Tesla: Sales, Marketing, and Financial News
03-11-2020, 03:23 PM
#321
Ex-OEM King
IDGAF about the cyber truck but if they are announcing a big price cut, it may push me over the wall to get one. Really not holding my breath though, they don't have any issues selling the cars as they are priced today.
03-11-2020, 03:23 PM
#322
Sanest Florida Man
Even though road trips to Grandma is a real thing and there’s some concern about charging infrastructure on highway journeys, it’s the fact that there are millions of condos, apartments, and townhouses in the US that don’t have the ability to charge EVs overnight (no garages) that is the real limiting factor.
I would be fine stopping for ten minutes every three hours if that was necessary on a road trip. We aren’t there yet on charging though (210-225 miles on a 10 minute charge).
That would have added 45 minutes per day for my two day drive to Colorado from DC. The dogs would have needed a break and we could have grabbed lunch or snacks for some of those stops.
But there’s no way I would do that if I thought I might encounter the lines we saw over Thanksgiving or some asshole decides to park his truck in front of the charging station to own the libs.
We still have a long way to go.
I would be fine stopping for ten minutes every three hours if that was necessary on a road trip. We aren’t there yet on charging though (210-225 miles on a 10 minute charge).
That would have added 45 minutes per day for my two day drive to Colorado from DC. The dogs would have needed a break and we could have grabbed lunch or snacks for some of those stops.
But there’s no way I would do that if I thought I might encounter the lines we saw over Thanksgiving or some asshole decides to park his truck in front of the charging station to own the libs.
We still have a long way to go.
03-11-2020, 03:25 PM
#323
Sanest Florida Man
They still want to reach lower price points, if they could get the $40k model down to actually $35k, that'd be a killer car.
03-11-2020, 03:34 PM
#324
Sanest Florida Man
Though if you live in Minnesota you might want the all wheel drive car, I can only speculate on what they'll do with this cheaper battery, but a cheaper car is an option. We'll get some answers in April but then we'll probably have even more questions after that.
03-11-2020, 03:51 PM
#325
Team Owner
you are jumping all over the places.I would say, if you can't charge it at home. Dont even bother with any EV.... It is a pain in the ass and the type of hassle that you didnt even know exist with owning a car.
If you could charge at home, as i said before 250 miles or 300 miles or even 400 miles make no difference for your day to day activities. If you really need 400 miles range frequently, i doubt full EV will be on your list anyway.
If you could charge at home, as i said before 250 miles or 300 miles or even 400 miles make no difference for your day to day activities. If you really need 400 miles range frequently, i doubt full EV will be on your list anyway.
We've discussed this before but you still fail to get it. 85-90% of all EV charging is done at home or at work if they have it. You rarely stop at a supercharger, there isn't usually a long line at charging stations. You hear about that in one state during Christmas and Thanksgiving. All modes of travel get stressed during the holidays. Gas stations get backed up during the holidays and when a hurricane is coming. I've never seen a charging station run out of energy like the gas stations do when a hurricane is coming. I'd rather wait for an hour to charge up an EV than to wait an hour to get gas before a hurricane only for the gas station to run out and you're left stranded. But neither of those situations are the norm and you shouldn't judge these cars based on just edge case situations
I'm not saying it's not an issue but it's an issue of which a solution has already been developed and is being implemented. Most chargers nowadays are 120kw, they're being replaced with 250kw chargers, in addition to the hundreds of new chargers being built every year. They've already open about 50 new charging stations in the US so far this year. That's not to mention the billions of dollars being spent on Electrify America, Chargepoint, EVGo and other 3rd party charging stations that are opening alongside them that a Tesla can use.
There does not need to be as many charging stations as gas stations because they will be used much less frequently than a gas station because everyone charges at home or work. Charging is usually done at the same time as something else, whether that's shopping at the grocery store, mall, or eating at a restaurant, you don't usually stop to charge an EV and do nothing else. With the new 250kw charging you can get 100 mi range in about the same amount of time it takes to fill your gas tank.
I don't hear Tesla users constantly complaining about the charging system leaving them screwed, the community is vocal about things they don't like (service, parts repair) but charging isn't one of their top concerns, only someone who's never lived day to day with an EV would think charging is this dealbreaking issue because they're still stuck in the mindset of stopping at a gas station every week or two.
I'm not saying it's not an issue but it's an issue of which a solution has already been developed and is being implemented. Most chargers nowadays are 120kw, they're being replaced with 250kw chargers, in addition to the hundreds of new chargers being built every year. They've already open about 50 new charging stations in the US so far this year. That's not to mention the billions of dollars being spent on Electrify America, Chargepoint, EVGo and other 3rd party charging stations that are opening alongside them that a Tesla can use.
There does not need to be as many charging stations as gas stations because they will be used much less frequently than a gas station because everyone charges at home or work. Charging is usually done at the same time as something else, whether that's shopping at the grocery store, mall, or eating at a restaurant, you don't usually stop to charge an EV and do nothing else. With the new 250kw charging you can get 100 mi range in about the same amount of time it takes to fill your gas tank.
I don't hear Tesla users constantly complaining about the charging system leaving them screwed, the community is vocal about things they don't like (service, parts repair) but charging isn't one of their top concerns, only someone who's never lived day to day with an EV would think charging is this dealbreaking issue because they're still stuck in the mindset of stopping at a gas station every week or two.
And we are talking about not everyone has the ability to charge at home and you were saying to threaten the landlord.
Like i said if you can charge at home and only drive limited miles and not planning to do frequent trips. EV is fine even today.
You had thrown out so many assumptions out there and that is where the koolaid came in.
03-11-2020, 03:54 PM
#326
Team Owner
I think if you live areas with a lot of snow and ice.. avoid EV all together AWD or not.
The instant torque might kill a lot of ppl.
03-11-2020, 05:00 PM
#327
Team Owner
Yes maybe. #1 you dont need a car in SF. #2. I do not consider people who can afford a model 3RICH like you said.
How do you know if EV will become cheaper in the next 2-3 years?
i can think of 100 reasons why anyone would pick ICU cars at least for now over an EV.
#1, i can go anywhere within driving distance without even thinking about where the gas station is.
#2. I do not have to take longer route just so i can charge.
#3. Now, not only you have to drive further, the waiting time (both in line and charging) is much much longer than fueling up gas. Now, if you were right about the popularity of EV, that means there will be a lot more EVs on the road and so far i do not see much of change in charging infrastructure.
and on and on and on...
How do you know if EV will become cheaper in the next 2-3 years?
i can think of 100 reasons why anyone would pick ICU cars at least for now over an EV.
#1, i can go anywhere within driving distance without even thinking about where the gas station is.
#2. I do not have to take longer route just so i can charge.
#3. Now, not only you have to drive further, the waiting time (both in line and charging) is much much longer than fueling up gas. Now, if you were right about the popularity of EV, that means there will be a lot more EVs on the road and so far i do not see much of change in charging infrastructure.
and on and on and on...
I think there are many people in SF who can afford a Model 3 but can't afford a home in SF.
In the next 2-3 years and EV will become cheaper than a comparable ICE vehicle, not including subsidies, lower fuel costs, and less maintenance. So why would anyone pay more for a vehicle that costs more to fuel it, and breaks down more often?
In the next 2-3 years and EV will become cheaper than a comparable ICE vehicle, not including subsidies, lower fuel costs, and less maintenance. So why would anyone pay more for a vehicle that costs more to fuel it, and breaks down more often?
You asked why would anyone............
I gave you plenty of reasons
then you are saying you can charge at home
Well not everyone can charge at home
= There are plenty of reasons why you dont want to buy an EV... as of 2020.
03-11-2020, 05:59 PM
#328
But if they make Model S and X cheaper it’ll sell a lot , but they won’t do that either. They would rather keep these cars at same price and improve their range and performance significantly as well as interior upgrade and reveal it as next gen S/X.
I hear you. But it’s not inconceivable that Tesla can release an OTA which can change the driving characteristics to “snow mode” with less torque during those situations. Better yet make the vehicle “weather aware” so that whenever the weather changes the car detects it and matches it to the available weather forecast and changes its driving patterns. The possibilities are endless with Tesla. The icing on the cake is that even existing cars can be enabled.
03-11-2020, 06:19 PM
#329
Team Owner
Except those features are already in the ICE cars today... So i dont know what you mean by the possibilities are endless with Tesla when it is already old tech with "normal" cars..
News flash, there is a possibility that you can transfer torque to either left or right instead of front and rear
Just remember, the ICE cars are also driven by Computers nowadays. It also can predicate the road ahead and change its transmission shifting pattern, power output and everything else that you could think of.
News flash, there is a possibility that you can transfer torque to either left or right instead of front and rear
Just remember, the ICE cars are also driven by Computers nowadays. It also can predicate the road ahead and change its transmission shifting pattern, power output and everything else that you could think of.
03-11-2020, 06:40 PM
#330
Sanest Florida Man
I was talking about the future when the sticker price of EVs are cheaper than a comparable ICE vehicle. Like the VW Golf GTI is $35k (IDK what it is) but the VW ID.3 EV hatchback with 250-300mi range is $33k. If you can charge at home or work or wherever reliably than most people would choose the ID.3
03-11-2020, 06:46 PM
#331
Sanest Florida Man
Exactly as is highlighted.
I don’t think Tesla will make the Model 3 cheaper since they are already production constrained and selling all they can make. Making it cheaper will not achieve anything besides goodwill. And there’s already a 35 K model if you want it. But I see what you mean by getting the 40k model at 35k.
But if they make Model S and X cheaper it’ll sell a lot , but they won’t do that either. They would rather keep these cars at same price and improve their range and performance significantly as well as interior upgrade and reveal it as next gen S/X.
I hear you. But it’s not inconceivable that Tesla can release an OTA which can change the driving characteristics to “snow mode” with less torque during those situations. Better yet make the vehicle “weather aware” so that whenever the weather changes the car detects it and matches it to the available weather forecast and changes its driving patterns. The possibilities are endless with Tesla. The icing on the cake is that even existing cars can be enabled.
I don’t think Tesla will make the Model 3 cheaper since they are already production constrained and selling all they can make. Making it cheaper will not achieve anything besides goodwill. And there’s already a 35 K model if you want it. But I see what you mean by getting the 40k model at 35k.
But if they make Model S and X cheaper it’ll sell a lot , but they won’t do that either. They would rather keep these cars at same price and improve their range and performance significantly as well as interior upgrade and reveal it as next gen S/X.
I hear you. But it’s not inconceivable that Tesla can release an OTA which can change the driving characteristics to “snow mode” with less torque during those situations. Better yet make the vehicle “weather aware” so that whenever the weather changes the car detects it and matches it to the available weather forecast and changes its driving patterns. The possibilities are endless with Tesla. The icing on the cake is that even existing cars can be enabled.
Climate change is real, people need to stop driving ICE vehicles but they need a good alternative to do that, that is Tesla's number 1 goal to make a compelling affordable product that the masses will want to buy, and that will encourage the legacy auto manufacturers to follow suit.
03-11-2020, 06:57 PM
#332
Team Owner
I was talking about the future when the sticker price of EVs are cheaper than a comparable ICE vehicle. Like the VW Golf GTI is $35k (IDK what it is) but the VW ID.3 EV hatchback with 250-300mi range is $33k. If you can charge at home or work or wherever reliably than most people would choose the ID.3
It is already an issue with the battery and the market share of EV is only at 2% in the US or 2.2% worldwide. There has be some kind of breakthrough in battery supply chain and capacity for the EV to get 10-20% marketshare...
Sorry i just dont see it happening in 2-3 years... even 10 years might be over optimistic... 20 years Maybe...
Now, i can't say the same about leasing... since you could lease an i3 for low $200 a month with nothing down (MSRP $45k)
Last edited by oonowindoo; 03-11-2020 at 07:05 PM.
03-11-2020, 06:58 PM
#333
Race Director
Again, you need to cut back on the Al Gore global warming kool aid. ICE passenger cars have very little to do with that now - even if everyone switched tomorrow, it would make no appreciable difference.
03-11-2020, 06:59 PM
#334
Sanest Florida Man
Last edited by #1 STUNNA; 03-11-2020 at 07:12 PM.
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Comfy (03-11-2020)
03-11-2020, 07:01 PM
#335
Sanest Florida Man
03-11-2020, 07:09 PM
#336
Sanest Florida Man
I'm curious if the new batteries will be able charge at a faster rate. They'll be more energy dense, and should run cooler, so you might be able to charge them at a faster rate without them overheating. We'll see. If so, it'd be really cool if Tesla had already planned for this and then unlocked 350kw charging at their new Supercharger 3.0 stations
Me: I have a question. Is a battery with a higher energy density able to be charged at a faster rate? Will these new maxwell based batteries with upto 390wh/kg energy density be able to be safely charged at say 350kw instead of 250kw?
Him: Yes, they can be charged faster, but not because they are bigger. It's because they don't have as much internal resistance and don't get as hot.
Me: what’s the highest rate that you think a 75kwh pack of these new batteries could be safely charged?
Him: More than v3 supercharger could put out. With v3 I'd think it would still knock off a 5-10 minutes though, depending on where in the charge range you are. Beyond that, it depends on the cell and pack design. Too many unknowns.
Me: I hope Tesla planned for this and will announce that surprise, v3 can actually charge at 350kw. Or with this new battery you’d be able to maintain a charge rate of 250kw for a longer period of time before ramping down to lower speeds as the battery fills up.
Him: Yes, they can be charged faster, but not because they are bigger. It's because they don't have as much internal resistance and don't get as hot.
Me: what’s the highest rate that you think a 75kwh pack of these new batteries could be safely charged?
Him: More than v3 supercharger could put out. With v3 I'd think it would still knock off a 5-10 minutes though, depending on where in the charge range you are. Beyond that, it depends on the cell and pack design. Too many unknowns.
Me: I hope Tesla planned for this and will announce that surprise, v3 can actually charge at 350kw. Or with this new battery you’d be able to maintain a charge rate of 250kw for a longer period of time before ramping down to lower speeds as the battery fills up.
03-11-2020, 07:13 PM
#337
Team Owner
No, you really should drive an EV, it's clear that you haven't spent any time in them. Dual motor EVs are safer than ICE vehicles in general but also in the snow. An dual motor EV is a capable of way more precise traction control, since there's a motor for each axle much better than an ICE vehicle could ever do. A digital EV motor can detect and respond to loss of grip much faster than an a combustion engine.
https://youtu.be/qJesZgW0Rlk
https://youtu.be/qJesZgW0Rlk
Now, i have not spent any time driving on ice since we do not have any. But i can tell you that even in rain, it was very easy to lose traction if you are not careful with the "gas" pedal. And how is your argument relevant to what i said about the danger of having that much instant torque over icy/snow condition?
In icy condition, you can detect whatever you want, once you start sliding, it is game over. AWD, 2WD or 8WD wont even save you. Having that much instant torque will do just that. Snow tires and chains will help.
03-11-2020, 07:19 PM
#338
Team Owner
If you really care about the environment. You should ride a bicycle...
Hypocrite
Hypocrite
Batteries are ubiquitous yet often ignored, humming in the background while powering appliances, smartphones, and other parts of our lives. They’re also a pivotal piece in the environmental puzzle, as batteries that are better able to store energy will boost intermittent renewables like wind and solar.
But batteries themselves have environmental drawbacks, too. They contain toxic and in some cases flammable materials. And they require lots of energy to manufacture, which means high greenhouse gas emissions.
These are among the issues raised in Future Brief: Towards the Battery of the Future, a recent report from the European Commission’s Science for Environment Policy service. As researchers continue to experiment with new materials and designs—and as regulators look to shape policy—the report (and its accompanying infographic) outlines several areas for improvement.
Once these materials are mined, workers must then extract them from the rocks they’re embedded in, a process that emits large amounts of the pollutant sulfur oxide. To mitigate these harms, the report calls for more reuse and recycling of battery materials.
Researchers are working to develop higher density batteries, which the report points to as another helpful solution. By storing more energy in a smaller space, such batteries use less metal. And compared with batteries that are less dense, they can power a device for a longer stretch of time, so, for example, that electric vehicles can travel farther before needing to be recharged.
While batteries are made to store energy, the report also highlights the massive amounts of energy used to make them. “The most efficient way of reducing [greenhouse gas] emissions from the production of batteries,” the report says, “is to manufacture cells in facilities powered entirely by renewable energy sources.”
Other considerations covered by the report include lengthening the lifespan of batteries, recycling the materials used to make them, and, where possible, reusing batteries for less intensive functions once they’ve lost the capacity to meet their original purpose. Batteries from electric vehicles, for instance, are sometimes refurbished and used for energy storage. For their part, battery designers can make recycling and reuse more feasible by creating batteries with easily separable parts, clear labels, a relatively low number of components, and fewer dangerous materials.
But batteries themselves have environmental drawbacks, too. They contain toxic and in some cases flammable materials. And they require lots of energy to manufacture, which means high greenhouse gas emissions.
These are among the issues raised in Future Brief: Towards the Battery of the Future, a recent report from the European Commission’s Science for Environment Policy service. As researchers continue to experiment with new materials and designs—and as regulators look to shape policy—the report (and its accompanying infographic) outlines several areas for improvement.
Mining and refining
During any battery’s lifetime, the report says, some of the worst environmental impacts come from mining and refining. Metals like cobalt and nickel are essential for conducting electricity in many batteries, but digging them out of the ground leaves behind waste that can leak toxic substances into surrounding areas.Once these materials are mined, workers must then extract them from the rocks they’re embedded in, a process that emits large amounts of the pollutant sulfur oxide. To mitigate these harms, the report calls for more reuse and recycling of battery materials.
Researchers are working to develop higher density batteries, which the report points to as another helpful solution. By storing more energy in a smaller space, such batteries use less metal. And compared with batteries that are less dense, they can power a device for a longer stretch of time, so, for example, that electric vehicles can travel farther before needing to be recharged.
While batteries are made to store energy, the report also highlights the massive amounts of energy used to make them. “The most efficient way of reducing [greenhouse gas] emissions from the production of batteries,” the report says, “is to manufacture cells in facilities powered entirely by renewable energy sources.”
Other considerations
Limiting energy loss, the report argues, can also have big returns. Rechargeable batteries are able to unload most, but not all, of their energy to power phones, cars, and other devices. The remaining portion is lost, with the amount varying: Standard lead-acid batteries waste 20 to 30 per cent of their energy over a lifetime, while lithium-ion batteries have energy loss closer to 10 per cent. Improving efficiency by even small amounts can cut down on the environmental harms of producing electricity to charge batteries, according to the report.Other considerations covered by the report include lengthening the lifespan of batteries, recycling the materials used to make them, and, where possible, reusing batteries for less intensive functions once they’ve lost the capacity to meet their original purpose. Batteries from electric vehicles, for instance, are sometimes refurbished and used for energy storage. For their part, battery designers can make recycling and reuse more feasible by creating batteries with easily separable parts, clear labels, a relatively low number of components, and fewer dangerous materials.
Development and invention
Many battery technologies are in development, and the report spotlights three of them as case studies:- Solid-state lithium batteries replace the electrolyte, a key component of the battery that’s typically liquid, with solid ceramic or polymer material. The report says that these batteries will be safer and last longer, but it will be at least a decade before they become commercially available.
- Redox flow batteries store energy differently than conventional alternatives. They’re not as efficient but they last longer, which would ease demand for the natural resources and polluting production processes that batteries rely on. Researchers are working to reduce the cost and size of redox flow batteries so they can reach their full potential.
- Printed batteries have already found some commercial success. Sometimes thinner than a millimeter, they’re used in cards, tags and medical monitoring devices. According to the report, little is known about the environmental impact of printed batteries.
03-11-2020, 09:06 PM
#339
03-11-2020, 10:09 PM
#340
I was talking about the future when the sticker price of EVs are cheaper than a comparable ICE vehicle. Like the VW Golf GTI is $35k (IDK what it is) but the VW ID.3 EV hatchback with 250-300mi range is $33k. If you can charge at home or work or wherever reliably than most people would choose the ID.3
Most people not even buy these versions
most people start negotiating after such deals. see there is no sport related or special versions like TRD PRO.
03-11-2020, 10:32 PM
#341
Remember their goal is to accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable energy and to make a profit doing it. If they can make a $35k vehicle with 20% profit margin thanks to this new battery and that will allow more people to buy an EV over an ICE vehicle than they're going to do it.
Climate change is real, people need to stop driving ICE vehicles but they need a good alternative to do that, that is Tesla's number 1 goal to make a compelling affordable product that the masses will want to buy, and that will encourage the legacy auto manufacturers to follow suit.
by making cars more software depended. Tesla is contributing to in big way. not to mention burning more tires than much lighter ICE cars.
03-12-2020, 09:48 AM
#342
Ex-OEM King
No, you really should drive an EV, it's clear that you haven't spent any time in them. Dual motor EVs are safer than ICE vehicles in general but also in the snow. A dual motor EV is a capable of way more precise traction control, since there's a motor for each axle much better than an ICE vehicle could ever do. A digital EV motor can detect and respond to loss of grip much faster than a combustion engine.
https://youtu.be/qJesZgW0Rlk
https://youtu.be/qJesZgW0Rlk
Most AWD cars these days can precisely deliver torque front and back already, the EV's just have an easier time doing it.
Stop talking.
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Comfy (03-12-2020)
03-14-2020, 07:27 AM
#343
AZ Community Team
Clear? i spent enough time driving a model 3 base and Model X P100D... probably more seat time than most of the ppl here.
Now, i have not spent any time driving on ice since we do not have any. But i can tell you that even in rain, it was very easy to lose traction if you are not careful with the "gas" pedal. And how is your argument relevant to what i said about the danger of having that much instant torque over icy/snow condition?
In icy condition, you can detect whatever you want, once you start sliding, it is game over. AWD, 2WD or 8WD wont even save you. Having that much instant torque will do just that. Snow tires and chains will help.
Now, i have not spent any time driving on ice since we do not have any. But i can tell you that even in rain, it was very easy to lose traction if you are not careful with the "gas" pedal. And how is your argument relevant to what i said about the danger of having that much instant torque over icy/snow condition?
In icy condition, you can detect whatever you want, once you start sliding, it is game over. AWD, 2WD or 8WD wont even save you. Having that much instant torque will do just that. Snow tires and chains will help.
Although Tesla's have open diff's they also use wheel braking to achieve great results in static/dynamic transition friction situation.
Again a electric traction control is far easier and more effective than a ICE traction control. There's alot more mechanical inertia in a ICE drivetrain, and the cutting torque is not as easy as the electric.
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Comfy (03-14-2020)
03-14-2020, 07:59 AM
#344
AZ Community Team
+1, yeah I thought the chemistry behind the battery and how Tesla does their overall battery inegration was very well done.
Explained their technical advantage there.
+1, I enjoyed it too, I thought it shows all aspects of Tesla.
Explained their technical advantage there.
Wow, Finally got time to watch the whole thing. That was a really good video showing what Tesla is about in a nutshell. I liked that they showed the good part, dark part, as well as the growing pains / human side of Tesla (and Elon) in a balanced way. Very entertaining to watch. Thanks.
03-14-2020, 06:54 PM
#345
A-TSX Oldie
Tesla's like most cars have traction control which is much easier to control a electric vehicle vs a ICE vehicle. So the wheel speed sensors will limit the torque, from what I've read Tesla's do very well in slick conditions (wet, snow, and ice).
Although Tesla's have open diff's they also use wheel braking to achieve great results in static/dynamic transition friction situation.
Again a electric traction control is far easier and more effective than a ICE traction control. There's alot more mechanical inertia in a ICE drivetrain, and the cutting torque is not as easy as the electric.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbaNQQaFrnE
Although Tesla's have open diff's they also use wheel braking to achieve great results in static/dynamic transition friction situation.
Again a electric traction control is far easier and more effective than a ICE traction control. There's alot more mechanical inertia in a ICE drivetrain, and the cutting torque is not as easy as the electric.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbaNQQaFrnE
Tires become a much more important factor at that point than whatever electronic gizmos anyone has. Heck, your own linked video has the Model X sliding down the icy hill - what good is instant cutoff of torque there?
03-14-2020, 10:03 PM
#346
The EV koolaid needs to be reined in. Those "mechanical inertia" will be the same wheels/tires/brakes system between ICE and EVs. If too much torque is applied to the wheels and they start to spin, it does not matter if the EV can detect it and send a command to the motors to stop producing torque 20ms faster than a conventional ICE traction control. By that time, you have zero traction and even with zero torque you will be sliding/spinning.
Tires become a much more important factor at that point than whatever electronic gizmos anyone has. Heck, your own linked video has the Model X sliding down the icy hill - what good is instant cutoff of torque there?
Tires become a much more important factor at that point than whatever electronic gizmos anyone has. Heck, your own linked video has the Model X sliding down the icy hill - what good is instant cutoff of torque there?
03-15-2020, 08:47 AM
#347
AZ Community Team
The EV koolaid needs to be reined in. Those "mechanical inertia" will be the same wheels/tires/brakes system between ICE and EVs. If too much torque is applied to the wheels and they start to spin, it does not matter if the EV can detect it and send a command to the motors to stop producing torque 20ms faster than a conventional ICE traction control. By that time, you have zero traction and even with zero torque you will be sliding/spinning.
Tires become a much more important factor at that point than whatever electronic gizmos anyone has. Heck, your own linked video has the Model X sliding down the icy hill - what good is instant cutoff of torque there?
Tires become a much more important factor at that point than whatever electronic gizmos anyone has. Heck, your own linked video has the Model X sliding down the icy hill - what good is instant cutoff of torque there?
The ability to have instant torque management of a EV is a tremendous advantage over a ICE, S/W can also adapt torque management in slippery situations to be limited torque for future management then gradually allow it to gain until full torque can be used again.
You obviously did not listen to the video, at 2:28 they clearly state all the electronic aids have been turned off hence the reason it can't climb the 30% grade icey hill (on the left tires only). At 3:18, they turn on all the electronic and S/W back on and it easily climbs the hill even with open diffs, becuase it used the spinning wheels brakes to stop the wheel and allow the other tire with static friction (hence no spinning) to drive the X up the hill. Watch the video again listen to the technical explanation.
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Comfy (03-16-2020)
03-16-2020, 12:40 PM
#348
Team Owner
Did you watch the video fully before commenting? The part when Model X slides down the icy hill was with all the safety systems turned off. When they turn on the control systems a few seconds later the same model X climbed the same icy hill without issue. I agree with the rest of your reasoning, but what you cited as an example was a poor one since it actually disproves your point.
Like i said, the moment you start sliding... Tesla could have 8WD with traction control x10, it means nothing... that is the same for normal cars as well.
The whole point is not let it slide in the first place.... if you know what you are doing, you will know what to do with either EV or ICE cars.
I suspect that will not be the case when more EV are on the road, there is a good % of ppl really should not be on the road.
Now instead of 150hp with 130lbs of torque, they have 400 lbs of torque at 0 rpm....
That is the point i was trying to make.
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Comfy (03-16-2020)
03-16-2020, 03:41 PM
#349
Ex-OEM King
In icy condition Tires> all nanny stuff....
Like i said, the moment you start sliding... Tesla could have 8WD with traction control x10, it means nothing... that is the same for normal cars as well.
The whole point is not let it slide in the first place.... if you know what you are doing, you will know what to do with either EV or ICE cars.
I suspect that will not be the case when more EV are on the road, there is a good % of ppl really should not be on the road.
Now instead of 150hp with 130lbs of torque, they have 400 lbs of torque at 0 rpm....
That is the point i was trying to make.
Like i said, the moment you start sliding... Tesla could have 8WD with traction control x10, it means nothing... that is the same for normal cars as well.
The whole point is not let it slide in the first place.... if you know what you are doing, you will know what to do with either EV or ICE cars.
I suspect that will not be the case when more EV are on the road, there is a good % of ppl really should not be on the road.
Now instead of 150hp with 130lbs of torque, they have 400 lbs of torque at 0 rpm....
That is the point i was trying to make.
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Comfy (03-16-2020)
03-16-2020, 10:44 PM
#350
This. Every day of the week and twice on Sundays. My VW Golf does better in snow/ice than my lifted Jeep on big ass all terrain tires with locking diffs for one reason and one reason alone, snow tires.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KmxHfYHXsA&t=700s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KmxHfYHXsA&t=700s
The only issue I have is with the titles of the video. It states " Are Tesla any good in snow' or even "Tesla Vs Land Rover", which is totally irrelevant to the video itself. It should read "All season tires vs snow tires in snow". Otherwise both of the cars should have snow tires (or all seasons) to make a valid comparison between their AWD systems.
Last edited by Comfy; 03-16-2020 at 10:46 PM.
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Legend2TL (03-17-2020)
03-17-2020, 12:21 AM
#351
Model X even with 1/3 tow (about 700kg) capacity was producing 30% range with speed limit and lack of air-conditioning.
Lexus GX towing 1700kg only losses 50% efficiency. Lexus GX has much quieter ride and better resale value with long life tires.
https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-...recap.htmlWhen we left, the predictive range meter said the Model X would arrive in Lone Pine with a battery surplus of 27 percent. But that began dropping soon after we got underway, and at a quarter of the way there, it had fallen to 20 percent. I turned the air conditioning off to save energy, but the Model X's weird glass roof made this miserable.
It didn't seem to help as the meter kept dropping into the teens. At one-third distance, the projected battery life had dropped to 14 percent as the Inyokern turnoff sign appeared
It seems to me the Model X is best suited for local towing that does not involve Supercharger stops and road-trip distances. But you could easily tow a boat from your home to a local boat ramp. Or you could be like the guy I met that uses a Model X to tow a horse trailer 30 miles to the riding area he frequents.
But forget about trying to get out of town to go camping in the mountains for the weekend. We spent too much time on the road and not enough time at the campsite
It didn't seem to help as the meter kept dropping into the teens. At one-third distance, the projected battery life had dropped to 14 percent as the Inyokern turnoff sign appeared
It seems to me the Model X is best suited for local towing that does not involve Supercharger stops and road-trip distances. But you could easily tow a boat from your home to a local boat ramp. Or you could be like the guy I met that uses a Model X to tow a horse trailer 30 miles to the riding area he frequents.
But forget about trying to get out of town to go camping in the mountains for the weekend. We spent too much time on the road and not enough time at the campsite
Lexus GX towing 1700kg only losses 50% efficiency. Lexus GX has much quieter ride and better resale value with long life tires.
https://www.edmunds.com/lexus/gx-460...8552244494336/
We have owned the vehicle for a year now and towed a 3,500lb camper over a thousand miles on two occasions. The truck doesn't mind a bit and transports its occupants in style and comfort.
A couple caveats:
1) We have seen significantly better mileage using premium fuel, not sure why.
2) It returns about 9-12 MPG when towing our camper
We have owned the vehicle for a year now and towed a 3,500lb camper over a thousand miles on two occasions. The truck doesn't mind a bit and transports its occupants in style and comfort.
A couple caveats:
1) We have seen significantly better mileage using premium fuel, not sure why.
2) It returns about 9-12 MPG when towing our camper
03-17-2020, 08:19 AM
#352
AZ Community Team
All of us agree with the tire stuff already.
Good for you. I used to have a Golf in the past too.
The only issue I have is with the titles of the video. It states " Are Tesla any good in snow' or even "Tesla Vs Land Rover", which is totally irrelevant to the video itself. It should read "All season tires vs snow tires in snow". Otherwise both of the cars should have snow tires (or all seasons) to make a valid comparison between their AWD systems.
Good for you. I used to have a Golf in the past too.
The only issue I have is with the titles of the video. It states " Are Tesla any good in snow' or even "Tesla Vs Land Rover", which is totally irrelevant to the video itself. It should read "All season tires vs snow tires in snow". Otherwise both of the cars should have snow tires (or all seasons) to make a valid comparison between their AWD systems.
+1, also agree on the video. The title was totoally misleading with the "Tesla vs Land Rover", with only the Rover having snow tires.
As for the EV amount of torque and control, traction control on Tesla's work extremely well (probably mostly due to it's a EV). I've never drive a Tesla but been in a S dual motor with a very "sporty" driver a few times who floored the throttle from stop almost everytime, never even chirped the tires just very quick acceleration.
Tesla uses PID controller type to manage the torque. It's used ALOT in everyday world for many control systems (I used it once for thermal management of cooling fans for network equipment). Their patent for traction control system is online if you're interested, for a patent it's pretty well written,
https://patents.google.com/patent/US7747363B1/en
The advantages of using an all-wheel drive system in a vehicle are well known. In general, an all-wheel drive system improves traction, and thus safety, by allowing power to be sent to all four wheels, rather than just the front two or the rear two. Thus when traction is lost in one or more wheels, for example due to wet or icy road conditions, the drive system can increase the torque to the axle/wheels with traction.
A variety of control systems have been developed to detect tire slippage, i.e., wheel spin, and to redirect the available torque to the remaining wheels. These control systems range from simple hydraulic and mechanical systems to relatively sophisticated electronic control systems. For example, U.S. Pat. No. 4,589,511 describes a traction control system that uses wheel spin sensors to detect the spinning of a wheel or wheels, and an electronically controlled wheel braking system to prevent wheel spinning.
Many of the current traction control systems, while providing efficient traction control in a conventional vehicle utilizing a combustion engine drive train, are unsatisfactory for a hybrid or all-electric vehicle due to differences in vehicle weight and weight distribution, and more importantly differences in drive train torque and power capabilities. Accordingly, what is needed is a traction control system designed to meet the needs of such alternative fuel vehicles in general, and all-electric vehicles in particular. The present invention provides such a system.
A variety of control systems have been developed to detect tire slippage, i.e., wheel spin, and to redirect the available torque to the remaining wheels. These control systems range from simple hydraulic and mechanical systems to relatively sophisticated electronic control systems. For example, U.S. Pat. No. 4,589,511 describes a traction control system that uses wheel spin sensors to detect the spinning of a wheel or wheels, and an electronically controlled wheel braking system to prevent wheel spinning.
Many of the current traction control systems, while providing efficient traction control in a conventional vehicle utilizing a combustion engine drive train, are unsatisfactory for a hybrid or all-electric vehicle due to differences in vehicle weight and weight distribution, and more importantly differences in drive train torque and power capabilities. Accordingly, what is needed is a traction control system designed to meet the needs of such alternative fuel vehicles in general, and all-electric vehicles in particular. The present invention provides such a system.
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Comfy (03-17-2020)
03-18-2020, 07:03 AM
#353
Race Director
NEW YORK/BEIJING (Reuters) - Tesla Inc cannot continue to operate its main U.S. vehicle plant normally as its San Francisco Bay Area home began a three-week lockdown on Tuesday to slow the spread of coronavirus, a county sheriff's office spokesman said.
The comment relates to Tesla's factory in Fremont, Alameda County, which employs more than 10,000 workers and recorded annualized production of about 415,000 electric vehicles as at the end of December.
The order comes as Tesla ramps up production of its Model Y sport-utility vehicle at the factory. Billionaire Chief Executive Elon Musk has said the model will see higher demand than all of Tesla's other models combined.
Alameda is one of at least nine counties covered by a 'shelter in place' order that limits activity, travel and business functions to only the most essential, and advises people to stay home except for the most crucial reasons.
It is aimed at helping stem a pandemic which has affected nearly 200,000 people worldwide and killed more than 100 in the United States including 12 in California.
The order will be an additional headache for Tesla, which was forced to shut down its $2 billion Shanghai factory for 10 days on top of the traditional week-long Lunar New Year holiday this year due to the rapidly spreading coronavirus.
"Tesla is not an essential business as defined in the Alameda County Health Order. Tesla can maintain minimum basic operations per the Alameda County Health Order," the spokesman said.
Under the order announced Monday afternoon, businesses deemed non-essential can only maintain minimum basic operations, such as maintaining the value of inventory, ensuring security and processing payroll and employee benefits. Violations or failure to comply is punishable by fine, imprisonment, or both.
The spokesman said his office had not spoken to Tesla since implementing the order, which takes effect from Tuesday.
Tesla did not respond to a Reuters request for comment. Its share price fell 5.1% in after-hours trade on Tuesday.
The order is the latest to hit the global auto industry, which has taken a major hit from the outbreak.
The Big Three Detroit automakers - General Motors Co, Ford Motor Co and Fiat Chrysler Automobiles NV - and the United Auto Workers union agreed Tuesday to curtail production at U.S. factories and limit the number of workers on the job at one time.
Prior to the county's order, Tesla had told employees in an email that the automaker and its suppliers would continue operations supporting manufacturing and vehicle delivery, a person who had seen the email told Reuters.
In another memo on Monday, Musk told employees he was not aware of any workers who had tested positive for the virus, and urged them to stay home if they felt the "slightest bit ill or even uncomfortable", people familiar with the matter told Reuters.
The comment relates to Tesla's factory in Fremont, Alameda County, which employs more than 10,000 workers and recorded annualized production of about 415,000 electric vehicles as at the end of December.
The order comes as Tesla ramps up production of its Model Y sport-utility vehicle at the factory. Billionaire Chief Executive Elon Musk has said the model will see higher demand than all of Tesla's other models combined.
Alameda is one of at least nine counties covered by a 'shelter in place' order that limits activity, travel and business functions to only the most essential, and advises people to stay home except for the most crucial reasons.
It is aimed at helping stem a pandemic which has affected nearly 200,000 people worldwide and killed more than 100 in the United States including 12 in California.
The order will be an additional headache for Tesla, which was forced to shut down its $2 billion Shanghai factory for 10 days on top of the traditional week-long Lunar New Year holiday this year due to the rapidly spreading coronavirus.
"Tesla is not an essential business as defined in the Alameda County Health Order. Tesla can maintain minimum basic operations per the Alameda County Health Order," the spokesman said.
Under the order announced Monday afternoon, businesses deemed non-essential can only maintain minimum basic operations, such as maintaining the value of inventory, ensuring security and processing payroll and employee benefits. Violations or failure to comply is punishable by fine, imprisonment, or both.
The spokesman said his office had not spoken to Tesla since implementing the order, which takes effect from Tuesday.
Tesla did not respond to a Reuters request for comment. Its share price fell 5.1% in after-hours trade on Tuesday.
The order is the latest to hit the global auto industry, which has taken a major hit from the outbreak.
The Big Three Detroit automakers - General Motors Co, Ford Motor Co and Fiat Chrysler Automobiles NV - and the United Auto Workers union agreed Tuesday to curtail production at U.S. factories and limit the number of workers on the job at one time.
Prior to the county's order, Tesla had told employees in an email that the automaker and its suppliers would continue operations supporting manufacturing and vehicle delivery, a person who had seen the email told Reuters.
In another memo on Monday, Musk told employees he was not aware of any workers who had tested positive for the virus, and urged them to stay home if they felt the "slightest bit ill or even uncomfortable", people familiar with the matter told Reuters.
03-18-2020, 09:17 AM
#354
Ex-OEM King
All of us agree with the tire stuff already.
Good for you. I used to have a Golf in the past too.
The only issue I have is with the titles of the video. It states " Are Tesla any good in snow' or even "Tesla Vs Land Rover", which is totally irrelevant to the video itself. It should read "All season tires vs snow tires in snow". Otherwise both of the cars should have snow tires (or all seasons) to make a valid comparison between their AWD systems.
Good for you. I used to have a Golf in the past too.
The only issue I have is with the titles of the video. It states " Are Tesla any good in snow' or even "Tesla Vs Land Rover", which is totally irrelevant to the video itself. It should read "All season tires vs snow tires in snow". Otherwise both of the cars should have snow tires (or all seasons) to make a valid comparison between their AWD systems.
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Comfy (03-18-2020)
03-18-2020, 12:02 PM
#355
.
03-18-2020, 01:28 PM
#356
Ex-OEM King
03-18-2020, 02:33 PM
#357
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Mizouse (03-18-2020)
03-18-2020, 03:01 PM
#358
stock price is reflection of growth potential. Like Google, Amazon, Apple. they are digital companies or extensively or wholly depended on cheap labor in Asia for parts.
This does not apply to Tesla. other legacy automakers have a lot of liabilities.
This does not apply to Tesla. other legacy automakers have a lot of liabilities.
03-18-2020, 04:36 PM
#359
03-26-2020, 01:56 PM
#360
Gm and Ford are still planning to fool around with compliance electric vehicles.
GM and Ford’s EV production plans for the US have leaked, and they are a joke. We are not talking about the next 2-3 years. This is supposed to be in 2026. Will they be around in ten years?
It appears that Tesla will remain the only serious electric car maker in the United States for quite some time. This is because despite the grand gestures and proclamations of an electric car-centric future from American automakers General Motors and Ford, the two companies’ actual production plans for North America are still centered on large, internal combustion-powered vehicles.
According to detailed production plans from GM and Ford that were viewed by Reuters, the two biggest American automakers will be making 5 million petrol-powered SUVs and pickup trucks in 2026, and only 320,000 electric vehicles. That’s just about 5% of Ford and GM’s combined vehicle production in North America, and less than Tesla’s output in 2019 from its one factory in Fremont, CA.
Putting it mildly, a production target of 320,000 electric vehicles in 2026 is a joke. Both companies, after all, have been insisting that they are all-in on an electric car push. Earlier this month, GM CEO Mary Barra announced a $20 billion project to bring a million EVs to market by the middle of the 2020s, though most of these vehicles will be sold in China. Ford is the same, with Executive Chairman Bill Ford stating that the company is “all-in” on an electric car push.
If GM and Ford’s production plans for North America are any indication, it appears that a lot of these optimistic EV-centric statements may be just that: statements, and nothing more. According to data from AutoForecast Solutions, GM and Ford’s North American production of SUV models will outpace traditional cars by over 8:1 in 2026. Among these SUVs, 93% will be petrol-powered.
Reuters noted that AutoForecast’s data is based on planning information provided to suppliers by the carmakers themselves. Interestingly enough, Ford and GM executives did not dispute the accuracy of the data when they were interviewed by the publication. On the contrary, Hau Thai-Tang, Ford’s chief product development and purchasing officer, argued that the strategy simply makes sense. “We’re trying to time this with the natural demand of consumers (so) we’re not forced to do artificial things, and we don’t violate the laws of economics,” he said.
Doug Parks, GM’s executive vice president of global product development, purchasing, and supply chain, was on the same page. “We want to meet customer demand with the best possible (carbon) footprint on the planet to help improve the CO2 (carbon dioxide) situation,” he said.
Considering these statements, it seems almost strange that the Big Two American automakers have been announcing their supposed dedication towards electrification. For AutoForecast vice president Sam Fiorani, this is most likely motivated by Ford and GM’s desire to placate Wall Street, which expects EVs to become mainstream in the near future.
“GM and Ford understand that buyers want more SUVs and trucks, but they’re also trying to play to Wall Street, which thinks the future is all about electric vehicles. The Detroit automakers would love to get a little of that Tesla magic and money,” he said.
With such a strategy in place for North America, Ford and GM’s upcoming electric cars risk becoming yet another generation of compliance cars. This is a shame, as some EVs announced by the two automakers have the potential to cause some serious disruptions in the auto market. Among these is the Ford Mustang Mach-E, a vehicle that matches the Tesla Model Y on paper, and the GMC Hummer EV, a monster of a pickup that can be a rival to Tesla’s Cybertruck.
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-gm-f...-plans-leaked/
It appears that Tesla will remain the only serious electric car maker in the United States for quite some time. This is because despite the grand gestures and proclamations of an electric car-centric future from American automakers General Motors and Ford, the two companies’ actual production plans for North America are still centered on large, internal combustion-powered vehicles.
According to detailed production plans from GM and Ford that were viewed by Reuters, the two biggest American automakers will be making 5 million petrol-powered SUVs and pickup trucks in 2026, and only 320,000 electric vehicles. That’s just about 5% of Ford and GM’s combined vehicle production in North America, and less than Tesla’s output in 2019 from its one factory in Fremont, CA.
Putting it mildly, a production target of 320,000 electric vehicles in 2026 is a joke. Both companies, after all, have been insisting that they are all-in on an electric car push. Earlier this month, GM CEO Mary Barra announced a $20 billion project to bring a million EVs to market by the middle of the 2020s, though most of these vehicles will be sold in China. Ford is the same, with Executive Chairman Bill Ford stating that the company is “all-in” on an electric car push.
If GM and Ford’s production plans for North America are any indication, it appears that a lot of these optimistic EV-centric statements may be just that: statements, and nothing more. According to data from AutoForecast Solutions, GM and Ford’s North American production of SUV models will outpace traditional cars by over 8:1 in 2026. Among these SUVs, 93% will be petrol-powered.
Reuters noted that AutoForecast’s data is based on planning information provided to suppliers by the carmakers themselves. Interestingly enough, Ford and GM executives did not dispute the accuracy of the data when they were interviewed by the publication. On the contrary, Hau Thai-Tang, Ford’s chief product development and purchasing officer, argued that the strategy simply makes sense. “We’re trying to time this with the natural demand of consumers (so) we’re not forced to do artificial things, and we don’t violate the laws of economics,” he said.
Doug Parks, GM’s executive vice president of global product development, purchasing, and supply chain, was on the same page. “We want to meet customer demand with the best possible (carbon) footprint on the planet to help improve the CO2 (carbon dioxide) situation,” he said.
Considering these statements, it seems almost strange that the Big Two American automakers have been announcing their supposed dedication towards electrification. For AutoForecast vice president Sam Fiorani, this is most likely motivated by Ford and GM’s desire to placate Wall Street, which expects EVs to become mainstream in the near future.
“GM and Ford understand that buyers want more SUVs and trucks, but they’re also trying to play to Wall Street, which thinks the future is all about electric vehicles. The Detroit automakers would love to get a little of that Tesla magic and money,” he said.
With such a strategy in place for North America, Ford and GM’s upcoming electric cars risk becoming yet another generation of compliance cars. This is a shame, as some EVs announced by the two automakers have the potential to cause some serious disruptions in the auto market. Among these is the Ford Mustang Mach-E, a vehicle that matches the Tesla Model Y on paper, and the GMC Hummer EV, a monster of a pickup that can be a rival to Tesla’s Cybertruck.
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-gm-f...-plans-leaked/