Honda: S2000 News
10-20-2006 | 12:32 PM
#441
Moderator Alumnus
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 16,399
Likes: 8
From: Washington DC (NOVA)
Originally Posted by vishnus11
I'm just as confused as you are....
The original two points being contested were that
1. The S2000 has "no torque" under 6k rpms for daily driving. I posted dyno plots that showed AP2's making at least 85% of their max torque above 2800rpms. It's by no means a torque monster, no where near in fact, but it is more than up to the task of daily driving, even when under 6000rpms.
2. The AP2 has "dumbed down" handling. I posted reviews, laptimes, and our own oonowindoo posted his comments regarding the equal or better handling of the AP2 that contradicted this assertion, and common misconception.
The original two points being contested were that
1. The S2000 has "no torque" under 6k rpms for daily driving. I posted dyno plots that showed AP2's making at least 85% of their max torque above 2800rpms. It's by no means a torque monster, no where near in fact, but it is more than up to the task of daily driving, even when under 6000rpms.
2. The AP2 has "dumbed down" handling. I posted reviews, laptimes, and our own oonowindoo posted his comments regarding the equal or better handling of the AP2 that contradicted this assertion, and common misconception.
I still remember the first thought right after the first two steps on the gas in first and second gears and at 2000rpm or so "this thing has more than enough torque at low rpm". And my second thought was "why the perception of lack of torque by the media?"
When you compare the S2000 as a vehicle with the average vehicle out there and forget about the number, it does not lack low or mid-rpm torque for every day driving. If you come biased by the media (and I was so) then if you have an open mind you will be pleasantly surpirsed, but if you come from driving a 350Z all day or even a 3.0L Z4, you will find lack of torque and totally different power and torque character, as it should be. And at that point the deciding factor for liking the car's character with respect to power/torque or not, will be personal preference. But when you compare it to reality's needs, the car is fine. And again, that's with an AP1, I am guessing the AP2 does even better in that category.
10-20-2006 | 12:38 PM
#442
Moderator Alumnus
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 16,399
Likes: 8
From: Washington DC (NOVA)
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
I remember a certain thread where i expressed my opinion concerning a certain acura without making any attacks, and vishnus struck first and quickest to point out that I'm an "idiot" or something along those lines. Contradiction isn't the word...the word is hypocrite.
Look up "Honda Fanboi" in a dictionary, and the cross reference will link you to "vishnus".
If you say something like, "The S2000 is a hot car, but it's too small for me", he would take that statement as honda bashing.
Guys, let's stick to cars' discussions. No personal points.
10-20-2006 | 12:42 PM
#443
Senior Moderator
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 17,903
Likes: 1,672
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
Look up "Honda Fanboi" in a dictionary, and the cross reference will link you to "vishnus".
If you say something like, "The S2000 is a hot car, but it's too small for me", he would take that statement as honda bashing.
...that does seem to be the prevailing trend. I have a Hondaphile friend who has a similar menta...er...mindset. If he found out that I bought a Toro 20070 instead of a Honda Harmony II (one of the few Hondas with RWD and some torque!!
), he would probably 
10-20-2006 | 12:44 PM
#444
Fahrvergnügen'd
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 13,494
Likes: 1,569
From: Maryland
Originally Posted by F23A4
...that does seem to be the prevailing trend. I have a Hondaphile friend who has a similar menta...er...mindset. If he found out that I bought a Toro 20070 instead of a Honda Harmony II (one of the few Hondas with RWD and some torque!!
), he would probably 
10-21-2006 | 05:52 PM
#445
Liquid Ice
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,909
Likes: 89
From: Northern Virginia, USA
Kinda funny that we're starting to compare cars that cost a lot more than the S2K to the S2K ... Is it that good that its worthy of comparison to cars $20K or more than it? ... I mean, obviously if money were no issue than the S2K would not be the car in my garage right now. Ferrari, Lambo, Aston Martin? Maybe. But a Honda? Its like when Jeremy Clarkson was looking for something to replace his Ford GT and he said he'd consider an S2000 but its just a Honda ... on the s2ki boards, owners were going nuts because of what he said. But its true, if you can afford something better, you probably wouldn't be behind an S2K. But for the money it provides some pretty impressive specs even 7 years after its release. I don't think any of the S2K owners here are trying to make the car out to be something it isn't ...
10-22-2006 | 02:08 AM
#446
Suzuka Master
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,579
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From: Chicago Suburbs
Originally Posted by LiQiCE
Kinda funny that we're starting to compare cars that cost a lot more than the S2K to the S2K
10-23-2006 | 12:19 PM
#447
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,622
Likes: 2
From: Lexington
Originally Posted by mrdeeno
I remember a certain thread where i expressed my opinion concerning a certain acura without making any attacks, and vishnus struck first and quickest to point out that I'm an "idiot" or something along those lines. Contradiction isn't the word...the word is hypocrite.
Look up "Honda Fanboi" in a dictionary, and the cross reference will link you to "vishnus".
If you say something like, "The S2000 is a hot car, but it's too small for me", he would take that statement as honda bashing.
You seem to be afflicted with the same "condition" that Maximized has - you just can't seem to read. Comb through this thread from beginning to end - you won't find one instance where I said that the S2000 was conclusively the BETTER car that a 350Z, Z4, or any other competiting vehicle. Each has its strengths and weaknesses - you choose which one that you as a consumer PREFER. If the S2000 was perfect, then Nissan wouldn't sell one 350Z and BMW wouldn't sell a single Z4. But its not.
10-23-2006 | 12:27 PM
#448
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,622
Likes: 2
From: Lexington
Originally Posted by F23A4
...that does seem to be the prevailing trend. I have a Hondaphile friend who has a similar menta...er...mindset. If he found out that I bought a Toro 20070 instead of a Honda Harmony II (one of the few Hondas with RWD and some torque!!
), he would probably I haven't tried to convince anyone here to buy an S2000 in lieu of another competiting vehicle, and I don't believe I have in any other thread. I haven't criticised anyone for buying another competiting vehicle, and haven't said that the S2000 is the best car in its class bar none.
The point of my posts (I can't speak for others) in this thread, was to state that the S2000 has
A. Adequate torque for daily driving
B. Equal if not improved handling in AP2 iterations
I posted articles & dyno plots to back this up. If you think that this gives me the "menta...err...mindset" of being someone who only backs Honda and criticizes others for not purchasing one instead of purchasing a competing vehicle, then there's nothing I can do.
10-23-2006 | 12:31 PM
#449
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,622
Likes: 2
From: Lexington
Originally Posted by gavriil
If these were the initial points then I can comment on the first point since I drove an AP1 (2000).
I still remember the first thought right after the first two steps on the gas in first and second gears and at 2000rpm or so "this thing has more than enough torque at low rpm". And my second thought was "why the perception of lack of torque by the media?"
When you compare the S2000 as a vehicle with the average vehicle out there and forget about the number, it does not lack low or mid-rpm torque for every day driving. If you come biased by the media (and I was so) then if you have an open mind you will be pleasantly surpirsed, but if you come from driving a 350Z all day or even a 3.0L Z4, you will find lack of torque and totally different power and torque character, as it should be. And at that point the deciding factor for liking the car's character with respect to power/torque or not, will be personal preference. But when you compare it to reality's needs, the car is fine. And again, that's with an AP1, I am guessing the AP2 does even better in that category.
I still remember the first thought right after the first two steps on the gas in first and second gears and at 2000rpm or so "this thing has more than enough torque at low rpm". And my second thought was "why the perception of lack of torque by the media?"
When you compare the S2000 as a vehicle with the average vehicle out there and forget about the number, it does not lack low or mid-rpm torque for every day driving. If you come biased by the media (and I was so) then if you have an open mind you will be pleasantly surpirsed, but if you come from driving a 350Z all day or even a 3.0L Z4, you will find lack of torque and totally different power and torque character, as it should be. And at that point the deciding factor for liking the car's character with respect to power/torque or not, will be personal preference. But when you compare it to reality's needs, the car is fine. And again, that's with an AP1, I am guessing the AP2 does even better in that category.
10-23-2006 | 12:39 PM
#450
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,622
Likes: 2
From: Lexington
Originally Posted by Maximized
Not really.....It's the fact that there is such a small niche market for 2 seater convertibles, so the S2K is compared to cars that cost more. The Vette and Elise, which were mentioned above, shouldn't be compared to the S2K in terms of performance.
If only I could figure out where to come up with the extra ~$200k.
11-16-2006 | 10:01 AM
#455
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,622
Likes: 2
From: Lexington
Originally Posted by rondog
I'm getting one this week, 2007 S2K, Silver with Red/blk interior, can't wait! starting negotiations at $29k, down from $34k msrp in a blink.
hit up S2ki . com for more FAQ's and info, and post pics in car talk once you pic er up.
The thing you'll hate most about it: staying out of VTEC for the first 600 miles! Make sure you check the oil on a regular basis during breakin.
11-16-2006 | 06:19 PM
#456
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 23,362
Likes: 4,273
From: Los Angeles
Originally Posted by rondog
I'm getting one this week, 2007 S2K, Silver with Red/blk interior, can't wait! starting negotiations at $29k, down from $34k msrp in a blink.
Welcome to the ultimate rattle/squeek monster
but it s a soft top convertible...so just get used to it
11-16-2006 | 07:20 PM
#457
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 4,426
Likes: 0
From: philly
I like the lastest s2000, looks great vs previous gens. My only real problem is that its so single purposed - driving with one passenger and nothing more. If you have the cash to just have a car for driving then cool, otherwise I can't see buying one considering there are other cars that are as fun with more than space for 2, ala mps mazda 3 wagon etc...
11-16-2006 | 09:12 PM
#459
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 4,426
Likes: 0
From: philly
Originally Posted by corey415
MZ3 as fun as an s2000?
I think not.
A true roadster should be impratical.
I think not.
A true roadster should be impratical.
If only roadsters were fun cars, all car prices wouldn't be more than that of a miata roadster- you know the best selling.
01-04-2007 | 11:25 AM
#460
Senior Moderator
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 47,710
Likes: 801
From: Toronto, Canada
http://www.leftlanenews.com/2007/01/...a-four-seater/
It hasn't been a success?
Honda's next sports car — which will fill the gap left when production of the S2000 ends — will have four seats and a more upscale look and feel, according to a new report by Winding Road. Sources say the rear-wheel-drive car will be smoother, more refined, and more luxurious than the raw and puristic S2000 roadster.
01-04-2007 | 11:41 AM
#462
Senior Moderator
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 47,710
Likes: 801
From: Toronto, Canada
Originally Posted by CGTSX2004
Not been a success?? 
I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if it's wrong...
I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if it's wrong...
01-04-2007 | 11:43 AM
#463
Suzuka Master
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,349
Likes: 3
From: Lower Nazzie, Pa
Originally Posted by dom
http://www.leftlanenews.com/2007/01/...a-four-seater/
Honda's next sports car — which will fill the gap left when production of the S2000 ends — will have four seats and a more upscale look and feel, according to a new report by Winding Road. Sources say the rear-wheel-drive car will be smoother, more refined, and more luxurious than the raw and puristic S2000 roadster.
Honda's next sports car — which will fill the gap left when production of the S2000 ends — will have four seats and a more upscale look and feel, according to a new report by Winding Road. Sources say the rear-wheel-drive car will be smoother, more refined, and more luxurious than the raw and puristic S2000 roadster.
If honda goes as far as making the s2000 an SUV (or hatchback thingy), I wouldn't be at all surprised.
Honda's new tagline..."First we put the 'sport' in the S2000, now we're taking it out!"
01-04-2007 | 11:46 AM
#465
Senior Moderator
Joined: Sep 2002
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Originally Posted by dom
Not sure its an opinion, since it came directly from Honda. I just always figured Honda never expected huge sales figures from the S2000.
I imagine the Senior Managing and Representative Director of Honda's Board of Directors would have a slightly better feel (than most of us) as to what constitutes a sales success for Honda. That said, I guess the profit margins were not what they had anticipated.
The prospective S2K replacement mentioned in Left Lane news has 'Acura' written all over it.
01-04-2007 | 12:35 PM
#466
The sizzle in the Steak
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 71,436
Likes: 1,877
From: Southern California
Way to go Honda....you are going to kill one of your best products.
....there is only one way to make this a good move...and that is that the next gen car becomes an Acura...with RWD.....but I doubt this will happen because Honda hates RWD for Acura.
....there is only one way to make this a good move...and that is that the next gen car becomes an Acura...with RWD.....but I doubt this will happen because Honda hates RWD for Acura.
01-04-2007 | 02:51 PM
#469
Banned
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 538
Likes: 0
From: Arizona
Originally Posted by corey415
The current s2k is a great car, but it's simply too hardcore for many of us.
I am definitely looking forward to what Honda comes out with.
I am definitely looking forward to what Honda comes out with.
I.e. Honda S2000 and Acura ??X.
01-04-2007 | 03:04 PM
#470
Senior Moderator
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 35,218
Likes: 15
From: Swansea, MA
2+2 RWD coupe ?? Cool... Too bad we'll have to wait till 2009 to see it...
I'll have to add this to the list of rumored rwd coupes (bmw 1 series, supra, G25c, etc) I'd like to see make it to production...
Looks like 2009 is going to be an interesting time to be a coupe buyer...
I'll have to add this to the list of rumored rwd coupes (bmw 1 series, supra, G25c, etc) I'd like to see make it to production...
Looks like 2009 is going to be an interesting time to be a coupe buyer...
01-04-2007 | 06:55 PM
#472
Drifting
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,339
Likes: 8
From: 905
He suggested a different approach would be taken for the car's replacement. He said the car's manual gearbox was a turn-off to many potential buyers. Shiraishi hinted the successor would have to offer a paddle-shift gearbox to broaden the appeal. The new sports car — whatever its name — is expected to arrive in 2009 along with the next NSX supercar.
01-04-2007 | 08:52 PM
#473
Senior Moderator
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 5,122
Likes: 30
From: Windsor, ON, Canada
Originally Posted by dom
Then I suppose it would be a 'failure' ... at the expense of a bunch of hardcore folks who swear by the S2k.Guess Honda wants to have their cake and eat it, too. Sporty yet the daily driveability. In this day and age ... I don't think there is such an animal.
(And no, I don't think a 3-series 'vert fits the bill).Perhaps a surprise concept will show up in Detroit or another autoshow in North America???
01-04-2007 | 09:49 PM
#474
Pro
Joined: Jul 2005
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He said the car's manual gearbox was a turn-off to many potential buyers.
01-05-2007 | 02:29 PM
#476
Team Owner
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 23,362
Likes: 4,273
From: Los Angeles
GO Honda.. fuck up the new s2000 so my 05 will be worth more!
S2000 = light, raw, high rev, super handling, fun to driver, A DRIVER"S CAR
new s2k should be IMO = 8k+redline. 2.4L I4 (more torque), RWD (NO AWD please), Hardtop as option (instead of accesory), and KEEP THE WEIGHT DOWN.....
dont care about the interior or features, because it is a Driver's car.
S2000 = light, raw, high rev, super handling, fun to driver, A DRIVER"S CAR
new s2k should be IMO = 8k+redline. 2.4L I4 (more torque), RWD (NO AWD please), Hardtop as option (instead of accesory), and KEEP THE WEIGHT DOWN.....
dont care about the interior or features, because it is a Driver's car.
01-05-2007 | 09:23 PM
#477
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,622
Likes: 2
From: Lexington
Meh, I can't believe that everyone's getting all worked up over this BS. Has anyone actually read the "Winding Road" article. It depicts a regular laguna blue 06 S2k with a couple of seats added in the back 
http://news.windingroad.com/countrie...n-extra-seats/
^ I've never heard of this website before and am inclined to believe that this is utter bullshit. Honda will not build a 2+2 version of the S2000. If anything, they might take the next gen S2000 platform, and make a more upmarket roadster with a DSG/SMG style gearbox, different styling and a more luxurious interior for Acura. Or stretch the platform and make a 2+2 coupe or something for Acura.
Honda S series is a roadster series meant to showcase Honda's technological prowess. It has a 50 year history that started with the S500 and led to the S600, S800 and now the S2000. I HIGHLY doubt their going to all of a sudden start building a 2+2 version of it with an automatic tranny to get "more sales" as the article put it.
http://news.windingroad.com/countrie...n-extra-seats/
^ I've never heard of this website before and am inclined to believe that this is utter bullshit. Honda will not build a 2+2 version of the S2000. If anything, they might take the next gen S2000 platform, and make a more upmarket roadster with a DSG/SMG style gearbox, different styling and a more luxurious interior for Acura. Or stretch the platform and make a 2+2 coupe or something for Acura.
Honda S series is a roadster series meant to showcase Honda's technological prowess. It has a 50 year history that started with the S500 and led to the S600, S800 and now the S2000. I HIGHLY doubt their going to all of a sudden start building a 2+2 version of it with an automatic tranny to get "more sales" as the article put it.
01-06-2007 | 08:02 PM
#478
Safety Car
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 4,426
Likes: 0
From: philly
Originally Posted by corey415
The current s2k is a great car, but it's simply too hardcore for many of us.
I am definitely looking forward to what Honda comes out with.
I am definitely looking forward to what Honda comes out with.
01-06-2007 | 08:19 PM
#479
Senior Moderator
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 35,218
Likes: 15
From: Swansea, MA
Originally Posted by vishnus11
Honda S series is a roadster series meant to showcase Honda's technological prowess. It has a 50 year history that started with the S500 and led to the S600, S800 and now the S2000. I HIGHLY doubt their going to all of a sudden start building a 2+2 version of it with an automatic tranny to get "more sales" as the article put it.
If they do "stretch" the s2000 out, they'll call it something else other then an Sxxx maybe XGA like it's been rumored about:
http://www.s2ki.com/Home/index.php?o...d=252&Itemid=6
01-26-2007 | 03:19 PM
#480
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,669
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From: Northern VA
http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=655584
The Feb 26th issue of Best Car has an article about "the final
version of S2000" and its successor. I thought it's something
everyone would like to know about, so I bought it, took it home, and
my scanner decides to give up its ghost. Oh well, I'll summarize what
I read though.
The Last S2000
"Loyal readers may remember that about 4 years ago, in 2003, Best Car
reported on the release of the S2000 Type R. Unfortunately it never
materialized. At that time, it was not just wild guesses and
Photoshop'ed art work. There was an actually S2000 Type R proposal
that leaked out from Honda sources describing the S2000 Type R. The
proposal was dropped at the last minute in favor of the 2.2L AP2 to
satisfy the need for more torque in the American market, while Japan
complained of the decision being very 'un-Honda.'"
Apparently Best Car has reason to believe that Honda is revisiting
this Type R proposal for the final model change for the S2000. They
call it the "lightweight package" and it will follow the Type R
proposal's target of 100kg weight reduction, bringing the car from
1250kg to 1150kg, changing the power to weight ratio from 5.16kg/ps
to 4.75kg/ps. This should provide performance at turbo levels but
with the direct feel of natural aspiration.
The S2000 Type R model year 2004 proposal (official document from
Honda) consisted of:
-target of 100kg weight reduction
-balanced engine internals (Type R treatment)
-Type R exclusive interior
-air conditioning becomes a factory option
-SRS air bag becomes a factory option
-sound deadening material deleted
-front tire: 205/55R16 to 205/45R17 (implemented on AP2)
-rear tire: 225/50R16 to 245/40R17 (implemented on AP2)
-Type R exclusive suspension tuning
-Type R exclusive uprated brakes
-Type R exclusive body color(s)
-spare tire deleted
-mechanical LSD
-power soft top deleted
-lightweight carbon hard top
-audio becomes factory option
The S2000 is expected to be discontinued before March 2008, so the
lightweight package should be sold sometime between now and then.
The next S
Honda has been tossing around many ideas on the next S. From 4 door
sports car to FF compact sports. But it seems they have decided to
stay with the FR roadster format, and are preparing a concept car in
time for the discontinuation of the S2000. But instead of targeting
the likes of SLK and Z4, they are going to go with a 2.0L engine and
battle it out with the long-time popular Mazda Roadster (Miata in
US). Engine will be the new Advanced VTEC K20A with an output of
about 200-220ps. It will be a milder engine than the S2000, and the
suspension tuning will also follow this route. Styling is said to be
heavily based on the S500/S600/S800, Honda's first 4 wheel
automotive. Dimensions will be slightly smaller than the S2000 with
an overall length of 4000mm, overall width of 1730mm, height of
1250mm, and wheelbase of 2400mm. That's about the same size as the
Mazda Roadster. The roof will be electric powered metal hardtop, and
the car should weight in at 1250kg, which is slightly heavier than
the Mazda, but the extra power in the S will more than make up for
it. It is also probable that the car will be available only with a
clutchless 6spd manual shift transmission. Release date is expected
to be near the end of 2008, with a price of 30,000,000yen
version of S2000" and its successor. I thought it's something
everyone would like to know about, so I bought it, took it home, and
my scanner decides to give up its ghost. Oh well, I'll summarize what
I read though.
The Last S2000
"Loyal readers may remember that about 4 years ago, in 2003, Best Car
reported on the release of the S2000 Type R. Unfortunately it never
materialized. At that time, it was not just wild guesses and
Photoshop'ed art work. There was an actually S2000 Type R proposal
that leaked out from Honda sources describing the S2000 Type R. The
proposal was dropped at the last minute in favor of the 2.2L AP2 to
satisfy the need for more torque in the American market, while Japan
complained of the decision being very 'un-Honda.'"
Apparently Best Car has reason to believe that Honda is revisiting
this Type R proposal for the final model change for the S2000. They
call it the "lightweight package" and it will follow the Type R
proposal's target of 100kg weight reduction, bringing the car from
1250kg to 1150kg, changing the power to weight ratio from 5.16kg/ps
to 4.75kg/ps. This should provide performance at turbo levels but
with the direct feel of natural aspiration.
The S2000 Type R model year 2004 proposal (official document from
Honda) consisted of:
-target of 100kg weight reduction
-balanced engine internals (Type R treatment)
-Type R exclusive interior
-air conditioning becomes a factory option
-SRS air bag becomes a factory option
-sound deadening material deleted
-front tire: 205/55R16 to 205/45R17 (implemented on AP2)
-rear tire: 225/50R16 to 245/40R17 (implemented on AP2)
-Type R exclusive suspension tuning
-Type R exclusive uprated brakes
-Type R exclusive body color(s)
-spare tire deleted
-mechanical LSD
-power soft top deleted
-lightweight carbon hard top
-audio becomes factory option
The S2000 is expected to be discontinued before March 2008, so the
lightweight package should be sold sometime between now and then.
The next S
Honda has been tossing around many ideas on the next S. From 4 door
sports car to FF compact sports. But it seems they have decided to
stay with the FR roadster format, and are preparing a concept car in
time for the discontinuation of the S2000. But instead of targeting
the likes of SLK and Z4, they are going to go with a 2.0L engine and
battle it out with the long-time popular Mazda Roadster (Miata in
US). Engine will be the new Advanced VTEC K20A with an output of
about 200-220ps. It will be a milder engine than the S2000, and the
suspension tuning will also follow this route. Styling is said to be
heavily based on the S500/S600/S800, Honda's first 4 wheel
automotive. Dimensions will be slightly smaller than the S2000 with
an overall length of 4000mm, overall width of 1730mm, height of
1250mm, and wheelbase of 2400mm. That's about the same size as the
Mazda Roadster. The roof will be electric powered metal hardtop, and
the car should weight in at 1250kg, which is slightly heavier than
the Mazda, but the extra power in the S will more than make up for
it. It is also probable that the car will be available only with a
clutchless 6spd manual shift transmission. Release date is expected
to be near the end of 2008, with a price of 30,000,000yen