Is 2016 Infiniti Q50 be a TLX killer?
03-07-2016, 11:06 AM
#41
Team Owner
Mr Hyde, I completely agree with your sentiments.
I don't see the q50 killing the TLX- but i think it puts the pressure on Acura to sell a Type S model. Even with the 3G Type S, the many who had a base were salivating for the higher, slightly more powerful model. The 400hp q50 will do the same. And the TLX-S would do the same.
I'd be shocked if a Type S never comes out. At this point, I think it's just a matter of when.
As cool as a 400hp q50 is, I just don't see people selling the TLX and ponying up way more money to move in to it. Some might. Many won't. If that was the case, I'd say many wouldn't have bought the TLX in the first place, and seeing as Acura is selling about 40k units a year, well, the TLX isn't going anywhere.
I don't see the q50 killing the TLX- but i think it puts the pressure on Acura to sell a Type S model. Even with the 3G Type S, the many who had a base were salivating for the higher, slightly more powerful model. The 400hp q50 will do the same. And the TLX-S would do the same.
I'd be shocked if a Type S never comes out. At this point, I think it's just a matter of when.
As cool as a 400hp q50 is, I just don't see people selling the TLX and ponying up way more money to move in to it. Some might. Many won't. If that was the case, I'd say many wouldn't have bought the TLX in the first place, and seeing as Acura is selling about 40k units a year, well, the TLX isn't going anywhere.
03-07-2016, 11:31 AM
#42
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Opinion: You know what they say about them. 
I don't think the Maxima is a direct competitor to the TLX.
Its more than just specs, lots of cars will spec in the same general area & some will spec better regardless of price.
Its about how the car is presented by the manufacturer & where they choose to sell it.
Like it or not the Acura brand is considered the Honda upscale brand & Infiniti the Nissan lux flavor.
The Maxima may spec well but its still a Nissan & not an Infiniti. Same with Toyota. A ES is a Lexus & not a Toyota Avalon.
Hyundai finally broke the code & is splitting Genesis off as a unique Lux brand.
In auto marketing perception has always been the reality not the raw specs.
Bob Lutz framed it very well when he was talking about all the bells & whistles available on very inexpensive cars is totally blurring the reality of what is a luxury car.
At the top end there is a very real difference in how they are built, watch How its Made Supercar Builds, but the pure functionality is quite leveled out.
Just look at the Corvette ZL-1 second place finish (1/2 a second behind) to the $1,000.000 Porsche 918 Spyder in the 4.1 mile VIR Lightning Laps all time historical list.
I don't think the Maxima is a direct competitor to the TLX.Its more than just specs, lots of cars will spec in the same general area & some will spec better regardless of price.
Its about how the car is presented by the manufacturer & where they choose to sell it.
Like it or not the Acura brand is considered the Honda upscale brand & Infiniti the Nissan lux flavor.
The Maxima may spec well but its still a Nissan & not an Infiniti. Same with Toyota. A ES is a Lexus & not a Toyota Avalon.
Hyundai finally broke the code & is splitting Genesis off as a unique Lux brand.
In auto marketing perception has always been the reality not the raw specs.
Bob Lutz framed it very well when he was talking about all the bells & whistles available on very inexpensive cars is totally blurring the reality of what is a luxury car.
At the top end there is a very real difference in how they are built, watch How its Made Supercar Builds, but the pure functionality is quite leveled out.
Just look at the Corvette ZL-1 second place finish (1/2 a second behind) to the $1,000.000 Porsche 918 Spyder in the 4.1 mile VIR Lightning Laps all time historical list.
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03-07-2016, 11:32 AM
#43
Burning Brakes
I agree that Infiniti would not care so much about Acura TLX at this point. The Q50/60 are more refined than the G they replace. What was missing from the initial launch was the lack of new engines and buggy InTouch. I drove a G37 for 3 years and my complaints were road noise and cheap interior. Q50 has improved in those areas.
Woa, with the new 400hp TT engine, it's meant to complete with the Germans rather than Acura IMO. The new Q60 is so sexy. A proper 4-series fighter for sure.
I myself would opt for the 300hp option and chip it after a year or 2.
Woa, with the new 400hp TT engine, it's meant to complete with the Germans rather than Acura IMO. The new Q60 is so sexy. A proper 4-series fighter for sure.
I myself would opt for the 300hp option and chip it after a year or 2.
03-07-2016, 11:38 AM
#44
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I agree that Infiniti would not care so much about Acura TLX at this point. The Q50/60 are more refined than the G they replace. What was missing from the initial launch was the lack of new engines and buggy InTouch. I drove a G37 for 3 years and my complaints were road noise and cheap interior. Q50 has improved in those areas.
Woa, with the new 400hp TT engine, it's meant to complete with the Germans rather than Acura IMO. The new Q60 is so sexy. A proper 4-series fighter for sure.
I myself would opt for the 300hp option and chip it after a year or 2.
Woa, with the new 400hp TT engine, it's meant to complete with the Germans rather than Acura IMO. The new Q60 is so sexy. A proper 4-series fighter for sure.
I myself would opt for the 300hp option and chip it after a year or 2.
03-07-2016, 11:45 AM
#45
Burning Brakes
03-07-2016, 12:06 PM
#47
I agree with this completely.
But just like a lot of cars in that 30-40k range the word "compete" can mean many things. I, personally, think competition is when you cross shop something. I know for myself before choosing the TLX I cross shopped between a fully loaded Mazda 6 GT tech on the low side to a Genesis Tech package and CPO 528i Sport on the high side. I'm not saying any of those are direct competitors to a TLX. However I found myself, when narrowing down to more similar cars, and those ended up being TLX, Maxima, Q50, and to a lesser extent an A4 2.0t Quattro.
Ultimately the TLX, just like the 4G TL before it is in a slightly odd position of not TRULY having direct competition. When you think 3 Series competition immediately you'll think of, A4, C Class, Jag XE, ATS. They are all smallish sport sedans. The old G35/7 used to be in this group too, and to some extent the TLX and the Q50 still trickle into this segment as slightly larger options with great value (value being more TLX than Q).
But just like a lot of cars in that 30-40k range the word "compete" can mean many things. I, personally, think competition is when you cross shop something. I know for myself before choosing the TLX I cross shopped between a fully loaded Mazda 6 GT tech on the low side to a Genesis Tech package and CPO 528i Sport on the high side. I'm not saying any of those are direct competitors to a TLX. However I found myself, when narrowing down to more similar cars, and those ended up being TLX, Maxima, Q50, and to a lesser extent an A4 2.0t Quattro.
Ultimately the TLX, just like the 4G TL before it is in a slightly odd position of not TRULY having direct competition. When you think 3 Series competition immediately you'll think of, A4, C Class, Jag XE, ATS. They are all smallish sport sedans. The old G35/7 used to be in this group too, and to some extent the TLX and the Q50 still trickle into this segment as slightly larger options with great value (value being more TLX than Q).
03-07-2016, 12:41 PM
#48
I don't think the TLX is a "bad" car per se, but it and Acura's for, that matter, are more of premium appliances. I don't see them competing with BMW, Audi, MB, Lexus, or this updated Q50. Though, I have no statical data to back up this assertion, I would imagine the majority of TLX buyers are former Acura/Honda or mainstream car drivers, that appreciate monetary "value" most. For them Acura is their brand. I expect and expected more, when the TLX was released.
Acura, Infiniti Not Conceding North America to Lexus | Industry content from WardsAuto
Acura, Infiniti Not Conceding North America to Lexus | Industry content from WardsAuto
03-07-2016, 12:59 PM
#49
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I think the TLX is now a bit dated in its segment...and would need some more aggressive incentives to get them moving.
The Q50 before the engine upgrade would already beat the TLX V6. With the new 400hp engine, it will kill it in any acceleration for sure. But then, I'd think the 400hp Q50 will be quite a bit more expensive than a $35k V6 TLX or $39k V6 TLX AWD.
With BMW upgrading the 335i to 340i, MB launching C450 AMG, Infiniti upgrading the Q50, I do hope Acura has a more powerful variant of the TLX.
The Q50 before the engine upgrade would already beat the TLX V6. With the new 400hp engine, it will kill it in any acceleration for sure. But then, I'd think the 400hp Q50 will be quite a bit more expensive than a $35k V6 TLX or $39k V6 TLX AWD.
With BMW upgrading the 335i to 340i, MB launching C450 AMG, Infiniti upgrading the Q50, I do hope Acura has a more powerful variant of the TLX.
03-07-2016, 01:49 PM
#50
Burning Brakes
03-07-2016, 01:52 PM
#51
@Saturno_V, have you driven a charger? I'm not hating on Chargers, I think they have a cool aggressive look, and there certainly is a market for large american cars especially on RWD platforms (competition mostly is against large car category though, ranging from Accords, to the step up model Charger that competes against Avalons and Maximas, to the performance models that can compete against the Chevy SS and a few other cars). But having driven 2 of them, both 2013 or newer models, the build quality and refinement is abysmal if you're comparing to anything TLX/Q50 or higher. It's one thing to say this car performs better than that car, but that's just one aspect of the car. A Charger RT will outperform a BMW 535, but that doesn't mean it's a "better" overall car. Depends on what "metric" is most important for you. If you want cheap performance in a large car then a high end Charger is very enticing.
Go to your closest Dodge dealer and test drive a nicely optioned RT Road and Track or, if you want to stick to a V6 engine, a SXT Rallye...I'm not talking about Scat Pack or SRT.....and report back.....it rides extremely well, it handles very well, it is quiet and refined, a world class transmission, 3 types of leather to choose from, full of tech toys and fit and finish, while not top notch, is fairly up there in this new iteration. It has a more sophisticated suspension setup than a TLX and it shows on the road clearly...interesting that I made exactly the same point about cross-shopping a Charger RT instead of a 328i on the Bimmerfest forum and many people get the comparison, the ones that actually rode in a new Charger but here in Acura land "How you dare comparing a Charger to a TLX"???
After the Charger comments, I won't indulge the troll any longer. Waste of time,
Bob Lutz framed it very well when he was talking about all the bells & whistles available on very inexpensive cars is totally blurring the reality of what is a luxury car.
At the top end there is a very real difference in how they are built, watch How its Made Supercar Builds, but the pure functionality is quite leveled out.
At the top end there is a very real difference in how they are built, watch How its Made Supercar Builds, but the pure functionality is quite leveled out.
The Maxima is much more refined and sporty than a V6 Camry....for example magazines keep mentioning the Maxima and the Avalon in the large car category...they are EPA midsize not large.
I agree with this completely.
But just like a lot of cars in that 30-40k range the word "compete" can mean many things. I, personally, think competition is when you cross shop something. I know for myself before choosing the TLX I cross shopped between a fully loaded Mazda 6 GT tech on the low side to a Genesis Tech package and CPO 528i Sport on the high side. I'm not saying any of those are direct competitors to a TLX. However I found myself, when narrowing down to more similar cars, and those ended up being TLX, Maxima, Q50, and to a lesser extent an A4 2.0t Quattro.
But just like a lot of cars in that 30-40k range the word "compete" can mean many things. I, personally, think competition is when you cross shop something. I know for myself before choosing the TLX I cross shopped between a fully loaded Mazda 6 GT tech on the low side to a Genesis Tech package and CPO 528i Sport on the high side. I'm not saying any of those are direct competitors to a TLX. However I found myself, when narrowing down to more similar cars, and those ended up being TLX, Maxima, Q50, and to a lesser extent an A4 2.0t Quattro.
Last edited by saturno_v; 03-07-2016 at 02:04 PM.
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Monte TLS,MAX (03-07-2016)
03-07-2016, 02:02 PM
#52
I don't think the TLX is a "bad" car per se, but it and Acura's for, that matter, are more of premium appliances. I don't see them competing with BMW, Audi, MB, Lexus, or this updated Q50. Though, I have no statical data to back up this assertion, I would imagine the majority of TLX buyers are former Acura/Honda or mainstream car drivers, that appreciate monetary "value" most. For them Acura is their brand. I expect and expected more, when the TLX was released.
Acura, Infiniti Not Conceding North America to Lexus | Industry content from WardsAuto
Acura, Infiniti Not Conceding North America to Lexus | Industry content from WardsAuto
Infiniti did its share of mistakes...killing the Q50 Eau Rouge after the fanfare and media presentation was idiotic.
03-07-2016, 05:52 PM
#53
Banned
Lol @ that Q50 owner who trolls here.
I went to the Infiniti dealer since I liked the exterior styling. I quickly got out when I saw that ugly thing close. No different than all the other kitsch Nissan products.
I went to the Infiniti dealer since I liked the exterior styling. I quickly got out when I saw that ugly thing close. No different than all the other kitsch Nissan products.
03-07-2016, 08:00 PM
#56
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Bear we are saying the same thing...you just sugarcoating it......no matter how the car is presented to the public, cross shopping between a TLX and a Maxima I bet is more common than between a TLX and a 335i...companies can say whatever they want. People do not think in a box.......
Lutz was talking about how the Luxury cars remain luxury cars in the publics eyes when everybody has a moon-roof, nav, lane control & rear end collision negation, top end entertainment systems & leather seats.
Maxima has never made that jump its still a value bang for the buck product. Like a lot of value cars they market against the prestige brands but their not COMPETING against them. They are showing what a great value they are that you don't have to spend premium money for. Its not the same thing at all.
A guy buys the Maxima & feels good about his buy. The MB buyer does not really look down market to the Maxima. End of the day everybody is happy. Well most everybody.
There is always going to be the group the just overlaps. The do I get the TLX or a less well equipped 320. They are the exception to the rule not the target population.
Take two circles slide the slightly together & you get a small slice in the middle that has parts of both circles in it. That the slice you are trying to say is the mainstream who think that the TLX & Maxima are straight up competitors.
You can't equate car oriented people on these web sites with the mainstream buyers.
Funny thing popped into my mind. When I lived in England I had a 4.0 V8 Jaguar Sovereign 4 door. Had occasions to drive one of my guys to some customer visits. He really liked the Jag & I let him drive on occasion.
Asked him why he did not get one, I paid him more than enough to afford it. His answer was "Oh I could never do that its a rich mans car". Think about it - where he lived, who his friends were "the lads" was part of his frame of reference on what to buy.
Its not so sharply defined here but it still exists in the "he's just showing off with that car". How many time has it been posted here, sometimes by you, that anyone can afford a specific lux brand all they have to do is lease it.
But at the end of the day they don't do it. Why is that if all these cars compete with each other?
Hey at the time I bought the FORD Expedition it had more Luxury features than Acura offered in the RL. But it was still a big butt mainstream branded truck.
A Maxima has never been on my radar despite the fact I had a 1981 280ZX convertible well into the 2000's. Was great little car. On convertible friendly days it did my commute in place of the StingRay.
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03-07-2016, 08:45 PM
#57
I'm almost a year and a half into my lease and I'm already starting to think what I will replace my TLX with.
If they dont release Type-S with 400 hp to match, I'm gone. New poweful engine and tranny is a must. The 9 speed is a POS.
Just getting tired of Acura dragging it's feet. If they keep this up I can see Hyundai Genesis just taking their market....
If they dont release Type-S with 400 hp to match, I'm gone. New poweful engine and tranny is a must. The 9 speed is a POS.
Just getting tired of Acura dragging it's feet. If they keep this up I can see Hyundai Genesis just taking their market....
03-07-2016, 08:58 PM
#58
No we are not. Your talking about stuff in a car & I am talking about image, presentation & how much someone will pay for it (prestige) over a car that has the same stuff in it.
Lutz was talking about how the Luxury cars remain luxury cars in the publics eyes when everybody has a moon-roof, nav, lane control & rear end collision negation, top end entertainment systems & leather seats.
Lutz was talking about how the Luxury cars remain luxury cars in the publics eyes when everybody has a moon-roof, nav, lane control & rear end collision negation, top end entertainment systems & leather seats.
The Maxima, as was reminded over and over in the 4G section (remember these discussions?? I bet you do) has always been considered a competitor to the TL at least from the 5th generation.
Bear, put down the polemic hat down, I know you are technically knowledgeable so you can follow me....the Maxima has exactly the same Altima wheelbase (and the identical to the Accord and TLX)...it's just 2 inches longer than the TLX and it is a midsize car.
So where you slot it?? It is not a Camry/Accord/Altima competitor.....it's based on the Altima platform with more refined interiors and upgraded suspension setup and with a tricked-up dynamic settings (Active Ride Control and Active Trace Control, some sort of passive Torque Vectoring)...does that sound familiar??
Furthermore, Mike Drongowski, Product Planning Manager for the Maxima, has already said that AWD for the Maxima is in the cards....
Link: https://www.cars.com/articles/nissan...1420680875402/
Finally, coup de grace for your logic...this is what Nissan sees among their official competitors for the Maxima in their web site.......drumroll.....the Acura TLX is there my friend...no BMW, no Mercedes, no Audi, no Infiniti, no Lexus. ..even pricing basically totally overlap between these two.
Link: Nissan Compare | Nissan USA
Even the Avalon (which is still a midsize car) has a longer wheelbase than the Camry.
Maxima has never made that jump its still a value bang for the buck product.
...so do you consider the current Hyundai Genesis less of a luxury car than a TLX??!!
Last edited by saturno_v; 03-07-2016 at 09:06 PM.
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Monte TLS,MAX (03-08-2016)
03-08-2016, 09:05 AM
#59
@E90 Skye Have you driven a 2015 Charger?? I guess not...and I'm not talking about the rent special SE trim (which is already fairly impressive at 27K)
Go to your closest Dodge dealer and test drive a nicely optioned RT Road and Track or, if you want to stick to a V6 engine, a SXT Rallye...I'm not talking about Scat Pack or SRT.....and report back.....it rides extremely well, it handles very well, it is quiet and refined, a world class transmission, 3 types of leather to choose from, full of tech toys and fit and finish, while not top notch, is fairly up there in this new iteration. It has a more sophisticated suspension setup than a TLX and it shows on the road clearly...interesting that I made exactly the same point about cross-shopping a Charger RT instead of a 328i on the Bimmerfest forum and many people get the comparison, the ones that actually rode in a new Charger but here in Acura land "How you dare comparing a Charger to a TLX"???
You saying exactly what I'm saying...
Go to your closest Dodge dealer and test drive a nicely optioned RT Road and Track or, if you want to stick to a V6 engine, a SXT Rallye...I'm not talking about Scat Pack or SRT.....and report back.....it rides extremely well, it handles very well, it is quiet and refined, a world class transmission, 3 types of leather to choose from, full of tech toys and fit and finish, while not top notch, is fairly up there in this new iteration. It has a more sophisticated suspension setup than a TLX and it shows on the road clearly...interesting that I made exactly the same point about cross-shopping a Charger RT instead of a 328i on the Bimmerfest forum and many people get the comparison, the ones that actually rode in a new Charger but here in Acura land "How you dare comparing a Charger to a TLX"???
You saying exactly what I'm saying...
and Yes I've driven a 2015 SXT AWD and a 2013 SXT (a buddy of mine had a 2013 and traded it in for a 2015). and NO it does not match the refinement of the TLX, Q50, A4, Lexus ES/IS, 3 Series, MB C class, or even Maxima.
It's not a bad car by any means. But if you think it matches the refinement then your definition of refinement is different than everyone else's. Like I said before, if you want performance in a large car for low cost then Charger is a good option. But frankly I would pick any of the other major american car manufacturers over a Chrysler product if I'm keeping it for more than 3 years, my one exception to this rule is a Jeep Grand Cherokee.
and you're arguements don't make sense on a TLX forum. Obviously people here bought the TLX b/c they liked something about it more than the other cars they drove. Before this TLX the only Acura I've had is a 2013 MDX Tech that my wife now drives. So I'm not an Acura fanboy or anything, frankly I was trying to avoid buying another Acura, but ultimately for the price I wanted to spend the TLX checked off the most important boxes on my list of desires for a family sedan, end of story.
Telling people here that a charger is way better, you should have bought a charger, is like telling someone who just bought a Ford Explorer that a Toyota Sienna is much better, why did you buy an Explorer?? b/c maybe they didn't want to buy a minivan, maybe they liked an explorer even if on paper nobody denies the Sienna is a valid competitor. You're stance is like arguing 'the Sienna is refined, seats the same or more as an explorer and could easily be cross shopped b/c their capabilities are similar, why ever would you buy an explorer?!?'
By your logic nobody would ever buy a single Alfa Romeo. Why would you buy one!? a Miata > Spyder, 3 Series > 159, 599GTB > 8C, GTI > Guilletta
etc etc... but that would be a crappy world to live in.
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03-08-2016, 10:02 AM
#60
Ok first off you need to stop making assumptions about everyone that replies to you. I've been a BMW owner for over a decade and I'm an active member on bimmerpost.com. And I don't think ANYONE there will concede that a charger competes with ANY BMW. There may be models that prices overlap, but that's it! Totally different buyers, totally different market segments. When BMW is assessing sales of 3 series, they're not including a charger SXT in it's calculation of market share.
and Yes I've driven a 2015 SXT AWD and a 2013 SXT (a buddy of mine had a 2013 and traded it in for a 2015). and NO it does not match the refinement of the TLX, Q50, A4, Lexus ES/IS, 3 Series, MB C class, or even Maxima.
It's not a bad car by any means. But if you think it matches the refinement then your definition of refinement is different than everyone else's.
It's not a bad car by any means. But if you think it matches the refinement then your definition of refinement is different than everyone else's.
By the way "everyone else"?? I know of two confirmed 4G owners that switched to a Charger (one on this forum) a 3 Series owner (335i F30), couple of G37 owners and other 4G owners in this forum have considered one in their replacement choices....yes it's that good.....pre-restyling were much more unrefined, in the future who knows what FCA will do but currently it's the best value for the money in a sport sedan, too bad they do not offer AWD anymore for the V8 engines.
Sales have picked up significantly with the redesign.
Ask user 012TL-GLM about lack of refinement on its Charger and he will laugh....
In any tested metric, the Charger is more sport sedan than the TLX, the UConnect infotainment system is currently one of the best in the market and it has convenience gizmos (yes these are part of e premium experience, let's not kid ourselves) that are not even available on a TLX....it has better sport seats, it has a way more modern and refined customizable higher resolution center display, much better transmission (not even a comparison)...the Charger is actually closer to the Germans when it comes to customization and performance options (brake, suspension and tires options)
It punches way above its price tag waist line.
But frankly I would pick any of the other major american car manufacturers over a Chrysler product if I'm keeping it for more than 3 years, my one exception to this rule is a Jeep Grand Cherokee.
To make sure it's clear.....I would not have touched a Chrysler product with a 10 ft pole up to 3-4 years ago....but when facts on the ground change I'm ready to change my mind, I have no brand allegiance whatsoever....up to 10 years ago I did swear I would not buy an American car ever.....well, again, things change and there are quite few very desirable American cars on the market....
So I'm not an Acura fanboy or anything, frankly I was trying to avoid buying another Acura, but ultimately for the price I wanted to spend the TLX checked off the most important boxes on my list of desires for a family sedan, end of story.
Now we agree...for a "family sedan" it is a good car...sport sedan it's a different story....
Telling people here that a charger is way better, you should have bought a charger,
I would trade my Q50 Sport for a 2015 Charger SRT 392 every day of the week and twice on Sunday (unfortunately you cannot get the technology package on an Hellcat) but I'm just not stupid enough to get rid of a car that it's only 1 1/2 years old.
By your logic nobody would ever buy a single Alfa Romeo. Why would you buy one!? a Miata > Spyder, 3 Series > 159, 599GTB > 8C, GTI > Guilletta
etc etc... but that would be a crappy world to live in.
etc etc... but that would be a crappy world to live in.
I lost you there....
Last edited by saturno_v; 03-08-2016 at 10:08 AM.
03-08-2016, 11:46 AM
#61
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[QUOTE=saturno_v;15698465]
Not really. Some might have thrown it in; I know you did up the wazoo but not many agreed with you.
Mike the product planner can say anything he wants about the Maxima. Corporate says its a Nissan branded car not an Infiniti. Nissan is the run of the mill brand, Infiniti the premium brand shooting for Luxury status. Results TBD after brand makeover.
Again, they can say anything they want in trying to sell the car. Acura is low hanging fruit in the premium brands so its a likely target.
By the same token the TL 4G was going to be the new 5 series competitor according to the Acura's most powerful car yet adds, How did that work out? Nobody really took that very seriously.
A competent premium sedan manufactured by Honda's designated premium car company. You don't go to the Honda store to buy or service it.
Its what people are willing to pay that is an interesting part of the puzzle. That's where the marketing definitions rubber meets the road. According to Edmunds the top of the line Maxima goes out the door for about $7000 less after discounts etc than a top of the line TLX. The Q50 runs a similar pricing schedule to the TLX.
The big Genesis V8 is a luxury featured & priced car disguised and hanging its head in shame in everyman's Hyundai dealerships. The Coupe I bought for my grandson will do everything the Infiniti coup will, actually has a few more ponies @ 348hp than the Q60's 330hp. Still it came out of a Hyundai store at $27K OTD while people will pay $40+ for the Q60. Its brand perception & positioning. As long as they were in a Hyundai store they were not taken seriously. The next generation 480hp 5.0 twin turbo G-Coupe sold out of a genesis store will be taken very seriously by everybody.
Next generation of these cars will be considered premium upscale cars as fast as the Genesis split from Hyundai is finalized. New stores, new product, will be the same route Toyota, Nissan & Honda (some better than the other) took in the past.
Personally I think the will catch up quickly because they are coming in with a full product line, this is where Acura missed the bus IMHO, with a good shot in moving from premium to luxury.
The Maxima, as was reminded over and over in the 4G section (remember these discussions?? I bet you do)
Furthermore, Mike Drongowski, Product Planning Manager for the Maxima, has already said that AWD for the Maxima is in the cards....
Finally, coup de grace for your logic...this is what Nissan sees among their official competitors for the Maxima in their web site.......drumroll.....the Acura TLX is there my friend...no BMW, no Mercedes, no Audi, no Infiniti, no Lexus. ..even pricing basically totally overlap between these two.
By the same token the TL 4G was going to be the new 5 series competitor according to the Acura's most powerful car yet adds, How did that work out? Nobody really took that very seriously.
and what Acura really is???
Its what people are willing to pay that is an interesting part of the puzzle. That's where the marketing definitions rubber meets the road. According to Edmunds the top of the line Maxima goes out the door for about $7000 less after discounts etc than a top of the line TLX. The Q50 runs a similar pricing schedule to the TLX.
so do you consider the current Hyundai Genesis less of a luxury car than a TLX??!!
Next generation of these cars will be considered premium upscale cars as fast as the Genesis split from Hyundai is finalized. New stores, new product, will be the same route Toyota, Nissan & Honda (some better than the other) took in the past.
Personally I think the will catch up quickly because they are coming in with a full product line, this is where Acura missed the bus IMHO, with a good shot in moving from premium to luxury.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 03-08-2016 at 11:53 AM.
03-08-2016, 12:06 PM
#62
Mike the product planner can say anything he wants about the Maxima. Corporate says its a Nissan branded car not an Infiniti. Nissan is the run of the mill brand, Infiniti the premium brand shooting for Luxury status. Results TBD after brand makeover.
A competent premium sedan manufactured by Honda's designated premium car company. You don't go to the Honda store to buy or service it.
Its what people are willing to pay that is an interesting part of the puzzle. That's where the marketing definitions rubber meets the road. According to Edmunds the top of the line Maxima goes out the door for about $7000 less than a top of the line TLX. The Q50 runs a similar pricing schedule to the TLX.
In the end you said it right...Marketing can say whatever they want, pricing is where the rubber meet the road.....people shopping for the TLX more often than not cross-shop the Maxima...actually I'm ready to bet that more people cross shop these two than the TLX-3 Series....unfortunately there is no data to browse.
Before you say it, between the Accord base and the Camry base there is almost a grand of difference....almost the same percentage of price difference (we are talking about 22-23 grand cars) so spare me the comment about the $2500 price gap between the top of the line FWD TLX and the top of the line Maxima....so Accord and Camry do not compete with each other because they do not have an identical to the dollar price tag?? Heck the Mazda 6 base has a $1500 price gap with the Camry base...
The big Genesis V8 is a luxury featured & priced car disguised and hanging its head in shame in everyman's Hyundai dealerships. The Coupe I bought for my grandson will do everything the Infiniti coup will, actually has a few more ponies @ 348hp than the Q60's 330hp. Still it came out of a Hyundai store at $27K OTD while people will pay $40+ for the Q60. Its brand perception & positioning. As long as they were in a Hyundai store they were not taken seriously. The next generation 480hp 5.0 twin turbo G-Coupe sold out of a genesis store will be taken very seriously by everybody.
You are trying to avoid the question...I was very specific...do you think the Hyundai Genesis is less of a luxury car than a TLX?? Answer.....yes or no...the Maxima is exactly in the same position...a premium (or semi-premium) vehicle sold by a mainstream company...that actually proves the point I'm making.
The comparison between your grandson Genesis Coupe (I complimented on Bimmerfest for that purchase, terrific value for the money) and the Infiniti Q60 is not totally the same as the Maxima-TLX comparo...the Q60 has visible better fit and finish than the Genesis Coupe and better/more functionality electronics.
Last edited by saturno_v; 03-08-2016 at 12:19 PM.
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Monte TLS,MAX (03-08-2016)
03-08-2016, 01:14 PM
#63
hahaha.. wow so everyone else's opinion is wrong, and yours is the only one that is correct. Buying a car isn't complicated. Ultimately you buy what you like whether it's the best in class on paper or not.
what can you not follow about the Alfa comment? Many Alfa's are technically inferior to many of their competitors, but it doesn't mean they're not desirable cars, and doesn't mean people don't buy them and love them. Saab used to be the same way.
If you're claiming a certain car is better than another that's your opinion. If you're claiming specifically it's better on these measurable metrics then that can be fact, but that doesn't mean it's automatically a better car for every person out there. Just b/c it's a good car for you doesn't mean it's good for me.
Per your request, I'll be specific about the Charger refinement issues I had: NVH, materials quality, fit and finish (which you've mentioned), panel gaps all fall short of the luxury brands you are claiming it is on par or better than. (now keep in mind i said these are issues I HAD, some ppl may not care at all about a few of those things, so I by no means speak for everyone, only myself)
Don't take it personally, but just b/c you say the most or the loudest doesn't make you correct and it certainly doesn't mean you speak for others.
what can you not follow about the Alfa comment? Many Alfa's are technically inferior to many of their competitors, but it doesn't mean they're not desirable cars, and doesn't mean people don't buy them and love them. Saab used to be the same way.
If you're claiming a certain car is better than another that's your opinion. If you're claiming specifically it's better on these measurable metrics then that can be fact, but that doesn't mean it's automatically a better car for every person out there. Just b/c it's a good car for you doesn't mean it's good for me.
Per your request, I'll be specific about the Charger refinement issues I had: NVH, materials quality, fit and finish (which you've mentioned), panel gaps all fall short of the luxury brands you are claiming it is on par or better than. (now keep in mind i said these are issues I HAD, some ppl may not care at all about a few of those things, so I by no means speak for everyone, only myself)
Don't take it personally, but just b/c you say the most or the loudest doesn't make you correct and it certainly doesn't mean you speak for others.
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03-08-2016, 01:43 PM
#64
We are just a bunch of car lovers arguing and having fun.
what can you not follow about the Alfa comment? Many Alfa's are technically inferior to many of their competitors, but it doesn't mean they're not desirable cars, and doesn't mean people don't buy them and love them. Saab used to be the same way.
Now, with the new (RWD based) Giulia sport sedan, hopefully there will be a change in direction (by the way the new Giulia platform will be used by the next generation Dodge Charger).
If you're claiming a certain car is better than another that's your opinion. If you're claiming specifically it's better on these measurable metrics then that can be fact, but that doesn't mean it's automatically a better car for every person out there. Just b/c it's a good car for you doesn't mean it's good for me.
I noticed that on the Maxima-TLX issue you agree with me...
Per your request, I'll be specific about the Charger refinement issues I had: NVH, materials quality, fit and finish (which you've mentioned), panel gaps all fall short of the luxury brands you are claiming it is on par or better than. (now keep in mind i said these are issues I HAD, some ppl may not care at all about a few of those things, so I by no means speak for everyone, only myself)
Actually NVH performance of current Charger and 300 has been almost universally praised....do you know what cars FCA builds on a modified (mainly suspension geometry) current LX platform??
Last edited by saturno_v; 03-08-2016 at 01:49 PM.
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03-08-2016, 05:32 PM
#65
What Saturno said....I like reading people's view point and while I agree with some and disagree with others, in the end, as long as we can all have fun talking about things we are passionate about, that is what it's all about 
Lets all try and be a little bit more inclusive and not get offended if someone posts something we don't agree with....God knows I have made my fair share of posts that I am sure many of you don't agree with
Lets all try and be a little bit more inclusive and not get offended if someone posts something we don't agree with....God knows I have made my fair share of posts that I am sure many of you don't agree with
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Monte TLS,MAX (03-08-2016)
03-08-2016, 05:32 PM
#66
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Infiniti the premium brand shooting for Luxury status. Nowhere did I say the Maxima was anything but a "run of the mill" Nissan
You were the first saying that Acura is not a fully fledged premium brand.. where the 4G was an awful car...but....be consistent....
An ugly car that according to Honda CEO was going to bring them into the "first tier". Major fail on that one. Result of the fail was the TLX which again IMHO is a better car even if I don't see the "Thrill". Good plan getting real & caning that tag line this year.
For what is worth don't the of the 435 as a luxury car either. To me its a nice premium ride. Its hard for me to deal with "luxury" cars that cost less than a full up pickup truck.
..according to MSRP the top of the line TLX (SH-AWD Advance) is about 5 grand more expensive than the top of the line Maxima.......an AWD Maxima will get close to that...
No point in bring stuff like AWD it does not have into it to make your numbers look better.
You can spin it anyway you want but the Maxima is not an Infiniti (Nissans Lux brand) & the TLX is part of Hondas lux brand, Acura, not the Honda line up. Nissan is saying you want a lux go to Infiniti, you want a value buy go to the Nissan store. Nothing you can pull out of the air can change that.
....unfortunately there is no data to browse.
[B]so spare me the comment about the $2500 price gap between the top of the line FWD TLX and the top of the line Maxima[/B
The FWD TLX is not the top of the line & the Maxima is still a Nissan. Top to top its still $7,000. So you are making a case that the Maxima is a upscale car based on its top end pricing is within $2500 against a mid-level TLX, interesting
You are trying to avoid the question...I was very specific...do you think the Hyundai Genesis is less of a luxury car than a TLX?? Answer.....yes or no...the Maxima is exactly in the same position...a premium (or semi-premium) vehicle sold by a mainstream company...that actually proves the point I'm making.
Its in the exact same place as Lexus was when the first copy MB were rolled out. A lot better car than many others but had not yet earned its position in car land. Worked out very well for Lexus & Genesis is following the same path.
I project it will quickly replace the two Japanese brands currently behind Lexus.
The comparison between your grandson Genesis Coupe (I complimented on Bimmerfest for that purchase, terrific value for the money) and the Infiniti Q60 is not totally the same as the Maxima-TLX comparo...the Q60 has visible better fit and finish than the Genesis Coupe and better/more functionality electronics.[/QUOTE]
I would hope so but there might be less than you think especially with a $14,000 OTD price spread.
I expect the new 420HP coupe will rectify any short comings in the current coupe but with a greatly increased MSRP.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 03-08-2016 at 05:38 PM.
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ggesq (03-08-2016)
03-08-2016, 06:12 PM
#67
Read what I said:
An ugly car that according to Honda CEO was going to bring them into the "first tier". Major fail on that one. Result of the fail was the TLX which again IMHO is a better car even if I don't see the "Thrill". Good plan getting real & caning that tag line this year.
An ugly car that according to Honda CEO was going to bring them into the "first tier". Major fail on that one. Result of the fail was the TLX which again IMHO is a better car even if I don't see the "Thrill". Good plan getting real & caning that tag line this year.
Sure Bear..the TLX will take them to Tier 1 in no time....whatever you say, I hear you...
...at the moment they have hard time even getting ugly 4G owners....
The $7,000 number is Edmunds OUT THE DOOR cost including discounts & rebates, but not tax & tags. More incentives per dollar of MSRP on the Maxima (to sell the thing) increase the MSRP spread.
You can spin it anyway you want but the Maxima is not an Infiniti (Nissans Lux brand) & the TLX is part of Hondas lux brand, Acura, not the Honda line up. Nissan is saying you want a lux go to Infiniti, you want a value buy go to the Nissan store. Nothing you can pull out of the air can change that.
The FWD TLX is not the top of the line & the Maxima is still a Nissan. Top to top its still $7,000. So you are making a case that the Maxima is a upscale car based on its top end pricing is within $2500 against a mid-level TLX, interesting
I would hope so but there might be less than you think especially with a $14,000 OTD price spread.
Last edited by saturno_v; 03-08-2016 at 06:14 PM.
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Monte TLS,MAX (03-08-2016)
03-09-2016, 11:55 AM
#68
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Once again, please reprint where I said the TLX was the plan that will take them to Tier 1. The 4G was the failed attempt to do that. Honda/Acura has admitted that was an over reach & the car was too polarizing (polite way to say FUGLY) a design.
The TLX is the answer to Acura's redirection & once again a nice competent car that is sold buy Acura, Hondas upscale brand. Much nicer looking than the 4G which a lot of us waited for & then went elsewhere when we saw the beak & bloated body.
As of today the Maxima is still just a plain old Nissan & not part of the Infiniti Group.
Nice try Bear....current rebates and discounts....another month will be Acura turn to try to move the TLX and lean on rebates....but I understand that you are trying desperately to make a point....
Another nice try Bear....when is convenient to you, "Marketers and manufacturers can say whatever they want, the buying public decides" when the same logic go against your preconceived notion, "I can spin all I want, a Maxima is mainstream and Acura is luxury"...very disappointed Bear...no point further discussing this when you flip-flop like that....
Read above about current rebates.....so a V6 TLX Advance is a "mid level" TLX.....you crack me up Bear...you really do...
[/quote]I know both cars well (Genesis Coupe, and Q60) my stepson was close to get the Genesis....of course the price difference is not fully justified on better finishing, materials and electronics...you pay a little bit for the brand too obviously as it has always been with luxury labels.[/QUOTE]
Pretty sure I said the same thing on the Bimmerfest 3/4 fourm in a current 68 post 3,715 views since 2/28 thread about the Camaro SS & the M4 at Willow Springs.
Motor trend track tests M4 and it is faster on the track than the Chevy Camaro SS - Bimmerfest - BMW Forums
Its a good read about performance & luxury. My opinions might surprise some.
Another good read with over 18,000 hits since late January
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=892890
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 03-09-2016 at 12:04 PM.
03-09-2016, 12:14 PM
#69
Team Owner
aaaaand after two pages of back and forth debates, with no one side gaining any ground in this debate, no, the Infiniti Q50 will not kill the TLX. Ever.
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BEAR-AvHistory (03-09-2016)
03-09-2016, 12:59 PM
#70
Once again, please reprint where I said the TLX was the plan that will take them to Tier 1. The 4G was the failed attempt to do that. Honda/Acura has admitted that was an over reach & the car was too polarizing (polite way to say FUGLY) a design.
The TLX is the answer to Acura's redirection & once again a nice competent car that is sold buy Acura, Hondas upscale brand. Much nicer looking than the 4G which a lot of us waited for & then went elsewhere when we saw the beak & bloated body.
The TLX is the answer to Acura's redirection & once again a nice competent car that is sold buy Acura, Hondas upscale brand. Much nicer looking than the 4G which a lot of us waited for & then went elsewhere when we saw the beak & bloated body.
Let me refresh your memory:
Acura announce its intention to pursue Tier 1 status, beginning of 2008 (4G already developed)
Link: Acura Bids for ?Tier 1? Status | News & Analysis content from WardsAuto
DETROIT – When Honda Motor Co. Ltd. created its Acura brand for the U.S. in 1986, the auto maker did not intend for it to compete directly with established luxury players.
Instead, Acura would serve as an “intercept brand” for Honda customers looking for a “near-luxury experience,” says John Mendel, American Honda Motor Co. Inc. executive vice president. Before Acura, those customers would have been considering more expensive European luxury brands such as Volvo, BMW or Mercedes-Benz.
That strategy soon will come to an end as Acura attempts to reposition itself to compete more directly in the luxury sector, Mendel says, with the first attempts coming after the debut of the next-generation NSX supercar in 2010.
Honda decide to call off its Tier 1 status ambitions, Nov 2009
Link: http://www.autonews.com/article/2009...-product-plans
Link: Acura lowers sights to entry-luxury: Tier 1 off the table | LeftLaneNews
....and up until a year ago, the automotive community was still looking forward to a new NSX. Fast-forward a few months and the NSX is cancelled, the rear-drive V8 programs are on indefinite hold, and it's safe to say no one is holding their breath for an Acura Phantom.
TOKYO -- Acura is reversing course in North America as the brand suffers through the shift from high-performance luxury vehicles and the cancellation of its V-8 and rear-wheel-drive programs.
There is "a certain level of confusion" about Acura in the marketplace, Honda Motor Co. CEO Takanobu Ito told Automotive News at the Tokyo Motor Show. "We are in the midst of big changes. We've changed the direction of research and development."
It appeared that Honda finally had acquiesced to matching top-tier luxury brands with V-8 and rear-drive vehicles -- only to scrap those plans after the Lehman Bros. collapse and the economic tumble that followed. That has sent engineers and designers back to the drawing board, Ito said.
Honda CEO Ito: Now, “premium products will be expressed in advanced environmental technologies.”
'Low-growth period'
"Pre-Lehman, we did have the idea to produce more multicylinder engines," Ito said through an interpreter.
So now we (hopefully) clarified that the connection between the failed Tier 1 shot by Acura and the 4G is something that you pulled from who knows where....hopefully you will not regurgitate nonsense about it again.
As of today the Maxima is still just a plain old Nissan & not part of the Infiniti Group.
What is is. Not my numbers they are Edmunds. Next month is next month & maybe the numbers will change & maybe the Nissan will get AWD to make your numbers look better.
You are spinning & not many are agreeing with you including Nissan management who elected to put Nissan logos on the car & sell it at the car supermarket operation, the Nissan dealer.
Have not been to the Acura store lately but isn't the 2.4 the bottom 3.5 paws the middle & the 3.5 SH-AWD the top end?
Last edited by saturno_v; 03-09-2016 at 01:12 PM.
03-09-2016, 02:28 PM
#71
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Feb 2nd 2009 at 7:58PM
Acura continues to push for Tier-1 status, NSX could be revived.
But according to Dick Colliver, executive vice president of American Honda Motor Co., the key to playing with the big boys isn't limited to what's on showroom floors. Colliver told Automotive News, "Being a premium luxury brand is not just about product. It's the way dealers handle customers. You've got to earn your way into the segment. You don't necessarily have to have a $90,000 sedan to get there."
Even though that formula seems to have worked for Lexus, Acura has different plans. The recently released TSX, RL and TL ****The 4G TL****have set the tone for the next few years, and another crossover, designed to slot in between the RDX and MDX, is currently under development. (The ZDX?)
Acura previously announced its intent to move toward tier 1 status at a dealer conference last year, **that would be 2008*** and has since been working toward that with its new model run. The first of these new models include the RL and TSX sedans, plus the new - though oft-maligned - 2009 TL.
NOTE: The 4G was introduced at the 2008 Detroit Auto Show to be sold as a 2009. First car produced in 2008. The RL also crashed & burned leaving the not so tier one TSX as what?
A little bit old but fun Where is the Maxima?
Tier 3 – more affordable brands, more mainstream
1.Jaguar – It is a shame that Ford sold Jaguar. Some would say that Jag is tier two, I would have said it was #5 in tier three until the XF. The XF is the nicest Jag ever. Let’s see what happens next.
2.Infiniti – First the G35 coupe, the new G35 sedan, the M, and now the FX. At this rate, Infiniti could be a even more major player in this tier. But first they need to release a higher-end/larger model than the M.
3.Cadillac – I can’t not include Cadillac, but the brand is older than Mercedes in my mind. The CTS helped a bit but then you have the DTS. Yup I didn’t forget the Escalade, but that is not at the core of the brand.
4.Tied for 4th: Acura and VW – Acura’s are more upscale than Hondas, and VW is less than Audi but that doesn’t really offer an identity for either.
Acura chatter from 2008
With a $50k target price and a possible folding hardtop version, the new vehicle will almost certainly occupy a niche spot in the market. According to the Acura corporate office, this new model is what it will take for Acura to assume its rightful position as a "tier one" luxury brand like BMW or Mercedes.
Acura continues to push for Tier-1 status, NSX could be revived.
But according to Dick Colliver, executive vice president of American Honda Motor Co., the key to playing with the big boys isn't limited to what's on showroom floors. Colliver told Automotive News, "Being a premium luxury brand is not just about product. It's the way dealers handle customers. You've got to earn your way into the segment. You don't necessarily have to have a $90,000 sedan to get there."
Even though that formula seems to have worked for Lexus, Acura has different plans. The recently released TSX, RL and TL ****The 4G TL****have set the tone for the next few years, and another crossover, designed to slot in between the RDX and MDX, is currently under development. (The ZDX?)
Acura previously announced its intent to move toward tier 1 status at a dealer conference last year, **that would be 2008*** and has since been working toward that with its new model run. The first of these new models include the RL and TSX sedans, plus the new - though oft-maligned - 2009 TL.
NOTE: The 4G was introduced at the 2008 Detroit Auto Show to be sold as a 2009. First car produced in 2008. The RL also crashed & burned leaving the not so tier one TSX as what?
A little bit old but fun Where is the Maxima?
Tier 3 – more affordable brands, more mainstream
1.Jaguar – It is a shame that Ford sold Jaguar. Some would say that Jag is tier two, I would have said it was #5 in tier three until the XF. The XF is the nicest Jag ever. Let’s see what happens next.
2.Infiniti – First the G35 coupe, the new G35 sedan, the M, and now the FX. At this rate, Infiniti could be a even more major player in this tier. But first they need to release a higher-end/larger model than the M.
3.Cadillac – I can’t not include Cadillac, but the brand is older than Mercedes in my mind. The CTS helped a bit but then you have the DTS. Yup I didn’t forget the Escalade, but that is not at the core of the brand.
4.Tied for 4th: Acura and VW – Acura’s are more upscale than Hondas, and VW is less than Audi but that doesn’t really offer an identity for either.
Acura chatter from 2008
With a $50k target price and a possible folding hardtop version, the new vehicle will almost certainly occupy a niche spot in the market. According to the Acura corporate office, this new model is what it will take for Acura to assume its rightful position as a "tier one" luxury brand like BMW or Mercedes.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 03-09-2016 at 02:41 PM.
03-09-2016, 02:47 PM
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End paragraph above & end of comments. Good luck with the Maxima for luxury car status campaign.
Stock analysts said "But adding two-door and convertible TLs doesn't exactly banish Acura's rep as a seller of tarted-up Accords or launch it anywhere near the German teeth of the marke."
Stock analysts said "But adding two-door and convertible TLs doesn't exactly banish Acura's rep as a seller of tarted-up Accords or launch it anywhere near the German teeth of the marke."
03-09-2016, 03:08 PM
#73
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TLX, Maxima, Q50.....which ever one floats your boat... I know several people that cross shopped the 3, 1 ended up with Platinum Maxima and 2 with neither of the 3 in recent months.....
03-09-2016, 03:31 PM
#74
Feb 2nd 2009 at 7:58PM
Acura continues to push for Tier-1 status, NSX could be revived.
But according to Dick Colliver, executive vice president of American Honda Motor Co., the key to playing with the big boys isn't limited to what's on showroom floors. Colliver told Automotive News, "Being a premium luxury brand is not just about product. It's the way dealers handle customers. You've got to earn your way into the segment. You don't necessarily have to have a $90,000 sedan to get there."
Acura continues to push for Tier-1 status, NSX could be revived.
But according to Dick Colliver, executive vice president of American Honda Motor Co., the key to playing with the big boys isn't limited to what's on showroom floors. Colliver told Automotive News, "Being a premium luxury brand is not just about product. It's the way dealers handle customers. You've got to earn your way into the segment. You don't necessarily have to have a $90,000 sedan to get there."
Even though that formula seems to have worked for Lexus, Acura has different plans. The recently released TSX, RL and TL ****The 4G TL****have set the tone for the next few years, and another crossover, designed to slot in between the RDX and MDX, is currently under development. (The ZDX?)
Mendel clearly said "Tier 1 products arriving with the 2010 NSX"..the only thing they implemented was renovating showrooms in anticipation...re-read what he said...."first attempt after the next generation NSX supercar in 2010"
Acura previously announced its intent to move toward tier 1 status at a dealer conference last year, **that would be 2008*** and has since been working toward that with its new model run. The first of these new models include the RL and TSX sedans, plus the new - though oft-maligned - 2009 TL.
Tier 1 plans abandoned when the 4G was only few months old (official announcement in Nov 2009, decision taken I assume a bit earlier) in the middle of a catastrophic recession.....the theory of scrapping Tier 1 efforts because of 4G TL sales performance it'is only in your head.
The RL also crashed & burned leaving the not so tier one TSX as what?
Where is the Maxima?
Acura chatter from 2008
With a $50k target price and a possible folding hardtop version, the new vehicle will almost certainly occupy a niche spot in the market. According to the Acura corporate office, this new model is what it will take for Acura to assume its rightful position as a "tier one" luxury brand like BMW or Mercedes.
With a $50k target price and a possible folding hardtop version, the new vehicle will almost certainly occupy a niche spot in the market. According to the Acura corporate office, this new model is what it will take for Acura to assume its rightful position as a "tier one" luxury brand like BMW or Mercedes.
...and what this has to do with the 4G TL as it was ultimately implemented??....Nothing....yes in 2008 Acura started talking about becoming Tier 1 and announced new incoming products after the NSX....again I posted the interview with Acura management.
Tier 1 for Acura management has always meant RWD platform, large cars, a halo supercar and V8 and/or turbocharged powerful engines.
The brand itself had no Tier 1 products...not even Infiniti can be considered a Tier 1 brand...Lexus barely...nothing to do with the 4G TL.
Last edited by saturno_v; 03-09-2016 at 03:44 PM.
03-09-2016, 04:25 PM
#76
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December 12, 2011 - 12:01 am ET
LAS VEGAS -- Honda will overhaul and reposition its Acura lineup over the next 18 months and abandon its long pursuit of top-tier luxury-car status for the brand.
After years of trying to propel Acura into the front ranks with Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Lexus, Honda says it will settle for offering mid-level premium vehicles that favor fuel economy over performance.
In the works for Acura:
-- The ILX compact sedan will arrive in spring, using Honda's global Civic platform. It replaces the tired TSX that used the bones of the European Accord.
-- A redesigned RL flagship that is larger than the current version is due next fall.
-- A redesigned mid-sized TL sedan follows in the spring of 2013.
"Our sedans haven't been doing the job for the brand," said Vicki Poponi, American Honda assistant vice president for product planning, at a briefing here for dealers and the media.
They missed their target of killing the 4G in 2012.
LAS VEGAS -- Honda will overhaul and reposition its Acura lineup over the next 18 months and abandon its long pursuit of top-tier luxury-car status for the brand.
After years of trying to propel Acura into the front ranks with Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Lexus, Honda says it will settle for offering mid-level premium vehicles that favor fuel economy over performance.
In the works for Acura:
-- The ILX compact sedan will arrive in spring, using Honda's global Civic platform. It replaces the tired TSX that used the bones of the European Accord.
-- A redesigned RL flagship that is larger than the current version is due next fall.
-- A redesigned mid-sized TL sedan follows in the spring of 2013.
"Our sedans haven't been doing the job for the brand," said Vicki Poponi, American Honda assistant vice president for product planning, at a briefing here for dealers and the media.
They missed their target of killing the 4G in 2012.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 03-09-2016 at 04:31 PM.
03-09-2016, 04:43 PM
#77
December 12, 2011 - 12:01 am ET
LAS VEGAS -- Honda will overhaul and reposition its Acura lineup over the next 18 months and abandon its long pursuit of top-tier luxury-car status for the brand.
After years of trying to propel Acura into the front ranks with Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Lexus, Honda says it will settle for offering mid-level premium vehicles that favor fuel economy over performance.
In the works for Acura:
-- The ILX compact sedan will arrive in spring, using Honda's global Civic platform. It replaces the tired TSX that used the bones of the European Accord.
-- A redesigned RL flagship that is larger than the current version is due next fall.
-- A redesigned mid-sized TL sedan follows in the spring of 2013.
"Our sedans haven't been doing the job for the brand," said Vicki Poponi, American Honda assistant vice president for product planning, at a briefing here for dealers and the media.
LAS VEGAS -- Honda will overhaul and reposition its Acura lineup over the next 18 months and abandon its long pursuit of top-tier luxury-car status for the brand.
After years of trying to propel Acura into the front ranks with Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Lexus, Honda says it will settle for offering mid-level premium vehicles that favor fuel economy over performance.
In the works for Acura:
-- The ILX compact sedan will arrive in spring, using Honda's global Civic platform. It replaces the tired TSX that used the bones of the European Accord.
-- A redesigned RL flagship that is larger than the current version is due next fall.
-- A redesigned mid-sized TL sedan follows in the spring of 2013.
"Our sedans haven't been doing the job for the brand," said Vicki Poponi, American Honda assistant vice president for product planning, at a briefing here for dealers and the media.
....exactly....so???
Honda never tried to propel Acura to the same level of MB, BMW and Lexus because they never offered these type of products to be a real Tier 1 player....never.....Tier 1 has to do with the brand and its product range not a single product.
Briefly (for 1 1/2 years) Acura just did talk about trying to get to Tier 1 in the future and, shortly after, decided otherwise.
The 4G has nothing to do with it...however, as sport sedan, it mops the floor with a TLX....but I'm glad you think it's a nice looking car...
03-09-2016, 04:57 PM
#78
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A little change in direction & back to the topic. Found this when I was looking for the post above that I had remembered from back when the marketing lady made one of the statements.
"In Acura's retooled lineup, mpg triumphs over mph"
"The leading edge of that generation is turning 30, and Honda says the generation's top priorities are exterior styling, price and environmental friendliness.
"A good sound system" finished fifth in its research, and less than 20 percent care about high performance, Honda says.
"Technology is only as good as the driver," said Gary Evert, division director for advanced automotive planning at Acura r&d. "The vehicle almost always has more capability than the driver can handle. Anything outside the customer's understanding is waste."
Like the me vs saturno above Honda/Acura is constantly mix the messages. First Tier, No First Tier, First Tier, No really No First Tier.
Now its a thrill with the lady pulling down her helmet visor with the streaking car across the desert in the TV commercial. While the R&D guy says our customers can't drive so we don't need no stink'N performance past very average. Give them a good radio & we have it made.
I think this convoluted attitude unless it gets changed does not bode well for performance Acura versions outside of the Halo NSX. The purchasers of which beside very fat wallets can actually drive well.
"In Acura's retooled lineup, mpg triumphs over mph"
"The leading edge of that generation is turning 30, and Honda says the generation's top priorities are exterior styling, price and environmental friendliness.
"A good sound system" finished fifth in its research, and less than 20 percent care about high performance, Honda says.
"Technology is only as good as the driver," said Gary Evert, division director for advanced automotive planning at Acura r&d. "The vehicle almost always has more capability than the driver can handle. Anything outside the customer's understanding is waste."
Like the me vs saturno above Honda/Acura is constantly mix the messages. First Tier, No First Tier, First Tier, No really No First Tier.
Now its a thrill with the lady pulling down her helmet visor with the streaking car across the desert in the TV commercial. While the R&D guy says our customers can't drive so we don't need no stink'N performance past very average. Give them a good radio & we have it made.
I think this convoluted attitude unless it gets changed does not bode well for performance Acura versions outside of the Halo NSX. The purchasers of which beside very fat wallets can actually drive well.
Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 03-09-2016 at 05:12 PM.
03-09-2016, 05:10 PM
#79
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All we need is a coupe/convert version of the 4G for about $50K & we will have the first tier recognition that we deserve.
If they believed they deserved the First Tier recognition that they were not getting by simply cloning a 4G TL coupe & convertible to round out the product line any reasonable thinking person would be forced to conclude that they thought the 4G was a Tier One product.
03-09-2016, 05:11 PM
#80
Let's see... hijack a thread and argue with everyone in it? Nah, doesn't sound like a troll to me.
In regards to Nissan and their Infiniti line, they haven't made a nice looking car in years in my opinion. I owned two Frontiers and they were excellent trucks but wow, they haven't impressed me in a long time. Competition is a good thing though so I'm glad they're still around.
In regards to Nissan and their Infiniti line, they haven't made a nice looking car in years in my opinion. I owned two Frontiers and they were excellent trucks but wow, they haven't impressed me in a long time. Competition is a good thing though so I'm glad they're still around.