neuronbob

I have a colleague at work who has a 530i. He frequently ogles over my (CHEAPER) lowered TL and, last time we spoke, was interested in purchasing an '03 for his wife. Mayhap he'll consider an '04? I'll try to convert him--I offered him a test drive in my car already.

I'm an Apple Mac guy, so I know something about "evangelizing".

SFzip

German cars are prestiges, period. If I could afford a 2004 530i, then I would definitely get it over the 2004 TL. But I cannot, so it's a no-brainer for me to choose the TL.

Prestige is important to me, but so is the overall package. I had an opportunity to buy a demo (5,500 miles), 2003 530i w/18" rims for $38K but decided not to, because the 2004 TL offers much more for much less.

Another thing to consider on the new bimmers is that they will continue to use the current inline-6 engines. This is not at all a bad thing, but knowing that a new 275hp inline-6 will be in the 2006 model doesn't make me feel good about getting the 2004 model.

IMO, the biggest deal for the 2004 530i is the all aluminum front-end. The combination of an inline-6 and a manual transmission will yield a 50/50 weight distribution. The best the 2004 TL can do is 60/40. One thing that concerns me about the aluminum front-end is how much will it cost for repairs?

neuronbob

You have some good points, SFzip. However, I can afford a 530i, and yet find myself always gravitating towards the value of Acura cars. The fact I'm a Honda fan for the last 13 years obviously biases me, though.

Even so, the money I could spend for prestige can be invested in my mutual funds.

sinrup

You are right. I cannot wait until October! In the end the real test is going to be test driving the two cars. I will keep you guys posted of any progress. Thanks for your input!

jwaters943

I'd just like to chime in and say that as the previous owner of a 1997 528i, BMWs are very nice vehicles and have a certain "intangible" quality about them. With that said, I personally believe the 5 series and 3 series to be some of the most overrated vehicles on the market. They are nice cars, don't get me wrong, all I'm saying is nearly all reviewers bestow so much "hype" upon the cars that when you actually buy one you think it's going to be some magic carpet ride of fun. My bimmer had rattles, a crappy stereo, and a ride that never really felt nimble and sporty even though the car handled well. I guess it's all about perspective. Since owning the 528i, I've since bought a house and cut back on my automotive spending habits. I currently own a Passat, which, all reliablity issues aside, I feel is about 80-85% the car my BMW was at about 45% less cost.

With that said, the new 530i is truly for the luxury car buyer who has cash to blow. With all options it tops out at over $63k and is quite ugly, in my not so humble opinion. Optioned out like the TL, it would be around $53k. If the new TL is as good or as close to as good as we have been hearing, the TL is a no brainer if you can live with it's slightly less sporty FWD nature. I personally consider myself a car enthusiast, but would never financially strap myself just to drive a vehicle that was nicer. If you have the money then the only thing you need to do is test drive both and buy the one that fits your needs/wants/desires.

sinrup

You are absolutely correct. I had a 2003 tl type-s which I sold last week. I had this car for 1.5 year and 6000 miles and there is not one bad thing I can say about that car. It is just that my heart is out for BMR. I am just finding it hard to convince myself that it is worth all that extra money, especially after seeing and hearing all those good things about 2004TL.

stanleythecat

Intresting you guys are talking about converting from BMW to Acura. I was dead set on purchasing a 04 530i myself and once I saw the price list I had 2nd doubts. The one I wanted was in the area of 54K!

I then looked at my latest autoweek magazine, saw the review on the new TL, went to my local Acrua dealer, read about the new TL from fourm's like this and the rest is history. It's a "no brainer" as far as I can tell.

I ordered a 6 speed/Navi/HPT in silver & ebony!

Mine is due in November, waiting for the build date from my dealer.

I think that overall new TL offers MORE for LESS when you compare it to the new BMW 5.

neuronbob

It always did. Don't get me wrong, though, BMWs are beautiful cars. I actually like the looks of the current 3- and 5-series, and my friend with the 530 feels his car is very reliable. My neighbor two doors down has a new 745. Can't stand the iDrive, but it's a beautiful car. Can't wait to see his face when I pull up in an '04 TL.

SPUDMTN

Umm...well...pretty bold comment considering YOU'VE NEVER HEARD THE TL SOUND SYSTEM BEFORE! Seriously...I know you like Lexus, but don't judge the system before you've even heard it--auto reviews are saying that the new TL's ELS sound system is awesome--superior to the Mark Levinson systems featured in Lexus models...get used to hearing it And when Oct. 6 rolls around, go check out the 2004 TL and listen to the ELS sound system. If you don't think it's that great, no one's gonna force you to buy a TL.

Raheel

Wow, Many Reviewers joked on how funny it is that the TL is Compared to the 5 Series by Acura, But Looking at this forum, It looks as though people are seriously considering the TL over the 5 Series because its the best bang for the buck

Raheel

Did you forget the MSRP for the Q45, XLR, and Deville are more close to MSRP of the new RL coming out?

Did forget those cars compete with RL?

I mean I would understand if you were mad if the THE NEW RL didn't come with ventilated seats, but dont expect it on the TL

ben1233

Exactly what I was thinking!

About the video: Did the aspect ratio seem a little off? It seemed as if the car was really long and "squatty." It just looked....different.

EmuMessenger

Perhaps. My post had less to do about the TL and more to do about razzing CAPS guy.

You haven't heard me say I wish the TL had a trunk like an Avalon, right?

blkngld

To put it another way, only the people seriously considering the TL over the 5 Series are going to be posting on this forum.

Realistically, those that have dismissed it or aren't giving it a chance aren't going to bother coming here to tell us that.

I drove an 03 530i and have to say it was the best test drive I've ever had. I just am don't like the cost of admission. But if I could pick a car, any car, that would be it. That said, I have a strong dislike for the new ones. To my eyes, they look like a bavarian Grand Am. I thought the E class was way overpriced, but if I had to coin to outfit an 04 5 series 'properly', I'd look at MB instead. JMHO.

I think Justin's statement of the BMW-TL-Accord value proposition was spot on. Especially when it comes to the question of an TL being 10k better than an Accord V6. We all define 'value' differently.

VtecMW

Yup, as soon as the TL moves up into the $50K+ price range. This should be available on the sixth generation TL.

Anyone have spy photos?

lakeman

Anyone heard when the brochures are showing up? I think they are due next week. If someone gets one, I would like their impression of the Abyss blue compared to current blues. My hope is that it is somewhere between the Eternal and the Aegean.

On order 04 TL Abyss/quartz 6MT

EmuMessenger

No flaming please..... Did anyone on the ride and drive happen to open the glove comparment or center console to compare size?

I also remember reading somewhere that there would not be a roof-mounted sunglass holder, but it is going to be in the door somewhere?

VtecMW

RJC RSX

the arm rest looks HUGE, so one can infer a large storage space there.

EmuMessenger

Man... You are at my throat today...

VtecMW

It's alright. Let's keep it civilized and mature. This isn't :ghey:-TL.com!

larchmont

Thanks as usual for all the great info, Justin.

I know this goes back a ways (p. 9 on this thread), but, as someone who always wonders about "methodology" I couldn't help asking:

Since you didn't sit in the back (as you had mentioned earlier on that same page), how did you have "personal ratings" on this? I imagine maybe this means some of your ratings were based on what you heard from other people, rather than what you observed personally?

Also: No surprise, I think I disagree with what you said about TL not being that much bigger of a car than the TSX. I don't want to make a big thing about this since I've already made my point on this, at least as much as I should before I actually try the car, and anyway it's obviously subjective what we mean by "not that much bigger," but.... It would seem that the most meaningful criterion for "not that much bigger" would be, not enough bigger to affect the feeling and handling. And, you seem to acknowledge that the TL's handling won't quite match that of the TSX. I just wonder, if the TL's handling isn't as good, wouldn't that have to be basically because it's BIGGER? And wouldn't that in turn mean that we'd have to consider the size difference significant???? (No need to answer; I'm basically just thinking out loud.)


BTW: Regarding significance of the size difference, my guess is the width difference would contribute much more than the length difference.

justinjsw

I was the driver of the TL when we left the hotel to go over to the fairgrounds for testing...thats what I meant by I didn't sit in the back. I did sit in the back of the one they had in the meeting room. Just long enough to see what it felt like but not long enough to remember if the car had a hump in the center. Is that more clear?

After close to a yr of posting I don't recall having post something I have heard from someone else.

I have no further comments on your thoughts in regards to size issues. The handling is MUCH better than the current TL and CAN come VERY close to the TSX. So rather the TL is 2.95" longer or 2.99" longer is really besides the point.

Colin

Larch,

First of all, I need to step up to the plate and mention that I was wrong about the length of the car. I really thought 189-190 was what it would be.

Regarding expected handling comparisons to the TSX. I would assume (this without seeing or driving the car yet) that the TSX has a more favorable "tire width to weight ratio" To me this, along with the much heavier engine up front, will take its toll on handling, though the HPT package should tip the scales back in favor of the TL.

larchmont

Huh???

I know I split hairs, but neither I nor anybody else was talking about anything like that.

It seems you missed the point. I didn't say anything about the amount of the difference. That was an OLD debate, before we knew what the difference is. Now, we DO know, and it is what it is.....

I was just saying: If the TL handles less well than the TSX, and if this is because of it being bigger than the TSX (which I would think it HAS to be, unless somebody can suggest another possible reason), wouldn't we have to say that the size difference is significant?

As I also said, no need to answer -- I was mostly just thinking out loud. And indeed it doesn't matter to anybody but us "theoreticians."

larchmont

Actually I think you were right in an overall sense. The length is less than most people thought, but the width is significantly more. (I know that most people aren't convinced that 2 or 3 inches of extra width is worth thinking about -- but there's no way that can be right, because if it were, Honda/Acura wouldn't have gone to the trouble of creating such an unusually-proportioned car.) So, you were right about the overall size of the car.

But what NOBODY anticipated was that the proportions would be so unusual.

What I'd love to see is some analysis of how the unusualness of the proportions affects the car -- the handling, the sportiness (or lack thereof), the experience of the interior, perhaps the aerodynamics. It surprises me that this, which is arguably the most striking and innovative aspect of the car, has gone essentially without comment. Honda/Acura usually know what they are doing, and what they did here was create an extremely unusually proportioned car -- in fact, a uniquely proportioned car. And obviously they had something in mind. The question is -- What was it? And, does it work? And how does it affect the aspects that we care about?

I know Justin isn't too interested in this question, and maybe not too many other people are either. But it's the first thing I'm going to be trying to figure out when I try the car. And I doubt I'll get very far, because I just don't know enough about cars. But I wish some of our more knowledgeable people could get interested in this too.

ryder1650

How can you assume that this car lacks sportiness. I mean only Justin and Kurt Bradley have driven it, and from what they say it is sporty. Plus, Justin says it handling is VERY comprable to the TSX. The way I take it is that the majority of people cannot tell the difference in the handling unless they take both the cars to a cone course and try them out. The wider stance may be the reason why the handling is improved from the last TL, and if I am not mistaken, the handling problem was one of the main qualms people had about the last gen TL. Why would Honda give the car such unusual proportions if it adversely effects the performance of the car. I mean, its common sense that with Acura's new mentality of sportier cars (with the RSX and the TSX), that they want the TL to be as sporty. Plus, it will always be true that smaller cars will handle better than larger, but Honda is trying to offset this with a wider stance. OCT. 6TH IS THREE WEEKS FROM TODAY!!!!!

VtecMW

Colin, I thought it would be about 189" as well. I was going purely from the Concept TL I saw at the New York Auto Show. I think Acura shaved a few inches from the front of the Concept. We all know that the TL lost a few inches in the rear.

VtecMW

Larch, I haven't given it one thought, aside from the comments I've seen you make about it. Yes, the TL is a wide car. I think one of the reasons for such unusual dimensions could largely be attributed to the competition.

Let's look at this:

Previous Gen TL:

Objective: Offer a value priced near luxury sedan for those looking for BMW and Audi amenities

Pros: "Superior" value/price, quality, reliability, refinement

Cons: Styling, performance, handling namely, leaves a lot to be desired

Current Gen TL

Objective: Elevate the TL's competitive position, offer superior amenities and features

Pros (speculative): "Exceptional" value/price, reliability, styling, refinement, features and amenities

Cons (perceived/speculative): FWD, smaller interior/cargo volume, anything else you wish to add here.

So why make it wide? If Acura expects to be considered a legitimate competitor to the BMW 3-Series, Infiniti G35, Mercedes, etc. from a performance standpoint, it probably required some creative engineering to match or exceed the handling characteristics of the competition.

A wider stance makes the car flatter. What's the biggest knock against FWD cars? Everyone say it at once "Understeer"! What does understeer produce? A car that leans at the limit. So, making the TL wider makes it less prone to lean. Making it shorter translates into less rear end to carry around during cornering. And from what I would imagine, less susceptibility to leaning. Remember, in some reviews, understeer on the TL is only noted at the limit.

Anyway, that's just a theory I have. I'm not an engineer. We'll see how well this formula works then the comparisons come out. Based on the initial reviews, we know that the TL's handling characteristics have been well received.

larchmont

Hey, ryder, you misunderstood me.

I'm trying really hard to shut up for a while, at least until I try the car, but it's hard. It never ceases to amaze me how easy it is for people to misunderstand stuff. Maybe my next obsession should be about how every problem in the world starts with a simple misunderstanding. (Maybe it does?)

I never said the car lacks sportiness. I just noted that JUSTIN said the TL's handling probably won't equal the TSX's, and I said the main possible reason for that would seem to be the larger size. I also said the size of a car AFFECTS qualities such as sportiness -- but so do other factors.

And I wondered how the unusual proportions affect the characteristics of the car. There must be some effect -- maybe positive or negative, maybe neither positive nor negative but just something subtle -- and I'm just wondering what those effects are.

Honda/Acura has created a very unusually-proportioned car. They must have had reasons -- reasons that translate into how the car is. And I'm wondering what that amounts to.

Actually, ryder's post does begin to address this subject. I hope other people will too, and I hope that soon we'll have some solid impressions about this.


Edit: I see Vtec is addressing this too. Sounds great to me.

ryder1650

Hmmm, Ok. All I say is lets put this topic, specifically, aside until October 6th.

Colin

I submit that the car is wide because Acura learned something from the MDX. This is only 188 long and 77 wide! This offers 3 wide seating in the middle row without making a "huge" car.

The "incidental" benefits were better handling due to the wider track. Didn't I notice that the car uses an aluminium subframe up front? I'm sure this contributes to better weight distrubution. FWIW, the original 3.2 TL (1995 1/2 to 1998) used some aluminum up front while the 2.5 used steel.

larchmont

Yes indeed, Justin -- Thanks! Sorry to have doubted it even for a second -- My bad!!!!

JeffPhx

I would have to agree here. The car shunk over 6 inches in length, but by making it wider and taller you can make the passenger space as large or larger, or at least appear to be as roomy. This added width and height also helped add cubic feet to the total interior volume therefore offsetting the loss in length for overall space.

larchmont

OK, we're getting two separate theories here -- the reason the car is wider is either to give more interior room, or to improve the handling. Depending on how brilliant Honda/Acura is, maybe it's truly BOTH.

About the handling part -- This discussion is clarifying something that we might sometimes forget, that "handling" isn't just one thing, it involves various different aspects. VtecMW says that maybe a reason to make the TL wider was that this could reduce body lean, and it sounds like he's right. But, that wouldn't cover "nimbleness" in a more general sense, and it does seem that this part of it would almost have to be adversely affected by greater width. Anyway, it does seem to me that even with just a few posts on this, we're closing in on what this "wide" stuff is about and how it might affect the car. I don't know about you, but even without having driven the car, I'm getting more and more of a "hands-on" feel for the car through these discussions, although of course not with total confidence about its accuracy.

I love this stuff!

acura_driver

Well, in the overall scheme of things I don't think a couple of inches in width (and f/r track) is going to make a huge difference in handling. Though all else being equal, IMHO it would improve the handling some.

I believe effects due to the suspension, tires, the center of gravity, polar moment of inertia, body rigidity, weight, and steering, could easily make a much larger difference in the handling, and/or sportiness.

I think that the 6MT with the A-Spec tires/wheels/springs will handle very well, with a sacrifice in ride comfort. The 5AT version should still handle better than the TL-S and CL-S based on the wider tires and other revisions, including width.

Even for people where FWD is a negative, myself included, there are a lot of pluses for the 04TL.

-r

VtecMW

I don't know how much of a difference two inches makes in the agility of a car. I don't think it's going to be a lumbering car, because the car is shorter, with relatively good weight distribution, and a wide stance.

The slalom numbers show that the TL is a relatively nimble car, so I don't think the dimensions make it all that unusual.

It's obvious that Acura had some goals with making the TL as wide as it is. I don't think it's worth the mental energy trying to determine the logic behind increasing width 2 inches.

larchmont

Despite the mild bitching about my fascination over this , I think this is a great discussion, and that we're really pinning down what this car's going to be like.

BTW -- A lot of you keep saying "2 inches." First of all, every bit of difference can make a difference, or else they wouldn't pay attention to it, and you know they do. But anyway, it's not a question of "2 inches." Taking account of the shrunken length, the width difference is magnified.

The relative proportions of the car have been changed by a very great amount --
I would bet it's more than has ever been done on any car model, anywhere, ever.