play video games but not obsessed with them, just had some fond memories of those Mario games as a child.

Joneill44

Acura has 3 of the top 10 cars Americans dont want to buy according to yahoo..

http://autos.yahoo.com/news/10-cars-....html?page=all