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But Honda Corporate said as posted above at a time when the product line was TSX, 4G TL, RL.
Honda corporate said "we will start making Tier 1 products in the future" at that time..it was a future aim.
If they believed they deserved the First Tier recognition that they were not getting by simply cloning a 4G TL coupe & convertible to round out the product line any reasonable thinking person would be forced to conclude that they thought the 4G was a Tier One product.
This is your convoluted assumption....Honda management was very clear on what they meant when they were pursuing Tier 1 status...definitely not with the TSX, the 4G TL...not even the current RL at that time....
The closest things they got is some sort of Frankenstein stretched TSX mule testing a RWD platform for what was supposed to have been a 2011 totally redesigned RL that never materialized...at least this was the this journalist assumption (article is dated June 2008)....the current RLX was evidently a scaled back effort after Tier 1 plans went up in smoke.
Think the words "rightful place" mean something. If its their rightful place then they belong there but are being denied. Are they being denied because they have no product? If they have no product how can they believe its their rightful place to be a Tier One?
Ultimate wannaBism?
Not my words, they are a contemporaneous statement make by Honda execs in 2008 to the dealers.
With a $50k target price and a possible folding hardtop version, the new vehicle will almost certainly occupy a niche spot in the market.
According to the Acura corporate office, this new model is what it will take for Acura to assume its rightful position as a "tier one" luxury brand like BMW or Mercedes. But according to Acura dealers, a new model is needed simply to pep up showroom traffic.
But the NSX will create plenty of buzz before this new whip even arrives, so why go for it? Acura dealers currently sell only three cars and two crossovers, compared to Lexus' four cars, one crossover and two body-on-frame utes. And there are even more models from the true "top tier" luxury brands. But adding two-door and convertible TLs doesn't exactly banish Acura's rep as a seller of tarted-up Accords or launch it anywhere near the German teeth of the market.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 03-09-2016 at 07:23 PM.
It won't impact TLX at all...I am sure Acura is going to do a major refresh for TLX for MMC.
Competition is tough and car companies do everything to stay in the market. Acura wasn't establish yesterday, they understood their mistake and now they care back. Wait and see the new MDX in 2 weeks
Think the words "rightful place" mean something. If its their rightful place then they belong there but are being denied. Are they being denied because they have no product? If they have no product how can they believe its their rightful place to be a Tier One?
Ultimate wannaBism?
Not my words, they are a contemporaneous statement make by Honda execs in 2008 to the dealers.
With a $50k target price and a possible folding hardtop version, the new vehicle will almost certainly occupy a niche spot in the market.
According to the Acura corporate office, this new model is what it will take for Acura to assume its rightful position as a "tier one" luxury brand like BMW or Mercedes. But according to Acura dealers, a new model is needed simply to pep up showroom traffic.
But the NSX will create plenty of buzz before this new whip even arrives, so why go for it? Acura dealers currently sell only three cars and two crossovers, compared to Lexus' four cars, one crossover and two body-on-frame utes. And there are even more models from the true "top tier" luxury brands. But adding two-door and convertible TLs doesn't exactly banish Acura's rep as a seller of tarted-up Accords or launch it anywhere near the German teeth of the market.
Occupy a "niche spot in the market" is very different from being a Tier 1....to clarify, Tier 1 is not related to a specific model but to a brand and Acura did not have even close the model range necessary to be recognized a Tier 1 luxury brand....Audi and Lexus barely and only recently made the cut..
"According to Acura corporate office" does not mean much....I posted very clearly official statements by Honda top management related to Tier 1 plans and products....again to state the Tier 1 plans were shelved because of the 4G sales (which, again and again, was barely 6 months old or so) is truly ridiculous.
Finally, we never saw in real life a 50 grand and a coupe 4G TL anyway so.....
Design itself is part of the reason why the Q50 is more expensive (do you know the difference between an all light alloy double wishbone front suspension and a simple McPherson strut??)....it has gadgets you cannot even get in the TLX, it has better finished interiors, more powerful engines (now MUCH more powerful engines) better tires, better brakes, it rides better....I'm happy for you that you like your TLX but these are the facts....Infiniti took the G37 and pushed it further upmarket where Acura did the opposite with the transition from the TL to the TLX.
Hi, Very agree your point. I do not know why people said TLX is more refined than TL. Acura's marketing people and product manger need to be fired. TLX is fall behind than TL. I drove TLX for 3 days when my TL in service during weekend. TLX is terrible which feels light and cheap on size on interior. most of brands expands the product lines except Acura. I am disappointed cause I am a Honda and Acura fan. I feel bad Acura built the TLX by combing TL and TSX. Actually TSX had very good sale. But Acura killed it.
I am very concerned about regular struct front suspension on TLX. This sucks. My friend's G37 has beautiful alloy double wishbone suspension which is thick and well built. I posted a thread about TL's front suspension which even is double wishbone. but still iron and thin and paint coming off. very very confused about Acura's strategy. they want to save money on their luxurious brand which is silly. to me, the TLX fwd is an Accord needs to fill up premium gas.
J35 is wonderful engine. I like it very much on my TL. But the vq37 on 2015 Q50 and before model is wonderful also. Vq37 is known as smooth, powerful, reliable. So If infinite put sincerity on building their q50 with same wonderful engine and 7 speed transmission with fewer issue, why not go for q50 if you are on market or struggling with TLX or Q50. Q50 is built in Japan.
I love my TL, But disappointed that Acura save money on key part of the car. This is going to destroy the brand, especially a luxury brand.
Again, TLX is only a fancy accord. TLX is using a garbage 9 speed transmission also applied on a garbage car which is chrysler 200 and jeep. this is a silly choice because chrysler 200 is a piece of junk. if you use the same transmission as a brand which is most not reliable, Acura product manager is crazy.
Never accept a sport and luxury sedan with iron struct suspension!!!
Too angry, forgive about my fury on Acura's stupid marketing strategy.
Acura, Please bring back the soul.
I think that Infiniti is really aiming to be tier 1, which Acura has long given up on that goal. Still not sure what they hope to accomplish with the NSX, I don't see it driving many sales throughout the rest of the product line. I think Infinit is stepping up their game on fit and finish and materials, while I agree the TLX is a step back in materials. If I were to rank them
TL 3G > TLX > TL 4G and I would put the Q50 somewhere in the 4G TL fit and finish and quality of materials.
I think that Infiniti is really aiming to be tier 1, which Acura has long given up on that goal. Still not sure what they hope to accomplish with the NSX, I don't see it driving many sales throughout the rest of the product line. I think Infinit is stepping up their game on fit and finish and materials, while I agree the TLX is a step back in materials. If I were to rank them
TL 3G > TLX > TL 4G and I would put the Q50 somewhere in the 4G TL fit and finish and quality of materials.
Comparing my TLX albeit an Advance model with upgraded leather, etc to my Father's FWD 4G, I would flip the 2. I don't notice as much a difference in materials used so much (besides the obvious updates in looks, style etc as time goes on., the biggest differences are in NVH, a smoother ride, and smoother handling which to me, and him lead to a more premium feel.
As far as Tier 1, I don't really put any of these makes being discussed in that class. I would put Lexus in there, but just barely; Cadillac is knocking on the door to get back in again, but to be Tier 1, you need some Tier 1 level vehicles. This end of the pool doesn't really qualify. When you say Tier 1, I immediately jump to S Class, 7 series, A8, CLS, GL, A7, 6 series, etc, etc on the luxury end, and AMG, M, S/RS on the perfomance end.
Without some real representation on those levels, none will ever make a serious attempt at Tier 1 status
For sure Infiniti has better chance of breaking into Tier 1. The 2016 Q50 with RWD and 3 engine choices will affect TLX sales for sure. Acura, on the other hand, not a chance right now to break in Tier 1. They need to release the NSX, and somehow make people aware of the existence of the RLX-SH. I recently had my TL serviced at my local Acura dealership and dang, the sales floor looked like a sad and depressing place.
But for buyers like me, I am fine with that. I want to drive premium vehicles that draw less unwanted attention. Acura fits the bill. I just hope Acura still keeps their reliability and quality as a top priority because I am starting to become more interested in high-end Toyota cars nowadays. Think 4Runner LE, Camry XSE/Avalon.
Acura needs to make SH-AWD standard on all models (maybe except the entry ILX). you just can't justify spending over $40k on a FWD sedan or $45k on a FWD suv.
Acura needs to make SH-AWD standard on all models (maybe except the entry ILX). you just can't justify spending over $40k on a FWD sedan or $45k on a FWD suv.
Agree except for the "$45K on a FWD suv". A lot of people will disagree with you
There's another discussion in Car Talk going on about defining a luxury car, a lot of comments in this thread should go in there...anyway...
Good comments all around. The RDX/MDX are all Acura cares about. The sedans are just fluff. They do a great job keeping the sedans sedate, most likely to keep them cheap to build and cheap to fix since they aren't flooding the market. The money is in the CUV game and they know it.
I can't imagine Acura ever impressing me again with a sedan.
Originally Posted by saturno_v View Post
Design itself is part of the reason why the Q50 is more expensive (do you know the difference between an all light alloy double wishbone front suspension and a simple McPherson strut??)....it has gadgets you cannot even get in the TLX, it has better finished interiors, more powerful engines (now MUCH more powerful engines) better tires, better brakes, it rides better....I'm happy for you that you like your TLX but these are the facts....Infiniti took the G37 and pushed it further upmarket where Acura did the opposite with the transition from the TL to the TLX.
Lot of years disagreeing with you so lets keep the ball rolling. An Infiniti gets a better price because its an Infiniti & has the market presence to command more money for its product than Acura can for the TLX. Material costs are no way the determining factor in a large price spread between two cars.
Most all cars today are high strength steel, & alloy. Metal products are purchased by the pound like hamburger so the material cost of a body in white between two cars that weigh pretty much the same is a wash.
The interior materials will generate a spread but how much is unknown. Nicer leather, soft touch facings, premium feeling switch gear & various electronic do contribute to the spread but their overall impact is unknown to me. That said hanging your hat on brakes, wishbone suspension etc as a big factor is wishful thinking.
As an example these are the major mechanical differences between the Q-60 & the Genesis R-Spec coupe
Q 60S MSRP $46,050 Things it has extra.
Interior Space 92.4 CuFt
12-way power driver's sport seat
Power tilt and telescopic steering column
Infiniti Navigation System[*]
R-Spec Coupe MSRP $29,900 Things it has extra
Interior space 98.8 CuFt 348HP 3.8L GDI DOHC V6 engine
6-speed MT with carbon synchros
Track-tuned suspension and strut brace with low-velocity control dampers Dual-Link MacPherson struts (Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, BMW, Camaro Z/28, Shelby GT350R)
5-link multi-link rear suspension Brembo® braking system Torsen® limited-slip differential
19-inch alloy wheels 225/40YR19 X 245/40YR19 Summer Performance tires
Its very hard to find a MSRP $16,000 advantage in the Q-60's wishbones & outside of its Infiniti image vs a no image car.
Image thing will change as the EX-BMW-M VP of Engineering Albert Biermann, EX-AUDIdesigner Peter Schreyer & from Bentley designer Luc Donckerwolke stamp their mark on the newly separated Genesis Division.
Donckerwolke was responsible for the designs of the Audi R8 Le Mans, as well as the Lamborghini Murcielago and Lamborghini Gallardo.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 03-10-2016 at 12:10 PM.
TL 3G > TLX > TL 4G and I would put the Q50 somewhere in the 4G TL fit and finish and quality of materials.
Keith come on...you come from an A6....and before that an M37S, if I recall correctly...so you know well what fit and finish is....how can you say that the TLX has better fit and finish and quality of material of the 4G?? Absolutely not for me...and for many other current and former 4G owners.
I'm frankly baffled how you could be happy with a TLX coming from a M37S and an A6....
Lot of years disagreeing with you so lets keep the ball rolling. An Infiniti gets a better price because its an Infiniti & has the market presence to command more money for its product than Acura can for the TLX. Material costs are no way the determining factor in a large price spread between two cars.
Most all cars today are high strength steel, & alloy. Metal products are purchased by the pound like hamburger so the material cost of a body in white between two cars that weigh pretty much the same is a wash.
The interior materials will generate a spread but how much is unknown. Nicer leather, soft touch facings, premium feeling switch gear & various electronic do contribute to the spread but their overall impact is unknown to me. That said hanging your hat on brakes, wishbone suspension etc as a big factor is wishful thinking.
As an example these are the major mechanical differences between the Q-60 & the Genesis R-Spec coupe
Q 60S MSRP $46,050 Things it has extra.
Interior Space 92.4 CuFt
12-way power driver's sport seat
Power tilt and telescopic steering column
Infiniti Navigation System[*]
R-Spec Coupe MSRP $29,900 Things it has extra
Interior space 98.8 CuFt 348HP 3.8L GDI DOHC V6 engine
6-speed MT with carbon synchros
Track-tuned suspension and strut brace with low-velocity control dampers Dual-Link MacPherson struts (Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, BMW, Camaro Z/28, Shelby GT350R)
5-link multi-link rear suspension Brembo® braking system Torsen® limited-slip differential
19-inch alloy wheels 225/40YR19 X 245/40YR19 Summer Performance tires
Its very hard to find a MSRP $16,000 advantage in the Q-60's wishbones & outside of its Infiniti image vs a no image car.
Image thing will change as the EX-BMW-M VP of Engineering Albert Biermann, EX-AUDIdesigner Peter Schreyer & from Bentley designer Luc Donckerwolke stamp their mark on the newly separated Genesis Division.
Donckerwolke was responsible for the designs of the Audi R8 Le Mans, as well as the Lamborghini Murcielago and Lamborghini Gallardo.
Bear, as usual, you have reading/comprehension issues....I'm not saying that the entire price gap is justified.....you said it, I said it.....you pay for a brand too, its marketing, positioning, etc....
However there is a percentage of higher cost that comes from objectively better materials/technical solutions.....is not only material costs but also R&D costs, assembly costs, etc...
But, yes, we agree that price gaps between mainstream and premium/luxury brands are not entirely justified by content difference.....I have been saying that for years in this and other forums.
but to be Tier 1, you need some Tier 1 level vehicles. This end of the pool doesn't really qualify. When you say Tier 1, I immediately jump to S Class, 7 series, A8, CLS, GL, A7, 6 series, etc, etc on the luxury end, and AMG, M, S/RS on the perfomance end.
Without some real representation on those levels, none will ever make a serious attempt at Tier 1 status
Mr Hyde...we finally agree 100%.....
To be considered Tier 1 you need at least a large luxury sedan (think S Class) a large GT, nowadays a very high end SUV and an halo supercar/hypercar for good measure.
Yes, Lexus barely makes it......Jaguar and Maserati, for example, are small Tier 1 brands.
Looks like someone has a NEW cross to carry for another 10 years. Kevin, needs to seriously step out to save all those on the Infiniti Q60S forum from wasting all their money. Maybe little Jim Bob can get plates that read TIGER. Paper comes to mind. But still best to spend your retirement typing away on that puppy in the right forum. Excellent stuff..
Have to do something while the paint is drying, adhesive/sealer is setup. I also get tired bending & drilling holes in sheet metal for rivets. Building a revised cold air box for my air filter to live in. Still had some time to put 72 miles on the COYOTE embossed NC 1965 metal plate today. Not counting some Honey Do runs
Nice mid 70*F & bright sun suits a car with no roof. Saw Jim Bob down by the horse farm on the corner. His TIGER plate is plastic & has a Confederate Battle Flag in each corner. Very tacky. But then it suits his jacked F150 4X4 so I guess he is happy with it.
Don't think Q-60 buyers are wasting there money anymore than M4 buyers are wasting theirs. As I said on the BMW 4 series forum about the MT article running the Camaro SS against the M4. The SS is way less expensive than the M4 but both cars have a very similar performance envelope. SS wins all the drag races & the M4 the short road courses & the SS the longer ones.
Think the 2017 SS with the 1LE option pack will also win the short track match up as the current spilt on a short track was part of a second IIRC.
Good to see the US cars competitive with the best in world after years of producing junk. One of the Porsche 911 drivers told me at a meet & greet prior to the Oak Tree Grand Prix @ VIR the only cars they feared in the series were the StingRays.
What I said in the thread was a cars price is not just the sum of its parts + some profit. Its the markets perception of the cars image & how much a person is willing to pay to drive a car with that image.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 03-10-2016 at 05:18 PM.
Keith come on...you come from an A6....and before that an M37S, if I recall correctly...so you know well what fit and finish is....how can you say that the TLX has better fit and finish and quality of material of the 4G?? Absolutely not for me...and for many other current and former 4G owners.
I'm frankly baffled how you could be happy with a TLX coming from a M37S and an A6....
I think you misread my order. I am saying the 4G was better than TLX and followed by the 3G last. And I know because a coworker has a 4G SH-AWD and I often ride with him to lunch. My Infiniti had awesome materials, but fit and finish was probably on par with 4G. My Audi had excellent fit and finish with good materials, but the leather in the Audi was very utilitarian and was nicer quality than 3G and TLX, but was not as luxurious as the 4G or Infiniti.
I'm frankly baffled how you could be happy with a TLX coming from a M37S and an A6....
I am content, I made a financial decision to reduce my payments for now. Happiness is relative, I am happy based on what I paid. I do miss the Infiniti and the Audi, but when I send the payment every month I become more happy with the TLX for now. I am at a point in my life where restructuring my finances as I aim for retirement is more important. I do plan to eventually probably head back to more luxurious trim car in a few years. I actually am intrigued with Caddy CT6 as a possible down the road. Also want to see wher Hyundai heads with their line of Genesis models.
I think you misread my order. I am saying the 4G was better than TLX and followed by the 3G last. And I know because a coworker has a 4G SH-AWD and I often ride with him to lunch. My Infiniti had awesome materials, but fit and finish was probably on par with 4G. My Audi had excellent fit and finish with good materials, but the leather in the Audi was very utilitarian and was nicer quality than 3G and TLX, but was not as luxurious as the 4G or Infiniti.
Ohh ok, I misunderstood then....you wrote:
TL 3G > TLX > TL 4G and I would put the Q50 somewhere in the 4G TL fit and finish and quality of materials.
I am content, I made a financial decision to reduce my payments for now. Happiness is relative, I am happy based on what I paid. I do miss the Infiniti and the Audi, but when I send the payment every month I become more happy with the TLX for now.
Totally understandable and I commend you for that...news cars are like candies for grown up men...hard to resist, you had the willpower to draw the line at some point....
I was very close to pull the trigger on a Charger SRT 392 or an Hellcat few weeks ago...intoxicating engines but I did come to my senses of not trading a car only 1 1/2 years old (my Q50 Sport AWD) and losing a lot of money.....
The S7 (even more, the RS7) make me drool as well as hyper sedans... and I could afford one if I really want to but, again, at some point you have to say enough is enough...
Acura needs to make SH-AWD standard on all models (maybe except the entry ILX). you just can't justify spending over $40k on a FWD sedan or $45k on a FWD suv.
They don't have any $40k FWD vehicles up here in Canada land. The only FWD vehicles they offer here are the ILX and the I4 TLX. Anything with a V6 is SH-AWD.
Bear, as usual, you have reading/comprehension issues....I'm not saying that the entire price gap is justified.....you said it, I said it.....you pay for a brand too, its marketing, positioning, etc.....
No reading comprehension issues, consistently tested in the 98 percentile with 1600 college boards. Was a while back but have not lost more then a step since then.
KEVIN said That said hanging your hat on brakes, wishbone suspension etc as a big factor is wishful thinking.
Once again post where I posted that the WHOLE spread was parts? Think this is the third or fourth time you failed to produce the comment you said I posted:
Back to the video tape: saturno posted:
Design itself is part of the reason why the Q50 is more expensive (do you know the difference between an all light alloy double wishbone front suspension and a simple McPherson strut??)....
You also said:
more powerful engines (now MUCH more powerful engines) better tires, better brakes,
My somewhat diminished comprehension read that as a big brag about how great the Q50S mechanical parts were, even the antiquated double wishbone that the heavy hitter handling players have left behind, was a factor in the Q50S price spread.
I just stated that the mechanical things you elected to point out, of all the things you might have said, are non-players in the price spread because a $29,000 car has in most all cases superior mechanical parts item for item when compared to the Q60S parts.
If the less expensive car has better parts item for item you CANNOT use those same parts to justify ANY part of the price spread.
What I did not bother to say is maybe the new Q60S since its the sport version will step up to first rate sport oriented parts.
All the rest stands - brand cache, product image, design along with this & that plus people will pay more for the car which is the big part of pricing.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 03-10-2016 at 08:01 PM.
My somewhat diminished comprehension read that as a big brag about how great the Q50S mechanical parts were, even the antiquated double wishbone that the heavy hitter handling players have left behind, was a factor in the Q50S price spread.
......exactly, more sophisticated design/parts should require a bit of a premium price....not all of the price gap is related to contents obviously....
Antiquated double wishbone?? What the heck are you talking about Kevin?? Who is abandoning what?? 3 Series and ATS can get away with a strut (a double pivot type to be precise) because of the small dimension and less suspension travel, the Camaro did not have DWB in the previous generation anyway so it did not abandon anything and keep carrying the MacPherson struts (double pivot).
Do you see any big premium midsizer abandoning DWB or front multilink and using MacPherson struts?? definitely not!!!
Again only the smaller 3 Series and ATS use a front strut suspension, all the others use DWB or front multilink including the brand new Jaguar XE and the upcoming Alfa Romeo Giulia.
The next generation 3 Series is rumored to be switching to DWB up front
Do you see any big premium midsizer abandoning DWB or front multilink and using MacPherson struts?? definitely not!!!
Have no idea what mid sized passenger barges use but will check it out if you insist. Might be very hard to find a decent car still on the old style double wishbone. Whoops, just remembered my 1998 Ranger Pickup truck has wishbones, torsion bars & shocks like the Q60S less the torsion bars + coil springs. Put in Ranchero shocks for off road.
One good turner on tight courses is the Double Wishbone Miata.
The dual pivot AKA multi-Link, Twin Link & so on McPherson strut(Dual pivot technology was Patented by BMW in the late seventies and applied to the E23 7-Series {there's a fatty for you} and many subsequent BMW cars) has been adopted by the world class turners & burners. Cars that can do 200MPH & have the best designed handling packages currently available in the world.
Likewise in my example we are talking about the Q60S a performance coupe with the same Double Wishbone package less the torsion bars + coil springs ad my Ranger 4X4 vs a very inexpensive sports coupe with dual pivot McPherson struts.
The Turners & Burners that have gone to dual pivot McPherson struts include Porsche 911 GT3R, Cayman R, Boxer GTS, Ferrari, Lamborghini, BMW M4, M5 Camaro SS, Shelby 350GT-R, Nissan GT-R, Genesis Coupe R-Spec (not world class but I had to stick it in) & the list goes on like the fatty MB S-Class shown below.
The MB S-Class struts are chunky Devils
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 03-11-2016 at 01:03 AM.
Have no idea what mid sized passenger barges use but will check it out if you insist. Might be very hard to find a decent car still on the old style double wishbone. Whoops, just remembered my 1998 Ranger Pickup truck has wishbones, torsion bars & shocks like the Q60S less the torsion bars + coil springs. Put in Ranchero shocks for off road.
One good turner on tight courses is the Double Wishbone Miata.
The dual pivot AKA multi-Link, Twin Link & so on McPherson strut(Dual pivot technology was Patented by BMW in the late seventies and applied to the E23 7-Series {there's a fatty for you} and many subsequent BMW cars) has been adopted by the world class turners & burners. Cars that can do 200MPH & have the best designed handling packages currently available in the world.
Likewise in my example we are talking about the Q60S a performance coupe with the same Double Wishbone package less the torsion bars + coil springs ad my Ranger 4X4 vs a very inexpensive sports coupe with dual pivot McPherson struts.
The Turners & Burners that have gone to dual pivot McPherson struts include Porsche 911 GT3R, Cayman R, Boxer GTS, Ferrari, Lamborghini, BMW M4, M5 Camaro SS, Shelby 350GT-R, Nissan GT-R, Genesis Coupe R-Spec (not world class but I had to stick it in) & the list goes on like the fatty MB S-Class shown below.
The MB S-Class struts are chunky Devils
My goodness Kevin you make such confusion.....
1) Dual Pivot struts have nothing to do with multilink....zero...
2) The S Class setup image you posted use DWB...very clear in the pic.
3) All premium midsizers use wishbones up front all the way to supercars.....sometimes instead of wishbones, 4 link multilink are used...do you even know why a double wishbone is a superior setup compare to a MacPherson strut??
4) I do not know what you mean by "old style wishbone"....there is not such thing as "old style wishbone"...there are low height wishbones, usually used on sports/hyper cars and high wishbones usually used in touring cars...some wishbones use a dual pivot arrangement as well for the steering (for example some Mercedes models and the Chrysler LX based cars
The Turners & Burners that have gone to dual pivot McPherson struts include Porsche 911 GT3R, Cayman R, Boxer GTS, Ferrari, Lamborghini, BMW M4, M5 Camaro SS, Shelby 350GT-R, Nissan GT-R, Genesis Coupe R-Spec (not world class but I had to stick it in) & the list goes on like the fatty MB S-Class shown below.
The MB S-Class struts are chunky Devils
Absolutely incorrect...the GT-R and the M5 use DWB.
Basically only the 911 is the only serious expensive sports car that uses struts up front.
No Ferrari, Lambo, Vette or any other exotic use MacPherson struts
DWB and multilink (4 or more) are generally the most sophisticated suspension in the automotive world
Kevin, I hope these pics help clear the confusion for you...dual pivot has nothing to do with multilink.
This is a 2009 Dodge Challenger....Double Wishbone front suspension with a dual pivot steering knuckle arrangement.
Interesting, guess the high performance strut tower brace in the 2016 Hellcat is a waste of money then, since you say it has no struts.
Front Strut Tower Brace 2005-2016 Challenger/Charger Speedlogix Price: $299.88
Its the yellow thingie in the picture. MOPAR also selles a high performance factory replacement strut tower brace for the SR8 its part number Part # P5155950 @ $255.00
FWIW you can also by original equipment Challanger 392 MOPAR front struts from them. What is strange is the right side costs MSRP $224 while the left is MSRP $249.
Nice Photos BTW did you draw the neat little arrows all by yourself?
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 03-11-2016 at 11:23 AM.
2) The S Class setup image you posted use DWB...very clear in the pic
.
The Strut is right in the middle of it. The picture is not showing an old style DWB with a separate spring & shock. The old style double wishbones separate spring & shock are going out & will continue to be replaced with multi link & Dual Pivot Strut based units..
BTW the MB piece in the picture is a true strut just like the Dodge & not a simple coil over which looks similar but attaches differently to the suspension.
I built the Cobra suspension with fabricated double A arms (another form of wishbone that give way more adjustability) and Coil Overs. For a home builder thay are easier to manage, set-up & have less chassis structural requirements than Struts. So they do have their place.
Sorry for the Spam multi posts, am working on something that has time limits.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 03-11-2016 at 12:28 PM.
Banished to the valley of death from the TLX forum.
Since we are now dying in the desert will talk about partial payback. One of the more childish but fun things some of the guy do.
I would never ever do this, heard about it through the grape vine. Hey that would be a good name for a song!!
Running close to a string of parked card either at the curb or more fun, so I have been told in a parking garage, at about 3,000RPM will set off every car alarm within 5 yards of the car. In a parking garage the range picks up considerably.
Today I rolled the car back out of the garage on gravity. Got outside & cinched up the 5 point harness. Started the car & gave it a quick throttle pulse to clear it. The 2 cars, 2 SUV's & the pickup showed their displeasure at me being in the upstart that gets all the attention with loud horns & flashing lights.
This forced me to shut down unstrap go in the house & search for a whole mess of remotes with no idea where the family, who were not home, left them.
Since they are alarms the two sheepdogs also got into the act telling me very loudly there was something wrong outside & they needed to go out to check & see.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 03-11-2016 at 02:25 PM.
You do realize that the white arrow is pointing to a strut not a shock?
No, you do not understand the difference between a strut suspension and a shock and spring tower element.
A strut suspension is when the spring and shock is an integral part of the geometry of the suspension system...with a DWB setup (a.k.a. lower and upper control arm suspension) the shock and spring it's just the elastic and damping element.
Let me be even more clear:
This is a strut stype suspension (MacPherson)
If you take the spring and shock away with their carrier base (the strut) you lose a suspension geometry element....that is a strut type suspension.
This is a Double Wishbone
You can replace the shock and spring with a traverse leaf spring (Corvette for example) and an angled shock......the suspension geometry is unaffected.
Maybe in spare parts lingo the term "strut" it's used to refer to any spring/shock tower but it is definitely incorrect.
Your Cobra has a DWB suspension (a low mount type) period, not a strut suspension.
There is nothing "old style" in having a separate spring from shock assembly....it's the designer choice and packaging constraints....touring cars usually have a high mount DWB arrangement with shock and spring together for packaging efficiency....so is the Q50
When you have a dual pivot steering knuckle arrangement you do not have technically/physically a lower wishbone in one piece but two links attached to the steering knuckle...sometimes physically the lower wishbone it's just a "T" shaped lower arm (Jeep Grand Cherokee for example) hence the alternative term (lower and upper control arm or short and long arm) defining this type of suspension.
Multilink originally defined clearly the 5 links rear suspension patented by Mercedes for the W201 sedan in 1982 and then pretty much universally copied by every premium car manufacturer in the world.
The purpose of a multilink arrangement is to accurately control every degree of freedom (DOF) a wheel have in the system during suspension travel...it does even a better job than a DWB setup when used at the rear end and the designer has more freedom to locate and shape the linking elements to accommodate packaging constraints.
Some manufacturers use multilink up front as well instead of a DWB setup (for example Audi or Hyundai with the Genesis sedan) but in the front you do not need 5 elements but only 4, because the fifth degree is controlled by the steering.
It's common nowadays to have 4 links (or sometimes 4 1/2 links) multilink suspension even at the rear end, they often do as a good of a job (or almost as a good) as a 5 links saving weight.
The term multilink has been often abused by marketers.....for example Pontiac called in some literature a "multilink suspension" the rear MacPherson strut suspension of the W body based sedans, just because it had two parallel links replacing the lower traverse arm.
A DWB or multilink setup is usually superior also in ride characteristic, especially in touring cars where the suspension travel can be substantial......pretty much every premium sedan and high end GT in the world use a DWB up front (or rarely a 4 link multilink) and a 5 or 4 link setup in the back. Only the small Cadillac ATS and 3/4 Series use a MacPherson strut in the front with the 3/4 Series rumored to switch to a DWB setup in the next generation.
Finally, a dual pivot steering knuckle arrangement can be used in any suspension setup, MacPherson strut, DWB or multilink.
The Challenger and Charger Hellcat, being LX based cars, have a DWB setup up front and a 5 link rear suspension
I love my RLX, thanks for asking and your concern!
The Q50 had nothing to do with my dumping the TLX, so what's your point here? Oh, right, you don't have one. You haven't been here long enough to know I am just messin with Saturno with my Altima comparo, but don't let that stop you.
Didn't read every single post but the Q50 is far superior to the TLX imo. I have a fully loaded hybrid sport and I'm happy I went with DAS as the non DAS Q50 feels like just any other car on the road.
I love my RLX, thanks for asking and your concern!
The Q50 had nothing to do with my dumping the TLX, so what's your point here? Oh, right, you don't have one. You haven't been here long enough to know I am just messin with Saturno with my Altima comparo, but don't let that stop you.
Carry on
I take it, the 6 speed of your current RLX is getting along better than the 9 speed of your previous TLX? Good to know.
03-09-2016, 05:30 PM
Not bad for 23 posts though, you'll get there.
from the TLX forum.
