Hapa DC5

I think it has a fairly realistic chance of hitting 40k units per year.

Moog-Type-S

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

You make it so easy. Why don't you apply for an executive position? Maybe Honda will hire you when you say something like this in an interview?

Colin

^^Another great post, are you actually going to SAY anything of consequence?

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

^ at least I don't BS like you.

VTEC Racer

That would require the possession of intelligence and a brain to utilize said intelligence. That, my friend, is asking for too much.

Colin

Exactly. This is 'low hanging fruit' in that the only real cost is new sheetmetal dies. Most everything else comes out of the parts bin. Let's say that the dies are paid for at 40K units. Everything after that is gravy.

dom

But the development and R&D required for the Crosstour is 100x as much as it would take to add a freakin MT to the TSX. I don't want to drag this topic back up. But if we're going to discuss risk vs reward than it seems there's far less risk with the TSX. Just my

dom

All that applies to the TSX as well and at an even more basic level. Why are you so against one, but for the other?

Its somehow ok to add production cost to the Accord line but those few extra bucks saved to add a MT to the TSX is somehow money well saved in recessionary times. And yes, I know about safety testing and everything else that goes into another trimline.

We'll see about those 40K units a year. The Insight was supposed to sell 100K per and we all know how thats going.

Colin

But there's way less reward too. Year to date, Acura has sold 25,000 TSXs. If 6-speeds are the usual 10% take rate, this is 2500 cars (IMO barely worth the effort). BUT some of those 25000 are V-6s. Our store seems to be in the 30% range but I don't pretend to speak for others. But if it was a 30% V-6 rate and MTs follow the usual 10% rate, this is only 600 cars a year. To make matters worse, this is made in Japan, making it less profitable than the domestically built Crosstour. Again, less reward. I also doubt it's 100X development costs (I know you were throwing out an example) But even if it cost 100X more, they're going to sell 100x more over it's production run.

Colin

I'm not 'for' the crosstour. I am only saying it cannot hurt Honda's mission to penetrate a market they currently have no presence in. A dealer getting an extra .5 6MT V-6 TSXs a month is not worth the hassle. We already have too many models and colors and not enough production. Who needs both Taupe and Parchment interiors?

For example, people are always complaining that you don't have enough choice with Acura. They grumble that you can't option the polka dot seats with the 8 track player. They grumble that Acura should go back to the good old days. Remember that from 99-01 there was only two versions of the TL: base and navi (6 exteriors and 2 interiors). I can say with confidence that we sold a bunch of cars back then and most people were pleased with their purchases

Today we have 8 versions of TL and it hasn't improved sales one bit. Every time someone comes in today, we don't have what they want. This means the change their color choice or settle for a different model or they wait 3 months. Customers are not happy when faced with this reality. They put off a purchase, shop elsewhere or rip you on the survey because Acura offers a light blue TL with a taupe interior, but we only had a black interior.

dom

We've had a TSX MT discussion enough times. I'm not getting into it again and I can't argue with your numbers. But at some point a company has to take the customers wants into consideration and take one for the team so to speak. The MT in the V6 was the perfect opportunity. And all your numbers and points as valid as they are, don't and can't explain the MT TL.

The ze Germans don't seem to have those problems yet have even more choice. Although we could come up with a myriad of reason's why that is.

And I don't think the TL's problems have anything to do with how many versions there are. They could offer another 20 and I doubt sales would improve.

Like I said, I don't have a problem with the concept of the Crosstour. Entering new markets is generally a good idea. (TSX Touring ) Its the damn execution that I can't get over.

Colin

I agree. And in the past, they have exhibited a willingness to do so. I think we'd all agree, that with the current situation, it's not the best time for "take one for the team" type projects. Agree to disagree?

dom

Yet we have the TL MT... We'll go around in circles with this one so let's just agree that I'm right.

LessisBestmakingendsmeet

The TLs failure is not based on option packages. Its the no option styling and higher pricing. If the color is not what people want, either H.Q didn't do their research or/and the dealer is ordering the wrong cars.

Hapa DC5

I don't want to bring the TL in the Crosstour discussion but I will say if I were to replace my 3g now, it would either be a G37 sedan 6MT or 7AT or a TL SH-AWD.

A 6MT TSX V6 would be icing on the cake as I like Honda and have always had one in my stable since I received my license. I've had over 5 Honda/Acura products in the last ten years three have been new. I'm pretty loyal to this company and have been rooting for them for years. The front of the new TLs are too much for me. Tone down that grille and I'd come back when I'm ready for my next car. Either that or get a TSX V6 or jump ship completely to Infiniti.

Colin

The TL is domestically produced, this probably changes the profit picture considerably. Also, the TL was supposed to sell in the 70,000/year range, this could have meant ~7000 per year of the MT. Of course, it hasn't turned out that way, but when the green light was given for a new transverse 6MT, who could have known the economy would tank?

LOL you're right? I thought it was more like this:

biker

The adoption of the AWD for this model was probably not cheap, nor were all the other changes that needed to be done to the Accord platform. I'm sure it was a lot more than most folks imagine. And I seriously doubt Honda would bank on making back the R&D costs on just one years worth of sales. As Dom mentioned the idea was right (platform whore the Accord for another model) but the execution was horrible.

(Cj)

I don't know if anyone else saw this but only 485 Crosstours were sold last month...

JediMindTricks

i didn't even know they're for sale already.

dom

See, this is where we differ. IMO the 6MT should have never been green lighted to begin with regardless of the economy. The car isn't aimed at those who would want a MT so it was a bad idea from the beginning. Economy or not, putting it in to the TSX would have been a far better choice.

dom

But when in Nov did it go on sale?

Either way, no way in hell this thing sells 40K per year. I'm guessing 15-20.

Colin

I honestly don't know any real numbers any better than you do so it's all speculation. Maybe this signals a possible future for RealTime to start trickling into other Accord models? Kinda like the RL's SH made it's way into other Acuras?

I think it's easy to view any decision in hindsight. But as I always point out, the lead times for automotive decisions are terribly long (why am I always saying this?). The economy was not an issue when this car was developed 3-4 years ago. So it's easy to see that based on the success of the 2007 TL-S that they would start working on a successor that would take it up a notch. Also, who is to say that the 6MT AWD drivetrain won't find it's way into another car... say a Acura coupe?

biker

The official release date was Nov 20 - so, not many selling days. Like the Insight, it will take a few months to really tell if the sales will live up to expectations.

I'm thinking it would have been cheaper for Honda to put 1K in incentives on every Accord than bring this model out and achieve the increased overall sales volume goal.

(Cj)

I don't want to read too much into the 485 sold, but if you multiply that by 3 (since it only sold for 10 of the 30 days in the month), you only get 1,455.

dom

In hindsight

I've been saying the same thing about the TL MT since the day it was announced.

Colin

But were you saying it in 2007?

dom

If I knew what the 4th gen was, then yes I would have. The TL was a different beast back then. A 4K lb mammoth sedan doesn't attract the types of buyers typically going after an MT. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they offer it. But if money was the issue behind the TL being the only one that got an MT, the money would have been better spent elsewhere.

They made the wrong decesion, it shouldn't get more complicated than that.

Colin

And this is all I meant when I made the 'hindsight' comment.

JediMindTricks

one of these has been parking next to me in the garage at work.

i've never been a fan of it in pics but hoped that it would look better in real life.

i dunno if it's my bias towards wagons (or wagon-looking cars like the venza) or just wanting to really like this car, but it does look better in real life.

when i start looking at the car from the rear to the front, i really do like it. the front is just wacky to me. and the wheels look too small. just too bad.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Ive seen a few on dealer lots (none on the streets here) and Im not really a fan. The front doesnt really mesh well with the rear end, but I feel the same way about the Accord coupe.

The ZDX on the other hand has really grown on me.

SHYUperman

iTrader: (1)

I've seen numerous crosstours around the DC area... looks ugly in person

My wife seems to like it...

biker

Not only ugly but wrong. If the wagon is good enough for the TSX why not a regular wagon Accord? I still see some 95-96 Accord wagons, they look great and are very versatile - I even looked to buy one. They certainly could have sold enough wagons and the development costs would have been lower than the Crosstour. We'll just have to wait to see the sales levels - I hope they pull it off, despite the Aztec ugliness.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

The mules running around with the Euro Accord/TSX wagon rear and the USDM Accord front looked very nice IMO.

JediMindTricks

and

Infamous425

the new Oddy grill on the crosstour would help a little

biker

Assuming that the production Oddy grille will look like the prototype might be a strech.

RkFast

My 2 cents on the Crosstour..

Im RIGHT in its demo..mid (ok, late) 30s, young kids, from a utility standpoint, its perfect for me. I took ONE LOOK at the price tag and laughed my azz off.

Go ahead, Honda...convince me this abomination is worth almost ten grand more than a Subi Outback, considered the "gold standard" of wagons.

And the ZDX?????? Youve got to have a TON of "eff you money" to waste it on a 50K wagon.

Its not that its such a bad car..there IS a market for it. Its that Honda overpriced it by a good 10K each, across the board.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Well the problem with pricing is that its equipped similarly to the Accord EX which is about $30k anyway. So considering whats included, its not a bad price. But then you look at the rest of the competition, and the price stands out a bit more (not in a good way).

biker

^ that's the other problem with the Crosstour vs. a regular Accord wagon. They optioned the Crosstour in such a way as to make it overpriced in many people's eyes. An Accord wagon LX could be made and sold for something like $500 above an Accord LX sedan.