gavriil

Thank you. Though if you know me even a little and this goes for most members here, you'll know that we are all trying to present arguments and not just bash-and-go This is a quality forum

First, let me say that, even if Lexus, etc have copied the bangle-butt of the 7 series, by just doing so, one cannot claim that Lexus is now copying BMW. That's just one very minor part of the whole car that does not make distinguishable. The main reasons for the bangle-butt are:

1. It increases the total cubic area of the trunk which is a HUGE factor for EUrope due to that lack of SUVs there as compared to here and
2. It helps engineers improve the aerodynamics of the vehicle (witout the need of extra wings), which is another huge fator these days because it: a) decreases gas consumption (very important these days needless to say) and b) it lowers unwanted aerodynamic noises which is very important in that class. Oh and helps with top speed which is also important in Europe, more than here.

So the bungle-butt I see as a natural evolution which was bound to happen especially on those upper segments. It's just so happened for Bangle to be first to apply it.

Second, I disagree about the design following European trends. Actually on the contrary if anything, but only on a trend basis and on very limited extend. The new facelifted 7er's rear lights are totally Lexus-inspired, is one example.

Show me on American company following design trends from Europe.

You do hear European design praised in our country, but in the case of other products, not so much cars.

Overall, I dont think anyone is copying anyone else that much really. There are exceptions, but I dont see any company-wide trends.


That's because we are only finding out now about cars that are now 2-4 years old. This is one thing about reliability. It takes for ever to earn its reputation and it takes also quite some time to lose that reputation. Perceptions change slowly. Maybe faster towards the bad than the good, but it still takes a while.

Ah sorry but I am going to have to prove you wrong. Obviously you are not aware of the financial and (directly to) sales-related problems that a German luxury automaker by the name of Mercedes Benz has been going through lately. If you need me to find the thread/s and what I have posted about it here, let me know, it will take me a few minutes only. MB is a shit load of trouble sales-wise.

Same with Audi overall. They have head peaks and valleys during the past three years, but the valleys are way more substantial than the peaks.

Need we even talk about VW? Everyone knows that only Mitsubishi may be able to compare as being in a worse case than VW no matter who the automaker and I will exclude extremes like Isuzu, etc.


And if the Japanese catch up in building emotional cars, blah blah.

I mean come one. This is not an IF game. You make it sound like CONSISTENT relibility being easy to achieve. You have no idea how hard it is and how much money it takes (and money wont do it alone but it's necessary).


IF that is the case then why all the German companies I listed above are having sales issues? Why arent people buying? Why is Chrylser doing so well with such average, if not below average reliability and why are the Japanese selling their shirts? You know how many vehicles Toyota is selling, right? Same with Nissan?

So obviously sales trends are not backing up your above. Not at all.


True. The Brits also fall under this category.

But could it be coincidental that one has lost ALL of its automotive industry and the other is holding with its teeth on what's left? I doubt it but that's another discussion.

The rest, I will answer later. Movie time

heyitsme

The rear lights are a little uninspiring, but I think the body kit + wheels do a nice job of making this car more aggressive looking.

heyitsme

But did bangle really come up with the first raised trunk? I know the 2001 hyundai xg300 had it before the new 7-series was introduced, just forget who they copied it from.





"But with value and reliability being taken into consideration, it is a clear compromise right there." That makes no sense at all, just because BMW or any other German manufacturer charges a certain amount for a vehicle with a certain amount of features doesn't mean another company can't surpass them with equal refinement for less money. 2nd, when a company like BMW is on top for a long time and gains a certain amount of support from enthusiasts, there seems to be a lot of people who are unwilling to accept that the tables have turned when they finally do get beat with that emotional/performance/ whatever factor. BMWs luxury has gone down the toilet imo in recent years, the interiors look sterile. Perfect example is the M5 interior, its dead inside, no life at all.

Lastly heres an article about the TSX headlined "Japan beats Europe", scroll down for it, might find it interesting.

http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/show...o&pagenumber=1

gavriil

For the emotional enthusiast, no. But how big of a percent of the market is that?


The Tuareg and Phaeton are very recent examples of VW. VW is NOT the Tuareg and the Phaeton at all! VW is the Jetta and Golf. Oh and the Beetle

The Tuareg and Phaeton are examples of VW's, up to now unsuccesful, search to find who they want to be in the future.

Italian cars are not teutonically built, never were, yet they are THE most emotionally built cars, for decades now. Teutonic build has nothing to do with emotion. It has to do more with the conservative owner than the emotional owner.




What is going to happen in the next 12 years IMO is this:

The Japanese will become the most exciting cars and the American cars will become the most reliable cars. The Germans will fall somewhere in the middle with a lot of financial trouble coming. VW's has not see anything yet. But gov'ts once again will bail them out, as they always do in Europe.


I agree with the above.



Stop right there!

Heritage does not guarrantee you will be successful in anything in the future. Example? Alfa Romeo. Other example? Ferrari in the 80s. Other example? Porsche in the 80s and early 90s.

How are the Germans the benchmark suddenly? The benchmark in what exactly? Now you're talking like a fanatic of the German school of automotive creation. Like those BMW-lover-boys talk That aint good as you can tell.

Again, just because the Germans made the first car, it does not mean anything about the next 10-20 years.

OK so you're saying Lexus is benchmarking Audi in realibility.

Do you see how redicilously wrong that sounds? Wise up sir.


Globally respected force the Japanese are not? Obviously you live in some planet that I do not. Cos in my planet Toyota will be the second largest automotive company soon. On that planet, BMW is an average size company, VW has about 10 years worth of hard work ahead of itself, MB cant sell cars to save its life and Porsche is mini-company with no financial relevance. What is happening on your planet exactly?

A Ferrari. How many can buy it?

Though, how is that relevant with anything?


Ferrari has no respect for the consumer. They make cars for the...non-consumer The one that wants to show how much more they have than most of us

Dream cars have nothing to do with reality. I dont see any relevant point here at all.


Heritage is selling cars mostly to enthusiasts. And even that is a stretch. Reputation yes. And that is why Toyota is selling cars like hot cakes. Cos they have a good reputation. Audi on the other hand is very close at ruining that reputation soon, for example.

Sure. So?


Not really. REfinement, quality, reliability, enough agility for most people in that segment of product, enough speed for that segment, great all weather traction, great interior design and quality, great service, very low maintenance bills which means very few trips to the dealer which is preferable to more frequent trips to the dealer albeit free and many more.

And above all, a lower price.

THe TSX is in many ways a better deal than the 325i for most people.

Even I, a car enthusiast supposedly would go with the TSX every time. No doubt.

That's not a good logic because it does not represent reality.

1. The TSX is a formidable opponent to the 325i and anyone else and
2. Most people are not buying a car because of its badge. Otherwise, all enthusiasts would be driving in Boxsters and many more people would be buying the V6 Cayenne. It does not work like that. You need to understand the market better. I suggest you look at sales charts very carefully and very frequently.


Acuras being superior to the Germans in many cases?

Let's see: We already talked about them above but again:

1. Acuras are more reliable than the average German offering
2. They are more ergonomic
3. They require much less maintenance
4. In some cases quality of materials used is higher (interior and elsewhere)
5. They are less expensice EVERY TIME.
6. Many others on a car by car basis.


yes but how many are we out there compared to the overall market?

Who compared the two?

Of course. That's because they are all...German!

The comparison is German with Japanese, I was under the impression above.

That's right. Because they are consistently the most expensive in their class. You are making my point for me.


100% false. You know why? Because the market says so.

Let me be clear. THE MARKET DICTATES WHICH PRODUCT IS SUPERIOR. Not the mags, nor some test. Superiority is dictated only by one very specific force. The market!

So, the question then is, DOES THE MARKET PERCIEVE VALUE (OR PRICE) AS AN IMPORTANT FACTOR BEFORE BUYING? Absolutely they do! The bulk of the market actually buys with price being AT THE VERY TOP of their priorities. So price and value are probably the most important factor of determining if a product is superior.

You need to understand the dynamics of this industry, which are the same with msot in this country. In other words, you need to understand who calls the shots for whom.

There is not one more important force in the auto industry than the consumer. If the consumer does not buy, I dont care if you are selling F430s for free, you're going the way of Volvo, Saab, Aston, at best! Cos you could be going the way of the ones that we dont even remember or even taught their names today.

You know, Rolls used to make a great passionate, emotional product before going bankrupt.

Understand what's important in the industry before making assumptions about what makes a superior product. The Japanese are not fools. The one that wins in this games is the one THAT SELLS THE MOST CARS FOR A PROFIT! Everyone else can claim they have the Ultimate Driving Machine in their lineup as long as they can claim it.

SPUDMTN

Welp, I'm running short on time this time around, so let me informally step down here. Maybe my first reply came across as harsh or maybe my message/intent was not incredibly clear. I realize the structure was very loose and seemed to be just rambling, so again, I apologize.

However, let it be known that I am by no means a BMW/Mercedes/Audi fanboy (I am not a Gilboman, if you will). I am an automotive enthusiast. Check my history around these parts if you please. I respect each automaker for what it is and have really enjoyed this latest discussion. I don't have anything against Japanese automobiles. I wouldn't be on this forum if I did. Further, I wouldn't be on this forum if I didn't really like Japanese automobiles. They're great. But I suppose the message I was trying to state originally is that German vehicles have more soul. Definitely a controversial topic on this website, but I'll play the devil's advocate here. But that's just me. It's interesting to hear what other people think. Sure, maybe I got side-tracked along the way...but that's the original intent of my message and seems to me to be an explanation as to why people shell out more for these vehicles.

I just hope that nobody here has been offended if I have seemed to badmouth Acura or any other Japanese luxury manufacturer (it was not intended and definitely not my style.) I don't feel that I have badmouthed anyone here, but I would rather be safe than sorry. Gavriil, you bring up some good, detailed points to this discussion--kudos to you. I'll admit, you have me stumped on a few of the latest post (but not enough to change my mind ) Quite frankly, this latest reply is a little overwhelming If only we could discuss this face to face...the limitations of computers are sometimes quite frustrating and make online discussions quite the "art".

Anyway, happy motoring ya'll. Goodnight

-----

How about that M3?

Belzebutt

Me, a TSX excites me more than a 325i. I think the TSX looks just as distinguished or more when I see one drive by, and on the inside the TSX wins hands down. When it comes to paying for it I just didn't see the point of paying more for a 325i. The 330i I would take, but it costs too much for me.

As far as being the benchmark, BMW is it for performance but the Japanese are it for quality, which includes reliability.

And for a Passat being more emotional than an Accord... please. It's just a boring unreliable big sedan. I see the Accord as more performance oriented.

SiGGy

1st (this isn't for you gavriil) ALL CARS HAVE FLAWS, MY ACURA IS A POS LEMON, AND I KNOW BMW MAKES LEMONS TOO. So thats not part of this discussion. Here we are prentending all the cars are perfectly put together.

To sum up what i was saying...


BMW/Honda they are two different philosphys...

I refuse to use the name "Acura" because its not more than just a lame marketing name. Once they wise up and remove NON-luxury cars from the "Acura" brand name maybe, just maybe people will respect it as a luxury brand.

Honda=cheap and conservative. It shows in their engineering and design. Honda does not spend time BMW does on refining suspension, weight balance, driver feel. These are not major priorities for Honda. If they were, they would be making well balanced RWD for their sports line.

Sorry but BMW for years has had auto up and down windows, also controlled by the remote. 50/50 weight balance, better steering feel, better braking... I could keep going all day long. They basically are better in all things but price, sure you can buy the Honda for less $$, and it appears to have the same options.. but then compare...

heated seats... honda went cheap
auto down windows, honda went cheap
xenon lights, honda went cheap
electronic controls, honda went cheap
steering, honda went cheap (in terms of sports/feedback)
brakes, honda went cheap
transmission, honda went cheap (they didn't offer a manual for lots of years in their sporty coupe?!?!)

The only option I can think of that Honda holds over BMW is the navigation, it's top notch.

In reality design vs. design Honda doesn't hold a candle to BMW.

But yes, you can spend $10k less and get a Honda, but you also got $10k less of parts and engineering. Does this matter for jane and bob? it depends if they are a true car enthusiast. Any good driver will notice Acura's brake fade, front end heavy handling charectoristics, and lack of good steering feel.

I'm not comparing ones perception of Honda to BMW. I'm comparing engineering... Honda loses this comparison.

The new TL is a major improvement, it has basically caught up electrically. But it still has no soul for the driver. (i.e. a car that dances when you drive it)

gavriil

First, you have to stop caring about what others think so much. You dont have to apologize for your opinion and the possibility you might have offended someone just because they dont agree with you. Anyone offended by simply because someone else disagrees with you....tough for them.

Second, you're a smart guy, I have to admit, mostly because you are willing to learn about new possibilities and/or facts which could overthrow previous beliefs. That's rare, especially for someone in your age.

Not being a follower of a specific school of thought (in this case, German-car-lover, Japanese-car-lover, or even on the brand level, BMW-lover-boy, etc.) is what makes an automotive enthusiast a true enthusiast. If that is the case with you as you claim, good for you.

But when you say things like the Japanese will always look to the Germans as the benchmark (paraphrasing), you negate the above. Maybe not completely but you do to a certain extend.

True enthusiasts find beauty in every vehicle. For me, the Camry is an AMAZING vehicle from so many angles. Enthusiasts dont care about appliance-vehicles as they call them, but those are not true enthusiasts to me. The true enthusiast finds great beauty in the best seller car. It is SOOOO hard to make a best seller, they have no idea. The true enthusiast finds great beauty in the Geo Metro also.

Anyway, I think you're a great asset to this forum and I hope you stay around so we keep up talking and debating (with arguments) about this industry.

gavriil

Let me correct you.

Honda = competing in more inexpensive segments than the average German automaker and conservative in exterior design. Cheap means they make cars that are cheap = not well made.

I disagree. Honda spends more time than BMW in refinement (although you did not refer to that), as much time in suspension refinement, almost as much time in driver feel. Drive a Type R, which they aggressively offer in other countries; not in the USA.

Weight balance, see below.

You know that we have spent ages about the FWD vs RWD issue. But it's not as cut and dry as you present it.

So many things I can list here, but let me start by saying something that will sound daring, maybe even compeletely false to many here:

ACURA'S ENGINEERING ACHIEVEMENTS IN THE SPORT SEGMENT IS MORE IMPRESSIVE THAN BMW'S.

In other words, to me, Acura/Honda knows how to make a car, a sports car, better than BMW knows how. Why?

Three examples:

The Integra Type R is a FWD car and I dont have to tell you how balanced it is and how sporty it drives, right? Can BMW do that? With FWD? I dont think they can.

Second example, the S2000. Is the S2000 sportier than any Z4? Absolutely!

Third, the NSX in 1990/1 showed everyone what Honda knows/knew. What did BMW show in 1990? They could not even come close. Now let's take the same car, NSX that is to 15 years later with no major changes. What does BMW have to show today that surpasses the NSX in balanace and sporty feel. The Z8 is the only one that comes close, if it even does.

Think again. Honda's knowhow is not to be underestimated, they are amazing. They are amazing because they have showed sporadically that when they dont want to be conservative, they can go all-out and "show the world" how a sports car is made.

They are amazing because they have been experts in selling Civics and Accords. BMW LIVES TO SELL SPORT in their cars. They are a sports car company pretty much. A Civic-Accord maker, goes all out once every 10-15 years and beats the shit out of the sport-car maker? That to me is amazing, I dont know about you and others.

I am not going to even go to the long list of why FWD makes a lot of sense when you sell vehicles to the masses, you know most of them. Just think of them.

They sell sport! They better be better than the Civic-Accord maker sir. They are supposed to be that.

But when they compete with the 325 with the TSX and the sport maker loses for so many of us, that says something for the "cheap and conservative" automaker to use your words. Does it not to you?

They did not go cheap. THe heaters work great. They just did not put them on the passenger's back because of the sensors in there. Could they have done it with a higher budget? Sure. But that's not going cheap. Cheap means, the heaters take 20 minutes to get warm or dont get warm enough.

Oh and they did not charge extra for those heated seats that you need to pay extra with a package you might not want in the case of the Bavarian maker who is stealing your shirt when you're not looking.

Again, the windows go down, just the one of the passenger does not have auto down and both do not have auto up. That's lacking features, not going cheap. At least Honda says, I dont have that feature in 2000. But they do now with the RL and I dont know if the 2005-6 TLs have it. Do you know that there are BMWs that were selling with cranks for the windows in 2000 and beyond in Europe?

I talked about those but at least they are...free. They are included in the package and they are not hallogen lamps.

I dont know what you mean here. Why did they go cheap here?

They did not go cheap. TO make steering more accurate is not super expensive. They wanted to make a GT out of the CLS, not a sports coupe. It's a philosophy type of decision. Did they go cheap on the S2000? THat's 32K as you know. So...

This they did go cheap on. I have to admit. Brakes are not suffiecient in our car's case.

If you're saying they went cheap because the tranny broke, then maybe, although they recalled it and extended the warrantee. So they did not seem to be going cheap there.

Not offering a manual for the first two years is a matter of operational limitations. It's not that they went cheap to save money or they did it on purpose. You need a factory to build components as you know and it's not easy to add limited production components. How many people bought the CL with a manual, how many people buy manuals here? You know the answer.

Plus it's traditional and very normal for automakers to add a stick a year or two after the launch of a "sporty" offering. Lexus did it with the IS when it came out. Other example exist. MB gives you NO manual in pretty much anything. Are they going cheap?

Hehehe... Man...there is a lot more in your..."Honda" that is top notch when you consider the price. You forget the price. Always.

You dont get what you pay for in the case of BMW, nor Acura. You get A LOT MORE CAR FOR YOUR MONEY IN THE CASE OF ACURA AND FOR MOST A LOT LESS OF A CAR IN THE CASE OF BMW. For most people, that's the truth. The big problem with Acura is exterior design. If they looked better and still had the same hardware with the same price, a LOT more people would defect to ACura from BMW.


How many are those that buy cars on that premise?

You wonna talk engineerging?says the Honda enginner. Let's talk about engineering with the NSX in 1991. Even the S2000 in 2000.

That may be so, although I believe that we forget the fact the the TL has a cousin called the TL A-Spec. And if many of us drove it we would love the way it drives. Then think of the price and love it even more. As always, I may be wrong.

chungkopi

c230- what a worseless overpriced piece of sh!t
VW- piece of toilet

SPUDMTN- a german?

biker

There's still this weird thing in Europe to cut costs on some models - power windows for the front and hand cranks for the rear.

As far as engineering - it's very simple - BMW engineers are no better or worse than at Honda - they just engineer to a higher price point.

While this new M3 will be amazing - soon after it comes out it will have lots more competition than in the past. In 3 years 400 HP Supras and GT-Rs will be common along with existing GTO, Vette, CTS-V, RS4, AMG C class and whomever else wants to join the 400HP club.

gavriil

Exactly.

Saintor

I agree with you here. Heated seats on Honda are a joke. for those who don't have a clue, get in my BMw and in 20s you'll understand.

The one-touch switches are MAR-VE-LOUS.

And the Xenon on my cars are much sharper than any Acura.

More $$$ but more car.

heyitsme

I don't think the problem is what Acura offers in there cars, the problem is they don't offer more in any of there cars. Most luxury cars have quite a few options, German cars seem to make even basic luxury items optional with fake leatherettes etc.

If acura were to maintain their current offerings with a nice base model offering, but add excessive options to all models, I think it would do a lot for the brand. As it stands, they are definately taking the easy route, pretty much the slacker route for a luxury company, offering only one package w or w/out nav.

SiGGy

Gavrill, it's barlingly obvious you just want to argue. And are manifesting points to attempt to persuade me.

Reality is, Honda doesn't hold a candle to BMW.

Feel free to think whatever it is you like...

Honda= cheap and conservative. PERIOD.

Wheres the M5? M3? 6 series? 7 series? Acura equivalent...

anyway...

An example...

Sorry but when you slam on the brakes in a 3/5/7 series the car is 5x easier to control because it doesn't have a front heavy weight bais like amost ALL acuras to.

Anyway, I could go on all day here but your just going to respond. Reality is Acura can't make a car that competes with BMW because they would cost nearly the same.

biker

Even if that might be true is it a bad thing?

gavriil

That can be taken as a positive or a negative statement. What do you mean?

I am not attempting to persuade anyone, not just this time, but ever. That's not my goal at all and never was. You're 100% wrong here.

I dont know what that means.



Well, now that you let me, then I will.


To you.

Conservative yes, cheap no.




By the same token, where is BMW's Civic winner and Accord winner?

Also, where is BMW's NSX?

Take this the most positive way you can because that is how it's meant but it's just that the way you think of BMW and Honda is not multidimentional. It's simplistic. Again. Dont take this the wrong way.

As always, I coud be wrong. Everything I write, is always just my opinion, as is the case with all of us here, I would assume.

Hehehe....

Hey, just because you dont agree with me, that does not mean, I am responding just to argue with you, or anyone else. I took the time to respond to your points with arguments (at least I thought so), your reply was the above. You can do way better than that, come on now.

Now you're talking. Examples are the basis of arguments.

First, not all Acuras. Because you're always conveniently forgetting the NSX.

Why is the NSX off of everyone's book when they try to prove Acura as inferior? I dont understand that. It's like the NSX belongs to another Honda brand. It's funny but it proves exactly my point of everyone thinking that Acura engineering is not up to par with the Germans because they see the TSXs, RSXs, TLs and CLs out there and get carried away. They forget that Acura is here to make money and not to compete on "who's got the best engineering" game. That's for Ferrari to play and other exotic makers.

It's like Ford. They came out with the GT and they proved exactly the above point. They basically said to all non-believers, "hey, we can make a Ferrari beater for a fraction of the price, but that's not what makes Fortune 10 companies". Very few car enthusiasts keep in mind the "money factor" When it's the highest priority of everyone in this business.

Got carried away myself here, but I hope you know what I mean. Actually I know you do.

Ah? I am just going to respond? Isnt that what I am supposed to do? Respond?

What am I missing here?

That's not the case at all. Acura has chosen to

1. compete on different segments of the overall luxury segment and
2. they have proven that they perceive the consumer of the overall luxury segment differently.
3. As a point of secondary importance, Acura is not a global company. There are a lot of stipulations that affect the product above.

The above three items are very different than what you think the reason is for why Acura "cant" make a car that competes with BMW.

gavriil

To all:

Just because an automaker does not chose to compete in a certain segment of the market, that does not make the automaker inferior. It's very easy for most enthusiasts to get carried away and think the above. Don't make the mistake and do so. That is the only way, for example, to not be surprised by Huyndai to continue to make the strives we have seen them make and the ones coming ahead. Same for Infiniti.

The winner is the one that dominates a segment. The Camry for example is a winner offering. It does not matter that it does not stop like a BMW. It's still a winner.

SPUDMTN

Gavriil, it seems to me that you are a number man.

SpeedyV6

July 24, 2005
2006 BMW 3 Series: The Benchmark Settles Into Comfortable Middle Age
By NORMAN MAYERSOHN

CAR enthusiasts could bicker endlessly over which vehicle was the original sport utility - the Land Rover? the Willys wagon? the military jeep? - or raise their voices in the great debate over whether that pokey microbox from Volkswagen, which arrived long before Chrysler's Caravan and Voyager were gleams in their designer's eye, was actually the mother of all minivans.

But there is little argument about the Adam of sport sedans. Not that anyone in 1968 realized the significance of the BMW 2002 (or its predecessor, the 1600), cars whose advanced powertrains, tucked in unremarkable boxes, were known to goad otherwise responsible citizens into acting like adolescents on public roadways.

By the time the car evolved into the 130-horsepower 2002tii of 1972, a giant killer with tricks up its sleeve - like disc brakes and a fuel-injected overhead-cam engine - BMW was on its way to becoming, as its advertising tag line later boasted, "the ultimate driving machine."

The 2002 was succeeded by the 320i of 1977, offered in the United States only with two doors and a four-cylinder engine. More relevant than its role as a trailblazer, though, is the BMW 3 Series' continuing, and largely uncontested, status as the standard for the class, the benchmark against which all others are measured. Through the years, rivals have produced compact sport sedans that accelerated quicker, stopped shorter or performed better on a skid pad, but as a total package the BMW has never failed to equal, or conquer, all challengers.

After driving a 330i on back roads in western Pennsylvania and using one for a week of daily chores in New Jersey, I have no doubt that the 2006 model remains one of the best-performing compact sport sedans, though it may have to share the podium with several worthy competitors.

The line's position of leadership will carry over when it grows to include station wagon and all-wheel-drive versions (this fall), to be followed by coupes (next summer), convertibles (late 2006) and eventually (in 2007) the almighty high-performance M3.

Long a symbol of achievement for the young and aspiring, the 3's have been given a thorough overhaul, their first since 1999, with new styling, engines and suspensions. The car is slightly bigger all over, though the package is still tidy and efficient. The crisply tailored interior is attractive in an all-business sort of way.

The line's genetic markers have not changed: the 3 Series is still built on a rear-wheel-drive baseline and it still uses in-line six-cylinder engines. (Other markets get four-cylinder versions, too.) The weight distribution remains within a fraction of 50-50, front to rear, for almost perfect balance.

What has changed, though, is the level of comfort and isolation, now raised so much that the car's character is considerably different from that of its predecessors, despite the mechanical similarities.

There is much at stake in designing a new 3 Series: the line accounts for more than 40 percent of BMW's global sales, over 100,000 a year in the United States alone. Even as the company's entry model here - at least for now - it is not cheap. A 325i sedan starts at $30,995 and the 330i opens at $36,995; the one I tested ran $46,115 with options like a navigation system, active steering and both the premium and sport packages. As of Sept. 1, prices rise $300 for the 330i and $600 for the 325i.

Above all, a BMW, especially a 3 Series, is supposed to be a driver's car, so any detailed analysis of features and standard equipment is beside the point. Rest assured that the car can be ordered with a full complement of luxury touches, including wood trim, but its Bavarian engineers remain well behind the curve in dealing with conveniences like cup holders. If that's a big problem, take a look at an Acura.

The 3 Series benefits from features that trickled down from more expensive BMW's. Some of these really are benefits, like the double-pivot front suspension, Valvetronic engine controls and side-protection air bags, while others are of less apparent advantage: when ordered with the $2,000 navigation unit, the iDrive control system is fitted, too.

The screen for the navigation map and iDrive menus sits high on the dashboard, to the right of the gauges under a second eyebrow. The computer interface has been simplified, and by using the remaining separate switches or the voice-activated controls, iDrive can be ignored most of the time.

A lot of the appeal to enthusiasts of the 330i, like that of other BMW's, lies in its superb engine. Defying the usual name protocols, both the 325i and 330i use the same basic 3-liter 6, tuned to 255 horspower in the 330i (an improvement of 30 over the previous model, though the new car is essentially no quicker) and 215 horsepower in the beginner version.

Each will coax 20 miles from a gallon of gas in the city and 30 on the highway in a manual-shift car; the manual 330i races from 0 to 60 miles an hour in 6.1 seconds (6.3 with the automatic); the 325i does it in 6.7 or 7.2 seconds, depending on transmission. A six-speed stick shift is standard and a six-speed automatic is $1,275 extra.

The inherently smooth-running in-line 6 is worth preserving, despite the challenges of making the long and narrow engine fit under the hood. BMW proved its commitment to this layout - one abandoned by most automakers - by engineering an entirely new power plant for this car. A lightweight assembly of magnesium and aluminum, the engine uses a sophisticated variable valve lift system to replace the function of a conventional throttle.

All 3 Series sedans come with run-flat tires, which are often harsh-riding and noisy because of their stiff sidewalls. Yet by using run-flats to tune the suspension, BMW managed to give the car a quiet, compliant ride despite the tires.

For those puzzled by BMW's recent designs, the best part of the new 3 is that it does not borrow the styling tics of the larger 5 and 7 Series sedans, which were mocked for their odd flourishes and lack of restraint - but went on to sell quite smartly, thank you.

Whether styling is a top priority depends on the customer, but there is little about this design that will wave anyone away. Still, it seems to be trying awfully hard, given the multiple character lines on its sides, the suggestion of a grille that dips far below the front bumper and a rear end that is both generic and fussy. Gone is the elegant simplicity of prior models, with the purposeful lines typical of many German products, from coffee grinders to cameras.

My real objection is that the gimmickry was not necessary. BMW's have never had the catchiest styling, yet have been desirable for their competence, always discreetly communicated without garish touches.

Even so, I am willing to give it some space. BMW overhauls models every seven years or so, meaning this one will be in showrooms until 2013. Let's take another look in 2010.

By then, with luck, annoyances like quirky turn signals with a mind of their own, or a starter button that offers no obvious advantage over a conventional ignition key, will have been reconsidered.

Leading-edge technology has always figured into the BMW way of building cars, and the 3 Series gets a full helping.

The brakes, for instance, now have electronic controls to compensate for fade in hard use; a standby mode that poises the brakes to engage instantly if a sudden stop seems likely; a self-drying function to maintain full braking in the rain; and a "soft stop" feature that compensates for jerky drivers. Most useful is the "start-off assistant," which keeps the car from rolling back when starting on a hill.

This overachieving brake system reflects the high-tech path BMW has taken in recent years, and it demonstrates how much these sport sedans have evolved over four decades. No longer a car solely for enthusiasts, the 3's broad portfolio of abilities and accommodations attracts many more buyers than a purist's machine ever could. As my own driving confirmed - both on country roads and a few laps on a racetrack - the new 3 has high limits, and they can be reached without sacrificing comfort.

Measures of acceleration or cornering force do not tell the whole story, especially for a sport sedan. No doubt the brainy brakes will do a much better job than my foot ever could, and options like active steering, which changes the steering ratios according to conditions, make for a safer, even faster, car. But such innovations tend to get between the driver and the road, making the 3 feel just a bit less connected to both the pavement and the brain.

Perhaps the 3 Series has outgrown me. What was once a willing accomplice for back-road rowdiness seems all grown up. It no longer whispers, "Let's go out and risk a moving violation." It is now a perfectly pleasant, responsible companion.

Whether the fifth-generation 3 Series continues to set the class standard depends on how one weights the importance of its attributes. If track performance tops the list, it will do just fine. If value is the criteria, it may not match the Infiniti G35 or the Lexus IS 350, which goes on sale in October. And while no one can accuse the new 3 Series of not being fun to drive, it may no longer hold the clear edge that it once did.

INSIDE TRACK: In this class, the most likely to succeed.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/24/au...gewanted=print

srika

Honda has been making F1 cars/engines since 1964 - link - over 40 years. By comparison, BMW has been involved with F1 for about 5 years. Same goes for Mercedes. The number of various motorsports Honda is involved with is staggering, and speaks more about their engineering and technical prowess than Accord sales do (or should). F1, Moto GP, AMA, IRL, CART, Speed GT, Motocross, powerboats, off-road, the list goes on and on. I would believe that Honda has the greatest reach in the motorsports world, of any manufacturer in the world.

Not to mention, they are highly successful at these various endeavors. It's one thing to have your feet wet in anything and everything you can, but it's another thing to be successful in all those things. For instance, Nicky Hayden won on Honda at the recent Moto GP @ Laguna Seca.

Take a look at the results for the Indy 500 this year - out of the top 10, 7 are Honda, including the top 4:
http://www.hondanews.com/CatID4002?m...74557&mime=asc

Here's some links if you wanna read more:

Moto GP - http://world.honda.com/WGP/
F1 - http://www.barhondaf1.com/lang_select.php
IRL - http://racing.honda.com/
AMA, Motocross, etc - http://www.hondaredriders.com/landing.asp?bhcp=1
Honda Racing - http://www.honda-racing.co.uk/intera...on/comp058.asp

I really don't understand why Honda/Acura is being compared to BMW here - they are different companies set out to do different things for different markets. They cannot be all things to all people.

As mentioned earlier, BMW has no cars that are comparable to the NSX, S2000, and Type-R series. These are Honda cars that push the engineering level and really show what they are capable of. The M models are decidedly "sport" oriented but please - no true sports car weighs 3900 lbs - that's a "Sports GT" car. The new M5 and M6 are very fast indeed - but not true "sports cars" in any sense.

Honda is one hell of a well-rounded company.

and this is one hell of a thread-jack..

darrinb

siggy dont forget

engine/exhaust note goes to the j32a2

the e46 m3 sounds like a weed wacker on its lasts breath

SiGGy

ROFL,

BMW has the mini, BMW has ALSO sold MANY small economy cars in the past. If they hadn't BMW would no longer be in existance. They were pulled out of a financial slump because they produces a compact vehicle.

And now they make the mini

The NSX, ROFL. Talk about outdated... $90? 200 a year sold,? LOL

Well, nissan and toyota have competed in these other segments. What's acura's excuse? I see them and a hyundai/kia type dealer now.

Acura only makes ONE luxury car, that's the RL. CL/TL/TSX/RSX are not luxury cars. However some of them could be called near luxury.

Acura is a marketing name for the snobby US buyers. Common gavrill. Your buying a Honda not an Acura. The name serves no other purpose but to appease the US public.

"As a point of secondary importance, Acura is not a global company. There are a lot of stipulations that affect the product above."

Common, no they don't. People say isn't you car just a Honda? LOTS of people say it... it's almost an insult. Do people think the same way about infinity or lexus? NO, why because they don't sell FWD kid racer cars in their premium line.

Gavriil, this is EXACTLY like our GM conversations of the past. You were "rah rah rah" Bob Luts is here ALL WILL BE WELL. What did a lot of us say to you then... and you turned out to be wrong.

Anyway, i don't have the time nor will to respond to all of your thread. Thanks for the replys though, I always do enjoy reading them.

SiGGy

I agree there, but the high-revvy thing is BMW's forte for the M3.

SiGGy

That's nice for the racing sector. Has 0 to do with the FWD RSX, or CL/TL/RL.

Agreed, most people don't care about BMW refinement, but those who do realize the superiority to Acura. Acura builds to save $$, BMW builds to please the people who know the difference. (i.e. suspenion, weight balance, brakes)

Most of the reason the vehciles are getting heavier is becase of safety compliances. Cost/weight I bet is a huge technology hurdle.

What about the last M roadster which completely schools the S2000.

Honda to me is more of a half-moon, they don't compete in the high end market. Just the middle ground, and do it with FWD technology. And that was the exact point I was making... however it has digresed. They are too conservative to make a M3 competitor, or M5, or 7 series, 6 series. They are also to conservative to realize maybe they should use RWD occasionally. I guess they don't realize how successful Lexus is.

SiGGy

Yup, just remember Nissan (infinity) and Toyota (Lexus) have all made sport sedans and sports cars to compete. Compete with who? BMW, but of course listening to gavriil BMW isn't a market leader. But why would they have competition?

Honda/Acura has fallen asleep at the wheel for the high-end market. Sorry but the Legend was the last one so far that competed. ZZZzzzZZZZzzzz

Sorry, but as I've said. And will say one last time. People buy BMW's because there IS a major design difference between and Acura and a BMW. You cannot compare the two, one is in a league by itself (BMW)

darrinb

^^^

you are right sig, but its not just acura that is behind bmw, if you are a TRUE car enthusiast and love that connected to the road feeling no benz, infinti, acura, no way in hell a boring lexus, or even most audis are gonna fill that need

sure the above brands might have some edges over bmw(straight line performance of a benz, awd of an audi, smoothness/interior of a lexus), but bmw goes after its customers by offering a drivers car that is well balanced in all areas. i dont see any of the competitors getting close to them anytime soon.

Maximized

Wow this thread went off the deep end. IMO Honda doesn't hold a candle to BMW's engineering capabilities. Drive a BMW hard and you will know why I state this. I drove a 996 TT this weekend and can easily feel why it's superior to a Z06. You don't get that sort of direct feel in any Honda I have driven and that's purely because of engineering and know how. Honda in general builds cookie cutter cars.

gavriil

I am declaring a winner using the criteria that automakers and the market/s declare winners. I simply follow reality.

gavriil

Are you presenting the MINI as an answer to Honda's Civic? If yes, you must not know the numbers well. You need to find out how many Civics Honda sells around the world and compare that number to the Civic. I should be ROFL when I see your face looking at the difference


What are those small economy cars sir? Can you name, one?

Are we talking about the same company?


Yes they do. And?

Ah...it sounds like you dont want to admit things you know about now.

Even so, where is BMW's outdated NSX? Or even, where is BMW's NSX competitor that can even be a match to the current outdated NSX?

How is it relevant with anything that they are selling 200 a year. You were talking about Acura being cheap and where is Acura's 6 series fighter, M3 fighter, etc. You were saying Acura is conservative. And I challenged BMW with the 15 year old NSX. Where is BMW's answer? To this day...let alone 1990.

Ah so obviously when Honda wants to go a little crazy and let lose, they kick some serious ass, dont they?

Come on Siggy, admit it sir. You know I bash Honda/Acura when it's deserved.

Their excuse is that they chose not to compete there. Yet.

This is the distinction I want you and others to see. THat by just not competing or competing differently that does not mean they are inferior. There is a vast difference between the two.

See this is also part of the above main point of mine. When I say Acura is perceiving the market differently than other automakers, this what I mean.

Acura, thinks of the sport sedan (TL) customer as someone who:

1. Puts value at the top of their priority
2. Will not take the car to the track
3. Wants something that feels sporty but it's also FWD or AWD to avoid traction issues
4. Does not mind FWD as long as the car does not feel like a boat
5. Etc.

What is wrong with that? That's called, they chose to comete differently, not they are cheap.




Am I buying a HOnda when an Acura like I am buying a Toyota when I am buying a Lexus? A Ford when buying a Lincoln/Mercury? A VW when an Audi? Are we really going to get in that debate? This is even more basic than FWD vs RWD. We have exhausted it.

If BMW had a mainstream brand, you'd be saying the same for them? Now that the 1 series and the 3 series share so much, are we buying an inferior product when we buy a 3 series?


Wo. Wait. First let me remind you of one thing and inform you of another.

1. Infiniti, like Acura, does not exist outside NA (there are a small number of small countried they market to, but there is no Infiniti in Europe and other big markets).

Same for Lexus up to a few months ago. Although they were selling to Europe for the past few years, it was in very limited form. Only now Lexus is getting serious about the global market.

2. Let me inform, as someone who lived in Europe for 22 years and was very close to the automotive world, that Honda has a very good reputation in Europe. Meaning the reputation of the Accord in Europe is close to that of a 3-Series there. They compare Honda vehicles with vehicles we consider luxury here. For many reasons.

So when you say, I drive a TSX, even if that means it's 80% a Euro-Spec Honda Accord (even if one won that argument), that's not necessarily a bad thing. For Europe. Luxury cars in Europe are considered the larger offerings from certain makers, like Audi, BMW, Mercedes, etc.

So, if Honda made larger cars, in Europe, they could easily be compared directly to 100% luxury offerings from the likes of BMW and MB. Like the Legend. It can easily be compered to the 5 series in Europe. And it's a HOnda. Would you ever be comparing a HOnda with a BMW or MB?

Think about what all that means.

First, how is this relevant with the Acura points exactly?

Second, Bob Lutz has put together one car up to now for GM. OK one and a half. The Solstice and the GTO. Bub Lutz's cars will be with us during the next generation GM cars.

I am glad you enjoy them. Cos for a moment there, I thought you were bothered by them

srika

I was speaking from a technical/engineering standpoint.

good call on the M Roadster... not sure why that ONE escaped me

gavriil

It' not that simple. Lessons learned from racing are applied to production cars in the case of Honda/Acura. Not as much as it could have the potential to apply due to the limited production of hard-core product, but it does.

One cant make a FWD car handle like the Integra Type R in 1997 without knowledge from racing.

Again, you're conveniently forgetting the NSX, the S2000 and the Type R. The last two are very affordable as you know.

Acura, does not build to save dollars. They build a product for a different type of customer than the BMW customer.

True, but still, that does not make the M5, M6, even the M3, sports cars. The S2000 is a sports car.

For 12K more? And that's 2000 money.

See this is another thing I dont understand. And it's done also by journalists:

Why compare the S2000 with the M Roadster (let's say it existed today) just because they are physically similar, but leave the price out completely?

Why not compare the S2000 with a Z4 2.5L? Which Z4 will still be more expensive by the way. What would happen if the Z4 2.5L (or even Z3 2.3 when it was available, because the S2000 was pretty much the same car then), were compared to the S2000? Base it on the price and physical similarities, not just the latter. Would BMW look like a bunch of fools or what?

PLUS! Hey, we are comparing a HONDA with a BMW ladies and gents. Not even an Acura, which btw for many of you, even Acura is not a true luxry automaker.

Do you see what I mean?

Why not compare, the TL with a 35K 3er. The 325.

The RL with a 42K (cos that's what they sell for at the dealers'), BMW 5er. Would that even be the 525i? Cos even that can option out for more than 42K. We have to go to Europe and get a 520i here in order to match the price. Maybe the same for the Z4 2.5L, we have to go to Europe and get a Z4 2.0 to match the S2000's price.

I mean, why do we always have to see this issue from this perspective:

Acura cant match the BMW product when comparing physical characteristics of a product

and not from this perspective

Taking into consideration price and physical character of the product, BMW is completely losing every comparo WHERE ACURA/HONDA COMPETE.

Why? Is it because what I claimed before is happening? That enthusiasts fall into the trap of perceiving a maker which choses to compete at higher points in the various segments, as a superior maker to makers that chose not to? And those are perceived as inferior?

gavriil

BMW is certainly a leader at certain segments. I never said the opposite. BMW sells a very large number of 3 series cars around the world and eventually the 1 and 2 series will do the same. That's what Lexus and Infiniti are after.

What I tried to remind you before, in the appropriate context, which you did not insert in the above claim that I supposdely made, was that Honda deserves huge Kudos for the success of the Civic and Accord, the CRV and the Pilot, although these might not be offerings that turn on the average enthusiast.

I said, I perceive the Camry as an amzing vehicle just because it's a best seller in such a lucrative segment.

I also respect the 3er and BMW of course for having such great success with it. On the other hand, they could not touch the RX300/330 with their X offerings. Just because the X products are sportier that does not mean the RX should not get the respect it deserves.


Exactly. You cannot compare the two. Because when you compare them FAIRLY you end up with two situations:

1. When price and product characteristics are taken into consideration, BMW loses EVERY TIME.

2. You end up with BMW product that has no match on the Acura side because Acura, simply does not compete there.

gavriil

See this is what I am talking about.

Acura is perceived as "being behind BMW" because they dont make the M3s and M5s of the BMW-world.

I mean seriously. If you think COMPLETELY UNBIASED for just one minute and take EVERYTHING into account, how is that a fair statement?

Let's blame a doctor who does not know shit about flying an F16. That's exacly what you're saying here.

The doctor was never trained to be a pilot, is what I am saying. Yet it does not compute.

gavriil

1. I am guessing you mean the C5 Z06.

2. Same argument as I gave to Siggy about Honda/Acura "going sporty" only in few, very limited, certain occasions. With the Type R, S2000, NSX products and some other products in Europe we dont see here that are also exciting. Honda is a Chevy/VW type of company. Builds cars for the masses to make money first and sometimes shows what they learned from racing around the world. BMW has had a very different target market which lately is changing to become a little more mainstream with their 1er cars and what we will see next from them (crossovers, etc.).

srika

Honda builds its racing technology and knowledge into its production vehicles, to greater and lesser degrees... hell, even VTEC... was a race-inspired technology... and look at how many companies have some form of VTEC now...

Maximized

1. Yes, C5 Z06. I haven't driven the C6 Z06, but hope to in the future. The 997 TT should be a nice match for the C6 Z06.

2. The type R is a FWD car, which isn't very exciting IMO. The S2K is a nimble car, but again it's certainly not very fast. The 8K+ redline is exciting for a while, but builds off when you drive the car around town. The NSX is a nice car, but it's nothing special. BMW really only goes truely sporty in it's M models. The standard cars are usually a comprimise of luxury and handling. Engineering wise IMO BMW is a superior company.

chungkopi

s2000>z4 i'll take s2000 over z4 anyday. 15K cheaper too.

NSX= made in 15 freakin years ago!!!! i'll take NSX over any bimmers made in 1990.

Maximized

I'd take an Z4 3.0 manual over a S2K anyday. The S2K doesn't do it for me and is too small for my frame.

That's poor planning of their product life cycle on Honda's part. They shouldn't have left an overpriced and underperforming product on the market for so long.

gavriil

But have you driven it to see how fun it is. Because everyone who has, even BMW-lover-journalists were left stunned by what can be accomplished in that price range by a company who knows what they're doing.

Also, in Europe, were FWD is a lot more widely accepted and respected than here, the Type R had an undisputable reputation as one of the sportiest offerings, this side of the exotic segment.


Hehehe... Man! Isnt it nice to call on the "slow" argument on others but BMW.

It's not ver fast. The S2000. For 32K. Especially in 2001 when 6.0 flat for the 60 was like what 5.3 is today. But still, it's interesting when the 2.5L equipped BMWs get no bashing for speed, yet the 2.0L S2000 is finger-pointed.

Whatever happened to the BMW and Porsche-like way of thinking of: "it's not about speed, it's about balance", or the other favorite "a car's engine has to be slower than its chassis and brakes"?

Come on, Max

I thought we were talking Sports Cars here


Oh that's the best one of all.

The NSX is nothing special. That one I will leave alone, except ask you again, where is BMW's NSX? Where was it in 1991, where was it in 2000, where is it now?

So following your logic, should I substitute accordingly and say:

"BMW does not make anything special"?

IMO you are 100% wrong.