Honda: S2000 News
#642
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by 04EuroAccordTsx
Nismo 350z > S2000 CR
Style? Performance? Cause a regular S2K can for the most part outperform a 350 so I don't see why the CR won't outperform a Nismo.
Having said that they're both ugly.
#643
Race Director
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Illinois
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Originally Posted by dom
Style? Performance? Cause a regular S2K can for the most part outperform a 350 so I don't see why the CR won't outperform a Nismo.
Having said that they're both ugly.
Having said that they're both ugly.
#645
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by 04EuroAccordTsx
Style goes to Nismo 350z.
I didn't post in the thread in cartalk where the member traded his car in for one of those 'cause I have absolutely nothing nice to say about it... Styling blows...
I wouldn't drive a Nismo Z if you paid me... but I could see myself in the S2K CR (it looks great in black)
#646
The hair says it all
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Originally Posted by GreenMonster
I didn't post in the thread in cartalk where the member traded his car in for one of those 'cause I have absolutely nothing nice to say about it... Styling blows...
I wouldn't drive a Nismo Z if you paid me... but I could see myself in the S2K CR (it looks great in black)
#648
The sizzle in the Steak
#650
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by GreenMonster
I didn't post in the thread in cartalk where the member traded his car in for one of those 'cause I have absolutely nothing nice to say about it... Styling blows...
I wouldn't drive a Nismo Z if you paid me... but I could see myself in the S2K CR (it looks great in black)
#651
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by LiQiCE
Edmunds first Drive for the 2008 Honda S2000 CR:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...hotopanel..1.*
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...hotopanel..1.*
According to Senior Chief Engineer Shingeru Uehara, there is simply no more power to be had from the four-cylinder without adding forced induction or failing to meet drivability and emissions targets. And Uehara knows from Honda performance vehicles, having birthed the NSX and the original S2000.
#652
Fahrvergnügen'd
Originally Posted by F23A4
^^^ Worthy of note.
I think everything about the Nismo Z is fine except that horrific rear diffuser thing.
Also a car like that shouldn't be putting out stock HP either. Seems silly when I found that out.
Those crazy Japanese and their wings
#654
Three Wheelin'
#655
Three Wheelin'
http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-ar...icle_id=700946
It's no secret that we've always held a special spot in our hearts for Honda's S2000. Combining a lightweight and rigid FR chassis with a world class drivetrain, Honda quality, sharp styling, and great value, the S2000 represents one of Honda's finest engineering and development efforts to date. Indeed, many of the dreams that sustained the Temple of VTEC through the 1990s were fueled by the scant details we gathered on Honda's SSM (and later, SSX) concept.
The S2000's Development since 2000
The S2000 debuted worldwide in late 1999 as a 2000 model, featuring the F20C - a 240hp 2.0L DOHC VTEC inline-4-cylinder that spun to a dizzying 9000 rpms. The specific output (120hp/L) of this motor put it way ahead of any other naturally aspirated mass production automobile motor offered to that point. 8 years later, the feat has yet to be matched by any other automaker (before you point to the Ferrari FXX, remember that it's not street legal, and with only 30 built in total, not exactly "mass-produced"). While many Honda enthusiasts were thrilled by the F20C, the high-strung nature of it generated some criticism. For the record, we never complained.
Honda seemed to take this criticism to heart, however, and for the first significant update to the S2000 (which came in the 2004 model year), the engine displacement was bumped up to 2.2L (and thus called F22C) and a revised transmission with a shorter final drive ratio was fitted. Additionally, the chassis received several key changes in 2004, with a larger 17" wheel/tire package, a slower steering ratio, and a redesigned rear suspension - the objective of these chassis revisions was to make the S2000 easier to control at the limits. (Historical note: this package of updates precipitated a change in the S2000's chassis designation to "AP2". 2000 through 2003 model S2000s have a chassis code designation of "AP1"). Until the 2008 model year, there were no further changes of note apart from a minor drivetrain update for model year 2006, when the S2000 was fitted with Honda's VSA (Vehicle Stability Assist) system. The fitment of VSA required a switch from a cable-actuated throttle body to a "Drive By Wire" system with an electronically actuated throttle body.
Bolt-on MMC?
While 2008 marks the first time Honda's introduced a trim level variant to the S2000 line in the United States, the overall changes fall more into the "fine tuning" category than anything else. Evidence to support this notion comes with the fact that the chassis code remains unchanged, and this S2000 is still called an "AP2". While the S2000 CR is a distinct variant, the distinction arrives via "bolt-on" upgrades. To some, this may come as a bit of a disappointment, but for others (such as yours truly), this "bolt-on" MMC opens new doors for possibly upgrading their own older S2000 models. In any case, given the S2000 platform's age, the approach Honda has taken for this final update clearly makes the most sense.
The letters CR represent "Club Racer", and as such the S2000 CR was designed for the guy who wants a ready-to-roll track car for weekend club racing events. To reduce weight, several items have been chucked, such as the A/C, radio, sound insulation, spare tire, jack, and convertible top and related hardware. The elimination of all this ballast results in a weight reduction of around 141 lbs. The A/C and radio can be added back as options, but that eliminates 42 lbs of the weight savings.
While the weight savings sound great, in order to meet Honda's dynamic objectives for the CR, some of those weight savings had to be offset with new hardware (yeah, "bolt-ons"). To stiffen the body, a brace has been bolted into the area vacated by the convertible top mechanism while up front, another brace is installed to stiffen the steering box. To reduce lift, improve stability, and generate downforce (when the aluminum top is in place), aerodynamic bodywork has been employed. Roll bar cowlings, a tire repair kit, wider rear tires, and slightly heavier suspension components and rear tires also add to the tally, with the sum total of additions weighing in at 42lbs. If you're trying to keep track of all this with a spreadsheet, relax - the net result is the lightest configuration for a CR model weighs 99lbs less than the base '08 model, or 51lbs less if you wish to have a roof over your head. In its heaviest form (with A/C, stereo, and hardtop in place), the CR comes in at right around 9 lbs under a base S2000.
Chassis Updates
For 2008, both S2000 models have benefited from suspension updates. First off,the base 2008 S2000 runs stiffer springs and dampers than the '07 model, to the tune of +7%/+9% (F/R) for the springs and +10%/+5% (F/R) for the dampers. For the CR, the suspension spring and damper rates compare to the '07 model as follows - +47%/+27% (F/R) for the springs and +65%/+39% (F/R) for the dampers. Honda's engineers determined that the increase in the CR's spring and damping rates called for a rear body brace in order for the stiffer suspension components to operate with more precision. Sway bars on the '08 S2000s have been enlarged up front on both the base S2000 and the CR, and the CR gets a larger rear bar as well. The wheel and tire package for the '08 base S2000 remains unchanged from the '07 spec but the CR sees 10mm of additional width on the rear tires (upgraded from 245/40R17s to 255/40R17s), and the CR's tires are all new super-sticky Bridgestone Potenza RE070s. 2008 marks the return of the AP1 S2000's original steering ratio of 13.8:1, but only in the CR model - the base '08 S2000 continues on with the AP2's slower 14.9:1 steering ratio.
Other Changes
Beyond the chassis tweaks and a new 5-spoke alloy wheel design, there are a few other minor details to note. A tire pressure monitoring system and a new gauge cluster have been fitted to both '08 models. The new gauge cluster ditches the AP2's triple rainbow configuration (thankfully) for a layout featuring a single continuous arc, with roughly the first 2/3rds of the arc occupied by the tach, and the remaining third split into two segments for the fuel and coolant temp gauges. The digital readout for the speedometer maintains its familiar central location, and on the CR, a special green LED indicator is located just to the right of the speedo. The function of this LED is to indicate when the motor is operating in its range of maximum power output. The LED begins blinking when the revs are approaching the range of maximum power, and goes solid when it's in the range of maximum hp. Further changes to the interior are limited to the CR. The CR gets a slightly shorter shifter, resulting in an even shorter shift stroke (-2.1 mm/-5.7%) with a modest increase of around 10% in effort. On top of this shortened shift lever is a CR-exclusive all aluminum shift knob. "Kevlar-inspired" yellow and black mesh fabric inserts and black faux-suede bolsters are used (instead of leather on the standard S2000) to upholster the CR's seats. Further differentiating the CR's interior is yellow stitching (regardless of exterior color), accenting the seat stitching, steering wheel, shifter boot, and door panel trim. The final CR-exclusive touch to the interior are "Carbon-Fiber-like" panels on the center console and the lid that normally covers the radio.
The Fast and the Amish
Following the customary technical briefing, our small group of journalists filed into a selection of 2008 S2000s for a drive route that would take us from Columbus into the Amish countryside of central Ohio, where we would weave around smushed horse pies (and their sources), before stopping for a respite at a small lakeside park, where we would switch cars and then point them towards Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course, our final destination for the weekend. (The only catch was that we arrived with the cars at Mid-Ohio on Saturday just after noon, but we couldn't actually drive them again until Monday all those pesky ALMS and Indy cars had finished up with their business on Saturday and Sunday. I have to say that this was one of the coolest press trips that I've been fortunate enough to be a part of - for our accommodations we each had a rented RV parked trackside right past the bridge at turn 1.)
Fortunately, my driving partner on the street portion managed to secure a CR for the first segment of our route. More often than not, these ride and drives have fairly balanced drive routes, where you set off in one car for some number of miles, then reach a car change point and finish up the route in another car (hopefully of a different trim level) covering roughly the same distance. Then every now and then, you have less balanced drive routes, where the car switch point gives you much more time in one car than another. Sometimes this works out in your favor, and sometimes it doesn't. On this occasion, it worked out in our favor, and we spent more quality time with the CR.
During this portion of the drive route, the CRs all had the hardtops installed, and one of the first things I noticed was that the S2000 CR is indeed a fairly loud vehicle - the fixed roof seemed to amplify just about everything. Of course, the sounds are mostly composed of mechanical purity, which is music to my ears - your mileage might vary, however. The second thing I noticed (from the passenger seat) was that even though the CR is mechanically identical to the base S2000 in terms of drivetrain, the tug from the motor felt quite spirited and somehow stronger than a run of the mill S2000, but then again, I rarely find myself in the passenger seat of an S2000.
When it was my turn to take the helm, everything felt very familiar, and very good. Now that I was behind the wheel, I was able to get a feel for the CR's steering - I was never fully onboard with the AP2s switch to a slower ratio, so having the AP1's quicker ratio back is a big plus in my book. While I wouldn't mind a bit more effort and a touch more feel, the steering responds quickly, directly, and naturally. Visibility with the hard top on was acceptable, and surprisingly the huge wing doesn't block much of the view out the back window. As for the body structure itself, I can't yet say with any certainty that I could feel the effects of the steering gearbox brace or even the rear chassis brace on the street, as the S2000's chassis is already well known for its rigidity, but for what it's worth, the CR felt very tight. If there's anything I'm able to sense in a standard S2000, it's an occasional bit of cowl flex over broken pavement, but the CR seemed pretty solid in this respect.
Coils and Dampers
As someone who was less than enamored by the AP2's softer suspension settings, I'm very happy with the CR's more aggressive suspension calibrations. Sure, there's a bit of a penalty in ride quality, but this is a sports car - the sharpened responses and unflappable composure more than make up for any such penalties. Unfortunately I didn't have too many opportunities to flog the CR on any seriously twisty roads, but from what I gathered, the car had a more settled and balanced feel to it than the AP2s I've driven. Grip from the RE070s felt quite good, but again, I'll wait for the opportunity to flog them on our normal test loop before coming to any final conclusions.
Shift
One of the S2000's highlights has always been the feel of its shifter, and I'm happy to report that the CR's shortened shifter still feels great. The claimed 10% increase in effort is all but imperceptible, but perhaps more importantly, there's no perceivable loss in feel or precision compared to the standard S2000's. Everything else is as you would find it in an AP2 - the F22C revs eagerly, though with the additional torque available, I'm still not convinced it needs a shorter final drive ratio than the AP1 had. The AP2's shorter final drive ratio and lower rev limit equate to lower shift points and tighter gaps between the gears. Being accustomed to my AP1 S2000 with its 9000rpm redline and nearly 65+mph reach in 2nd gear, it always takes me a while to adjust to the shift points when I drive AP2s, particularly since the motor still feels like it's yet to peak by the time you've run it into the limiter. I was reminded of this while attempting to make a quick pass in 2nd gear on one of the 55mph back-roads that was on our route. The car we were following was traveling around 30mph for seemingly miles, and though we were on a mostly straight and flat road and could generally see no oncoming traffic for a good mile ahead of us, we had the dreaded double yellow. That didn't stop two locals from blowing past us, but I lawfully waited for a passing zone. Once we finally reached it (many expletives later), the driver in front of me suddenly started speeding up, as if he had just realized that he had been traveling at around half the posted limit for the past half dozen miles. Of course, this happened just as I had dropped the CR into second and started to pull out around him. I stayed in it, thinking I had plenty of range to slip past him, but within a flash I ran out of revs and slammed into the limiter, and had to upshift into 3rd to complete the pass. As much as I like the improved pace of the F22C, it would have been nice if Honda could have maintained the 3000 rpm powerband of the F20C. See, with both the F20C and the F22C, the VTEC switchover to the big camlobes occurs at right around 6000 rpms. from this point on to the rev limiter, you're pretty much in the sweet spot of the powerband, so the F20C has a broader powerband. Perhaps a lower cam switchover point for the F22C would preserve some of the width of the powerband while still providing more overall oomph.
Track Impressions
After enjoying a full weekend of ALMS, Indycar, and Speed World Challenge action at Mid-Ohio, obviously the highlight of the entire press event was the day's planned activities on Monday, when we had Mid-Ohio all to ourselves. Following a commendably brief briefings up in the control tower, and a van lap, we were set loose in a selection of S2000s. On hand were a pair of base 2008 S2000s, a half dozen CRs, and for comparison, one or two 2007 S2000s. While some of my colleagues wanted to sample the cars progressively, starting with the '07 S2000, I didn't waste any time, and jumped right into an Apex Blue CR. I had been on Mid-Ohio one other time prior to this, way back in 2002 for an Acura press event showcasing their Type-S models. For that event, we drove Mid-Ohio's school cars, which at the time were RSX Type-S that had been prepped for sustained lapping - which means they had R-compound tires, tightened suspensions, and brake pad compounds that were designed to operate at the type of temperatures normally encountered on track. By comparison, the S2000s we drove were completely stock - as delivered from the factory.
If you haven't driven Mid-Ohio, it's a fairly technical track. While there are a few segments where you will reach triple digit speeds, most of the time seems to be made and lost on the twistier portions of the track. There are several very nice elevation changes and a few spots that are somewhat blind, so having prior experience is definitely a plus. While I had at some prior experience (dating back to a press event I attended there in 2002) and a vague recollection of the flow of the track, it still took me a while to get comfortable with it. Fortunately, as an S2000 owner, it took me almost no time to get comfortable with probing the limits of the CR, though.
The S2000 has always been at home on a track, so the CR's competence comes as little surprise. Guiding it through each apex was practically second nature, with the car mostly offering gentle reminders during those moments when you'd run out of skill. Like most cars, the CR likes best to be driven with smooth and sure inputs, but at the same time, you can go out there and play pitch and catch with it and still have fun. The only snag I hit had to do with my heel-and-toe downshifting. Basically it felt like I was unable to adequately reach the throttle pedal with my foot while toeing the brake, and as a result, my rev matching stunk. After trying several different tactics, I realized that my foot was in fact depressing the throttle pedal as I intended, but the lag in response from the DBW throttle system was keeping the revs from coming up quickly enough. I was a bit disappointed in this one issue, because besides the rev matching issue, there was no other DBW lag that I could sense.
Base vs. Base
Having started out with the CR, I figured the base '08 S2000 would be a letdown when I took it out for its inaugural lap. Au Contraire, Mon Frère - the base 2008 felt fantastic on Mid-Ohio. Certainly there was more body movement on the suspension compared to the CR, but it seemed like every move was well damped and in synch with the flow of the track - I never lost confidence in the car itself. Next up was the 2007 S2000. This reminded me of my very first track experience in an AP2, which happened in Japan back in 2003. Compared to the '08s, this car felt underdamped and undersprung, particularly in the rear. The somewhat floaty feel of the rear suspension was enough to erode confidence, particularly through turns 8, 10, and 11 where the hill crests kept the rear end moving around a lot. It was really more bark than bite, oeaThe only thing I preferred on the '07 vs. the '08 base S2000 was the on-center feel of the steering - I had noticed on the street portion of the drive that the steering of the '08 base model felt a bit more vague on-center than the CR, almost as if the CR had a bit of toe-in, vs. zero toe or even toe-out on the base model, and this sensation carried through on the straight portions of the track as well. Since there's technically been no changes in the steering gear between the '07 and '08 base models, I'm going to assume it was down to slight differences in alignment.
Laptimes
Since I knew we were going to be on track with the S2000s, I brought along my GPS-based RaceLogic Driftbox to log my laps. I will be the first to tell you that I'm generally not the fastest guy around a given track. Given enough time to learn a track and a car, I can turn some decent laps, but I'm keenly aware that there are several degrees of separation between my skills and a professional driver's (as Dan Wheldon was able to demonstrate), so keep that in mind when you see the laptimes below. Also, keep in mind that we ran the "club" configuration of Mid-Ohio, with the chicane in place between turns 1 and the keyhole.
The quickest car out there, unsurprisingly, was the S2000 CR, with which I was able to turn a pair of 1:51.0 laps. I was in the 1:52 range prior to our lunch break and then something must have clicked, because after lunch I was able to crank out laps in the 1:51 range pretty consistently. Next best was the '08 base model, which wasn't far behind with a pair of bests at 1:52.3. The '07 was a little bit behind that, at 1:52.9, but to be fair, I didn't spend as much time in the '07 working down my laptimes as I did in the '08 models. As I was reacquainting myself with the track, these best times happened in the afternoon, after the cars had been beat on a fair bit and the brakes were generally hot and smoky. I could easily imagine a CR, in the right hands and with fresh brakes and tires breaking well into the 1:40s, maybe even picking up a bit more time with the hardtop installed (for better aero). It wouldn't surprise me to see the base '08 model right there behind it, gapped by maybe a second and a half or so.
Traps
Coming off the big straight going into turn 7 (the one portion of the track where I was able to take a moment to glance at the speedometer), the base '08 seemed to carry the most speed of all 3 versions. With the speedo indicating 122-123mph (yeah, it seems the speedo is a bit optimistic, as well) on one or two of my "hotter" laps in the base '08, I noticed it was routinely carrying several mph more than what the speedo in the CR was reporting. At first I thought perhaps it was a production variance on the motors, with the CR's possibly being tighter than the one in that particular base car. But then I drove a few of the other CRs and then the other base car, and this discrepancy was fairly consistent. After a bit of thought, I decided that maybe the CR's bodywork (namely, the big wing) was possibly causing enough drag at those speeds to account for the difference, and after looking at the logs of my best laps in each car, that may be a part of the difference, particularly once the speeds surpass 100mph. Below that point the cars were virtually in a dead heat, but the base model starts to edge ahead slightly once beyond the century mark. While the CR may lose out some of the top end, according to the log files I was able to carry quite a bit more speed through some of the faster corners. For example, around turn 1 my peak speed was nearly 5mph better in the CR, and over 2mph faster on average overall, providing a 0.3 second advantage right there alone. The story was much the same through nearly all of the other turns on the track as well. Though some of that difference is probably due to the CR's improved tires, the only real way to tell would be to swap the wheels on both cars and run more laps. Unfortunately, we were unable to do that.
Conclusion
Overall, we really like the changes for the 2008 S2000, but we're still left with a somewhat bittersweet taste in our mouths. On the one hand, we're happy to see that Honda made the effort to give the brilliant S2000 the dignity of a final update. On the other hand, we're disappointed that the S2000 has been largely neglected from a development standpoint for a number of years, as well as for the fact that it took Honda this long to introduce the CR variant (2002-2003 seems like it would have been about the optimal time to introduce a CR). That said, we have high hopes that Honda is planning a suitable successor to the S2000, and we further hope that the plan includes a steady stream of evolutionary updates as well as a platform variant (such as a fixed coupe). Is the CR the car for you? Well, that depends upon how you'd plan to use it. If your plans include a substantial portion of time spent at track days, then it may just be the ticket. If you only plan to track your S2000 infrequently, the base '08 should do the trick. Either way you go, with the '08 S2000, you're getting the best S2000 chassis yet.
The S2000's Development since 2000
The S2000 debuted worldwide in late 1999 as a 2000 model, featuring the F20C - a 240hp 2.0L DOHC VTEC inline-4-cylinder that spun to a dizzying 9000 rpms. The specific output (120hp/L) of this motor put it way ahead of any other naturally aspirated mass production automobile motor offered to that point. 8 years later, the feat has yet to be matched by any other automaker (before you point to the Ferrari FXX, remember that it's not street legal, and with only 30 built in total, not exactly "mass-produced"). While many Honda enthusiasts were thrilled by the F20C, the high-strung nature of it generated some criticism. For the record, we never complained.
Honda seemed to take this criticism to heart, however, and for the first significant update to the S2000 (which came in the 2004 model year), the engine displacement was bumped up to 2.2L (and thus called F22C) and a revised transmission with a shorter final drive ratio was fitted. Additionally, the chassis received several key changes in 2004, with a larger 17" wheel/tire package, a slower steering ratio, and a redesigned rear suspension - the objective of these chassis revisions was to make the S2000 easier to control at the limits. (Historical note: this package of updates precipitated a change in the S2000's chassis designation to "AP2". 2000 through 2003 model S2000s have a chassis code designation of "AP1"). Until the 2008 model year, there were no further changes of note apart from a minor drivetrain update for model year 2006, when the S2000 was fitted with Honda's VSA (Vehicle Stability Assist) system. The fitment of VSA required a switch from a cable-actuated throttle body to a "Drive By Wire" system with an electronically actuated throttle body.
Bolt-on MMC?
While 2008 marks the first time Honda's introduced a trim level variant to the S2000 line in the United States, the overall changes fall more into the "fine tuning" category than anything else. Evidence to support this notion comes with the fact that the chassis code remains unchanged, and this S2000 is still called an "AP2". While the S2000 CR is a distinct variant, the distinction arrives via "bolt-on" upgrades. To some, this may come as a bit of a disappointment, but for others (such as yours truly), this "bolt-on" MMC opens new doors for possibly upgrading their own older S2000 models. In any case, given the S2000 platform's age, the approach Honda has taken for this final update clearly makes the most sense.
The letters CR represent "Club Racer", and as such the S2000 CR was designed for the guy who wants a ready-to-roll track car for weekend club racing events. To reduce weight, several items have been chucked, such as the A/C, radio, sound insulation, spare tire, jack, and convertible top and related hardware. The elimination of all this ballast results in a weight reduction of around 141 lbs. The A/C and radio can be added back as options, but that eliminates 42 lbs of the weight savings.
While the weight savings sound great, in order to meet Honda's dynamic objectives for the CR, some of those weight savings had to be offset with new hardware (yeah, "bolt-ons"). To stiffen the body, a brace has been bolted into the area vacated by the convertible top mechanism while up front, another brace is installed to stiffen the steering box. To reduce lift, improve stability, and generate downforce (when the aluminum top is in place), aerodynamic bodywork has been employed. Roll bar cowlings, a tire repair kit, wider rear tires, and slightly heavier suspension components and rear tires also add to the tally, with the sum total of additions weighing in at 42lbs. If you're trying to keep track of all this with a spreadsheet, relax - the net result is the lightest configuration for a CR model weighs 99lbs less than the base '08 model, or 51lbs less if you wish to have a roof over your head. In its heaviest form (with A/C, stereo, and hardtop in place), the CR comes in at right around 9 lbs under a base S2000.
Chassis Updates
For 2008, both S2000 models have benefited from suspension updates. First off,the base 2008 S2000 runs stiffer springs and dampers than the '07 model, to the tune of +7%/+9% (F/R) for the springs and +10%/+5% (F/R) for the dampers. For the CR, the suspension spring and damper rates compare to the '07 model as follows - +47%/+27% (F/R) for the springs and +65%/+39% (F/R) for the dampers. Honda's engineers determined that the increase in the CR's spring and damping rates called for a rear body brace in order for the stiffer suspension components to operate with more precision. Sway bars on the '08 S2000s have been enlarged up front on both the base S2000 and the CR, and the CR gets a larger rear bar as well. The wheel and tire package for the '08 base S2000 remains unchanged from the '07 spec but the CR sees 10mm of additional width on the rear tires (upgraded from 245/40R17s to 255/40R17s), and the CR's tires are all new super-sticky Bridgestone Potenza RE070s. 2008 marks the return of the AP1 S2000's original steering ratio of 13.8:1, but only in the CR model - the base '08 S2000 continues on with the AP2's slower 14.9:1 steering ratio.
Other Changes
Beyond the chassis tweaks and a new 5-spoke alloy wheel design, there are a few other minor details to note. A tire pressure monitoring system and a new gauge cluster have been fitted to both '08 models. The new gauge cluster ditches the AP2's triple rainbow configuration (thankfully) for a layout featuring a single continuous arc, with roughly the first 2/3rds of the arc occupied by the tach, and the remaining third split into two segments for the fuel and coolant temp gauges. The digital readout for the speedometer maintains its familiar central location, and on the CR, a special green LED indicator is located just to the right of the speedo. The function of this LED is to indicate when the motor is operating in its range of maximum power output. The LED begins blinking when the revs are approaching the range of maximum power, and goes solid when it's in the range of maximum hp. Further changes to the interior are limited to the CR. The CR gets a slightly shorter shifter, resulting in an even shorter shift stroke (-2.1 mm/-5.7%) with a modest increase of around 10% in effort. On top of this shortened shift lever is a CR-exclusive all aluminum shift knob. "Kevlar-inspired" yellow and black mesh fabric inserts and black faux-suede bolsters are used (instead of leather on the standard S2000) to upholster the CR's seats. Further differentiating the CR's interior is yellow stitching (regardless of exterior color), accenting the seat stitching, steering wheel, shifter boot, and door panel trim. The final CR-exclusive touch to the interior are "Carbon-Fiber-like" panels on the center console and the lid that normally covers the radio.
The Fast and the Amish
Following the customary technical briefing, our small group of journalists filed into a selection of 2008 S2000s for a drive route that would take us from Columbus into the Amish countryside of central Ohio, where we would weave around smushed horse pies (and their sources), before stopping for a respite at a small lakeside park, where we would switch cars and then point them towards Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course, our final destination for the weekend. (The only catch was that we arrived with the cars at Mid-Ohio on Saturday just after noon, but we couldn't actually drive them again until Monday all those pesky ALMS and Indy cars had finished up with their business on Saturday and Sunday. I have to say that this was one of the coolest press trips that I've been fortunate enough to be a part of - for our accommodations we each had a rented RV parked trackside right past the bridge at turn 1.)
Fortunately, my driving partner on the street portion managed to secure a CR for the first segment of our route. More often than not, these ride and drives have fairly balanced drive routes, where you set off in one car for some number of miles, then reach a car change point and finish up the route in another car (hopefully of a different trim level) covering roughly the same distance. Then every now and then, you have less balanced drive routes, where the car switch point gives you much more time in one car than another. Sometimes this works out in your favor, and sometimes it doesn't. On this occasion, it worked out in our favor, and we spent more quality time with the CR.
During this portion of the drive route, the CRs all had the hardtops installed, and one of the first things I noticed was that the S2000 CR is indeed a fairly loud vehicle - the fixed roof seemed to amplify just about everything. Of course, the sounds are mostly composed of mechanical purity, which is music to my ears - your mileage might vary, however. The second thing I noticed (from the passenger seat) was that even though the CR is mechanically identical to the base S2000 in terms of drivetrain, the tug from the motor felt quite spirited and somehow stronger than a run of the mill S2000, but then again, I rarely find myself in the passenger seat of an S2000.
When it was my turn to take the helm, everything felt very familiar, and very good. Now that I was behind the wheel, I was able to get a feel for the CR's steering - I was never fully onboard with the AP2s switch to a slower ratio, so having the AP1's quicker ratio back is a big plus in my book. While I wouldn't mind a bit more effort and a touch more feel, the steering responds quickly, directly, and naturally. Visibility with the hard top on was acceptable, and surprisingly the huge wing doesn't block much of the view out the back window. As for the body structure itself, I can't yet say with any certainty that I could feel the effects of the steering gearbox brace or even the rear chassis brace on the street, as the S2000's chassis is already well known for its rigidity, but for what it's worth, the CR felt very tight. If there's anything I'm able to sense in a standard S2000, it's an occasional bit of cowl flex over broken pavement, but the CR seemed pretty solid in this respect.
Coils and Dampers
As someone who was less than enamored by the AP2's softer suspension settings, I'm very happy with the CR's more aggressive suspension calibrations. Sure, there's a bit of a penalty in ride quality, but this is a sports car - the sharpened responses and unflappable composure more than make up for any such penalties. Unfortunately I didn't have too many opportunities to flog the CR on any seriously twisty roads, but from what I gathered, the car had a more settled and balanced feel to it than the AP2s I've driven. Grip from the RE070s felt quite good, but again, I'll wait for the opportunity to flog them on our normal test loop before coming to any final conclusions.
Shift
One of the S2000's highlights has always been the feel of its shifter, and I'm happy to report that the CR's shortened shifter still feels great. The claimed 10% increase in effort is all but imperceptible, but perhaps more importantly, there's no perceivable loss in feel or precision compared to the standard S2000's. Everything else is as you would find it in an AP2 - the F22C revs eagerly, though with the additional torque available, I'm still not convinced it needs a shorter final drive ratio than the AP1 had. The AP2's shorter final drive ratio and lower rev limit equate to lower shift points and tighter gaps between the gears. Being accustomed to my AP1 S2000 with its 9000rpm redline and nearly 65+mph reach in 2nd gear, it always takes me a while to adjust to the shift points when I drive AP2s, particularly since the motor still feels like it's yet to peak by the time you've run it into the limiter. I was reminded of this while attempting to make a quick pass in 2nd gear on one of the 55mph back-roads that was on our route. The car we were following was traveling around 30mph for seemingly miles, and though we were on a mostly straight and flat road and could generally see no oncoming traffic for a good mile ahead of us, we had the dreaded double yellow. That didn't stop two locals from blowing past us, but I lawfully waited for a passing zone. Once we finally reached it (many expletives later), the driver in front of me suddenly started speeding up, as if he had just realized that he had been traveling at around half the posted limit for the past half dozen miles. Of course, this happened just as I had dropped the CR into second and started to pull out around him. I stayed in it, thinking I had plenty of range to slip past him, but within a flash I ran out of revs and slammed into the limiter, and had to upshift into 3rd to complete the pass. As much as I like the improved pace of the F22C, it would have been nice if Honda could have maintained the 3000 rpm powerband of the F20C. See, with both the F20C and the F22C, the VTEC switchover to the big camlobes occurs at right around 6000 rpms. from this point on to the rev limiter, you're pretty much in the sweet spot of the powerband, so the F20C has a broader powerband. Perhaps a lower cam switchover point for the F22C would preserve some of the width of the powerband while still providing more overall oomph.
Track Impressions
After enjoying a full weekend of ALMS, Indycar, and Speed World Challenge action at Mid-Ohio, obviously the highlight of the entire press event was the day's planned activities on Monday, when we had Mid-Ohio all to ourselves. Following a commendably brief briefings up in the control tower, and a van lap, we were set loose in a selection of S2000s. On hand were a pair of base 2008 S2000s, a half dozen CRs, and for comparison, one or two 2007 S2000s. While some of my colleagues wanted to sample the cars progressively, starting with the '07 S2000, I didn't waste any time, and jumped right into an Apex Blue CR. I had been on Mid-Ohio one other time prior to this, way back in 2002 for an Acura press event showcasing their Type-S models. For that event, we drove Mid-Ohio's school cars, which at the time were RSX Type-S that had been prepped for sustained lapping - which means they had R-compound tires, tightened suspensions, and brake pad compounds that were designed to operate at the type of temperatures normally encountered on track. By comparison, the S2000s we drove were completely stock - as delivered from the factory.
If you haven't driven Mid-Ohio, it's a fairly technical track. While there are a few segments where you will reach triple digit speeds, most of the time seems to be made and lost on the twistier portions of the track. There are several very nice elevation changes and a few spots that are somewhat blind, so having prior experience is definitely a plus. While I had at some prior experience (dating back to a press event I attended there in 2002) and a vague recollection of the flow of the track, it still took me a while to get comfortable with it. Fortunately, as an S2000 owner, it took me almost no time to get comfortable with probing the limits of the CR, though.
The S2000 has always been at home on a track, so the CR's competence comes as little surprise. Guiding it through each apex was practically second nature, with the car mostly offering gentle reminders during those moments when you'd run out of skill. Like most cars, the CR likes best to be driven with smooth and sure inputs, but at the same time, you can go out there and play pitch and catch with it and still have fun. The only snag I hit had to do with my heel-and-toe downshifting. Basically it felt like I was unable to adequately reach the throttle pedal with my foot while toeing the brake, and as a result, my rev matching stunk. After trying several different tactics, I realized that my foot was in fact depressing the throttle pedal as I intended, but the lag in response from the DBW throttle system was keeping the revs from coming up quickly enough. I was a bit disappointed in this one issue, because besides the rev matching issue, there was no other DBW lag that I could sense.
Base vs. Base
Having started out with the CR, I figured the base '08 S2000 would be a letdown when I took it out for its inaugural lap. Au Contraire, Mon Frère - the base 2008 felt fantastic on Mid-Ohio. Certainly there was more body movement on the suspension compared to the CR, but it seemed like every move was well damped and in synch with the flow of the track - I never lost confidence in the car itself. Next up was the 2007 S2000. This reminded me of my very first track experience in an AP2, which happened in Japan back in 2003. Compared to the '08s, this car felt underdamped and undersprung, particularly in the rear. The somewhat floaty feel of the rear suspension was enough to erode confidence, particularly through turns 8, 10, and 11 where the hill crests kept the rear end moving around a lot. It was really more bark than bite, oeaThe only thing I preferred on the '07 vs. the '08 base S2000 was the on-center feel of the steering - I had noticed on the street portion of the drive that the steering of the '08 base model felt a bit more vague on-center than the CR, almost as if the CR had a bit of toe-in, vs. zero toe or even toe-out on the base model, and this sensation carried through on the straight portions of the track as well. Since there's technically been no changes in the steering gear between the '07 and '08 base models, I'm going to assume it was down to slight differences in alignment.
Laptimes
Since I knew we were going to be on track with the S2000s, I brought along my GPS-based RaceLogic Driftbox to log my laps. I will be the first to tell you that I'm generally not the fastest guy around a given track. Given enough time to learn a track and a car, I can turn some decent laps, but I'm keenly aware that there are several degrees of separation between my skills and a professional driver's (as Dan Wheldon was able to demonstrate), so keep that in mind when you see the laptimes below. Also, keep in mind that we ran the "club" configuration of Mid-Ohio, with the chicane in place between turns 1 and the keyhole.
The quickest car out there, unsurprisingly, was the S2000 CR, with which I was able to turn a pair of 1:51.0 laps. I was in the 1:52 range prior to our lunch break and then something must have clicked, because after lunch I was able to crank out laps in the 1:51 range pretty consistently. Next best was the '08 base model, which wasn't far behind with a pair of bests at 1:52.3. The '07 was a little bit behind that, at 1:52.9, but to be fair, I didn't spend as much time in the '07 working down my laptimes as I did in the '08 models. As I was reacquainting myself with the track, these best times happened in the afternoon, after the cars had been beat on a fair bit and the brakes were generally hot and smoky. I could easily imagine a CR, in the right hands and with fresh brakes and tires breaking well into the 1:40s, maybe even picking up a bit more time with the hardtop installed (for better aero). It wouldn't surprise me to see the base '08 model right there behind it, gapped by maybe a second and a half or so.
Traps
Coming off the big straight going into turn 7 (the one portion of the track where I was able to take a moment to glance at the speedometer), the base '08 seemed to carry the most speed of all 3 versions. With the speedo indicating 122-123mph (yeah, it seems the speedo is a bit optimistic, as well) on one or two of my "hotter" laps in the base '08, I noticed it was routinely carrying several mph more than what the speedo in the CR was reporting. At first I thought perhaps it was a production variance on the motors, with the CR's possibly being tighter than the one in that particular base car. But then I drove a few of the other CRs and then the other base car, and this discrepancy was fairly consistent. After a bit of thought, I decided that maybe the CR's bodywork (namely, the big wing) was possibly causing enough drag at those speeds to account for the difference, and after looking at the logs of my best laps in each car, that may be a part of the difference, particularly once the speeds surpass 100mph. Below that point the cars were virtually in a dead heat, but the base model starts to edge ahead slightly once beyond the century mark. While the CR may lose out some of the top end, according to the log files I was able to carry quite a bit more speed through some of the faster corners. For example, around turn 1 my peak speed was nearly 5mph better in the CR, and over 2mph faster on average overall, providing a 0.3 second advantage right there alone. The story was much the same through nearly all of the other turns on the track as well. Though some of that difference is probably due to the CR's improved tires, the only real way to tell would be to swap the wheels on both cars and run more laps. Unfortunately, we were unable to do that.
Conclusion
Overall, we really like the changes for the 2008 S2000, but we're still left with a somewhat bittersweet taste in our mouths. On the one hand, we're happy to see that Honda made the effort to give the brilliant S2000 the dignity of a final update. On the other hand, we're disappointed that the S2000 has been largely neglected from a development standpoint for a number of years, as well as for the fact that it took Honda this long to introduce the CR variant (2002-2003 seems like it would have been about the optimal time to introduce a CR). That said, we have high hopes that Honda is planning a suitable successor to the S2000, and we further hope that the plan includes a steady stream of evolutionary updates as well as a platform variant (such as a fixed coupe). Is the CR the car for you? Well, that depends upon how you'd plan to use it. If your plans include a substantial portion of time spent at track days, then it may just be the ticket. If you only plan to track your S2000 infrequently, the base '08 should do the trick. Either way you go, with the '08 S2000, you're getting the best S2000 chassis yet.
#657
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i need to win say about 80k by 2008 so i can get one
#658
Honda Announces Pricing on 2008 S2000 CR
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=122963
Date posted: 10-09-2007
TORRANCE, Calif. — Honda said on Tuesday that its club-racer-inspired 2008 Honda S2000 CR will have a starting price of $36,935, including a $635 destination charge.
The pricing puts the new variant of the S2000 squarely in between such competitors as the 2008 Mazda Miata MX-5 Grand Touring model and the base 2007 Porsche Boxster. The Miata MX-5 Grand Touring model starts at $27,355, including a $595 destination charge. The 2007 Boxster starts at $46,460, including an $860 destination charge.
The base 2008 Honda S2000 CR deletes such amenities as a stereo, air-conditioning and sound-deadening material in its quest for lightness. The S2000 CR equipped with air-conditioning and an AM/FM/CD audio system adds another $1,000 and starts at $37,935.
The factory-tuned S2000 CR gets track-oriented suspension settings, increased body and chassis rigidity, aerodynamic spoilers and a removable aluminum hardtop that replaces the base model's convertible soft top. Cabin amenities include a "peak power indicator" on the instrument panel and fabric seats with yellow stitching and faux suede bolsters.
The 2008 S200 is equipped with a 2.2-liter DOHC four-cylinder engine and a six-speed manual transmission. The engine delivers 237 horsepower at 7,800 rpm and 162 pound-feet of torque at 6,800 rpm.
The base 2008 Honda S2000 starts at $34,935, including shipping, which Honda says reflects a $50 price increase over the outgoing 2007 model.
What this means to you: The pricing strategy on the 2008 Honda S2000 CR appears to position the track-oriented car in the middle of the pack, which shouldn't be too hard to take if you're drooling for one.
TORRANCE, Calif. — Honda said on Tuesday that its club-racer-inspired 2008 Honda S2000 CR will have a starting price of $36,935, including a $635 destination charge.
The pricing puts the new variant of the S2000 squarely in between such competitors as the 2008 Mazda Miata MX-5 Grand Touring model and the base 2007 Porsche Boxster. The Miata MX-5 Grand Touring model starts at $27,355, including a $595 destination charge. The 2007 Boxster starts at $46,460, including an $860 destination charge.
The base 2008 Honda S2000 CR deletes such amenities as a stereo, air-conditioning and sound-deadening material in its quest for lightness. The S2000 CR equipped with air-conditioning and an AM/FM/CD audio system adds another $1,000 and starts at $37,935.
The factory-tuned S2000 CR gets track-oriented suspension settings, increased body and chassis rigidity, aerodynamic spoilers and a removable aluminum hardtop that replaces the base model's convertible soft top. Cabin amenities include a "peak power indicator" on the instrument panel and fabric seats with yellow stitching and faux suede bolsters.
The 2008 S200 is equipped with a 2.2-liter DOHC four-cylinder engine and a six-speed manual transmission. The engine delivers 237 horsepower at 7,800 rpm and 162 pound-feet of torque at 6,800 rpm.
The base 2008 Honda S2000 starts at $34,935, including shipping, which Honda says reflects a $50 price increase over the outgoing 2007 model.
What this means to you: The pricing strategy on the 2008 Honda S2000 CR appears to position the track-oriented car in the middle of the pack, which shouldn't be too hard to take if you're drooling for one.
#664
Senior Moderator
2008 Honda S200 Type-S
From leftlanenews.com:
Honda has released images of its S2000 Type-S ahead of the car's Tokyo Motor Show debut. Based on the standard S2000, the Type-S is very similar to the S2000 CR offered in the United States, but features a folding convertible top instead of an aluminum hardtop as well as a new rear wing.
Compared to a standard S2000, the Type-S will offer a stiffer suspension, increased rigidity, reduced weight and a unique aero kit. Honda hails the S2000 Type-S as the “closest thing you can get to a Honda-built racecar with license plate holders and a horn.”
The S2000 Type-S' engine will be the same as found in U.S.-spec cars –rated at 237 horsepower — and will be mated to a six-speed manual.
Compared to a standard S2000, the Type-S will offer a stiffer suspension, increased rigidity, reduced weight and a unique aero kit. Honda hails the S2000 Type-S as the “closest thing you can get to a Honda-built racecar with license plate holders and a horn.”
The S2000 Type-S' engine will be the same as found in U.S.-spec cars –rated at 237 horsepower — and will be mated to a six-speed manual.
#665
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so the only difference between the type-s and the CR version is the folding convertible top and rear wing?
#666
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Honda S2000 Type-S, yea you read right, Type-S
http://www.leftlanenews.com/early-lo...00-type-s.html
Type-S??? Wasn't that an Acura only brand? Wasn't Acura trying to distinguish itself apart from Honda? What gives?
Yet another great example of the minds at work at Honda/Acura.
Honda has released images of its S2000 Type-S ahead of the car's Tokyo Motor Show debut. Based on the standard S2000, the Type-S is very similar to the S2000 CR offered in the United States, but features a folding convertible top instead of an aluminum hardtop as well as a new rear wing.
Compared to a standard S2000, the Type-S will offer a stiffer suspension, increased rigidity, reduced weight and a unique aero kit. Honda hails the S2000 Type-S as the “closest thing you can get to a Honda-built racecar with license plate holders and a horn.”
The S2000 Type-S' engine will be the same as found in U.S.-spec cars –rated at 237 horsepower — and will be mated to a six-speed manual.
Compared to a standard S2000, the Type-S will offer a stiffer suspension, increased rigidity, reduced weight and a unique aero kit. Honda hails the S2000 Type-S as the “closest thing you can get to a Honda-built racecar with license plate holders and a horn.”
The S2000 Type-S' engine will be the same as found in U.S.-spec cars –rated at 237 horsepower — and will be mated to a six-speed manual.
Yet another great example of the minds at work at Honda/Acura.
Last edited by Sly Raskal; 10-24-2007 at 10:54 AM.
#667
Three Wheelin'
repizzle my nizzle.
The S2000 Type S is a softtop version of the CR. I wonder whether it has the rear bracing that the CR has, since that bracing goes in the space where the softtop belongs.
The S2000 Type S is a softtop version of the CR. I wonder whether it has the rear bracing that the CR has, since that bracing goes in the space where the softtop belongs.
#672
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Originally Posted by Ashburner
i thought the prelude was type sh
Originally Posted by Ashburner
Anyways, no increase in HP is a discrace to to Type S moniker
#673
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Originally Posted by Sly Raskal
http://www.leftlanenews.com/early-lo...00-type-s.html
Type-S??? Wasn't that an Acura only brand? Wasn't Acura trying to distinguish itself apart from Honda? What gives?
Yet another great example of the minds at work at Honda/Acura.
Type-S??? Wasn't that an Acura only brand? Wasn't Acura trying to distinguish itself apart from Honda? What gives?
Yet another great example of the minds at work at Honda/Acura.
Type S has been around for a good amount of time. It's not an American Acura acronym
#676
You'll Never Walk Alone
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Yea, type S has been around in Honda Japan for a long time. Europe has that too, ie, Civic Type S and Accord Type S. So if the S2k Type S is for Japan/Europe only, then it's not really a problem right?
#677
Senior Moderator
It is ironic that the Mugen Civic RR will have more hp than the S2K-S.
#678
Senior Moderator
:ghey: that it doesnt have a HP boost.