srika

umm..... does M3 news go in here?

source: supercars.net

http://www.supercars.net/pitlane/pics/1351021d.jpg

Dan Martin

Cool. Something tells me this M3 will renew my faith in BMW.

gavriil

Nice find Srika!

bigman

What's fixed, my TL that had 4 trannies supposedly fixed, or my cousins 05 that has had 2 replaced?

goldmemberer

Looks like the coupe in white may be my next car, BUT ONLY IF THEY FIX THAT AMORPHOUS ASS. And I would hate to buy it new. Would feel like BMW NA bent me over and had their way with me. Maybe a lease? Pah.

Seems very promising, however. The high redline and SMG-II would be great fun. Would also have to debate getting a slower stick car vs. faster quasi-auto ("but it's still a manual").

Shawn S

Yea….Right up until you see the 60,000 dollar BASE PRICE they want for one.
And in typical BMW fashion, things like sunroof, xenon’s, heated seats and leather will cost you even more.

gavriil

Dan Martin

LOL Sounds like someone is a little bitter.

Nobody said the M3 is cheap and undoubtedly there are cars that are a much better value. <cough>C6<cough>
BMW and MB have long been known to charge a lot for options. They're the Ruth's Chris of auto manufacturers.

With the current M3 going for $48K base, I imagine the new one will be in the low 50's.

Shawn S

No way. Look what a base 8-Cyl 645 Coupe sells for.
Nearly 70-Grand without options.
I bet the M3 will be priced just under this.

We’ll compare notes in a few months and see who is closer.

Dan Martin

Why would you compare it to the 645?
I never thought of the two competing against eachother. The 645 is a much much bigger car. The TSX is bigger in every dimension than the 3 series, and the TSX isn't exactly big.

I can't see the move from V6 to V8 adding $22,000.

Shawn S

I know its one class up, but the new 3-Series isn’t really THAT much smaller then the current 5-Series.
Comparing the 6 and the M3, both are 2-door V8 powered coupes and the M3 will actually be more powerful if the rumored 400HP hold true.

Like I said, too early to speculate, but I bet I’m closer then you.

Shawn S

Current base for the M3 is 47K.
I said 60K so that’s only 13K which I can see happening going from an I6 to a V8 and other goodies.

srika

there definitely is a price to pay to drive a BMW V8... don't matter what car it is. I'm with Shawn S in this battle.

Dan Martin

Well it doesn't matter to me who wins because unless it's under $30k I won't be buying one.

Shawn S

I think you should be able to buy a 2007 M3 for 30,000









In the year 2020

srika

it matters, lol

srika

oh yea... can you say mini-M5???

SiGGy

VS. the 1/2 moon roof on our CL, almost useless

1/2 heated seats (saving $$ not heating the lower back on the passenger) plus only 2 settings, torch mode, and ass burner not to mention to auto switch mode like BMW has. HIGH for 5m then auto switches to user setting.

cheaper xenons in the CL too. no auto leveling, projectors.. i could keep going

Sure you get all the "goodies" but they aren't anywhere near top class. Nor anything to brag about besides to say we have them.

Honda adds all the options but the cost is quality/function. Marketing sells the Honda (and how cheap it is ) Refinement/design/engineering sells the M3. Two totally different worlds... you don't see the honda engineer worrying about where to place the battery to offset the weight of the driver. He's too busy trying to find the cheapest battery that'll work.

and yes, vegetables come ala carte at the best resturants too shawn ....

Sometimes people want something built just for them. Not an off the shelf all in wonder cheaper model.

Not to mention Honda could only dream of making a car that competes with the M3. They are too conservative and cheap to attempt it. And don't have the marketing smarts to do it correctly anyway. Look at Acura, they put the kids car the RSX in the same lineup with their luxury models.

The only reason I use honda as an example is because it seems Nissan/Toyota are not asleep at the wheel in the performance sector. Not to mention marketing... All the performance luxury cars have options...

heyitsme

illinigolfer

I might have missed it but what is the expected price of the 335? It really looks like BMW has done a great job with this.

iNteGraz92

nice comparison
bottom line is that german cars are overpriced for what you pay. no need to get all cranky.

AcuraGT-3

Enough with the value crap. Clearly with Acura, you GET what you PAY for. An inferior product. The Germans are a little overpriced but they do COMMAND that premium. Acura on the other hand, commands cheap, 27k TSXs.

How can u compare? Acura =27-90k with the 50k and 90k vehicle selling like crap and the cheaper models selling well.
Germans=27k-170k with the CL/S 65. You CANNOT seriously compare the 2.

Crazy Bimmer

Siggy for President

Crazy Bimmer

My guess that it will take over the current pricing of the E46 M3 and the new M3 will be bumped up in price to maybe base of 55k.

Shawn S

I don’t know where all that came from.
I wasn’t comparing the new M3 to the CL-S.
That would be quite ridiculous.

I was just saying that it’s gonna be expensive out of the gate and even more if you want all the bells & whistles.

srika

umm... yeah. tell that to my mom, who has had the privilege of driving her X5 to the BMW dealer because she can't unlock the doors from the inside to GET OUT OF IT - the privilege of also asking them to replace the rear window wiper, since it "fell off".

only a few horror stories I've heard over the past years of deteriorating German build quality. a friend had an '03 SL500 that he got rid of just because of the lack of build quality and refinement... Generally speaking, German cars were built like tanks in the 80's. They no longer are.

would I refuse this new M3, or any M3 for that matter, if it were offered to me? no.

Crazy Bimmer

Damn American made X5!

I wanted an M-coupe so bad till i drove a friends. You def can tell where a car is made when you drive it.

SPUDMTN

In advance, I apologize for the lack of structure or flow that is completely uncharacteristic of me...I simply have taken and subject and am running with it...

-----

I know that I'm chiming in here out of no where, but I feel your last statement kind of shows why the Germans are still doing so well. Yes, the Germans have some quality niggles out there right now, but the problem has been identified. Quality wise, the W126, W124, and W140 Mercedes-Benz models seem to be the last vehicles that were the total German package--high-quality, reliable, and dependable vehicles. The German automakers have been very public about letting everyone know that they are getting back on track.

But anyway...your last statement makes a good summary because the pure driving experience, look, and feel of a German automobile is the best out there. The products are so amazing, so emotional, that the average customer (and auto enthusiast) will gladly overlook the quality niggles. So what if the vehicle has to be in the shop every now and then? The engine sounds so good. The vehicle handles curves so well. The seats adjust 20 ways and the bolsters adjust as I take corners. And let's face it--the products look drop-dead gorgeous.

The Germans, in particular, have made the automobile a very emotional piece of machinery. It seems that this is the hardest thing for other auto makers to duplicate. Does an Acura TSX pull at your heart the same way an Audi A4, BMW 325i, or Mercedes-Benz C230 does? Does a Honda Accord do the same thing for you that a Volkswagen Passat does? Emotionally, the European vehicles seem to make a stronger connection. It's the way they are built. It's that solid teutonic feel that no-one can duplicate. It's the sensual looks. It's the way that the dash feels...the way the leather smells...the way everything feels, smells, tastes, and sounds. It's the grip of the drive. The way the transmission seemlessly shifts without you even knowing. The purr of the V8. The throaty startup and sound of the engine gloriously releasing its baritone song. The Germans know how to make FINE automobiles...

...though they may not be incredibly reliable. But why fix something that's not broken? Seems like a paradox, eh? But if sales are going strong and the customer keeps returning (or new customers keep coming in) why change how you do business? Not necessarily the noble thing to do, but that's business. Time after time, the Germans are praised by the automotive press and the entire driving public, for being the best driving vehicles out there. And it's undeniable. They're leaders in style in technology as well. Always have been, always will. Safety for the Germans is number one. Innovation is a way of life. Always has been, always will. And try as the Japanese may, they will never have the heritage that the Germans have. Sure, they are starting to build some magnificent cars, but they will always been left in the shadow of the Germans.

ANYWAY, I guess what I am trying to say is that we all have seemed to find a compromise in our Japanese vehicles. What do I mean? Well, Acuras offer great performance, luxury, and technology. Are they on par with the Germans? That is debatable, but for the most part I would say not quite. Everything is good about these cars, but the total package is not as exceptional as say, an Audi, BMW, or Mercedes. But what we have is practical and sensible in that our vehicles are bullet-proof--they are rarely in the shop for issues and are more of a smart buy, in that they offer far more equipment than the Germans for less money. Where the Germans take a money-no-object approach, and where they take into account every single detail and over-engineer vehicles, the Japanese take a more straight-forward approach.

What I'm getting at is, if you were given the choice between an Acura or a BMW (Audi, Mercedes, etc...) which would you choose, not considering money or reliability? Which has a more emotional appeal? Which provides for a purer driving experience? Am I making any sense? I love Acura products (I wouldn't be on here if it was otherwise) but there is something about German vehicles that I cannot get enough of...

...let the flaming begin...

Crazy Bimmer

^ Smartest 19 year old i seen here


(yes i know my posts are worthless )

Time For Sleeep

I actually do feel that way about my CL-S

minus the v8 purr part.

And you an't be serious about the Benz C230...

illinigolfer

Thanks

SiGGy

Oh I agree, I was just rattling your chains I did like your translation in the quote hehe

What I was trying to get at is ALL luxury/sports cars are $$ and ala carte. It just comes with the territory.

Last M3 loaded was $60k for convertible and near $60 for non vert.

srika

no, they are worthful.

I guess the message is that German cars have soul?

biker

Once you leave the basic transportation function of a car behind and get emotional about the subject - you could go ga-ga over any car.

srika

it's subjective, isn't it...

gavriil

Wo! Wait. I agreed up to a point with the above but there are certainly a number of key items above that in my opinion are mostly false.

First of, you keep saying Honda. Do you mean Acura? Since the member you replied to was referring to our CL/S.

Marketing does not sell the Honda/Acura. If anything, BMW's marketing helps BMW vehicles more than Honda's marketing helps Acura, in my opinion.

Cheaper Xenons no auto leveling projectors. Etc. I dont think that Acura's are not optioned well, especially when you think of what you're paying. Yes, there are xenons and then there are xenons, I know this from the xenons on my RX300, but still, when you put in the price factor, you get a great value with the Acura product.

The passenger seat in our car's case is not heated on the back because of the airbag sensors. Something that in 2000 when we were buying our cars, was I am sure a costly option for BMW and other luxury makers.

You wrote:

"Honda adds all the options but the cost is quality/function. "

I dont think that quality is what you meant to write. Probably product performance is what you meant. That means that the xenons on the BMW are better than those in the Acura. Because when it comes to quality, certainly Acura has the upper hand when you consider the price. Function, no doubt Acura and all of the Japanese luxury makers are way ahead of any German maker. Function and ergonomics is something that American made cars are ahead of the Germans in many if not most cases. You exaggerated there.

"Sure you get all the "goodies" but they aren't anywhere near top class. "

The main reason for this is because BMW has the 7 series. And they have been sharing a lot of the components all the way down to the 3 series. Who did Acura have up to a year ago? THe previous RL? So BMW is "helped" by component sharing methodologies. Of course that's no excuse for Acura, but it's important to understand why Acura is lacking in the areas they do. Because in this case, as we all know, Acura is going upscale going forward, which means that the above argument will either be less significant or will not be a valid argument in the future. Currently though it is. You dont get all the options the way they perform on a BMW.

"Marketing sells the Honda (and how cheap it is ) Refinement/design/engineering sells the M3."

I talked about marketing. The Ultimate Driving Machine. Come on. It's not like they are not trying with their marketing at BMW.

Refinement. I dont think Acura has anything to be jelous of when it comes to refinement by BMW. Acuras if anything, are more refined than BMWs even if I dont take cost into consideration.

gavriil

Another member exaggerating. Let me correct you with the above.

Wherever Acura COMPETES you do not get an inferior product AT ALL. You get a product with different priorities than BMW and MB. Not Audi any more.

Just because Acuras are mostly FWD does not mean they are inferior. Just an example.

gavriil

I agree that German offerings are more emotional than Japanese offerings in the same segment, but I dont agree that they look "drop-dead gorgeous". Although, looks are compeletely subjective and there is no point in arguing the point, surely you understand that very many of us out there will disagree with the above. Especially in the case of BMW during the last generation of their products.

Finally, the lack of quality factor, you have made sound a lot less substantial than it currently is. The Germans have been going through an EXTREMELY substantial problem of lack of quality and reliability. With BMW and Porsche being in better shape then the others. Even if they fix half of that problem, they'd still be far behind the rest in the industry. Here even Acura is marginal with reliability during the past 2-3 years.

Irrelevant point here but let me add that if you think that the German product is emotional you should see what the Italian product has to offer in that respect If you had the opportunity to live with Italian cars, you'd feel the German's are making appliances. And I am not talking about Ferraris and Lambos necessarily.

I dont know if the A4 is a good example here. The A4 is losing its edge in that respect with every new iteration. The 325i may be a better example.

C230, is a marginal example also.

With that I completely disagree. There is NOTHING emotional about a VW Passat, if not VW all together. At least when compared with Honda/Acura. They are about the same.

The teutonic build is not part of the emotion at all. On the contrary.

I believe that we have different definitions of what an "emotional" vehicle is in this case. Which does not help with presenting arguments.

The way a vehicle looks is about emotion. The way a vehicle sounds is about emotion. The perception you have about a specific vehicle due to what you have heard about it before, what you have been exposed to and what it's doing on the track when it's racing your favorite race while carrying the same name. It's about how it "talks to you" when it's turning. Especially taking that turn that you always failed to take "right" with that "other" vehicle which always scared you to death at 20mph less than this new emotional vehicle. Etc, etc. The steering feel, the smell as you wrote, etc.

Emotion in the Italian sense is even when the vehicle breaks. ANd keeps breaking. And even leaves you stranded. That's for hard hord emotional enthusiasts


Yeah, better.

Always will? Ah...obviously you dont understand the fundamentals of capitalism. Never say never and never say always, in a free marketplace, especially the one of this country.

When Cadillac was "the standard of the world" the Germans were making bicycles.

My turn to exaggerate.

Innovation has been something they have been excelling on, but not something that they have been lucky with lately. As you know MB is pulling a lot of the "innovative" electronic aids and features from a number of their cars.

That's not to say that the Germans have not been innvators.

Can you explain to me what the latter point is so? Why do you think that the Japanese "will always be left in the shadow of the Germans."?

Compromise? I dont think anyone having 30K of a budget and is out of a compact four dour and decides to get a TSX and not a 325i is compromising with anything.


Like I said in a previous post, you are confused with the fact that Acura is simply not competing everywhere BMW is. As an example. Just because there is no 6-series fighter Acura, it does not mean that Acura is the inferior brand. They just dont compete there. It's important to be able to understand the difference here.


In many cases, they are superior to the Germans.

It is self explanatory that PRICE is one of the factors that need to be taken into consideration when comparing two products. If you do not do so, then we have different means of comparing product WE BUY. Cos to buy products, you need money, right?


And why is that? And what do you mean by "total package"?


Wait, it's not just that. Last I checked a 2000 BMW 330Ci cost 10-12K more than my CLS and in auto trim it was way slower than my car. Just one more item to add to the Acura in this case. There are more. The 330i was equipped with something called leatherine or leatherette, or something like that. I mean it sends the wrong signal when you equip the class' leader supposedly with something that looks and feels like leather, but it's not leather. I know you can get leather for more money in this case, but just making a point that many will understand why.

The lateral acceleration was also superior in the case of my FWD Acura if I remember correctly. Oh sure there is the BMW sport package but that also costs, money. No A-Spec CLS available back then. So again, Acura not competing in that segment.


And why is that bad?

But even so, I disagree with tha above because it is not true that the Japanese do not think of every single detail. I dont think the LS430 shows that the Japanese do not think of the details.

The fact that in general Japanese cars are more ergonomic than German made cars proves the above is not true. How do the Germans think of every little detail when they do not think ergonomics?


The BMW.

If you were given the choice between a TSX and a 325i TAKING EVERYTHING INTO CONSIDERATION LIKE EVERY SANE BUYER SHOULD, which would you chose?

In the case of the 2001 CLS and the 2000/1 330Ci, I chose the CLS. And if I were to do it all over again, i'd still do it with all the things I now know that I did not then. No doubt.

The BMW.

How many people buy with emotion being number 1 on their minds and price being last?

The BMW.

How many people care, or even know what "pure driving experience" even is?


Even if all knew that, how many people would put it at the top of their priority list? This is the same as in asking, how many people will take that turn with 60mph on the speedometer resulting in the 0.92g lateral acceleration that the BMW can produce? And on top of that, they would think "oh the Acura can only do 0.87g and I need to have that cos I used it on a daily basis as a featuer you know"?

Come on.... One does not need to be a market expert to use logic for how the market thinks when the market buys cars. Please sir.

Mostly not. It is probably part of that "emotional" factor you were referring to, above.


You may love Acura products but I do not think you understand Acura products, as well as BMW products.

No flaming needed. This is about civilized arguing about something we all love to talk about. Cars (and for some trucks too )

SPUDMTN

GREAT post. Very, VERY nicely done. This is what I am looking for...a thorough discussion, not single, one line, non-explanatory comments (no offense to anyone who has posted as such).

Yes...very true. I should not have touched the area of style, though I will say this: most vehicles today follow the trends of the Europeans. Many vehicles today are advertised as having European-inspired styling...so that's why I mention styling as a factor in my statement. Even BMW is being copied, as can be seen from the "Bangle-butt" boot treatment on many products (take a look at the Acura RL, Lexus GS, etc...).

Okay...so the problem is larger than I made it out to be. But not enough to slow down sales substantially. While I do not have raw figures for you, I can tell you that European/German car sales are still going strong. If the Germans get their act together (fully) and catch up with the Japanese in the reliability segment, the Japanese will have some more catching up to do (though I think this is unlikely...that is, that Germans will ever be up to par with Japanese reliability standards). Heck, I know that my family has been an all Japanese-car family for quite sometime for reliability reasons. My father said "never again will I not buy a Japanese product." I never thought I'd see the day that we'd be getting a BMW 330cic. With one drive, it was set in stone. What I'm saying is that reliability is looked over regularly when the drive, feel, smell, and sound of the vehicle is so sensual. Emotions do play a role in the buying experience, for many, though not everyone.

[QUOTE=gavriil] The Italians and the Brits (Aston Martin, particularly) build some incredibly...uhh...what's the word?...sexy (to put it politely) vehicles. And the eccentricities make up for the whole experience. Let's face it, the last vehicle I'd look out if I were interested in an incredibly reliable vehicle would be an Italian stallion or a British GT.

Well, a personal choice, no doubt...but hopefully my point is understood. Does an Acura TSX pull at your heart strings the same way a <insert German entry-lux car here> does?

Read above

Again, a tad bit subjective, I suppose...I suppose there is no other way for me to correct this one. But IMHO, the Passat is a more emotional choice than the Accord. Take a Touareg and a Phaeton for a drive and see what VW is all about. Give the new Passat a good look and see what has changed.

Meh...I feel (and believe many would agree with me--though hardly useful in a debate/discussion ) that the teutonic feel adds to the substantial feel of a German vehicle...which ties in with emotion, again. It lets you know that this is a serious machine. It has been well thought out (and can be a tad bit arrogant and over-engineered...emotional again, like the car telling you, "I know better than you" )

Exactly. You and I both could go on and on and on about how subjective everything is in this discussion. Fun to discuss nonetheless and see how different people think/feel.

I agree completely. I thought I stated that, though maybe I didn't, though maybe you were just agreeing with me. Whatever the case,

Thanks for calling me on that statement. "Never say never"...but I don't think we'll be seeing things change anytime soon. It seems that it is the Japanese way to perfect useful, proven technologies. That's my understanding. So I believe that we will continue to see the Germans innovate and the Japanese perfect. Now I'm a youngin' "know-it-all" but I just don't see this changing any time soon.

Would it be true to say that part of innovating involves experimentation and risk taking? Doesn't business involving persistence and must you be willing to take a risk to be successful? That's the only way one can find out if something is useful or practical is to put it out in the marketplace. The Japanese manufacturers, as a whole, seem to be somewhat cautious (which has made them so successful). That's not to say they do not innovate, either, but still...we say far more automotive innovations coming from across the Atlantic.

Heritage. The Germans made the first vehicle and have the years and years of accolades under their belts. Unless the Germans REALLY, I mean, REALLY screw up, they will continue to be the benchmark that everyone tries to catch up with. Let's face it: Acura, Lexus, and Infiniti all benchmark the Germans. That's a fact. Hence, the Japanese will continue to follow/chase the Germans (until that day they surpass them). And until the Japanese become a globally respected force to be reckoned with (in the prestigious luxury segment) the Germans will continue to rock the world with their automobiles. Take a survey of a wide range of people and ask them what their dream car is. Chances are that the majority choose a vehicle of the European variety. That's because of their proven reputation and respect of the consumer. Heritage and reputation do play a key role, as we all know, in sales. And it's sales that's dictated by public opinion (which in turn corrolates to brand recognition, heritage, reputation, etc...)

Sure there's a compromise. Let's face it...I'd be perfectly happy with a TSX considering what a great overall package it is. The value of the vehicle and the reliability would be the main selling point. But with value and reliability being taken into consideration, it is a clear compromise right there. The performance, luxury, and <ding ding ding...you guessed it> emotion involved in a German counterpart leaves something to be desired in the TSX, leading to the compromise. That's my logic.

Interesting...how so?

True to the consumer, but to the automobile enthusiast this is not the leading factor. First of all, when shopping in a class of automobile, you are comparing apples to apples. For instance, for a direct comparison, I would not compare an Acura TSX with a Mercedes-Benz E-class. The Acura is an entry-lux sports sedan while the Benz is a midsize luxury sedan. I would not compare the two. Now, a C-class, 3-series, or A4 is fair game. And that's how I compare the products. They are all in the same price bracket, and frankly, if you can afford one vehicle, you can afford any of the others. Value does play an important role, though it does not determine which is a superior product. It only aids in the consumer making a purchase and determines which vehicle is the best overall value.

-----

Welp, for the sake of time, I think I'm gonna end here. I will pick this up later, as I have wasted far too much time on one post. Till we meet again

Belzebutt

Damn, that front looks HOT with the spoiler, but every time I look at the tail lights, I feel like they wussed-out of something more edgy and at the last minute decided to replace it with something boring, something safe. These lights just don't go with the rest of the car.