Monthly Car Sales news
06-05-2012, 09:45 AM
#2922
Safety Car
Civic
Honda and Toyota continue to fight over the top compact sales slot in the month of May, with the 2012 Civic ultimately beating out its Corolla rival, and Ford’s Focus remaining a distant 3rd.
The Honda Civic earned its 1st place slot with 33,490 sales in May 2012, an 82.6% year-over-year increase over May 2011, which was affected by production supply issues caused by last year’s earthquake in Japan. The sales boost helped the Civic pad its year-to-date stats, which stand at 135,082 through the end of May.
Though the Toyota Corolla might be 1 of the most dated vehicles in its class, it only gave up last month’s 1st place finish for a very respectable 2nd. Toyota moved 31,847 Corollas last month, bringing its year-to-date total to 125,079.
The Ford Focus, with 24,769 sales, again placed 3rd. Focus sales remained up, with an 11.1% increase versus last year, and a year-to-date total of 112,416. The Chevrolet Cruze still sits solidly in 4th place with the Hyundai Elantra nipping at its heels. Chevy managed to sell 19,613 Cruzes last month, a 13.6% decrease, while Hyundai sold 18,877 Elantras, a 5.6% decrease.
The outliers in May compact sales remain the Volkswagen Jetta and Mazda3. The Jetta remains in 6th place with 12,962 sales for the month, and 60,921 vehicles sold for the year. Mazda sold only 8474 Mazda3s last month, bringing its year-to-date total to 50,692.
PHP Code:
Car May 2012 Sales May 2011 Sales % Change YTD
Honda Civic 33,490 18,341 82.6 135,082
Toyota Corolla 31,847 16,985 87.5 125,079
Ford Focus 24,769 22,303 11.1 112,416
Chevrolet Cruze 19,613 22,711 -13.6 94,901
Hyundai Elantra 18,877 20,006 -5.6 80,114
Volkswagen Jetta 12,962 13,713 -5.5 60,921
Mazda3 8474 8789 -3.6 50,692
06-05-2012, 10:00 AM
#2923
AZ Community Team
While it could have been a better Civic (like it's Euro counterpart) it's amusing to see it's sales on top again.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 06-05-2012 at 10:03 AM.
06-05-2012, 10:18 AM
#2924
Toyota has Prius. so it does not need to spend so much in making upmarket Corrolla. There is no Corrolla Hybrid. on the lower end there is Yaris.
current Sentra is not in ranking but the new one should come in top 3.
current Sentra is not in ranking but the new one should come in top 3.
06-05-2012, 10:28 AM
#2925
Sales are largely due to huge incentives Honda's offering on the Civic (and Accord). They're pushing them out to make room for the new Civic (and Accord) that's coming in the fall.
I'm still receiving mailers and emails from local dealers that I've worked with in the past telling me about their "special" deals. Sure, this is good for sales #s, but bad for margins and profit.
I'm still receiving mailers and emails from local dealers that I've worked with in the past telling me about their "special" deals. Sure, this is good for sales #s, but bad for margins and profit.
06-05-2012, 10:32 AM
#2926
AZ Community Team
Sales are largely due to huge incentives Honda's offering on the Civic (and Accord). They're pushing them out to make room for the new Civic (and Accord) that's coming in the fall.
I'm still receiving mailers and emails from local dealers that I've worked with in the past telling me about their "special" deals. Sure, this is good for sales #s, but bad for margins and profit.
I'm still receiving mailers and emails from local dealers that I've worked with in the past telling me about their "special" deals. Sure, this is good for sales #s, but bad for margins and profit.
https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...postcount=2919<code style="white-space:nowrap"><code></code></code>
PHP Code:
<code style="white-space:nowrap"> <code> Average True Cost of Incentives® (TCISM) by Car Manufacturer
Manufacturer May-12 Apr-12 May-11 May 2012 vs Apr 2012 May 2012 vs May 2011
Chrysler $2,567 $2,535 $2,400 1.3% 7.0%
Ford $2,594 $2,373 $2,475 9.3% 4.8%
GM $3,417 $3,339 $3,245 2.3% 5.3%
Honda $1,207 $1,223 $983 -1.3% 22.8%
Nissan $2,260 $2,073 $2,221 9.0% 1.8%
Toyota $1,458 $1,374 $1,250 6.1% 16.6%
Industry $2,135 $2,055 $2,122 3.9% 0.6% </code></code>
Manufacturer May-12 Apr-12 May-11 May 2012 vs Apr 2012 May 2012 vs May 2011
Chrysler $2,567 $2,535 $2,400 1.3% 7.0%
Ford $2,594 $2,373 $2,475 9.3% 4.8%
GM $3,417 $3,339 $3,245 2.3% 5.3%
Honda $1,207 $1,223 $983 -1.3% 22.8%
Nissan $2,260 $2,073 $2,221 9.0% 1.8%
Toyota $1,458 $1,374 $1,250 6.1% 16.6%
Industry $2,135 $2,055 $2,122 3.9% 0.6% </code></code>
The following users liked this post:
TSX69 (06-05-2012)
06-05-2012, 11:23 AM
#2927
Good info. Too bad it's just the average and it's not broken down to what the incentives were for each model.
Honda could have offered higher incentive on the Civic and Accord while offering lower incentives on newer/recently redesigned and better selling models like the CR-V, Odysssey, etc to lower their average.
Honda could have offered higher incentive on the Civic and Accord while offering lower incentives on newer/recently redesigned and better selling models like the CR-V, Odysssey, etc to lower their average.
06-05-2012, 11:54 AM
#2928
Safety Car
Edmunds
Edmunds provides current incentives. Some of the highlights would be:
Accord: 0.9% financing & up to $1,250 dealer incentive
Civic: 0.9% finanacing & up to $500 dealer incentive
CrossTour: 0.9% finanacing & up to $2,000 dealer incentive
Toyota: Up to $500 rebate on all 2012 models
Nissan: Up to $500 rebate on all 2012 models
Hyundai: All models up to $500 rebate except ...
Equus: Up to $1,500 rebate; up to $2,000 dealer rebate
Genesis: Up to $1,500 rebate; up to $1,000 dealer rebate
Focus: Up to $500 rebate
Fusion: Up to $750 rebate
Chevrolet has way too much going on but 1 highlight ....
Malibu: Up to $3,000 rebate; 0% financing; up to $1,000 dealer incentive
Accord: 0.9% financing & up to $1,250 dealer incentive
Civic: 0.9% finanacing & up to $500 dealer incentive
CrossTour: 0.9% finanacing & up to $2,000 dealer incentive
Toyota: Up to $500 rebate on all 2012 models
Nissan: Up to $500 rebate on all 2012 models
Hyundai: All models up to $500 rebate except ...
Equus: Up to $1,500 rebate; up to $2,000 dealer rebate
Genesis: Up to $1,500 rebate; up to $1,000 dealer rebate
Focus: Up to $500 rebate
Fusion: Up to $750 rebate
Chevrolet has way too much going on but 1 highlight ....
Malibu: Up to $3,000 rebate; 0% financing; up to $1,000 dealer incentive
The following users liked this post:
AZuser (06-05-2012)
06-05-2012, 12:57 PM
#2930
WTF is a VW Eos? (looser list pg.72)
hmm, if I have to google it, no wonder it's a looser.:smitler:
hmm, if I have to google it, no wonder it's a looser.:smitler:
06-05-2012, 07:39 PM
#2931
Senior Moderator
The fact that one of the least attractive options in that segment, the Corolla is on top should tell you all you need to know about why the Civic is also selling well.
06-06-2012, 09:44 PM
#2933
Senior Moderator
Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not but you can somewhat judge a car based on sales figures. I think we'll all agree that the Civic and Corolla are good, reliable, fuel efficient and 'safe' purchases in the segment. Just doesn't mean they're the best in the segment.
The silver lining for Honda here is the potential sales of this car once it gets the improved interior, ED engines with better FE and hopefully improved exterior styling. Might be hard to keep on the lot.
The silver lining for Honda here is the potential sales of this car once it gets the improved interior, ED engines with better FE and hopefully improved exterior styling. Might be hard to keep on the lot.
06-07-2012, 07:47 AM
#2934
Safety Car
Top 10
May marked the return of the post-tsunami Japanese auto industry in general, but nowhere was that better represented than in the Toyota Camry.
Toyota sold just shy of 40,000 Camrys last month, besting its closest rival by almost 8,000 units. Of course, many midsize and compact non-premium sedans are regularly snapped up by fleets – primarily rental, corporate and government buyers – so this list doesn’t always paint the best picture of what vehicles are most likely to wind up in your neighbors’ driveways.
All of the top 10 saw improved volume compared to the year before, especially the Toyota and Honda models.
Otherwise, May was mostly a Who’s Who of regulars to this list. Just missing the top 10 were the Ford Focus (24,769), Ford Escape (23,077), Nissan Altima (22,690), Toyota Prius (21,477 including all variants) and the Hyundai Sonata (20,765).
The month’s best-selling European car was the Volkswagen Jetta, which was down 9% to 15,175.
The 10 best-selling vehicles of May 2012
1. Ford F-Series 54,836
2. Toyota Camry 39,571
3. Chevrolet Silverado 34,555
4. Honda Civic 33,490
5. Toyota Corolla (includes Matrix) 31,847
6. Honda Accord 29,737
7. Chevrolet Malibu 29,579
8. Ford Fusion 26,857
9. Ram Pickup 26,040
10. Honda CR-V 25,186
1. Ford F-Series 54,836
2. Toyota Camry 39,571
3. Chevrolet Silverado 34,555
4. Honda Civic 33,490
5. Toyota Corolla (includes Matrix) 31,847
6. Honda Accord 29,737
7. Chevrolet Malibu 29,579
8. Ford Fusion 26,857
9. Ram Pickup 26,040
10. Honda CR-V 25,186
06-07-2012, 11:53 AM
#2935
You'll Never Walk Alone
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Age: 37
Posts: 9,493
Received 835 Likes
on
519 Posts
Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not but you can somewhat judge a car based on sales figures. I think we'll all agree that the Civic and Corolla are good, reliable, fuel efficient and 'safe' purchases in the segment. Just doesn't mean they're the best in the segment.
The silver lining for Honda here is the potential sales of this car once it gets the improved interior, ED engines with better FE and hopefully improved exterior styling. Might be hard to keep on the lot.
The silver lining for Honda here is the potential sales of this car once it gets the improved interior, ED engines with better FE and hopefully improved exterior styling. Might be hard to keep on the lot.
In general you can tell how good a car is based on sales numbers...but...that's the always the case...like the Cavaliers and Sunfires.
And then sometimes you got some really good cars but somehow they just don't do too well in sales because they are mainly designed for other markets, supply is limited, or people simply are not interested.
06-21-2012, 08:34 AM
#2936
Safety Car
Lot Time
Newly launched sports cars from Subaru and Toyota, fuel-sipping hybrids and the usual suspects were among the fastest-selling vehicles in May, according to Edmunds.com's analysis.
Just on sale, the Subaru BRZ and Toyota's Scion FR-S, in that order, topped Edmunds.com's list of quickest-selling vehicles in May. The list is based on Edmunds.com's calculation of days-to-turn; that is, the number of days a vehicle sits at the dealership before it is sold. The BRZ took a scant 4 days to sell; the FR-S only 5 days. In other words, their tires barely hit the pavement before someone drove them home. By comparison, industry wide, it took an average of 53 days to sell a vehicle.
The pair of entry-level, rear-drive sports coupes, priced around $25,000, shares the same underpinnings and were jointly developed by Subaru and Toyota. The idea was to collaborate on affordable, back-to-basics, 2+2 sports cars to serve as halo models for the respective brands. The rear-drive-only BRZ provides Subaru with a sporty offering priced below the WRX. For Scion, the 86 harkens to the Toyota AE86, a moderately-priced sports car sold from 1983 to 1987 that served as the FR-S' design inspiration.
Manufactured by Subaru in Japan, the cars are winning rave reviews. Edmunds.com's enthusiast channel InsideLine.com concluded that the BRZ delivered "elegant control, engaging feedback and enlightening limits." InsideLine.com, which recently purchased an FR-S for its long-term test fleet, called the Toyota "1 of the most gratifying sports cars to come along in years."
The BRZ went on sale at the end of April. Toyota offered the first 86 FR-S buyers — selected via an online contest — a trip to California for test drives, demonstrations and track time in their new sports cars, before opening sales to the rest of the public. Neither car will be available in huge quantities because production is constrained, so quick getaways from dealerships — a little room for haggling — can be expected for some time. Toyota intends to sell 10,000 for 2012 and 20,000 in its 1st full year of sales next year. Subaru plans to sell 6,000 in the U.S. this year.
It's not unusual for newly launched models to be in short supply as buyers want to be the 1st on their block with the newest model and as automakers slowly gear up production. But the Subaru and Scion are joined by another little sports car, the Hyundai Veloster, which is also on the hot-selling list though it has been out for awhile. Priced at just under $18,000, the Veloster has been racking up sales of more than 3,000 a month for the past 4 months; May sales totaled 3,624 vehicles. The brisk sales and short supplies of this trio suggests that sports car sales, after plummeting to near nothing during the recession, are making a comeback, or at least sales of more affordable sports cars are bouncing back. Indeed, Hyundai forecasts that sales of compact sports cars like its Veloster will grow by 37% this year to 145,125 vehicles, from 105,591 in 2011.
And not surprisingly, there's quite a bit of cross-shopping among the 3. Consumers considering the Subaru BRZ most often shop it against the Scion FR-S, and vice versa, according to Edmunds.com data. For the BRZ, the Subaru WRX is the 2nd most cross-shopped vehicle. For the Scion FR-S, the Scion tC coupe is the 2nd. The Hyundai Veloster and Hyundai Genesis Coupe, which starts at around $23,000, also appear on the shopping lists of BRZ and FR-S intenders. So far, Veloster intenders have ranked the Honda CR-Z hybrid as No. 2 on their shopping list; the BRZ and FR-S have not shown up in the cross-shopping data yet, likely because they are so new to the market. Most Veloster buyers are coming from other Hyundai products, according to Edmunds.com's trade-in information. The most traded-in vehicle for the Veloster is Hyundai's own Elantra followed by the Sonata, with the Honda Civic being the 3rd most traded vehicle for a Veloster.
Another little sporty number, the new Golf R, a with a price starting around $34,000, also made the list of Top 20 fastest-selling cars. So too did the Audi TT RS and Audi TTS convertible, both of which start at more than $50,000.
May's list included other newcomers as well. They include the all-new: 2013 Acura ILX, a completely new entry-level model that costs and has 3 powertrain choices, including a hybrid; the 2013 Infiniti JX, which is an all-new 7-passenger SUV loaded with sophisticated technology; and the Mazda CX-5, a sporty, fuel-efficient crossover. The newest members of the Toyota Prius family have been in short supply and high demand since they were introduced earlier this year. In May, the entry-level Prius C sold in an average 10 days; the larger Prius V sold on average in about 18 days.
For its size, Audi often has an outsize number of vehicles on the quickest-selling vehicles. In May, 4 of the top 20 quickest selling models were Audi models. In addition to the TTS and TT RS, the Audi Q7 and Q5 sport utilities, both particularly popular with production-constrained diesel engines, made the quick-selling list — again. Audi plans to ease the shortage of Q5 SUVs with the construction of a new assembly plant in Mexico to be the only global source for the smaller ute. Another luxury make, BMW, had a couple of utilities on the quick-selling list: the freshened X6 and the South Carolina-built X3.
A far more high-volume brand, Hyundai always has models on the quickest selling list, leading industry observers to constantly question when Hyundai will build another U.S. plant. Hyundai has said it is increasing production at its Alabama plant. In addition to the Veloster, the Elantra and Accent, both redesigned this year, made the list of quick sellers.
Subaru's BRZ was joined by the revamped Impreza on the list. Brisk Impreza sales combined with the addition of the BRZ likely will propel Subaru to yet-another record year for sales, estimated by Subaru to come in at 320,000 vehicles in 2012. The revamped Honda CR-V, which was May's best-selling compact sport utility, made the list. And hardly new, the quirky Kia Soul, which has been selling at a pace of more than 10,000 a month, rounded out the Top 20.
No models from Detroit automakers made the top 20 list of fastest-selling vehicles in May.
06-21-2012, 03:57 PM
#2937
Senior Moderator
Depending on how well it's restyled (or not), the JX will take a hit when the new MDX hits showrooms. Surprising that those high volume Hyundais are hitting the asphalt so quickly.
06-21-2012, 06:56 PM
#2938
They seem to be flipping ILX's fast. I'm shocked. I actually thought the new RDX would make the list.
06-21-2012, 08:55 PM
#2939
Actually Honda incentive spending was decreased, it's still the lowest of the major brands also but they also had the largest sales increase as well (May year to year)
https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...postcount=2919<CODE style="WHITE-SPACE: nowrap"><CODE></CODE></CODE>
PHP Code:
Industry $2,135 $2,055 $2,122 3.9% 0.6%
https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...postcount=2919<CODE style="WHITE-SPACE: nowrap"><CODE></CODE></CODE>
PHP Code:
<CODE style="WHITE-SPACE: nowrap"><CODE>Average True Cost of Incentives® (TCISM) by Car Manufacturer
Manufacturer May-12 Apr-12 May-11 May 2012 vs Apr 2012 May 2012 vs May 2011
Chrysler $2,567 $2,535 $2,400 1.3% 7.0%
Ford $2,594 $2,373 $2,475 9.3% 4.8%
GM $3,417 $3,339 $3,245 2.3% 5.3%
Honda $1,207 $1,223 $983 -1.3% 22.8%
Nissan $2,260 $2,073 $2,221 9.0% 1.8%
Toyota $1,458 $1,374 $1,250 6.1% 16.6%
Chrysler $2,567 $2,535 $2,400 1.3% 7.0%
Ford $2,594 $2,373 $2,475 9.3% 4.8%
GM $3,417 $3,339 $3,245 2.3% 5.3%
Honda $1,207 $1,223 $983 -1.3% 22.8%
Nissan $2,260 $2,073 $2,221 9.0% 1.8%
Toyota $1,458 $1,374 $1,250 6.1% 16.6%
Industry $2,135 $2,055 $2,122 3.9% 0.6%
</CODE></CODE>
The nos. vary according to source.
According to TrueCar, Honda/Acura's incentive spending for May was $2,281 - up from $1,513 a year ago.
And as a ratio to ATP - it is 8.5%, which is higher than for Ford/Lincoln and F/L sells a lot more trucks and SUVs.
http://blog.truecar.com/2012/06/01/t...o-truecar-com/
It wasn't that long ago that H/A's incentive spending (according to TrueCar) was in the $1,100-1,200 range.
Last edited by YEH; 06-21-2012 at 08:57 PM.
06-21-2012, 09:04 PM
#2940
AZ Community Team
The nos. vary according to source.
According to TrueCar, Honda/Acura's incentive spending for May was $2,281 - up from $1,513 a year ago.
And as a ratio to ATP - it is 8.5%, which is higher than for Ford/Lincoln and F/L sells a lot more trucks and SUVs.
http://blog.truecar.com/2012/06/01/t...o-truecar-com/
It wasn't that long ago that H/A's incentive spending (according to TrueCar) was in the $1,100-1,200 range.
According to TrueCar, Honda/Acura's incentive spending for May was $2,281 - up from $1,513 a year ago.
And as a ratio to ATP - it is 8.5%, which is higher than for Ford/Lincoln and F/L sells a lot more trucks and SUVs.
http://blog.truecar.com/2012/06/01/t...o-truecar-com/
It wasn't that long ago that H/A's incentive spending (according to TrueCar) was in the $1,100-1,200 range.
i wonder which if either are correct?
Here's the Edmunds link with their number.
http://www.edmunds.com/industry-cent...ectations.html
06-21-2012, 09:06 PM
#2941
Kia-Hyundai has already put all the cards on deck in terms of technology and hybrids and we have seen there sales figures and fact they cannot launch premium brand.
Equus sales (even w/o available AWD) in the US is not that far off sales of the Audi A8; and closer to sales of the LS than the LS is to the S Class YTD.
The Genesis sedan sales is about even w/ the Lexus GS, even tho the GS is a brand new model w/ AWD, and far outstrips that of the Infiniti M.
In Canada, the Genesis (even w/o AWD) far outstrips sales of both the GS and M and the Equus outsells the LS.
And an all-new Genesis (w/ AWD) is due to launch next year.
There whole strategy revolves around giving more for less.
by end of this year. Both Sonata, Optima and Elantra will be some where at the bottom of there pack.
by end of this year. Both Sonata, Optima and Elantra will be some where at the bottom of there pack.
Offering more room/size for less compared to the RWD models, by sharing FWD platforms and engines w/ Honda's mainstream lineup.
06-21-2012, 09:08 PM
#2942
That's a huge difference between Edmunds and Truecar.
i wonder which if either are correct?
Here's the Edmunds link with their number.
http://www.edmunds.com/industry-cent...ectations.html
i wonder which if either are correct?
Here's the Edmunds link with their number.
http://www.edmunds.com/industry-cent...ectations.html
06-22-2012, 11:45 AM
#2943
You'll Never Walk Alone
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Age: 37
Posts: 9,493
Received 835 Likes
on
519 Posts
The Days-to-Turn figure is probably not a good indication of how well the ILX is doing. The car just went on sale so the numbers are probably skewed (pre-order, limited amount of models to choose from, etc). I'd give it at least a few months when production is at the normal level, when cars are at the dealers, and when demand & supply are stabilized.
06-22-2012, 09:27 PM
#2944
Equus sales (even w/o available AWD) in the US is not that far off sales of the Audi A8; and closer to sales of the LS than the LS is to the S Class YTD.
The Genesis sedan sales is about even w/ the Lexus GS, even tho the GS is a brand new model w/ AWD, and far outstrips that of the Infiniti M.
In Canada, the Genesis (even w/o AWD) far outstrips sales of both the GS and M and the Equus outsells the LS.
And an all-new Genesis (w/ AWD) is due to launch next year.
Honda has a similar strategy w/ Acura.
Offering more room/size for less compared to the RWD models, by sharing FWD platforms and engines w/ Honda's mainstream lineup.
The Genesis sedan sales is about even w/ the Lexus GS, even tho the GS is a brand new model w/ AWD, and far outstrips that of the Infiniti M.
In Canada, the Genesis (even w/o AWD) far outstrips sales of both the GS and M and the Equus outsells the LS.
And an all-new Genesis (w/ AWD) is due to launch next year.
Honda has a similar strategy w/ Acura.
Offering more room/size for less compared to the RWD models, by sharing FWD platforms and engines w/ Honda's mainstream lineup.
06-22-2012, 10:03 PM
#2945
Audi A4 is comparable to Genesis but A5 is higher than Genesis.
The Genesis sedan sales is about even w/ the Lexus GS, even tho the GS is a brand new model w/ AWD, and far outstrips that of the Infiniti M.
In Canada, the Genesis (even w/o AWD) far outstrips sales of both the GS and M and the Equus outsells the LS.
And an all-new Genesis (w/ AWD) is due to launch next year.
In Canada, the Genesis (even w/o AWD) far outstrips sales of both the GS and M and the Equus outsells the LS.
And an all-new Genesis (w/ AWD) is due to launch next year.
Genesis Lease starts at $399.
http://www.hyundaiusa.com/financial-...al-offers.aspx
Lexus GS lease starts at $599. This does not include GS450h.
http://www.yourlexusdealer.com/San_F...nia/index.html
Audi A6 Premium Plus at $699.
http://www.rectoraudiofburlingame.co...ives/index.htm
Eqqus lease is at $739.
http://www.hyundaiusa.com/financial-...al-offers.aspx
Audi A8 at $1200.
http://www.rectoraudiofburlingame.co...ives/index.htm
Honda has a similar strategy w/ Acura.
Offering more room/size for less compared to the RWD models, by sharing FWD platforms and engines w/ Honda's mainstream lineup.
This new RL will establish new bench mark in pricing.
06-23-2012, 09:51 AM
#2947
AZ Community Team
06-23-2012, 03:43 PM
#2948
6G TLX-S
06-24-2012, 05:06 PM
#2949
I love when Hyundai loyalist make these kinds of comparisons. Granted, the Genesis and Equus are nice steps for Hyundai to take, they are no where near on par or price with the LS, GS, A6, A8, S Class, etc. When Hyundai can match those vehicle prices and match their sales, than you would have something to brag about. The Genesis is a $35-$42k car, and since people shop mostly based on price, it's being cross shopped with vehicles that match it in price, ES, A4, TL, LaCrosse, etc.
Again, the LS400 started off at the ridiculously low MSRP of $35,000.
In addition, the MSRP of the LS460 ($67,630) today is much, much closer to that of Equus ($59,250); over the $60k mark w/ delivery) than it is to the price of the Mercedes S550 ($94,500), and that's despite the Equus not being sold under a separate luxury brand and dealer network and all the costs associated with that.
And no, people don't shop mostly on price, but mostly on size and features (otherwise people would be looking at an FR-S even tho they want a mid-size family sedan like the Camry).
The Genesis has the interior/passenger space of a 7 Series; do you really think people looking for at a "large" sedan will also be looking at the compact Audi A4?
In addition, buyers who are looking at RWD, esp. RWD w/o available AWD, are not looking for FWD/AWD vehicles (they want RWD).
Also, the Genesis has by far the highest V8 take rate for the mid-size, luxury segment; it used to be around 40%, but w/ the powerful V6 and high gas prices it's now probably lower than that, but still higher than the traditional V8 take rate for the segment which is 6-10%.
Lexus couldn't even achieve that w/ the GS which is why they cancelled the V8 for the GS.
I doubt all these V8 Genesis buyers are looking at the A4, etc., b/c they don't offer a V8 (these type of buyers are looking for RWD + V8).
06-24-2012, 05:33 PM
#2950
Going strictly by TrueCar's figures, it's more like a 50% rise in incentives, and as a ratio to ATP, Honda/Acura's (8.5%) is higher than Ford/Lincon's (8.3%) and not far off GM's (9.0%) - and Ford and GM sell a lot more trucks/SUVs than Honda.
Also, in TrueCar's Manufacturer Performance ScoreCard - Honda has been on the C+/B- range.
Note the scores for discount percentage and incentives/price categories.
Audi A8 transaction prices is higher than LS/7 series. Even Audi A6/A7 is higher priced than Hyundai Eqqus.
However, in comparison to the 7 Series, sometimes the 7 has the higher ATP, other times the A8 (part of this is due to relative low sales of the A8 in comparison to the 7 Series and the fact that Audi doesn't have a V6/I6 powered A8, but that has changed).
No, the A6 starts at $41k, the A7 starts at 59k (which is the same for the Equus). (How many times have you been wrong? Again!)
Audi A4 is comparable to Genesis but A5 is higher than Genesis.
And how exactly is the A5 higher than the Genesis sedan?
It's a coupe and its pricing ($37k) is a little higher than the 3.8 Genesis but a good bit below the 5.0 Genesis.
Now, higher than the GenCoupe - yes.
Lexus GS is higher priced vehicle.
As for the lease nos. - they are irrelevant (just like the pricing disparity btwn the LS and the S Class) for these purposes.
Last year, there were lease deals on a base Infiniti G coupe for under $250/month - no one is discounting comparison of sales of the Infiniti G w/ sales of the 3 Series.
Honda does not offer more for less. Honda will not offer 8speed transmission with V8 like Genesis at $45k.
This new RL will establish new bench mark in pricing.
This new RL will establish new bench mark in pricing.
That still doesn't change the fact that Acura's sedan lineup will be compared mostly to the other FWD based lineups/models - Lincoln, Lexus ES, Cadillac XTS, Buick and Volvo and not the Germans (Audi is the one brand that can get away w/ this being they have the good luck of being German, but even then, they can't match Mercedes and BMW in pricing).
The Equus will still at a higher pricepoint/segment than the TLX.
The Genesis (when the 2G Genesis launches) will be at a higher pricepoint/segment than the TSX/TL replacement.
And the new Hyundai compact RWD sedan will be at a higher pricepoint/segment than the ILX.
That's the price one pays for not having a RWD sedan lineup; it's the reason why Cadillac is going w/ a RWD lineup to go head to head w/ the Germans and while Lincoln's sedan lineup will pale in comparison and pricing (there is talk that Lincoln may do one RWD sedan based on the architecture of the new Mustang, but even if they do go ahead and do that, one RWD sedan is not going to be enough to really change things for Lincoln).
Last edited by YEH; 06-24-2012 at 05:44 PM.
06-25-2012, 07:56 PM
#2951
Didn't we already have this "discussion" already (and didn't I already put huge holes thru your premise - I guess you have a conveniently short memory)?
Again, the LS400 started off at the ridiculously low MSRP of $35,000.
In addition, the MSRP of the LS460 ($67,630) today is much, much closer to that of Equus ($59,250); over the $60k mark w/ delivery) than it is to the price of the Mercedes S550 ($94,500), and that's despite the Equus not being sold under a separate luxury brand and dealer network and all the costs associated with that.
And no, people don't shop mostly on price, but mostly on size and features (otherwise people would be looking at an FR-S even tho they want a mid-size family sedan like the Camry).
The Genesis has the interior/passenger space of a 7 Series; do you really think people looking for at a "large" sedan will also be looking at the compact Audi A4?
In addition, buyers who are looking at RWD, esp. RWD w/o available AWD, are not looking for FWD/AWD vehicles (they want RWD).
Also, the Genesis has by far the highest V8 take rate for the mid-size, luxury segment; it used to be around 40%, but w/ the powerful V6 and high gas prices it's now probably lower than that, but still higher than the traditional V8 take rate for the segment which is 6-10%.
Lexus couldn't even achieve that w/ the GS which is why they cancelled the V8 for the GS.
I doubt all these V8 Genesis buyers are looking at the A4, etc., b/c they don't offer a V8 (these type of buyers are looking for RWD + V8).
Again, the LS400 started off at the ridiculously low MSRP of $35,000.
In addition, the MSRP of the LS460 ($67,630) today is much, much closer to that of Equus ($59,250); over the $60k mark w/ delivery) than it is to the price of the Mercedes S550 ($94,500), and that's despite the Equus not being sold under a separate luxury brand and dealer network and all the costs associated with that.
And no, people don't shop mostly on price, but mostly on size and features (otherwise people would be looking at an FR-S even tho they want a mid-size family sedan like the Camry).
The Genesis has the interior/passenger space of a 7 Series; do you really think people looking for at a "large" sedan will also be looking at the compact Audi A4?
In addition, buyers who are looking at RWD, esp. RWD w/o available AWD, are not looking for FWD/AWD vehicles (they want RWD).
Also, the Genesis has by far the highest V8 take rate for the mid-size, luxury segment; it used to be around 40%, but w/ the powerful V6 and high gas prices it's now probably lower than that, but still higher than the traditional V8 take rate for the segment which is 6-10%.
Lexus couldn't even achieve that w/ the GS which is why they cancelled the V8 for the GS.
I doubt all these V8 Genesis buyers are looking at the A4, etc., b/c they don't offer a V8 (these type of buyers are looking for RWD + V8).
I assume you conveniently forgotten that time and time again, when the economy is the way it is, the biggest decision factor when cross shopping now for the majority of Americans is budget/price. As a result, the Genesis and Equus are being shopped with vehicles COMPARATIVELY PRICED. I guess you've been living under a rock since 2008 or you'd know that. The majority of people right now, are not cross shopping a Genesis with a M, A6, 5 series, E class, etc. The prices aren't even close, and please spare us the quotes of base msrps of these Lexus, Audi's and other luxury vehicles. Not one goddam one is on those lots for the base msrp. For instance, I have not seen one LS that was not between $72-85k once loaded up. Once these name plate luxury vehicles are loaded up, there is a 10-15k difference in price, which really adds up. So get off the base msrp comparison as it can't happen.
Plus, while the Equus and Genesis are nice vehicles, they don't compare to the quality and refinement that Lexus, Audi, BMW, and MB have. Maybe one day, but not today. Nor has there been one Hyundai dealership I've been to that could match the decorum, customer service, and treatment I've seen at Audi, BMW, Lexus, and MB dealerships.
Who cares how many idiot V8 buyers there are on the Genesis, it makes no difference. All the smart manufacturers are moving away from gas guzzling V8s and to fuel efficient V6s, hybrids, and turbo 4cyls, even in their luxury lines.
Once Hyundai can offer the Genesis and Equus at the same prices that Lexus, Audi, MB, and BMW can, and keep or exceed their sales, then you got something to talk about. Until then, the Genesis and Equus suffer from the same fate as the Buick, Acura, and Infiniti brands when compared to the other 4.
06-25-2012, 10:26 PM
#2952
Of course the ATP would be higher than for the LS, it's a more expensive model.
However, in comparison to the 7 Series, sometimes the 7 has the higher ATP, other times the A8 (part of this is due to relative low sales of the A8 in comparison to the 7 Series and the fact that Audi doesn't have a V6/I6 powered A8, but that has changed).
No, the A6 starts at $41k, the A7 starts at 59k (which is the same for the Equus). (How many times have you been wrong? Again!)
Try building A6 3.0T Prestige with same equipment as Eqqus. The price is $72k.
In price, but not in segment (actually, the A4 starts a few grand less than the Genesis and that diff. will widen when the 2G Genesis is launched next year).'
And how exactly is the A5 higher than the Genesis sedan?
It's a coupe and its pricing ($37k) is a little higher than the 3.8 Genesis but a good bit below the 5.0 Genesis.
Now, higher than the GenCoupe - yes.
It's a coupe and its pricing ($37k) is a little higher than the 3.8 Genesis but a good bit below the 5.0 Genesis.
Now, higher than the GenCoupe - yes.
So? The S Class has a bigger pricing disparity w/ the LS460 and people still compare LS and S Class sales, and unlike Hyundai, Toyota is not offering a discount on the LS for not being sold under a separate brand/dealer network.
As for the lease nos. - they are irrelevant (just like the pricing disparity btwn the LS and the S Class) for these purposes.
Last year, there were lease deals on a base Infiniti G coupe for under $250/month - no one is discounting comparison of sales of the Infiniti G w/ sales of the 3 Series.
Last year, there were lease deals on a base Infiniti G coupe for under $250/month - no one is discounting comparison of sales of the Infiniti G w/ sales of the 3 Series.
Bench mark pricing for a FWD-based AWD sedan maybe (we'll see what Ford does w/ the MKS).
That still doesn't change the fact that Acura's sedan lineup will be compared mostly to the other FWD based lineups/models - Lincoln, Lexus ES, Cadillac XTS, Buick and Volvo and not the Germans (Audi is the one brand that can get away w/ this being they have the good luck of being German, but even then, they can't match Mercedes and BMW in pricing).
That still doesn't change the fact that Acura's sedan lineup will be compared mostly to the other FWD based lineups/models - Lincoln, Lexus ES, Cadillac XTS, Buick and Volvo and not the Germans (Audi is the one brand that can get away w/ this being they have the good luck of being German, but even then, they can't match Mercedes and BMW in pricing).
The Equus will still at a higher pricepoint/segment than the TLX.
The Genesis (when the 2G Genesis launches) will be at a higher pricepoint/segment than the TSX/TL replacement.
And the new Hyundai compact RWD sedan will be at a higher pricepoint/segment than the ILX.
That's the price one pays for not having a RWD sedan lineup; it's the reason why Cadillac is going w/ a RWD lineup to go head to head w/ the Germans and while Lincoln's sedan lineup will pale in comparison and pricing (there is talk that Lincoln may do one RWD sedan based on the architecture of the new Mustang, but even if they do go ahead and do that, one RWD sedan is not going to be enough to really change things for Lincoln).
As i said the era of growth of Korean automakers is coming to an end.
06-27-2012, 07:31 PM
#2954
form where you get that BMW 7 has higher transaction price than A8?
V8 to V8, the 7 Series has the higher ATP.
Now you want to compared FWD/CVT barely equipped A6 with Eqqus.
The problem is equipment. Audi A4 with same equipment is Genesis is comparable in price to Genesis V8 5.0. and And S4 is comparable to Eqqus.
The S4 is also starts at a higher price than the base 5 Series so what's the point? Same goes for the M3 compared to the base 5er.
German car starts at lower price but once you put equipment into it. It quickly climbs above $50k for even 4cylinder vehicles.
The price advantage for the Japanese brands like Lexus and Infiniti increases once one factors in all the options/amenities, but that doesn't change the price of entry (unless one takes into account lease deals which is a whole 'nother thing).
LS460 is 6 year old with smaller capacity engine than Eqqus. In next version it will move more upmarket.
G series is 8 year old vehicle in design. try to sell 8 year old Hyundai.
The Genesis sedan is going into its 5th year of sale and sales are still increasing.
Acura hasnt introduced new engines and transmission. once Honda put new tech. Prices will be comparable to Lexus. There is no way on this planet Honda is going to sell V8 for $50k. Honda V8 if it creates will be $80k starting price.
what do you know about TLX. it will not have the content, V8, wheel base of Equs.
The point is that the TLX can't compete head to head w/ the flagship class and thus has to compete "in-btwn" w/ the likes of the XTS, MKS and S80.
No one is going to bother with 2G Genesis. by that time Infiniti/Acura will have introduced there next level of tech.
And the current Infiniti M is newer than the Genesis and has about half the sales volume in NA despite the Genesis not having AWD.
ILX price will aslo increase once they put new tech into. Just DI engine alones adds $2500 on average.
And if Honda raises the price of the ILX too high, buyers will just opt for the A4 or for a RWD compact sedan.
RWD is nonense. The correcrt implementation of Electric and SH-AWD wither superior aerodynamics will blows away every thing.
So if RWD is nonsense, why isn't Acura seen as a "Tier 1" luxury brand and why can't Acura command the same pricing as Lexus or Infiniti, much less Mercedes and BMW?
Forget Acura, why can't Audi command the same prices as its German brethren despite its Quattro system?
People who don't live in the snow belt don't want the added complication and weight that comes w/ an AWD system.
Heck, Acura went from the SH-AWD system to a cheaper/lighter AWD system for the new RDX b/c most buyers don't care about the handling capabilities of an AWD system on a dry surface.
As i said the era of growth of Korean automakers is coming to an end.
While yes, growth for H/K in the US has slowed due to capacity restraints, but it is still growing nonetheless and sales are still growing quickly elsewhere (Europe, China, Russia, etc.).
H/K is one of the few to grow sales YTD in Europe - where H/K's share of the market is 5.9 versus 7.8 for Toyota, Nissan and Honda.
http://www.acea.be/images/uploads/fi...FINAL-1205.pdf
And Hyundai's factories are all running at over 100% capacity which is one of the reasons Hyundai has the highest profit margins next to BMW.
06-27-2012, 07:59 PM
#2955
But the luxury market is an entirely different matter; luxury sales are flying high in the US.
Very few people shopping for something the size of a 3 Series will be looking at something that has the interior space of a 7 Series.
The prices aren't even close, and please spare us the quotes of base msrps of these Lexus, Audi's and other luxury vehicles. Not one goddam one is on those lots for the base msrp. For instance, I have not seen one LS that was not between $72-85k once loaded up. Once these name plate luxury vehicles are loaded up, there is a 10-15k difference in price, which really adds up. So get off the base msrp comparison as it can't happen.
Plus, while the Equus and Genesis are nice vehicles, they don't compare to the quality and refinement that Lexus, Audi, BMW, and MB have. Maybe one day, but not today. Nor has there been one Hyundai dealership I've been to that could match the decorum, customer service, and treatment I've seen at Audi, BMW, Lexus, and MB dealerships.
But as for the customer service/treatment thing, considering that Equus owners get valet service for both service and sales, not all the other brands offer such service across the board.
Who cares how many idiot V8 buyers there are on the Genesis, it makes no difference. All the smart manufacturers are moving away from gas guzzling V8s and to fuel efficient V6s, hybrids, and turbo 4cyls, even in their luxury lines.
While Mercedes and BMW may offer turbo 4 cyl or turbo 6s, they won't stop offering V8s for their midsize sedans, much less their flagships.
So for automakers like Toyota and Nissan, it is even more crucial that they still have V8 sales thru their full-size SUVs, otherwise, there wouldn't be enough V8 sales to warrant the continued cost of their V8 programs.
Once Hyundai can offer the Genesis and Equus at the same prices that Lexus, Audi, MB, and BMW can, and keep or exceed their sales, then you got something to talk about. Until then, the Genesis and Equus suffer from the same fate as the Buick, Acura, and Infiniti brands when compared to the other 4.
And I don't know why you separated out Infiniti - price-wise, they are around Lexus in the same segment and higher than Acura.
And my whole point is that Hyundai isn't going to charge the same prices (or even close) as BMW/MB b/c that has proven to be a losing strategy (see sales of the Infiniti M and Lexus GS).
And as I stated before, they wouldn't be able to get away w/ charging the same prices b/c they don't sell their luxury offerings under a separate premium brand/dealer network (so those "savings" go to the customers, just as the savings that Honda gets by using its FWD platform and powerplants for Acura gets passed to the consumer).
The price on the 2G Genesis and 3G Equus will rise (more so for the Genesis), but they will still undercut Lexus and Infiniti, much less MB and BMW.
But while Lexus and Infiniti undercut MB and BMW, they can't get much sales traction compared to the Germans.
Otoh, Hyundai has gotten sales traction against Lexus and Infiniti.
Sure, Hyundai could launch a separate luxury brand and dealer network and tack on the an extra $7-10k to the MSRP, but where would that get them?
Right where Lexus and Infiniti are - floundering against the Germans when in comes to going head to head in the RWD segments.
Personally, would I like to see Hyundai launch a separate luxury brand and dealer network? Sure.
But it would be a foolish business decision.
Launching a Genesis sub-brand and carving out a separate showroom would be the much smarter choice.
[If the shoe were on the other foot w/ Hyundai already having a separate luxury brand and network w/ Nissan looking to enter the luxury market, I'd be saying the exact same thing for Nissan - that they'd be better off (than Hyundai) not launching a separate brand and network.]
Last edited by YEH; 06-27-2012 at 08:12 PM.
06-27-2012, 09:28 PM
#2956
Not comparing them, just pointing out your mistaken generalization.
That's not the point; and S4 - really?
The S4 is also starts at a higher price than the base 5 Series so what's the point? Same goes for the M3 compared to the base 5er.
The S4 is also starts at a higher price than the base 5 Series so what's the point? Same goes for the M3 compared to the base 5er.
Yes, everyone knows that; but still, the point is starting MSRP (what people need to pay as a price of entry).
The price advantage for the Japanese brands like Lexus and Infiniti increases once one factors in all the options/amenities, but that doesn't change the price of entry (unless one takes into account lease deals which is a whole 'nother thing).
The price advantage for the Japanese brands like Lexus and Infiniti increases once one factors in all the options/amenities, but that doesn't change the price of entry (unless one takes into account lease deals which is a whole 'nother thing).
And so will the Equus (even more so comparatively); the 2G Genesis will launch next year and the 3G Equus in 2014 (about a year after the new LS launches).
Try FIVE years (do you ever get anything right?); the 4G G coupe was launched as a 2007MY, and I am talking about lease deals for 2011.
The Genesis sedan is going into its 5th year of sale and sales are still increasing.
The Genesis sedan is going into its 5th year of sale and sales are still increasing.
And neither has Lexus; and the point is that Honda doesn't have RWD + V8, so they can't command the same pricing.
Who said it did?
The point is that the TLX can't compete head to head w/ the flagship class and thus has to compete "in-btwn" w/ the likes of the XTS, MKS and S80.
The point is that the TLX can't compete head to head w/ the flagship class and thus has to compete "in-btwn" w/ the likes of the XTS, MKS and S80.
Acura already is a no-go for the buyers looking for RWD.
And the current Infiniti M is newer than the Genesis and has about half the sales volume in NA despite the Genesis not having AWD.
And the current Infiniti M is newer than the Genesis and has about half the sales volume in NA despite the Genesis not having AWD.
Adding DI doesn't add $2.5k to the pricetag, esp. at the lower end of the market.
And if Honda raises the price of the ILX too high, buyers will just opt for the A4 or for a RWD compact sedan.
And if Honda raises the price of the ILX too high, buyers will just opt for the A4 or for a RWD compact sedan.
Do you really ever think thru anything before you post? (Don't answer that; if you didn't know, it's a rhetorical question).
So if RWD is nonsense, why isn't Acura seen as a "Tier 1" luxury brand and why can't Acura command the same pricing as Lexus or Infiniti, much less Mercedes and BMW?
So if RWD is nonsense, why isn't Acura seen as a "Tier 1" luxury brand and why can't Acura command the same pricing as Lexus or Infiniti, much less Mercedes and BMW?
Forget Acura, why can't Audi command the same prices as its German brethren despite its Quattro system?
People who don't live in the snow belt don't want the added complication and weight that comes w/ an AWD system.
Heck, Acura went from the SH-AWD system to a cheaper/lighter AWD system for the new RDX b/c most buyers don't care about the handling capabilities of an AWD system on a dry surface.
Heck, Acura went from the SH-AWD system to a cheaper/lighter AWD system for the new RDX b/c most buyers don't care about the handling capabilities of an AWD system on a dry surface.
Haven't you been saying that for some time now?
While yes, growth for H/K in the US has slowed due to capacity restraints, but it is still growing nonetheless and sales are still growing quickly elsewhere (Europe, China, Russia, etc.).
H/K is one of the few to grow sales YTD in Europe - where H/K's share of the market is 5.9 versus 7.8 for Toyota, Nissan and Honda.
http://www.acea.be/images/uploads/fi...FINAL-1205.pdf
And Hyundai's factories are all running at over 100% capacity which is one of the reasons Hyundai has the highest profit margins next to BMW.
While yes, growth for H/K in the US has slowed due to capacity restraints, but it is still growing nonetheless and sales are still growing quickly elsewhere (Europe, China, Russia, etc.).
H/K is one of the few to grow sales YTD in Europe - where H/K's share of the market is 5.9 versus 7.8 for Toyota, Nissan and Honda.
http://www.acea.be/images/uploads/fi...FINAL-1205.pdf
And Hyundai's factories are all running at over 100% capacity which is one of the reasons Hyundai has the highest profit margins next to BMW.
06-28-2012, 05:23 PM
#2957
"Delusions of grandeur" would be your claim that "I proved it."
Yeah, at the mainstream level (btw, the Elantra has a higher ATP than both the Corolla and Civic).
But the luxury market is an entirely different matter; luxury sales are flying high in the US.
Comparatively prices within the same size segment, w/ RWD vs. FWD being a factor as well a availability of a V8 powerplant.
Did I say the majority of shoppers for the Genesis are cross-shopping w/ the 5 Series, E Class?
Very few people shopping for something the size of a 3 Series will be looking at something that has the interior space of a 7 Series.
Adding options is more expensive for the Germans, so whatever price bump you get by adding options to the LS, you get an even higher price bump to the S Class, and the S Class already has a $20k premium in price.
Who claimed any of that?
But as for the customer service/treatment thing, considering that Equus owners get valet service for both service and sales, not all the other brands offer such service across the board.
V8 sales are still healthy for BMW and Mercedes (people who want the "luxury" and smoothness of a V8 still want a V8).
While Mercedes and BMW may offer turbo 4 cyl or turbo 6s, they won't stop offering V8s for their midsize sedans, much less their flagships.
So for automakers like Toyota and Nissan, it is even more crucial that they still have V8 sales thru their full-size SUVs, otherwise, there wouldn't be enough V8 sales to warrant the continued cost of their V8 programs.
Sorry, but Lexus prices aren't close to that for MB and BMW, esp. at the high end.
And I don't know why you separated out Infiniti - price-wise, they are around Lexus in the same segment and higher than Acura.
And my whole point is that Hyundai isn't going to charge the same prices (or even close) as BMW/MB b/c that has proven to be a losing strategy (see sales of the Infiniti M and Lexus GS).
And as I stated before, they wouldn't be able to get away w/ charging the same prices b/c they don't sell their luxury offerings under a separate premium brand/dealer network (so those "savings" go to the customers, just as the savings that Honda gets by using its FWD platform and powerplants for Acura gets passed to the consumer).
The price on the 2G Genesis and 3G Equus will rise (more so for the Genesis), but they will still undercut Lexus and Infiniti, much less MB and BMW.
But while Lexus and Infiniti undercut MB and BMW, they can't get much sales traction compared to the Germans.
Otoh, Hyundai has gotten sales traction against Lexus and Infiniti.
Sure, Hyundai could launch a separate luxury brand and dealer network and tack on the an extra $7-10k to the MSRP, but where would that get them?
Right where Lexus and Infiniti are - floundering against the Germans when in comes to going head to head in the RWD segments.
Personally, would I like to see Hyundai launch a separate luxury brand and dealer network? Sure.
But it would be a foolish business decision.
Launching a Genesis sub-brand and carving out a separate showroom would be the much smarter choice.
[If the shoe were on the other foot w/ Hyundai already having a separate luxury brand and network w/ Nissan looking to enter the luxury market, I'd be saying the exact same thing for Nissan - that they'd be better off (than Hyundai) not launching a separate brand and network.]
Yeah, at the mainstream level (btw, the Elantra has a higher ATP than both the Corolla and Civic).
But the luxury market is an entirely different matter; luxury sales are flying high in the US.
Comparatively prices within the same size segment, w/ RWD vs. FWD being a factor as well a availability of a V8 powerplant.
Did I say the majority of shoppers for the Genesis are cross-shopping w/ the 5 Series, E Class?
Very few people shopping for something the size of a 3 Series will be looking at something that has the interior space of a 7 Series.
Adding options is more expensive for the Germans, so whatever price bump you get by adding options to the LS, you get an even higher price bump to the S Class, and the S Class already has a $20k premium in price.
Who claimed any of that?
But as for the customer service/treatment thing, considering that Equus owners get valet service for both service and sales, not all the other brands offer such service across the board.
V8 sales are still healthy for BMW and Mercedes (people who want the "luxury" and smoothness of a V8 still want a V8).
While Mercedes and BMW may offer turbo 4 cyl or turbo 6s, they won't stop offering V8s for their midsize sedans, much less their flagships.
So for automakers like Toyota and Nissan, it is even more crucial that they still have V8 sales thru their full-size SUVs, otherwise, there wouldn't be enough V8 sales to warrant the continued cost of their V8 programs.
Sorry, but Lexus prices aren't close to that for MB and BMW, esp. at the high end.
And I don't know why you separated out Infiniti - price-wise, they are around Lexus in the same segment and higher than Acura.
And my whole point is that Hyundai isn't going to charge the same prices (or even close) as BMW/MB b/c that has proven to be a losing strategy (see sales of the Infiniti M and Lexus GS).
And as I stated before, they wouldn't be able to get away w/ charging the same prices b/c they don't sell their luxury offerings under a separate premium brand/dealer network (so those "savings" go to the customers, just as the savings that Honda gets by using its FWD platform and powerplants for Acura gets passed to the consumer).
The price on the 2G Genesis and 3G Equus will rise (more so for the Genesis), but they will still undercut Lexus and Infiniti, much less MB and BMW.
But while Lexus and Infiniti undercut MB and BMW, they can't get much sales traction compared to the Germans.
Otoh, Hyundai has gotten sales traction against Lexus and Infiniti.
Sure, Hyundai could launch a separate luxury brand and dealer network and tack on the an extra $7-10k to the MSRP, but where would that get them?
Right where Lexus and Infiniti are - floundering against the Germans when in comes to going head to head in the RWD segments.
Personally, would I like to see Hyundai launch a separate luxury brand and dealer network? Sure.
But it would be a foolish business decision.
Launching a Genesis sub-brand and carving out a separate showroom would be the much smarter choice.
[If the shoe were on the other foot w/ Hyundai already having a separate luxury brand and network w/ Nissan looking to enter the luxury market, I'd be saying the exact same thing for Nissan - that they'd be better off (than Hyundai) not launching a separate brand and network.]
I'm not going to even try to get trapped in your circular logic of BS. All I just heard was a lot of hot air about nothing. Bottom line is, the Genesis and Equus are not being cross shopped significantly with what Hyundai "Claims" they compete with nor could they match the sales of those supposed "claimed" vehicle competitors if the prices were the same. At least not with where Hyundai stands right now.
07-03-2012, 06:37 PM
#2958
Burning Brakes
The MDX is having monster sales and the redesigned RDX is doing quite well. The TL is respectable. Hopefully Honda learns it's mistake and doesn't make the same mistake with the 5G TL.
Last edited by JAB00; 07-03-2012 at 06:40 PM. Reason: adding.
