Mocoso

Im sure there are a lot of post on this but I figure I would share my recent test drives and impressions. I currently own a 2001 330i and here are my impressions of it:
2001 BMW 330i - Sport/Premium - Fully loaded except for Winter package and NAV - Auto
Pluses: Handling - By far has the best handling in the class or really the best "feel" for the road - mind you this sacrifices some confort specially on mine with sport package
So-so: Engine power - Would love to have the 330 HP of the M3 in my 330i :-)
Minus: Dealer experience/Customer Service/Service Cost (after 45K miles) - Compared to Lexus and Infinity (I dont know about others) BMW dealers just dont stack up - Im talking about the overall service.
Ugly: Quality of windows - They have two serious design flaws which I think they finally fixed in the 04's - the frigin window regulators and plastic door handles (lets not go into my experience with them)

Infinity G35 4 Dr Sedan - equally equiped as 330i
Pluses: Cheapest of the bunch and Sales guy was very friendly....
So-so: Handling - it didnt have sport package so hard to be fair but I ended up causing rear end to slide out which aside from scaring the salesguy basically told me this car is not for me - it compromised handling for ride confort - which is fine just not what I was looking for.
Minus: Styling... its nice but not differentiated enough from the Nissan versions of the car to want me to fork out the extra money for a G35
Ugly: Interior look and feel - its just plain ugly and I know its subjective but it felt very plastic and not very well put together - I disliked it so much it became main reason to drop car from consideration

Acura TL 4 Dr Sedan - Auto
Pluses: A hell of an overall value $$$ wise when compared to others in its class. Its got the looks and interior confort of the BMW at a lower price.
So-so: A-Spec and Air-Effect packages should NOT be dealer options but factory options- Brakes/Tire packages should be available in auto
Minus: Front Wheel Drive (it handled ALMOST as good as the 330i but didnt have the response through steering) and Spoilers should be std. not dealer options.....
Ugly: Cant say I found any -

I an still riding the fence on switching from my 330i to a TL or not... Ive decided to wait a year as there arent enough differences between cars for me to justify expence of switching cars just yet. Besides it will give me time to see how the "first year" run on the car goes and ensure no ugly surprises - Not to mention you cant find TL's - I had to wait 3 days to get a test drive cus dealers were out of them! - Now be nice and give me a reason to switch cars :-)

Keep in mind Im no expert car evaluator... I test drove the G35 an TL and compared them based on "my" impressions to my 330i - they are my opinions and Im sure some of you will disagree - that is fine - Im typing this to give you an opinion and not trying to make statements of facts as to which cars are better - If I didnt have a sport sedan and was in the market for one the TL would be my obvious choice as the price premium on the BMW to me isnt justified

rets

Thanks for your report. 330i and G are truly performance-end vehicles. 04TL is Luxury & Performance sedan. For my preference, I choose TL instead of 330 or G, but they are all good ones.

Eduardo

I am somewhat in your position; but I need an automobile by October of this year. If you can, wait for the 2006 TL which according to urban legend may have AWD in it.

I am debating a 2005 TL or a 2004 330i. What I can not get over is the steering/handling of the TL, it's too light!!! I've been spoiled by the BMW 325i's handling. I see myself going down to San Diego to visit my girlfriend and that's a 2 1/2 hour drive each way; so I need to love what I drive.
The choices, the choices...


On a side note:
Err, that's an unsavoury handle guy.

Aegir

Thank you for taking the time to articulate your impressions so well.

e46m3

Baed on your needs, it is a no brainer, keep your BMW. The overboosted steering of the TL is a show stopper. You'll get a larger and nicer interior though and a functioning Nav with awesome sound system.

Mocoso

Yes Iyou are right - I forgot to mention that the TL interior space is in fact larger and that interior space was what got me started looking in the first place (two car seats in the back get rather cramped on my 330i) - The 330i does have the split folding rear seats AND the ski tote so in a pinch it could carry more cargo.

In reply to the gent who needs car by October... yea decision, decisions, decisions,... let me know what you decide.

Few other comparison items:
BMW: Service included for first 45K (dont let mileage fool you - 45K equates to 3 service visits as car only needs servicing every 15K)
Acura: Not included
In all fairness the included service can be considered "paid up front" and should be considered when comparing prices (its prob. a couple hundred bucks diff though)

I just read the 05 RL will include in the nav system XM based live traffic information & conditions. Curious if they will make it available in the 05 TL

jjsC5

I have now owned a G35 sedan and an 04 TL. I have also driven a 330, and a friend of mine who owns a 330 has driven my G35, and test driven a TL.

The one comment you made that I don't agree with (and neither do any of the magazines) is your comments about the G35 handling. It is considered to have excellent handling. Yes, there have been comments about it's handling when you push it too (and past) it's limits. But I drove mine pretty hard many times (I had 26,000 miles on it when I got rid of it), and never even came close to the back end doing anything wierd.

In terms of a pure performance sedan, the 330 would be my choice, but at about $8,000 more than the other two, I have no interest in it. The G35 is my second choice if performance is most important. For an all around car, I like the TL best so far (only had it two weeks now).

mark_12345

Was in the same situation about 2 months ago... decided to go with '04 330xi.

No regrets. Test drove A4, TL, G35 and 330xi. Price wasn't an issue. Never really considered the G35 as everyone that I know in my family and friends thinks that Nissans chassis/body is "soft" compared to other auto makers. Plus the interior and exterior styling is "odd/strange?" IMHO.

Narrow down the choice to TL and 330xi. When it came down to it, I wanted more of a handling car with the added (safety?) of AWD (w/ rear wheel bias 38/62 split)

The TL is beautiful inside and outside but I think its more of a "cruiser/tourer" then a handling car. When I test drove the TL through the hills where the roads were very curvy, the TL did a fine job but it felt strained (nose heavy?). On the other hand, the 330xi just ate up the curvy roads with ease and then some. The interior of the 330xi is beautiful as well IMHO as its more driver focused. The 330xi exterior is beautiful as well - compact and classic.

For some reason, the image of the TL is for more older folks IMHO. For example my parents are in their 50's. I can see them driving a TL more so then a BMW 3 series (especially in electric red)

Also in my neck of the woods, I see a lot of Asian folks driving either Toyota/Lexus or Honda/Acura, I wanted something different (I too being Azian ). German engineering is pretty cool...

Just my 2 cents...

Aegir

This may be the best 'vs.' thread I've ever seen on this forum. Points for all!

SouthernBoy

My wife has a '96 BMW 328i. It's an automatic which probably reduces it somewhat. But I have to say, my TL is far more fun to drive and quite a bit more powerful which adds to the enjoyment.

Unlike mark_12345's area, the area where I live is just the opposite. The young people here tend to be pretty affluent and do buy BMW's, G35's, TL's, Mustangs, and other such cars. So you're more likely to see a younger person in a new TL than an older one (me being an exception).

I've never driven a 330i or a G35 for that matter. Late last year, I was toying with getting a G35 but because of the problems being seen with the Altima SEs (same engine, different state of tune) I decided to hold off on that one. I am not a fan of BMWs as a rule so the TL seemed to fit my interests pretty well.

Good luck in your continued info hunt.

TL_6SPD

What problems are you talking about with the Altima SE? The VQ doesn't have really any serious or known problems. It is the best v6 engine made.

SouthernBoy

To TL_6spd;

Yes the engine itself is a fine engine. It's whats attached that has been having problems. Clutch, MAF, pre-cats, coil packs.. to name a few. The issue with the pre-cats was the one that pushed me over the edge to buy the TL.

Seems the pre-cat problems started with the 4-cylinder engines, but has progressed to the V6's in earnest. What happens is the pre-cats destruct and clog the main cat resulting in a serious loss of power. Then some of the material debris gets sucked back into the engine and acts like sandpaper on the rings and cylinder walls. If it gets into the oil, it can clog the filter enough that the bypass valve cuts in and lets the oil get by and then its bye-bye to bearings, cam lobes, followers, valve seals, you name it.

My MAF went out on my last March in my SE. Granted I had an after market intake and catback exhaust, but you and I both know there are a host of other cars from other companies whose owners have done the same kinds of mods to and their MAFs tend to be fine.

Clutches are having short lives because of a "howling" sound (??). There are TSBs out on a bunch of these problems, too.

TL_6SPD

The howling noise is the flywheel making noises. My 98 Maxima did this. The MAFs on the FWD VQs seem sensitive. I don't believe the G35/350z have the same maf and same coil packs because no one has reported any problems with those on the forums. Same goes for the precats. I do know that people using RT cats have been destroying them with the VQ 3.5 in the G35 or 350z, they are not holding up. I do know the 6spd Trannys in the G and 350 do have noisy flywheels. Mine was noisy at the beginning, but it has gotten quiet now after the miles.

We have a 03 Altima SL 2.5 with one problem and the 2 recalls it has gone in for recently. It seems to have a loud CLUNK when you turn a hard right and start getting on the gas. It is making it from under the front end. It's at the dealer now and hopefully they find that problem.

neuronbob

I love threads like this one. Everyone is being so civilized, THANK YOU. Mocoso, your opinions are dead on and I appreciate them. I totally agree that the A-Spec should be a FACTORY option. However, even as a dealer option, they are covered under the warranty and so if there are any issues, the dealer should take care of you. The G35 is a great car. I happen to like the exterior look and the performance, but the interior is a show-stopper for me. The TL is definitely the best at being jack-of-all-trades and it is one of the reasons I stuck with it for two generations now. If you're waiting for the first year run to be over, it just ended. Dealers are now, IIRC, taking orders for the first 2005s. Eduardo's point is also head-on. I have complained about the loose steering from the very beginning, nearly ten months ago, with my car. The A-Spec suspension improved that a bit, but it is still present.

Please update us when you've made a decision.

Ron A

This thread is so good that we should close it now before the trolling and bashing start. Just kidding, of course. As my esteemed colleague neuronbob said, thank you all.

And as aegir said, points to all (at least those to whom I can award at this time).

This is what the forum is supposed to be like, informative, knowledgeable, and courteous.

boltjames

The G35 Sedan is a piece of junk.

Take a Nissan Z Coupe and add some luxury? You get the G35 Coupe. Beautiful car.

Take a Nissan Z Coupe and add some luxury while s-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g it to bloated proportions so that you can add two more doors and a whole lot of weight? You get a piece of junk.

The BMW 3 is over-rated. Sure, it's a BMW. But there are more of them on the road than Camry's these days, and you can get a stripper for under $30 or a loaded one for almost $50. Too confusing despite its excellent road manners.

Whew. Glad this thread didn't close before I had a chance to offer up an opinion.

BJ

missmyprelude

When my brother-in-law was looking for a new car, I convinced him to buy a BMW 330i (he actually ended up buying the 330xi) for being the best overall handling car in the class.

When I had to buy a new car, I bought a TL.

Why? I couldn't stand parting with the extra $$$ and getting "less". While I agree that BMW makes perhaps the best handling cars, I don't think they're worth the money. To get a package like the TL (i.e. size, features), I would have had to step into a 5 series that would end up costing $15G to $20G more. Even a comparably equipped 330i is easily $10G more after all is said and done.

If it's my money to spend, I'll take the TL. Someone elses, probably the BMW.

(I looked at the G35 as well and found it to be too "cheap" looking compared to the TL, the shifter wasn't as slick, and I liked the overall TL "package" - looks, feel, etc - better).

TL_6SPD

Wow see the thread was so calm till this noob came in here and ruined it. I won't make any more comments. His immature attitude showed it all.

boltjames

If I cared about status, I'd have gotten the BMW hands down.

If I cared about 0-60 times and twisties, I'd have gotten the G35 hands down. Well, no. I wouldn't touch that piece of junk if it were free....would have gotten the BMW there too.

But since I care about luxury first, tech features second, dependability third, and Andretti fourth, it was TL all the way. Just couldn't see driving a $55,000 BMW 5 to get all the TL offers at $34,000.

BJ

jjsC5

Well, he's not exactly a "noob" here. While I respect well though out opinions...okay, I think "well thought out" speaks for itself.

BJ - you may not like the G35, and you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but calling the G35 a piece of junk is not really a subjective opinion. I had one and put 26,000 miles on it. Mine was not junk. Just for giggles and grins, why don't you explain why you think the G35 is junk!

boltjames

I do not doubt the structural integrity of the car. I'm sure it drives well, I'm sure its durable, I'm sure its fast, and I'm sure its fun to drive.

The G35 sedan has three primary issues: 1. Interior is junk. 2. Exterior is junk. 3. Brand is junk

The interior, as well documented, is more suited to a Ford Focus (with apologies to the Focus) than a luxury sedan. Plastic? Analog clock? That round 'tube' looking thing? The squared aluminum boxy thing? Orange gauges? It's cheap and badly designed.

The exterior, as not often documented, is Frankencar. The Nissan Z is a groundbreaking automobile. Great design. Takes your breath away when you see it for the first time. Add some luxury and you can create the G35 Coupe which is an equally handsome car (excepting the fugly Asian Temple Tail Lamp Pagoda's). But, but but....you can't just carve some clay, plop some doors, add a few grand to the price, and claim you've created a sports sedan that's worthy of comparo's with the 3 Series. Not when you start with a Frankencar as the base from which to build. The thing's a Coupe being puffed into a Sedan. It always works the other way around. Design it as a Sedan first, slim it down sexily as a Coupe. Watch what Acura does with the TL into the CL in the near future.

The brand? Does Infinity even exist any more? You can bash Acura (and rightly so) for losing out to Lexus on the luxury brand index. They stepped up quality and design and status over the past decade to the shame of the Japanese auto makers in the US. But Infinity? That's the one Japanese company Acura still managed to tower over! Now that Acura's back with some exciting and fresh designs, there's even more distance between Acura and Infinity and less distance (finally) between Acura and Lexus. Picking an Infinity is like settling for a Kia when you could have had a Honda.

Again, the thing may handle like a champ, but what's the point when it's cloaked in an ugly coat under a label that no one thinks is in business anymore?

BJ

Mocoso

I do thank all of you for your kind posts - its nice to know my time and effort in providing feedback on my experience with test drives and such wasnt wasted. Ive only been in this forum for a few days but I like what Ive seen so far - no open flame wars and tolerance to people with different tastes, needs, wants, and financial ability. Its nice to hear what people who have or have driven different cars have to say about them. If the TL owner's community is as Ive seen on this thread then hell that may be reason alone to go buy one. As such I politely ask (and dont make me pull out my Ultimate AHole Machine attitude out ) that this thread not get jacked into a "you car sucks" flame war.... I think ALL three cars have merit and which one you pick really comes down to your personal preferences and any of the three will make for a fine car....

boltjames

I disagree with that.

Picking a BMW 3 over a TL is simply saying "well, I can't afford the 5 but I can afford the 3 so I'm going to pick status over value, features, reliability, and common sense and get a smaller and less powerful car in the process".

Picking a G35 Sedan over a TL is simply saying "I really wish it made sense to get that sweet G35 Coupe but with the family I can't so I'll get the next best thing and buy that Frankencar Sedan instead as all my friends will really think I'm driving the Coupe except it just has four doors".

Just about the only car I truly believe is a worthy 'other choice' to the TL is the Accord V6. You keep most of the features and functions and value and lose another $7 large off the sticker price for losing the badge. The Bimmer and the Frankensedan are really just excuses for other cars you wish you could own instead. No need to compromise at $35k.

The TL is the only car in its class that isn't a compromise if you think about it.

BJ

EZZ

FWD isn't a compromise?

indoMFP

I like the 330, it is fun as hell to drive, but the TL is the shit dependabilitywise... I can't believe the TL costs more than the g35.... crazy...

boltjames

You'd be a fool to buy a prop plane when you wanted a jet, right?

You'd be disappointed to take your ski gear to Hawaii in July, right?

You'd be an idiot to come home with a cat when you wanted a dog, right?

No one compromises on FWD. You either want the format or you don't. It's black and white. Where I live and where I travel and how I drive, FWD is perfect. Far safer than RWD in lousy weather. Unlike others, I'm not spewing testasterone out of .35 cent tolls on the Garden State Turnpike or getting the heart rate up by jousting school buses between stop signs on Route 110.

In the real world where real drivers drive real luxury cars to real executive jobs, FWD is a benefit, not a compromise.

BJ

Mocoso

You are entitled to disagree and give yer opinion, just dont hijack my thread disagreeing with every single post. I think you've let your opinion be known. I dont agree with it but no sense in going at it for 101 posts about who's opinion is more correct. Like I asked before: Dont my thread

Ok Ive held my tongue TWICE now... third time is the charm.........

rets

BJ, we all respect your opinions as well as agree you have right to tone. There is a hidden line out there, don't cross it, and don't make us close this used-to-be good thread... :sqnteek:

mark_12345

You see so many BMW 3 Series on the road because the buyers are a bunch of morons?

Come on! People buy 3 Series because they are the best driving cars in their class... period! YOU CAN'T COMPARE FWD vs RWD when it comes to handling.

Some comparisons that make sense...
1) TL vs A4 (FWD platform)
2) 3 Series vs C Class vs G35 --- all RWD platforms
3) TSX vs S40 vs Accord -- all FWD platforms


Yes, the BMW may cost more but you get what you pay for. If you don't agree to that statement, why get the TL @ $35K when you can get a nicely equiped Honda Accord V6 for $28K? Save yourself the $7K!

mark_12345

Originally Posted by boltjames
I disagree with that.

Picking a BMW 3 over a TL is simply saying "well, I can't afford the 5 but I can afford the 3 so I'm going to pick status over value, features, reliability, and common sense and get a smaller and less powerful car in the process".

Common sense??

Save yourself even more money and get the same features, value, and reliability by buying the Honda Accord V6!

TLud

BJ, you've made some good points in this thread, but there are a couple of comments you've made that I disagree with.

First, is your above comment that picking a 3 series over a TL is picking status over value, features, reliability, and common sense and getting a smaller and less powerful car in the process. I picked a 330 coupe over the TL for several reasons, none of which have anything to do with status:

-I decided that I preferred a coupe to the sedan. No Acura coupe right now to consider. If I had to get a sedan, I would have bought the TL over the 330i no question.
-I preferred the smaller size of the 3 series. I've always driven smaller cars and like the way they feel.
-I much preferred the handling and driving dynamics of the 3er.
-While I think the TL offers the best interior in its class and easily the most features, I love the black leather interior of my coupe and the accompanying silver cube trim that comes with the performance package.
-The ergonomics of the 3er are PERFECT like in the TL; everything is exactly where you want it to be.
-I have all the interior features that I could possibly want in my 3er: voice activated bluetooth phone system just like the TL, great HK sound system with 12 speakers, iPOD connectivity, etc.

Yes, I had to compromise on the price and pay about $5k more (I had the A-Spec TL on order), but I got exactly what I wanted, which leads me to my second disagreement with your comments.

You say that the FWD is not a compromise. Every car is a compromise. With the BMW, I paid more than TL or G35 owners. With the G35, you get a cheap looking and feeling interior and a less refined feeling ride. With the TL, it's the FWD.

I'm sorry, but during my numerous test drives, I clearly felt the effects of the FWD. Even during every day kind of driving, it was definitely there. It wasn't just accelerating hard from a stop. I noticed it when coming out of a turn as well. I have to say that I was impressed because I thought it would be a lot worse than it was (absolutely amazing how well the car delivers 270 horses through a FWD platform), but there's no way that you can convince me that you can't feel it in normal driving. If you live in the south where you get no snow, it is a compromise. I "live in the real word and drive a real luxury car to a real executive job," and that's my opinion.

If there was a car that wasn't a compromise in something, we'd all be driving it. It all depends on what you're looking for:

TL: Luxury, features, speed, and great handling in a car with the safety of FWD in bad climates, all at an incredible price.
G35: Incredible handling and performance at an unbeatable price
330: Perfect combination of luxury ride and sports car handling with a very high quality interior

As far as looks, it's all subjective. I personally love the way all three look and would be proud to be seen in any of them.

Whoa, this is a long post. Hopefully, it added something to the discussion.

TL_6SPD

'
Seems to me the immature BJ did hijack your thread already. Too bad his information on what he explained to JJS is so not true its not funny. I will correct him on one thing. The G35 Sedan was built before the coupe. Once the sedan sold well, they made the coupe. It wasn't the other way around.

jjsC5

BJ, if you are such a freekin authority on these cars, then why don't you even know how to spell INFINITI (not Inifinity)?

TL_6SPD

Probably some 16 year old thinking he knows everything.

boltjames

Good post. My thoughts:

The whole concept of comparing a BMW 3 to the TL is, in my opinion, somewhat strange.

The TL is really going after the BMW 5 customer. 40 year old dad with kids, needs four doors, needs a classic sedan, wants a little excitement and sport and technology mixed in. The 3 is really a fallback position for that customer.....a compromise.....you give up size to hit a price that's more comfortable and pick up better handling, RWD, etc. etc.

For you, you were in the Coupe market to begin with so the TL (I guess) was on your list because you viewed it as a larger vehicle than the 3 Coupe at a similar price with better features, value, etc. I don't mean to assume, but there are Coupe people and there are Sedan people. I was a Legend Coupe owner for many years and never even looked at that 'daddy' Sedan. Well, a wife and a few kids later and that Coupe is an impossibility. For you, it's different.

When I discuss the 3 in here, I'm always referring to the Sedan. Just like FWD is a black/white decision over RWD, so is a 2 door vs a 4 door. You either have kids or you don't. You either need the doors or you don't.

Let's break it in two so that we can have a good dialog going forward:

4 Door Conversation:

Acura TL
BMW 5
Infinity G35 Sedan

2 Door Conversation:

Acura TL*
BMW 3 Coupe
Infinity G35 Coupe

It's two completely different discussions, isn't it? I'm the biggest TL fan alive, but I'd choose the G35 Coupe or the 3 Coupe over the TL in a heartbeat if I was in a situation where I didn't have children. Why sacrifice all that sport for two heavy doors? Coupe's rule. Sedans are, well, sort of pedestrian. The TL's the sexiest one, but it's still a Sedan.

Conversely, if you're in the 4 door arena, the 3 is really tiny- even by Sedan standards. The G35 Sedan I've already covered.....it nice, but the TL is just a superior car. No need to go down that road again.

So......the BMW 3 Coupe is a best-in-class vehicle for a small car customer and really cannot be compared to the TL at all. If there was a TL Coupe, then yes. For now, no. If you can accomodate a 3 Coupe in your lifestyle, then the TL is really just a fallback for you....an alternative that's larger at a similar price. It's not a Coupe. It's a Sedan and can't be penalized for being so.

The BMW 3 Sedan is a compromise vs the TL from a standpoint of space/value but if you want a smaller sedan with a sexy badge then I guess that makes sense, but what you really want is a 5 if you think about it.

The BMW 5 Sedan is really the true benchmark vs the TL and in that regard the TL shines through brightly. You couldn't touch a 5 equipped like a TL for under what, $55k? If FWD is not a benefit, then you choose the G35. If FWD is a benefit you choose the TL. If you can afford it, you choose the 5. Anyone with 3 kids would never consider a 3 Sedan. Fact.

The 3 really doesn't enter the picture unless you're a youngester without a family who views it as just a tad more expensive than the TL and infinitely more sporty. For the real TL target audience, the 3 is not even in the equation.

BJ

DopeTL04

The conclusion to a thread like this would be that the G35 is one of the ugliest cars on the road, and no match for the TL!! The 330 is a BMW (Big Money Waste)..... notin more to say about that!

TL OWNES THIS THREAD!! :fingerfawk:

DavePA

Face it, guys. You bought the TL because it has a great butt. Period.

DopeTL04

Not to mention the nice headlights!!

TL_6SPD

You guys should be related to the CLUBSI forums. You all act like kids. I am glad I own the G35, because it is a great car, and the people on the forums are much more mature than this group it seems.

boltjames

.....said the troll who owns a G35 and visits the TL forum to rake up as much trouble as he can.

Pot, meet the black kettle. Oh, and your mother wears army boots.

BJ