TSX69

To be fair, Honda was probably working w/ the 2nd Generation #s as a target: 48/45/46 (2009's numbers that were out when the Insight debuted)
Granted they still trailed but by not quite as much. Hopefully the rumors are true & Honda is working hard on improving the IMA or creating something new & will make the 3rd generation Insight more competitive.

SSFTSX

That 10mpg difference is not supported by any Magazine test from Edmunds, Motortrend, Popular Mechancis to C&D.
It is only two to three mpg at best.
Second. Insight is cheaper car than Prius. it does not compete with Prius. Prius has 21cubic foot of cargo. It is another thing that Toyota has discounted Prius so much that price difference has become a moot point.

Insight has won two out of three tests.
driving hard with paddle shifters only make 4mpg difference.

TSX69

Honda's 2 Seat CR-Z has Lines of a Legend
Heart of a Hybrid

There are a few cars from Honda Motor Co. whose passing I really regret. Models like the low-slung Acura NSX sports car and lithe Legend were mega-cool. Not to mention the CRX, a terrier-sized 1980s hatchback with the heart of a lion.

Rest in peace, fellas.

Honda recently reanimated the ghost of the CRX, dubbed it the CR-Z, and sent it my way for a quasi reunion.

I slide the manual six-speed into third gear, mash on the accelerator and shoot over a crest. Not bad. A two-seater that weighs less than 2,700 pounds, the CR-Z looks like a futuristic CRX, sharing the same basic lines as the legendary Honda. The rear even has the same signature translucent hatch. Sweet.

Almost like seeing an old buddy again. Except that people change, especially when they reach back from beyond the grave.

The CR-Z is no CRX.

First of all, it’s a hybrid. While it comes with a beloved i-VTEC engine -- in this case the 1.5-liter, 4-cylinder found on the Fit eco-box -- it also has an electric motor. The result is a series of trade-offs that dilute the purity of its forebear.

I figure the CR-Z will hit 60 miles per hour in about 8 or 9 seconds -- not particularly quick. Gas mileage is 37 to 39 miles per gallon on the highway, compared with Honda’s Insight hybrid, which gets 43 mpg. Compromises on both sides.

Yet the CR-Z shows the direction that many car companies will travel in an effort to make fun and fast compatible with green and economical.

Sport Hybrid

Honda calls the coupe a sport hybrid, laying claim to a new niche. This is the first small car I’ve driven whose hybrid powertrain isn’t exclusively used for better gas mileage, as in the Insight and Toyota Prius.

Still, the concept of using batteries for added oomph is not unique. BMW and Porsche are using hybrid technology to augment torque and horsepower in the ActiveHybrid 7 and Cayenne Hybrid SUV respectively. Even Ferrari is working on a hybrid.

With a small engine and weight of less than 2,000 pounds, the CRX was fairly eco for its day, getting 33 mpg on the highway. Born in 1984 and living until the early ‘90s, it appealed to teens and 20-somethings. I’d still happily jump in one today.

I wonder if the CR-Z will generate the same excitement. Will 19-year-olds covet one? The price, which starts under $20,000 and tops out with all the amenities, including navigation, for around $24,000, certainly helps.

It is a stylish little thing. Whether you like the forward- tilted shape and snub nose, the CR-Z certainly offers a distinct point of view. Even with cloth seats, the interior is a success, with a funky, tiered front dash and dynamic instrument cluster.

Cubby Hole

No back seats though. Instead there is a plastic cubby hole for storage.

New technologies are tricky. When you’re done admiring the design and actually begin driving, the CR-Z suffers from a rubbery, artificial feel.

As soon as you step on the gas something seems amiss. While acceleration pedals were historically connected by mechanical cables, the CR-Z’s is basically an electronic sensor. The lack of tactile feedback is akin to the auditory difference between a vinyl record and an MP3 file.

This disconnect is further complicated by three driving modes: econ, normal and sport. Depending on your selection, a computer decides how much power it will dole out from the 113- horse gas engine and 13-horse electric motor.

Sleepy Start

Step hard on the gas in econ mode and it seems more a suggestion than an imperative. The powertrain indolently awakens like a sleepy St. Bernard who’s been sampling the cask around his neck.

It should be noted that the EPA figures of 35 city and 39 mpg highway were calculated in normal mode. You’ll likely get better in econ.

On back roads I switched into sport and began shifting gears at the highest revs allowed. Under this type of driving the electric motor’s job is to deliver extra power rather than gas savings.

After 50 miles of hard driving, the computer told me that I’d managed a scant 22.5 mpg. “I bet that’s a record,” muttered a colleague.

I was testing a model with a six-speed manual, the first time I’ve ever seen one on a hybrid. It’s a happy surprise that Honda spent the time and money to develop it. (I recently wrote about the oncoming death of manual transmissions.)

The stick goes a long way to overcoming the computer-like essence of the car. Think of it as an olive branch to purists. Otherwise you can opt for a CVT transmission, similar to the one you’ll find on the Insight. You can still approximate gear changes via paddle shifting, although it’s less fun.

Light Weight

Two other bright spots: braking feel is quite good, without the sponginess of many regenerative systems that use braking energy to replenish batteries. And given its steady steering and relatively light weight, the CR-Z handles decently in the curves. You can throw it around -- almost like an old CRX.

Which makes me wonder: What if Honda had done without the hybrid stuff and simply put in a high-revving (and still pretty green) gas motor from the Honda Civic Si?

That’s a ghost I’m dying to meet.

The 2011 Honda CR-Z at a Glance

Engine: 1.5-liter 4-cylinder and electric motor, with combined 122 horsepower (total hp varies from sum of parts) and 128 pound-feet of torque.

Transmission: 6-speed manual or continuous variable transmission.

Speed: 0 to 60 mph in about 9 seconds.

Gas mileage per gallon: 31 city, 37 highway with manual; 35, 39 with CVT.

Price as tested: $24,000.

Best features: Cunning exterior and interior design.

Worst feature: Artificial driving feel.

Target buyer: The sporting tree-lover.

(Jason H. Harper writes about autos for Muse, the arts and leisure section of Bloomberg News. The opinions expressed are his own.)

To contact the writer of this column: Jason H. Harper at Jason@JasonHharper.com.

biker

phile

I was talking about the ceiling in the back area, not the back seat itself.

oonowindoo

IF they can put a battery in the 1.5L Fit engine.. why can't they put a battery in a K20???

This CR-Z with K20 Hybrid is worth the few thousand over a civic Si.... not a 1.5L tho.


put the battery in a F22C make the CR-Z RWD... charge 32k i would buy it!!

i just dont get it... what kind of 25 years old want 125 HP and go to canyon?

fsttyms1

Are you going to honestly sit there and tell me that the insight isnt competing against it? Seriously. Look at the 2 cars. Honda is so lame they had to mimic the cars look almost to a T The Prius is the most well known hybrid out there, its really the only other out there (though ford does have it in the fusion, but that car is something you wouldnt compare the insight to) and IS what honda set out to take market share away from.

And those numbers are being achieved and then some by Prius owners. I know a few individuals that are getting well better than those numbers in real life driving.
And what does driving hard with paddle shifters have to do with any thing? I can drive my TL hard and can still get over 30mpg hwy and can do so getting to where im going much quicker than the insight or crz

fsttyms1

It would probably get better mileage with the K20 alone. The motor wouldnt have to work nearly as hard to motivate the car.

SSFTSX

Insight isnt competing against Prius. One has low tech 8V 1.3L engine the other is 1.8L.
Second Toyota Corrolla S/XRS and Camry SE looks the same but it does not mean they are competing against each other. You know Camry is well known sedan. so Corrolla is designed after that. Technology behind Insight is way cheaper. with similar technology like Prius. Honda car will be priced closer to $30K.
Insight owners have also achieved much better numbers than EPA. Read the Edmunds column. it is only 2mpg difference for identical driving condition.
Freeway driving dont mean much for hybrids. at 70 to 80mph I can get 35mpg on TSX. which is pretty similar to Fit/Honda Civic. and my performance in midrange from 45mph to 100mph is way better than those econoboxes.
which is not the case between Insight & Prius. Both has identical performances, pretty similar fuel economy and Insight is $2500 cheaper offcourse excluding Toyota discounts.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

What? In your first rebuttal you say the cars arent competing with each other, then in the second go on to say they are identical.

Choose your battles much?

BTW, try telling these guys these cars cant be compared.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...est/index.html

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...risons/4309705

http://www.insideline.com/toyota/pri...ota-prius.html

http://www.caranddriver.sg/reviews/c...mparison_tests

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/au...ht_versus.html

http://blogs.edmunds.com/strategies/...ota-prius.html

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2...ota-prius.html

SSFTSX

They dont compete each other but they identical fuel economy. which practically make no difference.
Most Magazines compared Honda Civic Hybrid with Prius. but Honda Civic Hybrid has higher slolam speeds than Prius.
There are tons of comparsion tests between VW TDI and Toyota Prius but it does not mean they are competing against each other.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

lol ya....that's probably a better idea

fsttyms1

Maybe they compared the Civic to the prius BEFORE the insight came out but now that its out THAT is the car it competes with. The Prius is what Honda designed the Insight to compete against.

The comparison tests with the VW were more to do with Hybrid vs Diesel

SSFTSX

Insight is EPA compact car while Prius is EPA midsize car. they hardly belong to same class. Honda intends to create a chaper and less sophisticated car without much investment.
Insight has won two out of three comparision tests for such simple product.
And mpg is not a big difference when push hard. Insight/CRZ/Prius are pretty similar but CRZ has better handling and one second quicker.

Insight.
CRZ fuel economy with 6speed manual


It takes 35 second for Prius 0-100mph but takes only 26 second for CRZ
0-100mph.

JD23

2011 CR-Z: Slower and less fun to drive than a 1987 CRX Si. At least it gets better mileage.

http://www.insideline.com/honda/cr-z...da-crx-si.html

SSFTSX

Edmunds is using Motortrend data of CRX i believe with CRZ. Edmunds is pretty conservative than other magazines in performance tests.

Both Motortrend tests. result are pretty indentical. even though CRZ has 16inch standard. I




http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...ive/specs.html
0-60 mph 8.3 sec
Quarter mile 16.4 sec @ 83.6 mph
Braking, 60-0 mph 122 ft
Lateral acceleration 0.84 g (avg)


http://www.insideline.com/honda/cr-z...da-crx-si.html
In deference to Chris Hoffman's CRX Si's age and 108,500 miles, we're using performance numbers generated by Motor Trend in its issue of March 1985, which featured coverage of the 1985 Honda CRX Si. The CRX galloped to 60 mph in 8.1 seconds (with 1 foot of rollout like on a drag strip) and ripped through the quarter-mile in 16.2 seconds at 84.5 mph. That's not terrible performance today, and it was terrific performance for back then. Faster than the Mitsubishi Mirage Turbo, Pontiac Fiero V6 and Toyota MR2, the editors noted.

fsttyms1

So you go from saying that the Prius and the Insight arent to be compared because one is midsize one is compact, YET you compare a 2 door 2 seat CRZ with it and then have the gull to add when pushed hard the MPG is similar?????

fsttyms1

The point is is that a car from 1985/7 WITHOUT IMA is faster and better MPG
Look at those numbers. The CRZ (better yet the IMA) is a JOKE.

SSFTSX

No one has calculated CRX SI fuel mpg under similar conditions to CRZ. and faster is moot time as we dont know mid range performance and perormance beyond 90mph to truly check aero efficiency. we know from Autocar data that CRZ goes to 0-100mph in about 26 seconds.
CRZ is wider, heavier by 50%, having heavier wider 16 inch tires/rim, engines having among the lowest emissision, and still get better mpg.
It is called efficiency.

fsttyms1

Seriously, No where is faster talking about outright top end. So we dont need to know performance beyond 90. Look at the 0-60 and 1/4 times, that is enough to say faster. GO read the article.

And that is part of the other point. The old CRX was LIGHTER. This car (CRZ) is overweight, underpowered and the hybrid tech is not worth it in this case as the MPG figures suck!

JD23

Edmunds did point out that the CR-Z is rated to have higher mileage than the CRX Si, which was tested in the previous article. The CR-Z has lower mileage than the CRX Hf, which is quite a bit slower than the CR-Z.

fsttyms1

I used to have a Si and i could easily get 38-40 on the HWY, and that was with a heavy foot at speeds well above the speed limit.
hell my 88 prelude i use for ice racing gets 35 on the hwy

SSFTSX

Thats the wrong way of looking into it. I can also get 35mpg on freeway from 3500lbs TSX that is as wide as a full size car.
but in city driving. it drops to 20 to 21 mpg.
thats the sweet spot of CRZ. It will still get 35mpg in city and more than 40mpg on freeway as even with heavy paddle shifters it got 38mpg.
you cannot say the same about Prelude or CRX SI fuel economic in city. Hybrids fuel economy suffers with brisk driving more than regular car but in daily use it achieves much better.

Look at this comparision. where EVO magazine put it through the harshest test on fuel economy. Seat Ibiza is 1.4 TDI diesel. (Real world of this car is close to 60mpg). VW Scricoco 1.4 TFSI. (Real world of this car is 45mpg)

CRZ kill them in urban crawl and even in the rapid Cruise where diesle usually shines.

fsttyms1

Why is that the wrong way of looking at it? I could give a rats ass about city mpg. 95% of my driving is HWY. Give me something that shines there. CRZ does not. And who here besides you is comparing brisk driving MPG? No one!

Legend2TL

My older brother had a red 1986 CRX Si, had some great times in that car. Basically the same as the 1987 with non-symmetrical 4 hole wheels.

SSFTSX

Hybrids are efficient in city driving or stop & Go traffic. they are not good for long highway speeds. but it does not take away the point that Honda IMA system is not crap but actually works for its intended market.
CRZ is 10% expensive than Civic EX coupe but with 25% more economy on Fit chasis/engine.

similar is Insight advantage over Fit/Civic.

Edmunds got into 51 mpg and now Motorweek also so IMA is not a crap system if it is used in way it is supposed.

mavriq81

interesting

Legend2TL

One area they don't mention in the comparison is safety. As much as 1G CRX's are fun to drive they are also death boxes, they performed pretty badly on the NHTSA crash tests.

JD23

That's true. One of the reasons that the CR-Z is 50% heavier is that it is likely exponentially safer. With the current safety standards, the Smart Fortwo is about the only modern vehicle (excluding Lotus) that weighs less than 2000 lb.

SSFTSX

Also wider tires contribute better ride and handling but decrease fuel economy.. no one has tested CRX fuel economy on 195/16.
it will give atleast 10% difference.
with each generation tires are getting wider and bigger along with frontal area of the car.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

My first car (88 Civic hatch, nearly identicle weight to the CRX Si) had the same size tires on it. With a D15b VTEC motor, an Si tranny, and my heavy foot I pulled 38-42mpg consistently. And that was with sticky summer tires.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

And what about the chassis stiffness of the CR-Z? According to the articles I've read, its stiffness is around the same as the FD2 Type R (which is 50% stiffer than the DC5 Type R, and the DC5 Type R is 116% stiffer in static torsional rigidity over the DC2 Type R....and obviously the DC2 Type R is much stiffer than the CRX.....). And we are car enthusiasts, there's no need to explain how making a chassis stiffer would add more weight...right?

And what about all those features that the CR-Z has over the CR-X? And still, people complain about how the CR-Z doesn't have enough features...

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Ive not complained about features other then performance and MPGs.

Whos complaining about the feature set?

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Hmm, for instance, a member called mlody at TOV mentioned that there's no sunroof for the CR-Z.

MyCarIsntInMyWifesName

It doesn't offer a sunroof? Just some more lame from this stupid, pointless car.

I'd honestly rather have a that horrible new Lexus hybrid thing.

fsttyms1

Legend2TL

That's a bummer. The sunroof on the 1G CRX was the kind the slide outside the top of the roof, it was pretty large considering how small the car was.

Legend2TL

, oh so true. I had my 89 Legend for a few days when I picked up my 05 TL and the difference in the chassis rigidness between those two cars was alot (1G Legend was ~3100lb and 3G TL was ~3500lb).

Also some of the steel alloys have improved some since the 80's. I thought on the TL they used 3 (4?) different types of steel alloys for the uni-body and body panels. That probably makes them more rigid and stiff for some areas and provides crush zones for other areas.

PortlandRL

Well folks, my flame suit is on because I'm about to jump crews onto the pro-CR-Z bandwagon and here's why.

As many of you know (and as I mentioned in this thead), I work moving new cars around at the Port of Portland which also happens to be one of Honda's entry ports into the United States. We have already gotten two shipments of CR-Zs and we are holding them until the August release date. Well today we had time to kill so the boss let us go over and check them out. Hybrid system shortcomings aside, I see this car having no problem selling like hotcakes.

For starters it is far better-looking in person then it is in photos. If you glance at it, the front appears to have some serious Audi R8 traits in the design and it certainly makes you do a double-take. The side profile is sharp and aggressive and the rear is nicely shaped although some of the people there picking the car apart weren't crazy about the shape of the taillights. The exterior door handles are the vertical type, echoing back to the CRX. This car looks like nothing else on the road and won't have any trouble turning heads on the street.

The interior is certainly a modern retro theme with the gauges being a focal point of the 'cool' factor. They appear almost 3D and the blue accents 'pop' out, leaving digits and the like recessed. The tachometer is analog and the only gauge of its kind in the car and it includes a digital speedo within its center void. The IMA, fuel, and coolant temperature gauges are LCD bar graphs and there is even a shift-up or shift-down suggestion light. I checked out the stick shift and while the travel is a little long, it's not rubbery or notchy in any way. My only complaint is that it's virtually impossible to grab 5th gear without going too far over, headed for reverse. Interior plastics are decent, the seats are comfortable and seem to be of a heavy-duty but soft fabric. Controls are typical Honda ergonomic with all buttons clearly marked. The entire center stack is cantered towards the captain's chair which provides a very driver-centric feel.

One big downside is visibility. The 3rd brake light creates an unwelcome split in the view out of the rear-view mirror, much like the view you'll get in any 2nd or 3rd generation Toyota Prius. Even worse, the blind spot over the driver's right shoulder is enormous and should have no problem hiding a Suburban-sized vehicle. Lane changes should be executed with extreme caution.

The hatch opens high but the lift-over is hip-level on my 6' even frame so make sure that golf bag clears before swinging it over. A subwoofer resides on the driver side of the cargo area and a temporary spare complete with tool kit reside just under the floor.

I haven't driven it yet but as soon as I get the chance, I'll post my impressions.