iforyou

iTrader: (1)

lol but that's an opinion...as someone pointed out.....just like some people don't like the front end of newer audi's (took me awhile to get used to it....)...

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

How was the previous, palatable 5 point grill not a unified design?
















All of Acuras products post 2001, save the RSX and RL, had the (A) emblem dead center with small "wings" protruding from the (A). That was an elegant design.

Tacking a chunky plastic bar across the top of the grill =/= elegant, or in this case, even remotely attractive.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Not saying if Honda is right or wrong....but I guess to Honda, the previous design didn't stand out enough....?

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

If they truly thought that, they werent looking at sales figures, or they are just too stubborn to admit they made a mistake and refuse to fix it.

ttribe

Of course it's an opinion. You seem to be missing the point. It's not that just a couple of knucklehead enthusiasts hate the design, it's that the market has spoken and said, collectively, "That design stinks!" How did the "market" communicate that? Decreased sales, that's how.

pttl

Based on the comments in the article...THIS is the true problem at H/A.

btw...fanboys opinions are dubious at best. By definition, they just can't see the problems that exist in "their" brand.

Legend2TL

Admitting one was wrong can also give the wrong impression in the business world.

BMW with the Bangle designs didn't change back to the previous approach with the huge styling uproar over the 2000's BMW sedan's.

pttl

It can also give the RIGHT impression, and restore faith in a brand or product.

Again...all this doesn't matter...as H/A has spoken.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Because they knew they would sell based on cache of the brand alone.

Acura does not have that luxury. (pun-intended)

ttribe

That's because the MARKET spoke again - they sold the Bangle designs in droves. IIRC, the E60 was the best selling 5-series EVER.

Legend2TL

But also not during a financial crisis as well, so I blame part of Acura's downfall in sales (ie 4G TL) on the desgin, the global economic crisis also greatly affected virtually every auto manufacturer to some extent.

I've never seen the 5 sereis sales numbers so I'll have to Google them, I really loved the E39 styling.

ttribe

I'm sorry, but you can't lay blame for the entirety of Acura's financial decline at the feet of the crisis. Every car company had to weather that crisis, so you throw that variable out; it affected all manufacturers.


Sales data here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_5_Series

Just from a quick scan of the data, the E60 was outselling the E39.

Edward'TLS

First thing, first.

Bad design has to be fixed later.

But first, an unified Acura signature grille will fix the brand image and brand recognition deficiencies.

With a bunch of non-unified Acura grilles, the Acura brand was like a conglomerate of run-of-the-mill labeled vehicles with incomprehensible brand identity, that only economy auto brands can get away with.


They are missing that giant top rectangle bar which encloses the Acura logo, inside the 6-point grille.

Legend2TL

Read my posting, I never wrote the economic crisis was the sole reason.

Interesting sales data as I would have thought the E39 would have been better.

Legend2TL

Depends, H/A have come out and said they have been on the wrong track lately which I think is good since it was pretty obvious.

On the styling cue, that's highly subjective. I prefer the 3G grill but the latest models have toned down the size and presence of the grill and it looks better.

I take it you don't care for it?

Legend2TL

Yep, IMO BMW's reputation and overall product were good enough for people to overlook the Bangle exterior styling and iDrive.

ttribe

Let's see if I have this straight - unity of appearance is more important than quality of appearance, so get everything unified under the same bad design, then change the design? Are you serious?

pttl

VTEC Racer

Despite Acura's claim of "not willing to buckle", they already have. If they weren't willing to buckle, they wouldn't have changed the grill at all. As it stands, the grill has already been modified two times since the initial debut in 2008. First with the TSX MMC, TL MMC, and RL 2.5 MMC, and second with the 2013 ILX and RDX. So in less than four years, we've already seen three different versions of the grill. That's quick for the auto industry in general, let alone Honda.

So despite what the article is saying, they've heard what the consumer has said and made changes. There would have been zero changes if they weren't listening. Not willing to buckle most likely refers to getting rid of the grill entirely. I remember when Audi was under the same pressure. After a few years of refinement, I barely hear anyone saying anything about it now.

Edward'TLS

Yes, the Acura signature grille is more important, and is the easiest to fix up.

Just nail down one final grille design and use it in all Acura vehicles.

The only hideous looking "Power Plenum" is now history.

Even the current signature grilles are evolving little by little. Just compare the 2012 TL Hexagon grille with the 2013 RDX one.

But bad car designs can only be dealt with in individual full model cycle updates.

ttribe

If the grill is so easy to change, why not change it and unify at the same time? I'm just following this apologetic spin you're putting on this.

NwTSXmt

what rep?...repair bills/slower fatter....The sheep out there want their cars watered down and to all look alike..except for headlights you cant tell a beamer, kia, lexus from a hyundia (spelling)...just saying...

NwTSXmt

yep the pansies folded and soften up the TL with the girly looking 2012 version

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

So true, I have a hard time telling an Elantra apart from an 335.

/red text

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I thought that's what the article is about - they said they went overboard...? Isn't that admitting they made a mistake?

And from what I've seen, since the first power plenum grille design came out in 2008, several noticeable changes have already been made. How is that "refusing to fix it"?

When they say they won't "buckle under the pressure," I don't think they are saying that they won't make a single change to the design. It means that they will continue to go with the power plenum, but refinements will be made.

Hmm, I'm talking about the refined design(s), as seen on newer Acura models such as the ILX and RDX. People hate the original design (especially on the 4g TL), but people seem to be accepting the newer designs now (ILX, RDX).

pttl

Accepting the design? Not really. If someone has their mind set on an ack, what are they supposed to do? Oh...i forgot....I do see a lot of acks with customized grilles.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I think the customized grilles are mostly found on the 4g TL? I haven't seen any other recent Acura's with customized grilles such as facelifted MDX, RDX, TSX, etc. Looking at the sales chart, the newer grilles seem to be working fine for the TSX and MDX.

TSX in 2005: 34856
TSX in 2006: 38035
TSX in 2007: 33037
TSX in 2008: 31998
TSX in 2009: 28650
TSX in 2010: 32076
TSX in 2011: 30935

TSX has been quite consistent over the years. There's a significant decrease in sales in both 2007 and 2009. I'm not sure what caused the 2007 decrease, but I'd imagine the car was getting old by 2007. 2009 decrease is most likely due to the financial downturn, as the sales went back up to pre-downturn level by 2010. I don't think the grille has had too much of an effect here.


MDX in 2005: 57948
MDX in 2006: 54121
MDX in 2007: 58606
MDX in 2008: 45377
MDX in 2009: 31178
MDX in 2010: 47210
MDX in 2011: 43271

Consistently over 50k a year before 2008. 2007 was the MMC year and there's a slight gain. Financial downturn caused problems in 2008 and especially in 2009. Facelifted model, WITH the new grille design, came out in 2010. Sales immediately went back up significantly. Of course, that is also due to the better economy.

TL in 2005: 78218
TL in 2006: 71348
TL in 2007: 58545
TL in 2008: 46766
TL in 2009: 33620
TL in 2010: 34049
TL in 2011: 31237

We all know the 3G TL was a success as it was a good design with great value. Not only that, the competition was not that good at that time when the car came out. However, in 2007, several new competitors got MMC, namely, IS, 3 series, and C class. We can immediately see the effect on the 3G TL. Before the 4G came out, the TL sales were falling quite badly. From over 70k to less than 60k, and then from almost 60k to mid 40's by the end of the life cycle. 4G TL came out, it got a controversial grille, that's not good for sales. Combined that fact with bad economy in 2009, and sales went to the 30k level. If anything, the TL is pretty much the only car that has been affected by the grille significantly.

RDX in 2005: -
RDX in 2006: 9164
RDX in 2007: 23356
RDX in 2008: 15845
RDX in 2009: 10153
RDX in 2010: 14975
RDX in 2011: 15196

The sales trend of the RDX is similar to TSX and MDX except in a smaller scale. the RDX was never a popular car to begin with. New grille didn't hurt sales. One might argue the sales went up because of an extra FWD model and the economy got better in 2010. However, the RDX by 2010 was getting pretty old which should lead to sales decrease.

Edward'TLS

No worry, I have the patience. Let me explain.

The Acura signature grille has been changing over the years, and now the final design is done, and the Acura vehicles can all be unified with this final-version Acura grille.

No matter how this Acura grille looks like or how many times Acura changes the grille design, a small batch of people will always disagree with the design. After all, it is impossible to please everyone in this world.

As long as it doesn't look like that hideous '09 TL "Power Plenum" with which Acura authorized dealerships were offering to new TL buyers a custom paint job option to cover it up, then Acura can consider it a job well done.

The most important part is to stay focus and stay firm. Nail down the final grille design and stick to it no matter what.

Just like the current "drop jaw" Audi signature grille, some people didn't like it initially. But Audi persisted and applied the unified grille on all Audi vehicles. And now, people can identify an Audi simply by it's signature grille.

The "Predator" Lexus signature grille is coming up next. As usual, some find it odd looking. But Lexus is applying it in all upcoming Lexus vehicles, no matter what this small batch of people think about.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I agree. However, is the final power plenum design done? Or will we see further changes (perhaps more subtle)?

Edward'TLS

^^^^^

By comparing the front grilles of the 2013 ILX, 2013 RDX, RLX concept, and NSX concept, it should give us a fairly good indication of how final the Acura signature grille is.

Will we see more changes ? No body knows except Honda.

F23A4

ttribe

I am, quite frankly, stunned at the silliness of this reasoning.

Costco

Thanks for posting up those figures, interesting.

Personally I feel like the pre-MMC 4G TL was hit the hardest with the ugly stick thanks in part to the beak. The front end simply had no "good side" to it, it was just bad from all angles.

I like the TSX and MDX much more with the newer grilles they sport, though the rest of the cars depend on each person.

I would also like to see BMW and Lexus sales numbers throughout the same years.

Edward'TLS

Like it or not. This is what Acura's planning to do, for now.

ttribe

Which is one of the reasons I am so critical of them right now.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

That makes sense. IMO, the original power plenum was way overboard. The newer ones are much easier on my eyes and I actually think it looks good on the ILX, TSX, and RDX. I think it stands out much more than the previous simple 5-point corporate grille design. I suspect not many people knew the 5-point design was a corporate design...lol....

You are welcome

It also doesn't help when the 3G TL was such a good looking car. There's a huge contrast.

Now someone go get the numbers for Lexus and BMW!

pttl

Which is one of the reasons I took my $$$ elsewhere.

ttribe

Same here...last two cars as a matter of fact.

winstrolvtec

I see the data present itself in the same way you do. Based on what we can interpret from the info, the TL is the only vehicle that makes the case for being significantly hit for controversial styling or grill. However, the entire Acura grill/styling theme situation just does not appear to be nearly as controversial with real world, everyday consumer bases, more likely it's the internet forums that generate most of the noise, that's not to say it is only a few small groups and therefore doesn't mean anything, just that there is a difference which I think we can all identify.

When Acura applied the previous corporate grill theme to the MDX and RDX MMC's, sales increased substantially. Now that's not necessarily because of the grill but it doesn't appear to have hurt anything. Considering the economic downturn, the TSX still held relatively steady, suggesting a portion of previous TL generation market slightly shifting to the current TSX. Sizes and price points, engines and equipment, in addition to the intro of a lower positioned ILX in favor of the TSX, further compliments that.

What affect the styling may have had on the TL is still largely overblown IMO, not only based on these figures but in addition to some other industry sales data as well. What points to a rough 50% decline in sales over 3G TL peak years is not to all be attributed to the styling, it can't possibly be when there are several other major factors going on.

The reality is that even the class leading 3 series having had an MMC and a new model generation intro in that same time span is still down over 30% compared to peak years, similarly. Since there is and was no controversy over at BMW, that decline is entirely economic as well as positional with the 1 series having been added in that time frame. What we are begining to see with the MMC TL, is Acura regaining that 10-20% decline that is probably more accurately attributed to the design.

That's not to say the data can only be interpreted this way as there is lots of info we can't get or determine from this but I think more to the point, is that there is a distinction between a simple personally based opinion and a factually based one.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Definitely agree with all of your points there, winstrolvtec.

I didn't know there was a 30% drop for the 3 series. It's still the best selling in the segment though!

I guess we will find out how well the MMC TL does by the end of this year to gauge the response on the design.