jkilla369

Hi all, I am new to Acurazine so sure about the rules here as far as posting goes. Anyways I have visiting this site on and off for the last few years, and have read a few threads talking about how acura as a brand as not achieved the same prestigious status as its cross country rival Lexus, and how Acura trails Lexus by far in U.S. sales. I believe that if acura became a tier one luxury autobrand this entire situation would be different. I mean if you look at it acura is known for bulletproof reliability (lexuses are pretty reliable too, but not as much as Acura), they have the sporty fun to drive factor(although that image has diminished a bit in recent years due to the upcoming CAFE demands), they are more fuel efficient, and they have an excellent resale value(which Lexus has too). Ok maybe saying they will obliterate Lexus in sales is a bit of a stretch, but I certainly think Acura would outsell Lexus had achieved a more prestigious brand image and had the full product lineup to go up against similar offerings from that of Lexus, hell, I think acura would even give the germans autobrands(BMW, MB, and Audi) a run for their money if they made it into tier one territory. So tell me guys, what do you think? Do you believe Acura would outshine Lexus in the luxury market if they had a more prestigious image?

ttribe

I believe Acura's opportunity to do what you described passed them by about 10 years ago. There's a great deal of inertia impacting the market perception in place at this point. Honestly, I'd love to see Acura live up to its potential, but they've gone in all the wrong directions in recent history. It's an uphill battle for them at this point.

Aman

I think 10 years ago is a bit of a stretch, they had some good momentum back then with the release of the TL and TSX. I think their best opportunity was around 2008-2009.

Becoming a "Tier One" brand is easier said than done. I imagine Acura's R&D costs now undercut Lexus' and Infinitis by a huge margin, since their cars are closer related to Hondas than Nissans and Toyotas are to Infinitis and Lexuses.

Besides, Acuras still sell pretty well, anyways. The only thing they would really gain is their reputation with the enthusiast crowd. Would they make more money? Maybe. But it doesn't seem to be worth the investment.

jkilla369

I understand where you are coming from, but I still think acura has a chance to shine, they just new management and designers, not to saying that their cars are ugly and or anything but they their current designs aren't really giving off a sense of excitement when luxury car buyers step into their showrooms. I think cars like the 2nd generation Acura Legend and 3rd generation Acura TL make a great case proving acuras potential against lexus, I think both of those cars outsold the lexus models that they competed with, we'll atleast the 3rd generation TL which I know outsold the lexus IS at the time

ttribe

Well, I'll disagree a bit on the ugly part - the 4G TL is awful (even the re-fresh only helped with the beak). That being said, if they really have ambitions to join the Tier-1 lux group (and they've said so in the past...and then backed off), they are going to have to a massive overhaul of the lineup. Getting the new NSX to market is just the start. They also (IMO) need to:

- Get a competitive, RWD-based, V-8 option, flagship to compete with the 7-series, the MB S, the A8/S8, etc. The RLX is a disaster as a flagship; even if it's designed to go against the 5-series/E-Class/A6, etc.

- Stop using Accord and Civic FWD platforms to create new Acura models. Acura needs its own dedicated engineering that is unconstrained by the mundane Honda models. And, yes, I do think that means moving to primarily RWD for its sedans.

- A RWD sport coupe anyone?

- A performance line to compete with AMG, M, F, and S.

- The MDX is a good lux SUV, but the competition has passed it in many ways. Time to look for ways to create an upgrade path for the well-heeled customer who doesn't want their MDX to be like every other one on the road.

- Drop the value-play (i.e. "We're almost as good and A LOT cheaper!") marketing angle. If you want to be Tier-1, act like you can charge a premium and deserve to get it (but back it up with a quality offering).

- Overcome the long-held perception that Acuras are mostly warmed-over Hondas. The Accord can now be had with more features than a 3G TL from just a few years ago. The brand needs more separation from the parent. Other than the ES, who really thinks of a Lexus as a fancy Toyota anymore? Not many, I believe.

- Drop the ILX. That car doesn't belong on a Tier-1 lot.

Costco

Acura bluffed about becoming Tier One years ago. They backed down, citing the economy.

People on Acurazine have been clamoring for V8s and RWD platforms for a decade now. It's not going to happen. If you want "Tier One" luxury, find another brand. At this point Hyundai is closer to getting there than Acura.

StreetKA

iTrader: (8)

Bring cl back with proper rwd platform ! Can be called clx i dont care !

jkilla369

Well a RWD platform does seem necessary for a vehicle that is supposed to be sport oriented, but I don't think it is required being that you have more benefits to FWD and AWD in the snow than you would with rear wheel drive, and V8s could definitely be used in acuras more higher end models, but wouldn't say they need them in models such as the TL as even MB, BMW, and Audi are moving away from V8s at this time and looking for more fuel efficient engines to put in their vehicles. I do strongly agree with you though that Acura must stop sharing platforms with Honda vehicles and stop the overuse of front wheel drive in all, of their vehicles especially the RLX which is supposed to be their flagship model. I mean you don't have your luxury flagship model for a luxury brand sharing the exact same underpinnings as its mainstream mass market parent brand; what other luxury car company does that?! With all that said I also agree with you that the ilx is a big mistake on acuras part aswell.

Sarlacc

Wow...this whole discussion...again.

We get it...you're a diehard acura fanboy.

Fact is...Lexus reliability is solid.And you're attempting today that acura nudges them out is unfounded.

Acuras big fight against V8s and RWD (save the NSX) has ALWAYS kept them from playing with the big boys...even Infiniti has surpassed them in that regard. Acura suffers as Honda stepchild side project that could never decided what it wanted to be when it grew up. Sure they have some nice vehicles in their line up, but no where near what they should be.

Acura would have never obliterated Lexus if they went for tier one....because When they both started...Acura was never set to go in the direction Lexus clearly moved towards since day one.

This might be an acura site...but fanboism really has no place here, most of us dumped our acuras long ago and have all moved on to other makes/models...You want to fit in and hang out...welcome....just drop the tired old "acura rules" threads.

jkilla369

The only way the ilx could become a competent contender is for acura to put in a more powerful engine with more horsepower too add more sporty dynamics to the car and to make all ilxs come standard with leather. It looks very bad on an auto manufacturer that is supposed to be considered a luxury brand to put out with cloth seats. If acura did this I think the ilx would make a viable competitor to the Mercedes CLA and BMW 1 series.

jkilla369

Oh and they can come out with a coupe version while they're at it.

Crazy Bimmer

Have a better chance of Hyundai beating Lexus than Acura.

I dont see what the big deal is, Acura does well in the segment its in. Some people might not want the prestige that comes with Lexus, BMW, Benz, etc..

neuronbob

Look, jkilla, I'm about as Honda/Acura fanboi as you can get. I bleed Honda and damn near worship Soichiro Honda.

That doesn't stop Acura from having made some horrible (to me) design decisions the last few years, and right now Acura makes little that interests me. I'm one of those who wanted a V8 and big power....and I've had to move on to another brand for now because Acura went another direction. They make nothing sporty now when that was part of their schtick for a long time. Honda has started the long climb back, but Acura....not yet.

That said.....oh man, this discussion again? We've only had a billion of these in the last five years.

Sarlacc

Acura is a great entry level luxury car maker...and thats a great market segment to strive for...but you know as well as everyone else here (certain fanboys in the auto news section excluded) that know acura lost their focus and their design sense...and it hurt them.

And I agree with Hyundai...Genesis Sedan...Equus.

At this point...KIA has a better chance over taking Acura. They DO have their version of the genesis coming...the Kronos or something like that.

05TLdcc

If that's what I wanted, I would buy an IS350...

McMilli501

Sarlacc, are you bitter because you don't own an Acura any longer? Should everyone check with you before they post to ensure you or others who have long moved on haven't discussed the topic previously? If anything, your unnecessary criticism is not welcome here. If you don't like it, I'm sure there are many other hillbillies that would love to talk about their Hemi's in a Dodge forum.

jkilla369

Ok maybe I might be a bit of a fanboy, but I am not one of those diehard fanboys who is blind and denies facts. I know that when acura first started out in 1986 they never intended on competing directly with BMW and Mercedes the same way lexus did they intended to offer a more upscale vehicle for Honda owners who wanted to move up into a car more expensive while also staying within the Honda family, but you can't say with certainty that acura wouldn't be a bit more successful than lexus or can't get there one day if they would just
step their game up and do what is necessary for them to get there. As I said before, acura doesn't need a RWD platform to achieve a prestigious brand image being that Audi doesn't have any RWD platform in their lineup at all, but have still managed achieve a prestigious brand perception in the eyes of many. I think acura should distinguish their cars from their mass market honda parent company by making all of or most of their models SH AWD or make lower end trim levels with just a normal AWD drivetrain and making higher trim vehicles SH AWD. The only vehicle in the lineup that I believe should come standard with SH AWD is the RLX which I can see acura has chosen not to do.:d oh::d oh:

Joneill44

Besides my 3G TL-S there isn't another car in the Acura lineup (especially in the current lineup) that I'm attracted to. I cant say that about Lexus, MB, BMW, Audi, Infiniti

Yumcha

I will not rant about the NSX, lack of V8, RWD...nope nope nope nope nope nope. Will not.

jkilla369

Well yeah nowadays Acura's sporty image is starting to fade and their cars aren't as sporty as they used to be, but that doesn't mean the sportiness is completely gone.

Joneill44

Its not gone but if your looking for sporty MB BMW Lexus Audi Infiniti do it better

fsttyms1

Sounds like you are bitter because you dont think he should be able to be on the forum because he has moved on from acura

Yumcha

I cringe to say this, but is it fair to say that Acura's competition these days are Buick and Lincoln...?

Cuz, that's where I slot them in my mind.

Yumcha

And seriously, I'll be more than happy to admit I'm wrong for thinking that. But, that's all I think of when I think of Acura and their immediate competition.

Joneill44

Its a sad thought Yummy

jkilla369

Well Infiniti, Audi, and BMW yes I would say overall have superior performance over acura, but I wouldn't say that lexus has better overall performance than current day acura. I would say they are about on the same page in terms of performance.

Yumcha

And one more thing, now that the RLX is out, can we even say it in the same breath as an E-Class, 5er, or A6...?

neuronbob

Starting to fade? It's pretty much gone. I'm taking Yumcha's stance....I will not rant....not rant....not rant.....urrrrrrrgh.....so hard.......Legend Max missed opportunity....sorry......not ranting.....

Yumcha

THE MUGEN LEGEND MAX!!!


OMG...what could've been...sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...

jkilla369

Well maybe their lower trim level offerings it can be compared, but not their higher trim more expensive models such as the AMG, M5, or S5, however when the hybrid AWD model comes out, I think it will bring the RLX a bit more up the scale.

Yumcha

You are referring to performance? Of course.

But, even on the entry-level E-Class/5-Series/A6...the RLX's interior and drive is just not...the same.

Again, I'd love to be told I'm wrong. But, from what I'm seeing, that's just the sad thing.

Note that I'm not even trying to compare the Infiniti M or Lexus GS to those. But, even in both examples here, I find both Nissan and Toyota's premium brands to be ahead of Acura.

Former owner of a CL, here. I LOVED that car. But, if I had the $$$ today to buy another new car, none of it would be going to an Acura car. That's just the plain reality.

neuronbob

I WOULD HAVE BOUGHT ONE. No lie. I mean, look at what I drive now.

Sorry, that's ranting. I'll just stop now and go to bed.

jkilla369

Yeah. agree but I think acura mostly competes with buick on the lower end of the spectrum with cars like the TSX and the ilx, Linclon I think is a more direct inline competitor to acura although I would also add Infiniti to one the list of one of Acuras main competitors.

Joneill44

is > tsx
tl > es
gs > rlx
ls > ...

McMilli501

Pardon? The OP was being shat on for starting a new thread that has probably been discussed an endless amount and will continue to be discussed so long as Honda continues making everyone question their motive. Hard to say what will happen when the NSX hits the market. Will it mark a turning point in Honda engineering, as did the GTR with Nissan and the ISF with Lexus?

Either way, I agree, Honda needs to poop or get off the pot with Acura.

jkilla369

With that said the TL in terms of size is often compared to the ES but competes more with the IS in terms of pricing.

Yumcha

Car for car, I don't quite agree. Other than the Infiniti G, you COULD make a case that the TL kinda matches up against it...until someone tells you the G is RWD and the performance/driving you get from it. Then, it's not much of a comparison.

And I dunno, for the rest of the cars down the Infiniti line-up, I don't see where Acura's remaining fleet lines up.

The QX is mammoth SUV with a V8...So, okay, does that mean the MDX goes against the FX? Not even in the same segment. Again, the FX has a V8...MDX does not...and it does not perform or function the same.

Anyhow, I could keep going but I would disagree with you on Infiniti/Acura.

Joneill44

Were arguing over a couple hundred bucks

MSRP

IS250: $35,950
TL: $36,030
ES: $36,370

jkilla369

Why would you say the MDX couldn't go up against the FX, it actually does pretty well in competition against the FX, but yeah with the exception of the QX which is the most expensive model in Infiniti's lineup, acura has a vehicle to compete with every other infiniti vehicle. The SH AWD TL stacks up better to the G than the front wheel drive model even though the G may still have superior performance, though not by much.

ttribe

Don't mind the Sarlacc. He didn't eat a Hutt today, so his blood sugar's a little low.