pickler

Have you seen the number of 3 series, A4s and G sedans on the road lately? I don't know about you but the roads near where i live where once packed with Acuras. Now you don't see that anymore. Every driveway in my neighborhood has a 3 series parked in it and the parking lots in my college are full of G35/37, lancer or even the new Sonata! It kinda bothers me how acura has lost sales and more importantly its image with the exception of its SUV lineup.

When someone is shopping for an entry lux sedan they consider the TSX an option, not the TL. The TL is found to be too large and even ugly looking by buyers. This makes the customers end up with the vehicles listed above. Not because TL sucks, no it doesn't. But because
a: TL is NOW in a different class of vehicles
b: Acura offers no worthy alternative against its the competitors.

I'm just trying to say that the TSX needs to become Acura's 3 series.

I personally think the turbo-charged 4-cyl K23 engine on the RDX is a masterpiece of efficiency and power. It is Acura's most fun to drive engine right now. It has so much low end torque and so much high-end horsepower, it really is the perfect engine. It is also very easy to tune and has lots of potential. Yea so its not smooth but no one really considers Acura soft or smooth, that's Lexus' jobs. Instead of a V6 TSX, an available turbo-charged SH-AWD TSX will give the BMW 3 series a run for its money. I mean come on Acura, the IS250, 328i, G37 and the A4 all have optional AWD and some vehicles even have AWD standard now.

Some of you may disagree, but I don't think the TL is any longer a threat to the 3 or even the G37. TL is more in lines of the Infiniti M and the BMW 5 series mainly due to its size. So yea the TL should be about comfort and refinement. The TSX though should be about performance and value, but it's not. A FWD Acura TSX V6 w/tech asks for a staggering $37k. For that money ill take the Premium Plus 8-speed Tiptronic and quattro Audi A4 or the 328xi or the Infiniti G37x AWD. Why not? The TSX is definitely not superior and ill be driving a well known brand car. And for god's sakes make the 6 speed automatic standard on all Acuras.

If Acura doesn't do something soon its sales of its sedans will total the sales of the only one model from just few years ago.

TheMirror

Very good points pickler, nicely done. This thread will get locked right away unfortunately, as there are multiple large threads on this subject. Find the best one of those, and cut/paste what you've typed here into it. We could use a bump on this subject IMO.

-Mirror

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

OP makes some good points. Some of which many of us, including myself have been iterating for a number of years. Although I do not agree with some of what OP had to say, the topic has been beaten to death for a number of years on the board. If you would like to learn more about what many of the other members have had to say about Acura/Honda, over the years, search through the posts in Car Talk or venture over to Automotive News and read any one of the many Acura and/or Honda threads. Feel free to post in any of those threads to continue the discussion.

We'll keep this open for now.

pickler

Thanks for keeping it open. I read a lot of posts about this topic but the threads were all closed. That's why I created a new thread. Anyway my points are Not only about Acuras need for change but rather pointing out the new difference between tl and tsx which I didn't see to have been discussed before.

speedemon90

This guy hasn't been here long, unless he's been for a couple months

but yea pretty much everyone here but the 4g tl guys dont like the direction acura is going.

speedemon90

lol after reading his post i see good points as well. But this is what I always think of.

Say you are shopping for a car, if you are looking at a 5 series, A6, and you say also include the tl. If you are looking for a 5 series or A6, there's a good chance you can afford it. If you can afford it, and you know that all those competitors up in that price range are really nice luxurious cars. Now if you also look at the tl because its the same size you will see that it does not have the refinement and build quality as the others. You dont have the engine choices the 5 series has. When you get in that price range you get to look at a lot more. Now you can probably build a fully loaded tl for the price of the 5 series. But remember you know how much the 5 series cost and you were probably gonna add options so you know you can afford it. The tl now is a class lower than the 5 series all of a sudden. If you have the money, why would you get the tl? Plus theres also the brand name.

I agree with you on a lot of points but, the tl should not be compared with the 5 series, and its competitors. But there are always exceptions.

If you can barely afford a 5 series, and would only look at the base model and some essential options, the TL may look very interesting at this point. So I think its for the buyer that wants the room of the 5 and the luxury of the 3? Cause face it the 3 series, C class, IS, they are all small cars.

winstrolvtec

That's a good observation of where Acura is at right now, we talk about this all the time in the 4G section. Unfortunately they are still in the process of better transitioning their sedan lineup which will take a few more years but at least they have finally decided on a direction for the sedans as well as the brand as a whole which will focus on value, resale, reliability, safety and low cost maintenance.

Overall the brand is strong and sales are good, they rank 6th in total sales on the year of all major US luxury brand sales and that's if you count Buick as a luxury brand, some like JD Powers don't, otherwise Acura is 5th.

I notice you happen to be in Canada, there Acura and all luxury brands sell far less than they do in the US but they actually ranked 3rd as of July in total sales on the year in Canada behind only MB and BMW. So really they are in no immediate danger and do better than some brands that focus on V8's, RWD, and or 7/8 speed AT's and all that other good stuff. IMO, they are a few power moves away from being a top 3 luxury brand competitor as far as sales go.

I think what you are seeing is far less TL's, a product of controversial styling, raised prices and an up market push (at least within the brand) in a down economy. You are also right to suggest that Acura does not approach the market with some of it's products as directly or competitively as their competition.

My take on that is the TL is a mid level alternative, similarly the TSX is an entry level alternative but neither seem to compete fully against the typical vehicle in either market or segment for now, but as we see, they are taking steps in that direction slowly. This generation RL has really slown down the process. An SH TSX right now would make the TL pointless and any better a TL SH would make the RL obsolete. A new RL will mean the TL can continue to advance and improve, with the TL moving foward that means the TSX can as well.

In other words, revised styling is coming, as is the 6AT, an SH-AWD TSX, and a full sized proper flagship be it another RL or something else. Unfortunately the K23 had fitment issues with this generation TSX but the 3.7L will be fine, not to mention they are working on a new J series with DOHC and direct injection.

winstrolvtec

The TL is a mid level competitor and it isn't. It's actually a tweener for both segments. Many want a large mid sized luxury sedan, where the entry cars just aren't cutting it, but some also have budgets or may not want to spend $60k for a well equipped mid level and don't want to sacrifice size, performance or features in either case. That's where the TL SH comes in.

Typically for the TL SH price you can get a comparably equipped base entry like the A4 2.0T prestige or a 328xi. The problem for some is the lose of size and level of performance. Another option also at that range is a base but stock mid level like a 528 or A6 FWD 3.2L. A nicer luxury product but no features, options and even less performance.

Now not everyone who buys a mid level can automatically afford them fully loaded or the highest trim possible just becuase they are 5 series or E classes, etc. Most sales in any luxury segment are base models with few options and/or packages. Personally, I could have leased a well equipped 535xi 6MT, the only other large mid sized luxury sedan to offer a manual and AWD combo, for around the same money as my TL but I just didn't feel there was a $20k premium warranted for added luxury and missing features in that car and I still financed the TL for cheaper. Combine that with it's typically higher resale value and it's a smarter investment.

Not to say they are not nicer luxury vehicles but that doesn't mean they are the better vehicle for me and my priorities. I still find the TL to be a better value for a large mid sized, high performance oriented, well equipped, luxury sedan.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

Yeah, most of them are locked b/c it's been discussed ad nauseum and the topic usually spirals out of control and turns into an Acura bashing thread.

If this topic can stay on point I'm with Sly and would have no problem leaving it open.

Well written post pickler :thumsbup:

charliemike

Until Acura finds a way to become an aspirational brand, they are always going to be red-headed stepchildren.

This isn't to say that Infiniti IS an aspirational brand but to say that anything Acura is going to give BMW a run for their money is wishful thinking.

The 2001 Acura CL Type-S was a great car (despite being FWD) and competed very well against the E46 330i. It never quite got over the hump but it was definitely a car that you could say was equal in many ways to the BMW.

Four years later the CL is toast and the BMW soldiered on because BMW outsold the Acura like 10:1.

Acura's problem is not that they make crappy cars. They make good cars (the 5-spd auto issues aside). They just don't make cars that people HAVE to have.

pickler

Remember that i said acura is suffering with the exception of its SUVs. The only reason Acura is still 5th in sales of luxury vehicles is because of its SUVs and not because of the TL or the TSX. Acura TL is no longer the top selling model for this company. Instead the MDX is. Acura TL's US sales are down -7.3% and -0.4% on year to date and month to date sales respectively and over 50% lower from 2005! Back in 2005 Acura TL sales topped the c-class, A4, G35, CTS and ES300 with a total of 78,000 TLs sold. 2009 sales were about 30,000 TLs. In Canada, Acura division saw a 12 percent decline to 1,451 for August.This is all while BMW is posting huge gains of +16% in US and +8.3% in Canada.. Sure i still see Acuras around but they are mostly SUVs.

Also i don't agree with the fact that a new TL will make the RL pointless or viceversa. The sales of RL are so little right now that it wouldnt really affect the company to have a new TL. Plus Acura doesn't need to do much to change the TL. Just a new less edgy look should greatly benefit its sales. Look at the RDX and the MDX, a face lift for the 2010 models really made the sales pickup. As for the TSX the looks are ok just needs to change whats under the hood aka K23 engine + SH-AWD and take off the V6 option. So that way if you want a V6 full size sedan go for the TL, if you want a fun to drive smaller vehicle you go for the TSX. This would definitely outgun the A4.

Yumcha

I see plenty of Acura cars on the road over here. TLs, TSXs, MDXs, especially. ZDX, not so much...only seen it twice. And the RL, that's even more rare than seeing an Aston Martin DBS driving around here (which I've seen).

Costco

Yeah, I've probably seen more of the new 5-series (what is it, F10?) more than the TL despite the 5 being more costly and being released much later. Yet, I'm not surprised.

fabrikated

Same here, what gives? Price? Am I the only one who fucking loves the ZDX (minus the price tag)?!

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Price, styling, needs??? Laundry list of items if you ask me. I have yet to see a ZDX on the road here in so cal and have only seen one crosstour to date.

Costco

No, you're not the only one, if you include everyone in the ZDX forum and no one else

fabrikated

What's wrong with the styling! It looks SLICK in person. Just like the Crosstour. Honda seriously needs to make a vehicle that photographs well.

fabrikated

Wait, there's people in the ZDX forum?

Yumcha

One of the few, I think.


The ZDX is indeed a polarizing vehicle in terms of looks. I don't particularly like it.

fabrikated

Agree to disagree?

Ken1997TL

If the current RL had the JDM nose/grill/non-bottleopener front, I'd be interested. Otherwise the lineup does nothing for me. The MDX is nice but too much vehicle for my needs.

charliemike

I think it looks awkward. BMW did a much better job with their 5-series Gran Turismo. That car is a good looking car but even more importantly, it is incredibly well-built with great materials. It looks like it should cost what it does.

And that's pretty much the problem with Honda these days. They have good ideas but can't execute them properly because Yohiro "Homer" Simpson is running whatever decision-making group nickels and dimes the design into something where most people look at it and go "I wonder what they were thinking?"

Costco

ZDX interior is sex. Exterior.... no.

and you like the way the Crosstour looks? To each his own, I guess. I'm pretty sure there are people out there that like Megan Fox's toeumbs.

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

I've seen it in person at dealerships, but haven't seen them on the road.

As Mourning put it, Exterior is meh, but I don't like the interior that much either, but that's a general feeling I have with most, if not all, of the Acura Lineup these days. Too many buttons on the dash and steering wheel. I don't like the control of the navigation with the dial. The dash itself feels like it's a huge desk your sitting at when driving the RDX, MDX and ZDX. The cheap round tubes that encompass the gauges I think is very cheap looking, or at least the way they implemented it.

The first gen TSX is the last Acura that I feel had a good Interior, after that, it's been slowly going downhill. To each their own.

fabrikated

Yep, I really like it, believe it or not. I'd love to see what it would look like with some tasteful mods, but I don't know if anyone has even attempted it.

is300eater

ZDX would be cool with wheels and lowered... still not my first choice tho


btw... to the OP.... aren't you like... a few years late on this? lol

pickler

I always thought of the zdx as a sort of I guess concept? Vehicle? I don't think the looks are apporopiate for 2010. Maybe in 2020 or later it will be fashionable. Plus it doesn't have a lot of torque compared to it's weight, but again I don't like the X6 either.

winstrolvtec

You are not 100% incorrect, it's obvious that Acura sells lots of SUV's in comparison to sedans but as far as US figures go the sedan total is still more than the SUV. As a matter of fact Acura's US sedan total on the year is more than Cadillac's, Audi's, and Infiniti's. To be fair Infiniti has only two sedans but take away the 568 RL's and it makes no difference whatsoever.

The TSX and TL sedans are not really suffering in current markets, at least in the US and the totals prove that Acura has the 4th best selling sedan lineup amongst the major luxury brands but I wouldn't mind seeing the Canadian stats. I don't think they are much different, again as a luxury brand they are third there in total sales.

The difference may just be in our perspectives and demographics, while you point out that Acura is down in Canada and BMW is up in both US and Canada, Acura is up in the US and by a big margin, more than a lot of other companies including BMW and the thing about that is BMW passenger vehicles are up only 4% on the year while their SUV's are up 25%. BMW still sells more cars but the whole SUV thing is really a product of where the market is at right now.

The thing about Acura that needs to be considered is that they have 3 sedans for two segments or markets and while neither the TL or TSX have amazing numbers on their own, combined they make up a huge amount of sedans and sales for Acura and in general. The other thing is that it's a strict sedan and SUV company with the exception of the ZDX maybe. The other thing is they have no coupes, wagons, convertibles, or high end sport or V8 trims and are still successful despite not having that full range of products. So you don't see too many different types of Acura products on the road but Acura still sells a pretty good amount of what they do have.

I agree that the RL sales are so low that it shouldn't matter but unfortunately Acura does not see it that way. The sedan lineup already overlaps and steps on each other's toes as it is. They do really need a new RL or sedan flagship before they can further transition their other sedans. The TSX V6 and FWD TL are nearly the same product and the TL SH is kind of like a base RL. There is barely enough distinction between them right now. Acura probably doesn't want to create even more confusion and the public needs a generation cycle to get used to the transition and market change of these vehicles anyway.

I think a toned down look would benefit the TL as well but not that much since it does well for it's in between niche market already and the current numbers would be excellent for a mid level if they carried over to the MMC and 5G. What's even more confusing is just how much does the style really affect it alone? Looking at the RDX and MDX, their MMC design change got more edgy and controversial if you ask me but their sales went up and a lot.

Regardless, changes are coming but unfotunately not overnight, again I think the K23 is very doubtful for the TSX. In a few years the TSX will probably have the I4,V6, and SH trims and the wagon is ready to go. There is supposed to be another model coming below it so maybe that will affect the 4 cyl trim for the future. The TL will be like the current RL and maybe exclusively SH only. The RL, whatever it's going to be should be a full sized sedan flagship. The A4 is a nice car but I don't think Acura is really worried about it even now. It barely does any better than the current TL or TSX and it has the wagon and S trim.

pickler

well the 2012 honda accord euro concept seems to be featuring a turbocharged 260hp engine which i think is probably the K23:

http://www.motorauthority.com/early-...acura-tsx.html

but those could just rumors and nothing else. plus i never said the sedans sales are lower than the SUV. i said the TL sales are lower than the MDX and they have been cut in half compared to other luxury cars such as the 3 series.

Yumcha

And let's be clear, I love Acura interiors. I think they are fabulous...even better than some of the worshiped German brands.


That being said, it's that darned exterior and that beak.

pickler

oh also i think acura needs a convertible. maybe a sort of coupe TSX convertible?

Moog-Type-S

^^ That chop is uninspiring. Let's hope Acura (if they ever) produce a convertible, that it would be as great or greater than the S2000

Sly Raskal

iTrader: (1)

Costco

Chances are if they ever make a convertible, it'll be offered with a 3.5 V6 probably FWD, with SH-AWD as an option... or not. You're right though..... if they ever make one.

winstrolvtec

I agree, I am just overstating information because it's the internet and many viewers tend to take only a single piece of information and make another reality around it.

Correct, the 4G TL sales are less than 3G TL sales, that's where it is suffering but considering the economy, price and new position and where the TSX is now, it's not bad. The 3 has so many variants that raise it's numbers but from a numbers standpoint they don't publish any sedan figures alone. Like you were saying, Acura needs to soldify the TSX and add more variants like coupes and wagons, etc. Good thing they are working towards that.

The K23 might be a possibility for the next TSX but for this gen, it had fitment issues. They should use it in another application then just the RDX but we'll see. The reason I have my doubts is because back when that rumor was floating around, shortly after Acura came released the TSX V6 with the same type of output so I figure they may just continue that trend at this point but anything is possible.

HondaOnWORKS

I do agree with you on one thing. The Turbo RDX Engine needs to go on the TSX. But the roads fill with G/A4? That's just bias, because it varies on location.... You said your school is full of them. Again location... My school is filled with BMW/Mercedes/Audi. Few Japanese cars here and there. And the JDM cars at my school are mostly Lexus. Maybe its because I go to a Private school (USC). Again, its by location. You can't compare the cars you see at school to what's really out there. #s show that the 2006 Acura TSX sold more than the 2006 IS250. Acura is doing fine.

My hope for Acura is they need to offer the Acura TSX in SH-AWD with the Turbo Engine from the RDX.

Also doesn't matter if Acura still offers 5spd autos. Honda/Acura actually makes one of the best transmissions out. Have you driven the Nissan/Infiniti cars in stick? Its sloppy, grinds gears, and etc...

pickler

it's no just on the roads, sales figures also show Acura is not doing as well as before or as well as BMW. Also I was talking about the 5 speed automatic transmision not the manual. Less than 5% acuras sold are manual so I think it is important for Acura to provide a 6 or 7 speed transmission. Acuras auto has tall gearing to improve fuel economy with the exception of zdx/mdx.

HondaOnWORKS

You can't base this on the road. Like I said, it varies from state to state. City to City. Town to Town. In SF Bay Area, I see a lot of TSXs/IS250s rather than a lot of G35s and BMWs. If we are gonna base this on road.

Besides, Acura is doing fine with the 5speed automatic. Less than 5%? Where do you get these #s from? I'll call bias till you show me proof. From what I see more manuals are being sold than auto for Acura. When I was purchasing my TSX, I went to at least 4 Acura dealerships around the Bay Area, and they all sold out of manuals. Then my dad decided to just buy one for me down at LA area because I was going to school there anyways. When I got my TSX at the LA area; I got the last manual, and rest were auto. From what I experienced your 5% is wrong. I still have no idea how you came up with that #.

Both us are talking opinions, because we are using experience and opinions. I'm too lazy to find the sales # for 2009+ Acura, but 2008 and under. Acura was doing really good. Better than Infiniti, but under Lexus, BMW and Mercedes Benz. Its all on AutoBlog.

Besides the arguing with the sales. I love your choice of buying the 135i. That car is sex, but I prefer 335i, though. Hahah.

dom

Likely because they make FAR less manuals than they do AT's. Any Acura salesman will tell you (Colin has said it many times) that MT sales of the TL and TSX account for 10% or less of total sales.

If MT's sold well, we'd have a an MT version of the V6 TSX and TSX Wagon. We don't because they won't sell in large numbers. John Mendel said as much when they announced that TSX Wagon would be AT only.

HondaOnWORKS

I always thought they made the same amounts for both Auto and Manual. Hmm, interesting.

I wouldn't care if the Wagon is automatic, but the V6 TSX needs a 6 speed and SH-AWD. I actually would have preferred the TSX to have the RDX Engine + 6 speed + SH-AWD. I thought Acura wasn't smart for not offering a manual for the TSX. Like Lexus, not offering a 6 speed for the IS350 =(