Acura: TLX News

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Old 04-11-2017, 11:57 AM
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Rear looks fine. An improvement with those visible exhaust. But damn, that grille is too big (IMO). And the area around the fogs.... looks too cheap.... it's too Honda Civic.




I prefer the current front grille blacked out. It's less obnoxious.

Old 04-11-2017, 12:17 PM
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Amber DRL is not luxurious. The straight line doesn't work either with all the angles going on around it.

Sigh.
Old 04-11-2017, 12:19 PM
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I love amber
Old 04-11-2017, 12:24 PM
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Front end....don't like it, rear end looks really nice though. Thank God for exhaust tips!
Old 04-11-2017, 12:32 PM
  #11765  
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Is there no one in all of Acura who knows how to make a front end of a car?! The pre-MMC TLX wasn't particularly eye-catching, but it was reasonably handsome. Now, it looks like it's shouting "LOOK AT ME! I HAVE A GIANT GRILLE LIKE A LEXUS, TOO!"
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Old 04-11-2017, 12:34 PM
  #11766  
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Originally Posted by ttribe
Is there no one in all of Acura who knows how to make a front end of a car?! The pre-MMC TLX wasn't particularly eye-catching, but it was reasonably handsome. Now, it looks like it's shouting "LOOK AT ME! I HAVE A GIANT GRILLE LIKE A LEXUS, TOO!"
One problem is that they are trying to fit a grille on a pre-existing body.....that's just not gonna work most of the time...lol...

It's hard to judge the grille when it's being put on cars that weren't designed for it in the first place.
Old 04-11-2017, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by iforyou
One problem is that they are trying to fit a grille on a pre-existing body.....that's just not gonna work most of the time...lol...

It's hard to judge the grille when it's being put on cars that weren't designed for it in the first place.
That's an important point. Which car is the first to get a full model update? RLX?
Old 04-11-2017, 01:01 PM
  #11768  
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Originally Posted by iforyou
One problem is that they are trying to fit a grille on a pre-existing body.....that's just not gonna work most of the time...lol...

It's hard to judge the grille when it's being put on cars that weren't designed for it in the first place.
Well then don't do it till you do have a body it was meant for. And it's not like they don't already do different grills on different models. The RDX has been selling just fine along side of the newer looking MDX grill.
Old 04-11-2017, 01:13 PM
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^ Can't wait for the MMC NSX to get this huge ass grille.
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Old 04-11-2017, 01:21 PM
  #11770  
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Old 04-11-2017, 01:22 PM
  #11771  
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Originally Posted by RPhilMan1
Amber DRL is not luxurious. The straight line doesn't work either with all the angles going on around it.

Sigh.
I don't think those are the DRLs. I think those are just the turn signals. See attached for DRLs.
Attached Thumbnails Acura: TLX News-drl.jpg  
Old 04-11-2017, 01:39 PM
  #11772  
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Better sized pic:
Old 04-11-2017, 01:42 PM
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Talking Article



It has red lines around the chrome bits. I really really hope that this is ambient lighting and not just some painted stripes.






http://www.themanual.com/auto/2018-a...edan-debut/#/4
Acura Debuts a Sharper, More Advanced TLX Sport Sedan
Written by Miles Branman — Posted on 4.11.17







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Acura has had a rough go of it the last few years, proffering uninspired entry-level luxury vehicles with a vague sense of design language.

Finally, things are looking up. The all-new NSX supercar is here with its sophisticated hybrid drivetrain and futuristic looks. Acura’s MDX crossover has been significantly updated inside and out to make it one of the most compelling midsize models. Now, the Japanese automaker is throwing another log on the fire with a redesigned TLX sedan.

The 2018 TLX debuted at the 2017 New York Auto Show and we like what we see.

Acura’s Precision Concept can be seen throughout the new TLX’s sharp, aggressive exterior design cues. Most notably, a new diamond pentagon grille sits between new Jewel-eye headlights and below a re-sculpted hood. New 17- and 18-inch wheel designs give the sedan an eye-catching profile. At the rear, an updated fascia, dual chrome exhaust ports, and rear diffuser finish off the sporty aesthetic.


“We’ve really upped the ante in terms of styling, emotion, and road presence, more effectively communicating the TLX’s dynamic capabilities,” said Jon Ikeda, Acura vice president and general manager.

More: Buick Is Changing The Regal’s Mission With A Wagon and Four-Door Coupe

Powering the 2018 TLX is your choice of 2.4-liter inline 4-cylinder or V6 engines. Outputs for both powertrains have not yet been released.

There will be 3 distinct trims, including the new TLX A-Spec kit. Available with front or all-wheel drive, the V6 A-Spec adds round LED fog lights, aggressive side sills, large round dual-exhaust ports, and a gloss black decklid spoiler. The range-topping TLX is also fitted with dark-finish 19-inch wheels, a more precise steering system, and sport-tuned suspension.

Every 2018 TLX will ship with Apple CarPlay, Android Auto, and AcuraWatch safety technologies. An optional Advance Package adds a Surround View Camera, wireless phone charging, LED ambient lighting, power-folding side mirrors, a heated steering wheel, and heated rear seats. Acura’s new 2-screen infotainment system debuts in the TLX with a faster response and more intuitive menus.

The 2018 TLX hits showrooms this June. Pricing information will be released closer to its on-sale date.

Old 04-11-2017, 01:48 PM
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I like the changes inside and out.... but without a proper engine, not a lot of current TLX owners will switch.

i am still surprised that Acura still refuses to put the 2.0T in the base TLX at this point....
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Old 04-11-2017, 01:58 PM
  #11775  
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Originally Posted by oonowindoo
I like the changes inside and out.... but without a proper engine, not a lot of current TLX owners will switch.

i am still surprised that Acura still refuses to put the 2.0T in the base TLX at this point....
...especially when a lot of competition in the segment have the turbo as a standard. That's one of the reasons why they can't drop the "entry" premium stigma
Old 04-11-2017, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by AZuser
Rear looks fine. An improvement with those visible exhaust. But damn, that grille is too big (IMO). And the area around the fogs.... looks too cheap.... it's too Honda Civic.




I prefer the current front grille blacked out. It's less obnoxious.

Old 04-11-2017, 04:13 PM
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10 seconds. . . .

Old 04-11-2017, 04:21 PM
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Boring.
Old 04-11-2017, 04:33 PM
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The rear looks nice, but that front....
Old 04-11-2017, 04:35 PM
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That grille pattern with all lines running towards the oversized badge looks horrible.

How many times does Ikeda have to say "aggressive"?? Saying it's so, doesn't necessarily make it so....

And that is some tepidly WEAK-ass applause.....



Last edited by nanxun; 04-11-2017 at 04:40 PM.
Old 04-11-2017, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by nanxun
That grille pattern with all lines running towards the oversized badge looks horrible.


That grille pattern reminds me of the Mercedes CLA and E Class coupe grilles


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Old 04-11-2017, 08:52 PM
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2018 Acura TLX Makes World Debut with Aggressive, Sporty Design, and New Technology Features - Honda News

2018 Acura TLX Makes World Debut with Aggressive, Sporty Design, and New Technology Features

Apr 11, 2017 - NEW YORK
  • 2018 Acura TLX sports sedan debuts with three distinct variants, Acura Precision Concept-inspired design language and robust tech features
  • All-new TLX V6 A-Spec adds emotional styling and sport-tuning
  • Standard Apple CarPlay, Android Auto and AcuraWatch™, and a host of premium features make TLX among most technologically advanced and well-equipped vehicles in its segment

Acura has unveiled a refreshed and significantly enhanced 2018 TLX performance luxury sedan, delivering the brand's Precision Crafted Performance design direction to its core sedan. The all-new TLX A-Spec takes the sedan's design in an even more emotional direction, further broadening the brand's appeal to younger buyers. The Acura TLX also will be one of the most technologically advanced and well-equipped vehicles in the segment with new technology features including Apple CarPlay™, Android Auto™ and AcuraWatch™ standard on all grades. The 2018 TLX is slated to go on sale at Acura dealerships nationwide in June.

The 2018 TLX boasts a more aggressive and sporty look inspired by the Acura Precision Concept that debuted last year, a design direction that has successfully influenced the styling of the 2017 MDX luxury SUV. Acura's signature diamond pentagon grille, paired with changes to the sedan's stance, proportion, wheels and sheet metal boosts its presence on the road.

"We've really upped the ante in terms of styling, emotion and road presence, more effectively communicating the TLX's dynamic capabilities," said Jon Ikeda, Acura vice president and general manager.

The 2018 TLX design illustrates its three variants with distinct characteristics. The 2.4-liter i-VTEC inline-4 cylinder TLX receives a sporty new front fascia featuring the diamond pentagon grille, a new bumper, more sculpted hood, fenders, redesigned Jewel Eye™ headlight design with LED turn signal and a new standard 17-inch wheel and tire package.

The V6 TLX models add an aggressive, refreshed rear fascia with exposed, rectangular dual-exhaust finishers, rear diffuser and standard 18-inch wheels. The V6 TLX with Technology Package adds a new chrome side sill garnish, all-new seats with contrast piping and stitching, and a power-operated thigh extension on the driver's seat. The Advance Package gains additional technology including trapezoidal LED fog lights, Surround View Camera system, built-in wireless charging pad, white LED ambient light piping in 10 locations throughout the cabin, a heated steering wheel and heated rear outboard seats, a body-colored decklid spoiler, and power-folding side mirrors.

Acura's acclaimed torque vectoring Super Handling All-Wheel Drive® (SH-AWD™), the best handling all-wheel drive system in the industry, is available for the first time on all V6 TLX models, previously available only with V6 models equipped with Technology or Advance Packages

New TLX A-Spec

Reflecting Acura's Precision Crafted Performance DNA, the new TLX V6 A-Spec is available in two-wheel drive and SH-AWD™ configurations, adding character and performance inside and out. An exclusive front fascia, round LED fog lights, aggressive side sills, rear diffuser accented by large, round dual-exhaust finishers and gloss black decklid spoiler creates an even bolder character. Exclusive, dark finish 19-inch wheels paired with wide 245-series tires complement a sport-tuned suspension with more aggressive damper settings and retuned electric power steering for a sharper, more precise handling experience. TLX A-Spec models with SH-AWD also receive a stiffer spring rate and rear stabilizer bar for improved body control. Gloss black trim and A-Spec badging on the rear decklid, fenders, side sill garnish and steering wheel completes the look.

On the inside, a host of sport-oriented refinements and premium features include exclusive leather seats with increased bolstering, red driver's meter highlights, brushed aluminum-look interior trim, and a thick-rimmed sport steering wheel. Two A-Spec exclusive interior color choices are offered: Red leather or Black leather with Alcantara™ seat and door inserts. Premium enhancements borrowed from the top trim Advance Package include wireless charging pad, ventilated front seats and red LED ambient light piping (white on the Advance Package).

Technology Enhancements

The 2018 TLX is the first Acura to feature a refreshed dual-screen user On Demand Multi-Use Display™ (ODMD 2.0) interface that supports Apple CarPlay™, Android Auto™ and Sirius XM 2.0. New software improves the system response time and offers more intuitive menus and command structures for a seamless and quicker user experience – approximately 30 percent faster. An enhanced 7-inch touchscreen has a capacitive display that is more responsive to the touch and is positioned within easy reach of the driver and front passenger.

With its unique AcuraWatch™ suite of technologies, the 2018 Acura TLX is the only vehicle in its class with standard crash avoidance and active driving-assistive features. AcuraWatch™ includes Collision Mitigation Braking System (CMBS) with automatic emergency braking, Forward Collision Warning (FCW), Lane Keeping Assist (LKAS), Adaptive Cruise Control (ACC) with Low-Speed Follow (LSF) and Road Departure Mitigation (RDM). AcuraWatch uses a millimeter wave radar and monocular camera sensing technology to detect other vehicles as well as lane markings and can help intervene to prevent or mitigate the severity of a collision. With Adaptive Cruise Control with Low-Speed Follow and Lane Keeping Assist, AcuraWatch can significantly decrease the driver's workload during freeway cruising by maintaining a set speed and following interval, initiating both braking and throttle inputs, and adding steering input to help the driver maintain their position in the detected lane.


2018 Acura TLX Reveal NYIAS ? April 11, 2017 Remarks for Jon Ikeda - Honda News

2018 Acura TLX Reveal NYIAS – April 11, 2017 Remarks for Jon Ikeda

Apr 11, 2017

Good afternoon everyone. It's great to be back in New York! I want to thank all of you for joining us for the world debut of the 2018 Acura TLX. And I want to welcome everyone watching online, especially our Precision Team back in California.

Before we get to today's news, I want to share my tremendous excitement for Acura Motorsports and the NSX GT3 race program. Five years ago, when we announced the return of NSX, we also revealed our intention to take it racing. And in January, we realized that dream with the NSX GT3 taking to the track at the Rolex 24 Hours of Daytona. We're only a few months into the program but we're already enjoying some great success and having just as much fun doing it. Let's take a look.

Now, I want to thank everyone involved in the NSX GT3 program. Most importantly our partners, Michael Shank Racing and RealTime Racing for their commitment to Acura and their incredible competitive spirit.

As I said in the video, performance is the future of our brand and to be a credible performance brand, you need a supercar, and you need to take that supercar racing.

A year ago, as we celebrated Acura's 30th anniversary, we returned to our authentic and original brand promise, Precision Crafted Performance. Today, we're fully embracing that promise, and crystalizing the brand around the original concepts that made Acura a success.

Having been there, I can tell you, other than when we launched the brand 31 years ago, there's never been a time in our history when we've had such clarity of purpose. This means we're intent on blazing our own trail in design, in the application of performance technologies, in our marketing and throughout the entire customer experience.

2016 marked the first year of our return to our original DNA. But everything we're doing from this day forward reflects our relentless focus on Precision Crafted Performance.

We just launched the MDX Sport Hybrid, which joins the RLX and NSX as the third model to utilize our three-motor Sport Hybrid system. Performance is a function of technology, powertrain and chassis but styling and design play a critical role in communicating that performance and last year we showcased our future styling direction with the Acura Precision Concept.

The restyled and refreshed 2017 MDX was the first model to apply our new design direction including the bold, new diamond pentagon grille. Moving forward, increasing the emotion and road-presence of Acura design is critical to our strategy. We did it with MDX.

Now, we're turning our attention to our sedans, and to our most important model, what has long been the volume and image leader in our sedan lineup, the TLX.

It's no secret that the luxury sedan market is a tough business. And with every premium automaker fighting for its share, I'm not surprised to see the competition resorting to very aggressive tactics. But we have continued to hold our own against the competition with the TLX while maintaining a disciplined sales approach.

So, it's a challenging market but sedans remain a critical pillar of our brand, and the refreshed 2018 TLX you're about to see substantially elevates its emotion and character. It's the next step in our transformation as we sharpen our focus on Precision Crafted Performance, in everything that we do and everything that we make.

Let's take a look at the 2018 Acura TLX!

Well, here it is. The 2018 Acura TLX!

We started by taking all of the goodness that underpins TLX, our powerful and refined engines, and the industry's most sophisticated torque vectoring all-wheel drive system and wrapped it around a more aggressive, sporty and alluring shape inspired by the Acura Precision Concept.

As before, we have two powertrains but distinct styling has created much-needed separation between the four- and six-cylinder models. Available with the V6, the new A-Spec TLX we are revealing for the first time today, adds character and performance inside and out, with emotional styling and sport tuning.

Across all TLX models, everything forward of the A-pillars is brand new. A sporty front fascia featuring Acura's signature diamond pentagon grille, mated to a new bumper, hood, and fenders gives TLX a bold, new look.

This V-6 model adds an aggressive, redesigned rear fascia with exposed dual-exhaust and standard 18-inch wheels.

We've made subtle changes to stance, proportion, wheels and sheet metal to add character and emotion, to more strongly communicate the TLX's dynamic capabilities.

This new A-Spec adds even more emotion and performance, starting with exclusive bodywork including a unique front fascia with a darker grille and round fog lights. There's also a more aggressive side-sill matched up with exclusive 19-inch wheels and wider, 245-series tires.

Around back, the A-Spec's rear fascia sports an aggressive diffuser, black spoiler, 4-inch dual exhausts and more.

As for the chassis, that 245-series tire is paired with a sport-tuned suspension with more aggressive damper, bushing and spring settings, and more responsive steering.

Inside the cabin, we've added new premium content and features making TLX one of the most technologically advanced and well-equipped cars in the segment, from the base-model on up.

It is the only vehicle in its class with active safety and driver-assistive technologies standard across-the-board, what we call AcuraWatch. And every model features Apple CarPlay and Android Auto. We've also redesigned the native user interface, making it faster to use and easier to navigate, with a modern design.

The Advance package elevates TLX's sophistication with all of the exclusive features you see here.

For the A-Spec, aggressive bodywork is complemented by a sporty interior with Alcantara trim, contrast stitching, red ambient lighting and an exclusive new sport seat available in red with thick sports steering wheel. The A-Spec is available on all V6 TLX models positioned just below the Advance grade making it accessible to younger buyers.

We will announce pricing in early May, but I can tell you that with its rich content and enhanced performance image, TLX will be a compelling factor in this highly competitive segment.

Backed-up by strong products like the new TLX and MDX and, of course, the amazing NSX, we have dramatically overhauled Acura's brand voice and marketing direction over the past year. With vivid colors, bold music and an enthusiastic voice that celebrates inclusivity, not exclusivity, this new direction separates Acura from the pack.

And because we're in New York, I'm very excited to debut the brand new TLX creative that will launch online tonight.

As you can see, through our products and our marketing, we are positioning Acura as a challenger brand, embracing the future with youthful vitality, energy and optimism.

Again, I really appreciate you taking the time to be with us. All of us on the Acura team look forward to spending time with you tonight.

Now, after a few quick photos I want to invite everyone for a closer look at the new TLX.

Thank you!!
Old 04-11-2017, 09:49 PM
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Fetal alcohol syndrome in a car fascia.

If the grille were a little less upright and 30% smaller, I bet it would be quite a looker.
Old 04-12-2017, 06:34 AM
  #11784  
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Lets hope that the new model in 2 years will come with a proper powertrain and a grill that is actually pleasing.
Old 04-12-2017, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by iforyou
One problem is that they are trying to fit a grille on a pre-existing body.....that's just not gonna work most of the time...lol...

It's hard to judge the grille when it's being put on cars that weren't designed for it in the first place.
IF you are changing the Hood, Headlights, Bumper, Fenders (which are usually whats changed the most on MMC) there is NO reason you cant design a Grille to fit on a pre existing body and have it fit and flow. Once again the people at Acura are blinded by something unexplainable to by the rest of the world when it comes to design.
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Old 04-12-2017, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Civic2TSX
I don't think those are the DRLs. I think those are just the turn signals. See attached for DRLs.
I'm not so sure. The photo of the white TLX at the top of this page clearly shows both amber DRLs on and the car is stationary and not turning. The headlights also look on. I think the turn signals are at the "sides" or "end" of the headlights.

The RLX also uses an amber DRL and I think Acura is continuing this silly trend.



Originally Posted by TacoBello
I love amber
You may like it, but to compete in the luxury world I don't think it's the way to go. Or in any market. Audi has done it the best for many years, and look how good their DRLs are. Bright white light looks the most luxurious. All the Germans do it well now and even my 2013 Ford has it. Look at Honda and the new Civic! They can do it right, there.

This isn't 2003 anymore where GM had amber lights as DRL and other brands like Acura started having super low-beam halogens as their DRL. Get with the times!

In general most LEDs are naturally whiter in color anyway. Why purposely make it amber? Also creates terrible contrast with the jewel LED headlights.
Old 04-12-2017, 01:39 PM
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Can't compete in the luxury world because of Amber DRLs? LOL! C'mon. That's the least of their issues.

as you pointed out, we don't even know how those lights even work and are just speculating for now.

personally, I like it. EVERYONE does the white on white lights these says. Booooring. It's nice to see someone step outside the box. You don't have to agree... Just saying that not everyone feels the same about it. An Amber DRL does not define luxury/no luxury. For all we know, maybe they're switchbacks, like Audi uses.

Last edited by TacoBello; 04-12-2017 at 01:41 PM.
Old 04-12-2017, 01:56 PM
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The RLX does NOT use amber DRL. If you're talking about those lower lights, those are the "parking" lights. That's like saying the amber lights on the 09-14 TL were the DRLs and they were not. Here's a pic with just the DRLs on...regular lights at lowered output.
Old 04-12-2017, 01:59 PM
  #11789  
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DRLs are 10% of highbeam output. Always have been, unless a car has a dedicated DRL. Seeing as DRLs aren't required by law in the US, I don't see why manufacturers would put useless equipment on a car, when they can eliminate it and lower the price point of the vehicle. It may not be much, but that's exactly what the bean counters at every company cares about.
Old 04-12-2017, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by kurtatx
That's an important point. Which car is the first to get a full model update? RLX?
Probably?? It makes sense to launch it on the flagship IMO.

Originally Posted by jwong77
Well then don't do it till you do have a body it was meant for. And it's not like they don't already do different grills on different models. The RDX has been selling just fine along side of the newer looking MDX grill.
That's true too. But Acura seems very desperate to start implementing the Precision concept stuff. Everyone is onto their @$$ right now. Perhaps to them, the easiest and cheapest solution is adding that grille to as many models as possible in the shortest period of time. When the RDX and ILX MMC came out, those wee before the precision concept stuff IIRC.

Originally Posted by AZuser
^ Can't wait for the MMC NSX to get this huge ass grille.
lol, that might look good. Afterall, the "beak" also looks good on the NSX...

Originally Posted by oonowindoo
I like the changes inside and out.... but without a proper engine, not a lot of current TLX owners will switch.

i am still surprised that Acura still refuses to put the 2.0T in the base TLX at this point....
This, and the sport hybrid setup too. Both are readily available. But Honda chose to not spend the money to make these powertrain choices fit the TLX.

Originally Posted by fsttyms1
IF you are changing the Hood, Headlights, Bumper, Fenders (which are usually whats changed the most on MMC) there is NO reason you cant design a Grille to fit on a pre existing body and have it fit and flow. Once again the people at Acura are blinded by something unexplainable to by the rest of the world when it comes to design.
Yea, you can change all those items - hood, headlights, bumpers, fenders, etc. Not saying they can't do a better job, but there's also only so much the designers can do. The overall shape of the car, the hard points, safety, budget, etc - these are probably the limiting factors. It would be easier to start from fresh.
Old 04-12-2017, 04:17 PM
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We probably see the accord get the 2.0T before ILX or TLX.

and when TLX/ILX finally gets it, it will be "What else is new" all over again.
Old 04-12-2017, 05:04 PM
  #11792  
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Originally Posted by oonowindoo
We probably see the accord get the 2.0T before ILX or TLX.

and when TLX/ILX finally gets it, it will be "What else is new" all over again.
From what I've heard, the next Accord will have a 1.5T (replacing the current 2.4L) and a 2.0T (replacing the J35 V6).

For Acura, with Honda finally willing to spend money on the luxury brand, my understanding is that they will have turbocharged V6.
Old 04-12-2017, 05:33 PM
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Soooooooo, the only performance improvements are slightly tweaked dampers and a beefier rear sway bar on the SH-AWD?

No manual option, no adaptive suspension, no brake improvements, no bump in power...

Sweet, let me go run out right now and sell my Golf R to get back in a TLX!
Old 04-12-2017, 05:36 PM
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it's got exhaust tips now! That is the realistic improvement we were expecting!!

Adaptive suspension come on man.... it does not even offer HUD or Auto Leveling headlights. ....

Does it have Adaptive anything?
Old 04-12-2017, 07:16 PM
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Adaptive cruise control
Old 04-13-2017, 08:47 AM
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IMO it reminds me of the new Lexus' grills. . However, I still think it is better than the previous, hideous beak grill.

Originally Posted by AZuser
That grille pattern reminds me of the Mercedes CLA and E Class coupe grilles

Other Mercs have the same... mine has a similar looking one and I love the look of it.
Old 04-13-2017, 11:53 AM
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For some reason, on the Mercs, it looks luxury and on Acura, it looks cheap
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Old 04-13-2017, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Civic2TSX
That's like saying the amber lights on the 09-14 TL were the DRLs and they were not.
Acura used the brights as super low-beams as DRLs for that TL. Doesn't look luxurious at all.

Hard to find a good pic but:


Old 04-13-2017, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by oonowindoo
For some reason, on the Mercs, it looks luxury and on Acura, it looks cheap
that's cuz they LITERALLY threw that shit on the TLX
Old 04-13-2017, 01:26 PM
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But gotta give them props tho.... we all thought Acura could not do any worse than the Beak..... i think they just proved us all wrong.

I keep on looking at the 4G TL beak, it does not look bad to me anymore. i mean, yah not bad at all....
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