Acura: TSX News
04-01-2010, 10:44 AM
#2442
The sedan is a different question entirely. But I'm hoping Acura hasn't totally lost it and will bring a V6+6MT+LSD combo out in the sedan with the mid-cycle refresh next year.
04-01-2010, 10:51 AM
#2443
6 Forward 1 Back
You'd be suprised with BMW. I don't know the stats, but read once that BMW has one of the highest take rates for manual transmissions. I want to say in the 15-20% range.
04-01-2010, 10:56 AM
#2444
Senior Moderator
In the wagon? Probably. It's a pretty small niche, and I wonder how many manual 3-series wagons BMW or Saab even make for the US. It's probably more likely that the automatic is a "mandatory option". Of course BMW and Saab are set up for special orders - Honda/Acura famously does one-size-fits-all trim levels and no orderable options. Audi doesn't even offer it in the A4 Avant - it's 4-cylinder, automatic only. Of course it's also Quattro only. Personally I wouldn't have an issue forgoing AWD to save money. It's not like I struggle to drive my TSX now in the snow.
I can't debate the business decision. Look at my earlier posts. I simply take issue with calling it whining. They are not IMO unreasonable expectations.
And that 4 cylinder A4 has 258 lb-ft of torque.
04-01-2010, 11:03 AM
#2445
Now whining about the power from the K24 is not unreasonable. I don't understand what Honda is doing here. Why isn't this engine making 220-230hp by now?
04-01-2010, 11:10 AM
#2446
Senior Moderator
At least that's what I'm hoping.
Having said that the K24 makes the most HP of any other NA engine of the same size right now. Albeit on premium. Its just that we all expect so much more from Honda.
04-01-2010, 11:23 AM
#2448
Honda is no longer class leading with any of its engines. So its not really that surprising. Most of their engines are likely at the end of their life cycles so the numbers don't look so good right now.
At least that's what I'm hoping.
Having said that the K24 makes the most HP of any other NA engine of the same size right now. Albeit on premium. Its just that we all expect so much more from Honda.
At least that's what I'm hoping.
Having said that the K24 makes the most HP of any other NA engine of the same size right now. Albeit on premium. Its just that we all expect so much more from Honda.
And yes I expect more from Honda!
04-01-2010, 01:00 PM
#2450
Exactly, the bottom line is that at the end of the day. for all the talk, there just won't be that many sales. Oh, there will be excuses, like "they wouldn't sell it to me for invoice" or "I couldn't get the color I wanted" but for whatever reason, a sale is not made.
I've done this math before but I'll try it again. Acura has not stated how many TSX wagons they plan to sell, but they currently sell about 40,000 TSX sedans per year. And, the "take rate" for manual transmissions is less than 10% (I think this is a little generous). I also think that wagon sales of 10,000 per year is more than generous. Personally, I think the manual transmission "take rate" in a station wagon is going to be lower than the 10% in the sedans, but let's use 10% for the sake of argument.
This means that 10% of 10,000 or 1000 cars would be produced over the course of a year. By my math, this is 83 cars per month. Also don't forget there are base and technology package models. So from a production standpoint, those 83 cars need to be divided by two, because that's how they'll be manufactured. So I guess you could make a flimsy case to "run the assembly line" to make one run of 40 cars, but what about color? When they build a batch of cars, they build all the same color in that production run. Finally, even if you could overcome all of those hurdles, you're faced with the fact that there are 250 Acura dealers. How does 83 units go into 250 stores?
Look, don't get me wrong, in my entire driving life I've never owned an automatic transmission. And I guess if I needed a station wagon I would be very disappointed that there is no manual available in the TSX. But I understand that manual transmissions are a tough sell in America, and station wagons have proven to be a fringe product at best. I can see no good reason to combine the two weakest segments of the automotive market into one vehicle at this time.
I've done this math before but I'll try it again. Acura has not stated how many TSX wagons they plan to sell, but they currently sell about 40,000 TSX sedans per year. And, the "take rate" for manual transmissions is less than 10% (I think this is a little generous). I also think that wagon sales of 10,000 per year is more than generous. Personally, I think the manual transmission "take rate" in a station wagon is going to be lower than the 10% in the sedans, but let's use 10% for the sake of argument.
This means that 10% of 10,000 or 1000 cars would be produced over the course of a year. By my math, this is 83 cars per month. Also don't forget there are base and technology package models. So from a production standpoint, those 83 cars need to be divided by two, because that's how they'll be manufactured. So I guess you could make a flimsy case to "run the assembly line" to make one run of 40 cars, but what about color? When they build a batch of cars, they build all the same color in that production run. Finally, even if you could overcome all of those hurdles, you're faced with the fact that there are 250 Acura dealers. How does 83 units go into 250 stores?
Look, don't get me wrong, in my entire driving life I've never owned an automatic transmission. And I guess if I needed a station wagon I would be very disappointed that there is no manual available in the TSX. But I understand that manual transmissions are a tough sell in America, and station wagons have proven to be a fringe product at best. I can see no good reason to combine the two weakest segments of the automotive market into one vehicle at this time.
04-01-2010, 01:19 PM
#2451
Go Big Blue!
Exactly, the bottom line is that at the end of the day. for all the talk, there just won't be that many sales. Oh, there will be excuses, like "they wouldn't sell it to me for invoice" or "I couldn't get the color I wanted" but for whatever reason, a sale is not made.
I've done this math before but I'll try it again. Acura has not stated how many TSX wagons they plan to sell, but they currently sell about 40,000 TSX sedans per year. And, the "take rate" for manual transmissions is less than 10% (I think this is a little generous). I also think that wagon sales of 10,000 per year is more than generous. Personally, I think the manual transmission "take rate" in a station wagon is going to be lower than the 10% in the sedans, but let's use 10% for the sake of argument.
This means that 10% of 10,000 or 1000 cars would be produced over the course of a year. By my math, this is 83 cars per month. Also don't forget there are base and technology package models. So from a production standpoint, those 83 cars need to be divided by two, because that's how they'll be manufactured. So I guess you could make a flimsy case to "run the assembly line" to make one run of 40 cars, but what about color? When they build a batch of cars, they build all the same color in that production run. Finally, even if you could overcome all of those hurdles, you're faced with the fact that there are 250 Acura dealers. How does 83 units go into 250 stores?
Look, don't get me wrong, in my entire driving life I've never owned an automatic transmission. And I guess if I needed a station wagon I would be very disappointed that there is no manual available in the TSX. But I understand that manual transmissions are a tough sell in America, and station wagons have proven to be a fringe product at best. I can see no good reason to combine the two weakest segments of the automotive market into one vehicle at this time.
I've done this math before but I'll try it again. Acura has not stated how many TSX wagons they plan to sell, but they currently sell about 40,000 TSX sedans per year. And, the "take rate" for manual transmissions is less than 10% (I think this is a little generous). I also think that wagon sales of 10,000 per year is more than generous. Personally, I think the manual transmission "take rate" in a station wagon is going to be lower than the 10% in the sedans, but let's use 10% for the sake of argument.
This means that 10% of 10,000 or 1000 cars would be produced over the course of a year. By my math, this is 83 cars per month. Also don't forget there are base and technology package models. So from a production standpoint, those 83 cars need to be divided by two, because that's how they'll be manufactured. So I guess you could make a flimsy case to "run the assembly line" to make one run of 40 cars, but what about color? When they build a batch of cars, they build all the same color in that production run. Finally, even if you could overcome all of those hurdles, you're faced with the fact that there are 250 Acura dealers. How does 83 units go into 250 stores?
Look, don't get me wrong, in my entire driving life I've never owned an automatic transmission. And I guess if I needed a station wagon I would be very disappointed that there is no manual available in the TSX. But I understand that manual transmissions are a tough sell in America, and station wagons have proven to be a fringe product at best. I can see no good reason to combine the two weakest segments of the automotive market into one vehicle at this time.
04-01-2010, 01:31 PM
#2453
Nobody buys the V6 sedan (personally I think it's priced a little too high) and I doubt the wagon could be brought to market for less. Besides, the CrossTour is only available in a V6 so that might be part of the overall plan?
04-01-2010, 01:57 PM
#2455
Burning Brakes
I have noticed that some of the photos have TSX wagon prototype at the bottom, I wonder if there are additional changes coming that haven't been revealed yet because of the sedan?
04-01-2010, 02:27 PM
#2459
No, the only change is that they're going to replace the plood with something even more cheap and downmarket-looking.
04-01-2010, 08:17 PM
#2462
Senior Moderator
I was hoping for a V6. The wife won't care, though. I love the design. I want one! Now to start lobbying the wife to let us get rid of the Pilot. Not kidding. Will be hard....she 
her Pilot.
her Pilot.
04-01-2010, 08:32 PM
#2463
You'll Never Walk Alone
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The K24 in the current TSX makes a whole horsepower more than the 2.4L GDI engine in the Sonata - and less torque, which probably means that the Hyundai engine makes more power in normal driving than the K24. What's the margin of error on these SAE tests anyway?
And yes I expect more from Honda!
And yes I expect more from Honda!
As you can see, even though the maximum torque is rated at 172lbft, it actually puts down 162lbft to the wheels, or 6% difference. As a car enthusiast, I'm sure you know that with a MT, you usually lose about 10-15% from the crank to wheels. Perhaps Honda underrated the engine there a little?
For comparison, here is a dyno for the IS250 6MT:
Note that every dyno is different, so this is not exactly a fair comparison. But at least it shows that despite the fact that the TSX has a 2.4L engine, vs the 2.5L in the IS, and not having the newest technologies, the TSX still puts down some pretty good numbers.
If you are not convinced by that, here are some performance numbers from Car and Driver:
0-60
IS250 6MT: 7.1s
TSX 6MT: 6.7s
Sonata 6AT (is there a 6MT model?): 7.8s
Accord 5AT (has a detuned K24): 8.2s
1/4 mile
IS250 6MT: 15.4 sec @ 90 mph
TSX 6MT: 15.3 sec @ 93 mph
Sonata 6AT (is there a 6MT model?): 16.1 sec @ 89 mph
Accord 5AT: 16.4@86mph
5-60mph (important to see if there's good low-end grunt from the engine)
IS250 6MT: 8.4s
TSX 6MT: 7.3s
Sonata 6AT (is there a 6MT model?): 8.2s
Accord 5AT: 8.7s
Fuel Efficiency (EPA and actual numbers obtained by C&D)
IS250 6MT: 20 city/20 actual
TSX 6MT: 20 city/28 hwy/ 25 actual (26 actual for the long term test)
Sonata 6AT: 22 city/ 35 hwy/ 24 actual
Accord 5AT: 21 city/ 31 hwy/ 25 actual
Weight:
IS250 6MT: 3465lb
TSX 6MT: 3380lb
Sonata 6AT: 3340lb
Accord 5AT: 3363lb
We can see a number of things here. The TSX 6MT will smoke the Sonata 6AT while delivering similar actual mpg despite being slightly heavier. The Sonata is faster than the Accord in every category though (but the gap is certainly smaller than the gap between the TSX and Sonata), but that is expected since the Accord still uses the ancient 5AT. Nonetheless it still returns similar mpg.
Here are the links to the numbers I have used here:
http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezfl...a4472d3500.pdf
http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezfl...027fe43a44.pdf
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t/specs_page_2
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take_road_test
04-01-2010, 09:22 PM
#2465
Interesting numbers, thanks. It would be interesting to see what a 6MT Sonata looks like on a dyno. Regardless I still expect more from Honda. Parity with the competition is not enough!
04-02-2010, 12:04 AM
#2466
Another narrow niche market vehicle from Honda/Acura. My sense is that this is a strange entry to the Subaru Outback world... otherwise, I do not know what they are thinking here.
04-02-2010, 02:15 PM
#2468
Whats up with RDX owners?
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^ Red text?
04-02-2010, 03:58 PM
#2469
Honda Fanboy
The embed didn't work, so here's the link: http://sohc.vtec.net/article_files/7...s06TSX_6MT.gif
Interesting numbers, thanks. It would be interesting to see what a 6MT Sonata looks like on a dyno. Regardless I still expect more from Honda. Parity with the competition is not enough!
Interesting numbers, thanks. It would be interesting to see what a 6MT Sonata looks like on a dyno. Regardless I still expect more from Honda. Parity with the competition is not enough!
04-02-2010, 04:28 PM
#2470
Burning Brakes
Also, do you think Acura might be concerned that the price of a V6 wagon with Tech would be really close to the base MDX?
04-03-2010, 07:13 PM
#2471
You'll Never Walk Alone
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The embed didn't work, so here's the link: http://sohc.vtec.net/article_files/7...s06TSX_6MT.gif
Interesting numbers, thanks. It would be interesting to see what a 6MT Sonata looks like on a dyno. Regardless I still expect more from Honda. Parity with the competition is not enough!
Interesting numbers, thanks. It would be interesting to see what a 6MT Sonata looks like on a dyno. Regardless I still expect more from Honda. Parity with the competition is not enough!
You also raised a question, asking why the K24 TSX isn't making 220-230hp. I think there are several reasons behind that. To start off, I think the extra hp is rather useless for normal driving. Given that engine size, it's rather difficult to make more torque. As I have shown in my previous post, the K24 is already developing the same, if not more torque than the 2.5L engine of the IS250. So in order to generate that extra 20-30hp, the engine must rev higher and be able to develop ample amount of torque at higher rpm. But here's the thing, how often do people drive at such high rpms? This isn't a S2000 or NSX. This is a normal entry level luxury sports sedan. For most people, torque is more important than peak power in this case, and again, we see some decent amount of torque from the K24 throughout the rev range.
When you look at the specs of the K24, you should notice that Honda purposely designed this engine to be more torque-biased. While in a K20, both the bore and the stroke are 86mm, in the K24, the bore is 87mm, and the stroke is 99mm. In other words, most of that extra engine size comes from the lengthened stroke. Most car enthusiasts will tell you that if you want peak hp, you will go for larger bore and shorter stroke. And if you want more torque, then the bore should be smaller while the stroke should be longer. Having a longer stroke also affects the ability for the engine to rev high (because there's a limit to the piston speed).
In the past, or for the 1st gen TSX, some people complained about the lack of torque. Honda answered that by making a K24 that has more usable torque through out the rev range. And for those that demand even more torque and power, there's the V6 TSX for them (pricing for that is another discussion).
04-30-2010, 10:23 AM
#2472
The sizzle in the Steak
Honda recalls 167,255 Acura TSX cars in the U.S.
Power steering fluid could leak and cause an under-the-hood fire.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN3018075420100430
Don't park your TSX in your garage.
DETROIT, April 30 (Reuters) - Honda Motor Co Ltd (7267.T) said it would recall 167,255 Acura TSX sedans sold in the U.S. market to address the risk that power steering fluid could leak and cause an under-the-hood fire.
The recall, covering 2004-2008 model year Acura TSX vehicles with 2.4-liter inline four-cylinder engines, comes after one fire was reported due to leaking fluid.
Honda and U.S. safety regulators said that over time power steering hoses may crack and leak.
U.S. safety regulators in a statement issued Friday morning said power steering fluid "leaking onto a hot exhaust pipe will generate smoke and a burning smell, and could potentially result in an under hood fire."
Honda will notify U.S. Acura TSX owners and its dealers will repair the Acuras for free, beginning on May 28, said the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration in a report.
The repair, Honda said, involves installation of a new power steering hose, O-ring gasket and fluid.
Honda officials in Canada said that cars in Canada were not subject to the recall.
The recall, covering 2004-2008 model year Acura TSX vehicles with 2.4-liter inline four-cylinder engines, comes after one fire was reported due to leaking fluid.
Honda and U.S. safety regulators said that over time power steering hoses may crack and leak.
U.S. safety regulators in a statement issued Friday morning said power steering fluid "leaking onto a hot exhaust pipe will generate smoke and a burning smell, and could potentially result in an under hood fire."
Honda will notify U.S. Acura TSX owners and its dealers will repair the Acuras for free, beginning on May 28, said the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration in a report.
The repair, Honda said, involves installation of a new power steering hose, O-ring gasket and fluid.
Honda officials in Canada said that cars in Canada were not subject to the recall.
Don't park your TSX in your garage.
don't get me started with the breaks.
04-30-2010, 12:47 PM
#2478
I drive a Subata.
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mazda ftw 
04-30-2010, 01:16 PM
#2479
I'm the Firestarter
04-30-2010, 01:27 PM
#2480
The sizzle in the Steak
Stupid unreliable built to break Germa........errrrr..........wait a minute this is a Japanese car!!?!?!!!
Honda quality!!! :wink:
Ya see people.....there is no such thing as the bullet-proof car.
Reliability is subjective.
Honda quality!!! :wink:
Ya see people.....there is no such thing as the bullet-proof car.
Reliability is subjective.