gavriil

I would take the NSX over whatever BMW had to offer in 2000. And probably beyond that...

SPUDMTN

darrinb

this is turning into a war, lol

gavriil

No it's not.

SPUDMTN

Maximized

Never driven a Type R, but owned a FWD vehicle. FWD is the wrong drive IMO for sportiness. Yes, you can make one handle well, but FWD has a lot of disadvantages. RWD is superior to FWD in terms of driving dynamics, acceleration, and handling.

See above



The S2K is by no means "slow", but it's powerband isn't great. Maybe I got used to the torque of my Mustang. The S2K I test drove handled very well, I will give it that. The shifter was amazing. It is a good drivers car. I wouldn't buy one because if you don't beat the piss out of it, it really is slow. It is also a very very small car.

All the vehicles we are discussing have good balance, therefore I am focusing on power.

We are, but I like a car that I don't have to rev up real high to be in the powerand and prefer one with torque. Different strokes for different folks...


The NSX really doesn't do anything exceptionally well for its price. I was actually talking about the NSX this weekend with a friend of mine(a pro driver). Basically paraphrasing, he stated that they are overrated as a track car. BMW's closest offering to the NSX would have been the Z8. The E46 M3 matches the NSX in pretty much every performance catagory, but has a back seat. The E36 M3 did the same thing in the 90's.

BMW's engineering capabilities are pretty amazing. I wish BMW would make available their design/engineering video they provide with new car purchases. Their engineers do little things like tune the accoustics of the windshield wiper or doors(make sure they make a certain thud). It's well know how BMW tests all of their cars on the Nurburgring. BMW also has a rich history in motorsports.

srika

you did not just compare the E36 M3 to the NSX.... or even the E46, for that matter... oh wait, you did.

folks, let's not forget, you can dump a crate motor in a soapbox and it will wipe any car's ass, anywhere... there is more to a car than how fast it goes...

Maximized

How do you honestly compare cars then? Looks....SUBJECTIVE , Interior....SUBJECTIVE etc etc. The interior of the NSX isn't extraordinary, the performance isn't extraordinary, neither is the handling. This is why Acura isn't selling very many of them. The NSX looked good in day, but IMO for the last 5+ years it looks really outdated.

srika

the NSX is an exotic-level car. there is almost nothing exotic about an M3, aside from the side-vents... I agree the NSX is dated by now. That is probably the reason it's not selling well.... of course, when did it ever "sell well"??? it's a limited niche car. everyone knows that. how many people do you think cross-shop an E36 M3 with an NSX? I'm guessing, zero. I won't be surprised if someone cross-shops the E46 with an NSX though, since a used NSX in good condition can be had for about the same price as a E46.

Too bad we don't get the Type-R. Watch any Best Motoring video and you will see the Type-R hanging - and then some - with the best exotics on the planet. It actually handles quite well. It is underpowered, I will give you that. And my fav NSX was the '97 - with the 3.2L motor and the grey 7-spoke wheels.. I absolutely did not like the changes in '02 - the front end is just terrible. If I was looking for an NSX right now, it would be '94-'97.

btw - the 3.2L NSX is still good for 12.9 @ 109..... not terribly fast by today's standards, but not slow. And that's NA, while most of the cars that are faster are FI.

MSZ

The BMW guys will tell you NSX is not anywhere close to be an exotic.

But hey, I am not a BMW fan.

SeCsTaC

Damn that car looks pretty subtle for an M car. Wonder how it'll look when it's done, or is that it?

cob3683

This thread has become

Back to the original topic: The next M3 will once again set the sport sedan benchmark.

srika

That means nothing to me. Have you driven with or driven an NSX? Try it, you'll know how it feels to drive an exotic - except with Honda quality and reliability.

MSZ

You did read the second line of my post right?

srika

oh... right. so you really do like NSX's, right?

SiGGy

I find the NSX about as exotic as a new C6 corvette. The corvette uses a lot of the same technology the NSX does. Hyrdoformed aluminum... lightweight materials... it's just not hand made in low numbers. Which is what's required to be an extoic. So by definition it's not...

I'm not a huge BMW fan either, but I do understand their philosphy. I honestly can't stand most of the BMW snobs I know. They buy their car because of the look it gives them... image means everything to the yuppie

I however can't ignore the time/engineering spent refining them...

Hopefully we get back on track to the M3. Which I find to be kinda ugly along with the new M5. Both are engineering marvels though.

gavriil

Arent those pics posted above?

gavriil

You forgot the main point. You are arguing different topics.

I would not buy an S2000 either and I hate high revving engines that are very small (as a daily driver). Apart from everone knowing very well what you are arguing about the S2K, that's not what were discussing when I brought the S2K as an example.

About FWD, we ALL know the pros and cos and have discussed the to death in this forum for years. You are missing the point by going and listing them again. The point is, LOOK what can be accomplished with FWD by a company which is basing its sales on the Civic and Accord and goes wild once every few years for a few seconds.

Also, you need to refresh your memoryabout what a...FWD Type R can do on the track. Do a search and then think of its price and then think of the year it was doing what it was doing.

Finally, I stated that the Z8 was the only thing that could come close to the NSX from BMW, a few pages back already. My point was different though.

gavriil

I dont know about everyone esle but for me, 12.9 is pretty damn fast even today with 400HP GTOs selling in the low 20Ks.

gavriil

There you go. This is only part of what I mean when I say that BMW is catering to a consumer that has different priorities than that of the Acura product.

If you understand and agree with what you wrote (and I am sure you do both), then you agree with one of my main pillars of my principle argument here.

gavriil

OK, I got to go and post some news becuase the two days I have been busy with either work or this thread, no one has posted shit here Asses!

srika

yes... oops didn't look back far enough..... plz delete...

I guess I also wanted to put some thread content back in......

srika

here are the main reasons I think the NSX is exotic.... low, sleek, wide - and fast enough.

yes, I think this looks more exotic than a C6:





subjective, of course.

Dan Martin

Even an 1990 NSX will turn more heads today than a vette.

cob3683

If thats the qualifications to be considered an exotic, then there are a ton of cars that I will call exotics from now on

Everything aside, the NSX is one of the best cars over the last 20 years. But I disagree with calling it an exotic. Exotics to me are cars like Lamborghini, Ferrari, Porsche (GT2, Carrera GT), Aston Martins, etc. that are rare, lots of $$$, and are absolutely beautiful to look at.

Does the NSX meet that criteria? Yes and no, but obviously this is subjective. In my opinion, the NSX was an exotic in 1990, but not in 2005. Today I would call it more of a classic. The exterior is gorgeous and it still drives like a dream. But the interior feels outdated and the car is in desperate need of a full makeover. (Kind of like what MB did with the R129 SL500)

srika

no - those are not generic qualifications whereby a car can be considered exotic if they meet those... those are the attributes that make ME feel the exoticness of the NSX - that is all.

Notice I didn't post a pic of a newer NSX. The 90's NSX is the exotic one..... not the newer one.

srika

just for fun, humour me. tell me some cars you would consider exotic, if I meant my list to be general... I'm curious to know.

cob3683

That part of my post was meant as a joke.

But my list of currently produced exotics would be:
Porsche GT2
Porshe Carrera GT
Mclaren SLR
Any Ferrari
Any Lamborghini
Any Bentley/Rolls Royce
Aston Martin DB9/Vanquish

Maximized

The NSX isn't an exotic. Examples of Exotics: Ferrari F430, Lambo Gallardo, etc. etc.

Maximized

Any company that pedals a FWD perfomance car really throws up a red flag in my book. The type R, while being one of the better performing FWD cars of its time, still is inferior to a RWD car. It still understeers at the limit and suffers from a front biased weight distribution. IMO, you can't build a serious performance car using FWD. If you want to go back for an example of a superior RWD BMW....E36 M3.

srika

ok, NSX hater.

srika

the NSX isn't AS exotic as a Ferrari... but it is exotic in its own right.. of course you're an NSX hater just like the rest... so arguing with you about this is like clapping with one hand......

cob3683

Read my first post and then you will see I am not an NSX hater.

gavriil

Still understeers at the limit you say. Pretty much all RWD cars understeer at the limit, including the M3.

You sound like the Europeans sound when they talk about the Corvette. Any Corvette. "Oh, it's got a pushrod engine, it uses leafsprings for suspension which is 1920s technology, it makes only 400HP from 6 liters, this and that, etc.".

If a car handles beautifully, it does not matter what wheels drive the car. Think outside the box, why so stuck on RWD?

Finally, you talk about the Type R like it's a car that was made for what it is (unlike the S2000 or NSX). The Type R is a special version of a mass produced car, which even you will admit that it presents some serious limitations to make a ture sports car from. ANd that is yet another argument to put in the pro bucket for Acura and Honda engineering.

Bottom line, I think for a true enthusiasts it should be easy to admit and accept a great sport car for what it is without looking at technical characteristics that in theory present limitations. Again, if a car handles, it handles. If a car is fast on the tracl, it's fast, no matter how many pushrods or leafsprings it uses.

Maximized

The NSX isn't an exotic. If it was, I guess add the C6 Z06, Viper, 996 Porsches, AMGs, and BMW M's. Heck, I can even make an arguement that my dads old A8 was an exotic. Before you laugh, check the NA production numbers.

srika

btw Road & Track did a review of the '93 Supra Turbo back when it came out... they compared it to the 512TR and 911 Turbo 3.6. One of the big questions that ensued in this article was, what makes a car exotic. Because they agreed that the Supra was definitely not exotic - compared to the Ferrari and Porsche. But why? Straight-line it was almost as fast... handling-wise it was better....

well well...... look at what I just found....... a good read.

page 1 . page 2 . page 3 . page 4 . page 5 . page 6 . page 7 . page 8

srika

this is an age-old argument. you're on one side, I'm on the other. obviously the NSX isn't, an F50. OBVIOUSLY. also obviously, it's not an A8. OBVIOUSLY.

Maximized

Yes, RWD does understeer at the limit, but you can provoke oversteer at the limit as well using the throttle. You and I both know that FWD has it's disadvantages, mainly pertaining to performance aspects. What Honda did with a production car was impressive, but so are a host of other cars. Bottom line is that you cannot build a true sport car using FWD, but that's my educated opinion. We will have to agree to disagree.

srika

plz tell me where you went to get such "educated opinions".... because wherever you went, I need to go there too, and well, get educated.

MSZ

Good find srika.