biker

Until we figure out that we can't have 4 sedans.

Costco

I seem to have missed that. TSX and ILX in the same lineup?

vybzkartel

Lets just assume that when the Euro/JDM Accord gets its FMC, there won't be an Acura version.

So in essence, there will be 4 sedans when the ILX debuts.

biker

That's the point - according to Conrad, there will be.

dom

Interesting.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

sort of like Audi eh? A3 sedan, A4 sedan, A6 sedan, A8 sedan...?

Legend2TL

+1

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

It's about time they have each car competing in the right category..

Edward'TLS

Interesting logic from Honda that the lower-priced, entry-level compact Acura was shelved due to bad economy six years back. It was the expensive RL sedan that should be shelved then.

When the economy went sour six years ago, there should be more of a demand for a smaller sized and lower priced entry-level Acura, than for a $50K top-line sedan ( the RL) that nobody wants even in the good old days.

dom

But they will have to move the RL up to a A8 class car, TL to A6 etc... We'll see. Right now there is far too much overlap in the lineup. If they're keeping the TSX around I would imagine it becomes V6 only.

Moog-Type-S

They are all about the same size.

bolster our sedans eh?

How about a coupe? Nope!
How about a roadster/convertible? Nope!

ttribe

The way they've grown these cars in size, etc., the logical thing would be as follows:

ILX replaces TSX in compact slot

TSX gets V6 only, and additional goodies to move into mid-size slot abandoned by TL

TL moves into Full-size slot

RL SUBTANTIALLY redesigned and made into a real flagship to go against the 7/A8/S

NSX for Halo

RDX and MDX for SUV

Kill the ZDX

Develop a legitimate sport tourer (perhaps in both coupe and roadster form).

F23A4

I'm very happy to hear that they're keeping the TSX and it should continue to offer both a V6 and four cylinder in its next iteration. (If I didnt need a little more rear seat and trunk space, I would likely have opted for a base TSX over my 12 Accord EX.)

Honestly, if there's any overlap, it's between the TL and RL.

with Moog; it'd be nice to see a coupe in the lineup....preferably not another Integra/RSX though.

phile

this actually makes me anxious for the 3G TSX. Hope they can spill over the fluid design from the ILX to the sharply chiseled TSX.

Costco

I guess they'll have the TSX starting around $32k then? And the TL around $38k? RL at $50k+?

At least this is potentially a sign that they're serious about moving on up in the status department.

MuGen7Modulo

Very happy for the TSX!!
So now will be JDM designers with RL and TSX vs USDM designers with TL an ILX. Interesting... but nothing beats Made in Japan.

TSX69

Not sure where to put this but it is kind of marketing for Acura so please move if moderators feel that it is inappropriate:

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iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Totally agree

Edward'TLS

If the RL is to pit against the 7/A8/S, then the "full sized" TL will automatically has to pit against the 5/A6/E. A substantial price increase is assured for the TL, in order to raise the luxury content/feature to the 5/A6/E level.

But then who will buy this eventual $50K TL ? I won't myself.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Or they could go back to being "smart luxury" and offer similar features at a better price

And if you think about that plan, technically the TSX is what you'd consider the TL as, the TL = RL and the RL = a new segment for them.

If you wont buy a $50k TL, would you buy a $50k RL? There really isnt that big of a jump between the two vehicles the way they are now.

ttribe

If that's the case, then Acura needs to set its competitive sights on Lincoln, et al., not BMW/MB, etc. Unfortunately, that's not what they keep telling everyone.

Indeed. The 4G TL with SH-AWD left almost no reason to consider an RL.

Costco

I agree, I have no clue what the RL is doing in their lineup at the moment. It seems just like a luxury version of the TL SH-AWD, offering a few exclusive features, better materials, but not much else.

But we can't really say until we see the next RL. 5-10 years ago, who would have thought Hyundai is where they are now? I'm being optimistic here, but yeah.... I don't see any other way possibly if they plan to keep four different sedans. Otherwise it will be a futile exercise... they'll have models that cannibalize each others' sales, resulting in not many more overall sales.

Edward'TLS

Once again, it's back to the V8/RWD stories.

Hyundai has gained a lot of fame and recognition with it's V8 RWD Genesis sedan line (and soon also the Equus), especially when coupled with a bargain-like price tag. It has also help stretching the Hyundai price ceiling way upwards with it's top-of-the-line Genesis family.

Likewise, who would have thought 25 years ago, that Acura would still be as stagnant as where it is now, while Lexus has succeeded with it's true luxury status with available V8 and RWD for customer to choose from.

Also for information, the words "Smart Luxury" is also being used to depict the 2012 Equus inside the current Hyundai website.

Does it mean Acura is now competing with Hyundai !?

http://www.hyundaicanada.com/Pages/s...px?model=Equus

AZuser

4 sedans?

biker

The thing is, if Acura does succeed in getting to the 180K sales/yr level, they don't care how they do it. They just care about sales and profit. If its with 4 sedans that cannibalize each other it doesn't matter. With the ILX, it's obvious they are branching out in some new niche segment (with the Verano). The other vehicles could follow and may not line up as competitors in some already recognized category.

phile

I think it's the other way around. Hyundai has always targeted premium brands in a bid to establish itself. And I don't think it's squarely aiming at Acura, per se. And logically speaking, the Equus competes with a sedan that Acura does not have. It's 7-series/L-Series/A8/S-Class competitor. at least that's what Hyundai would lead you to believe.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

For Lexus, it's more than just having V8 and RWD. Look at Infiniti, they also had V8 and RWD back then, and their brand recognition isn't any better than Acura. V8 and RWD are part of the package, but there are also other important "ingredients" to establish a luxury brand.

Edward'TLS

^^^^ Agree.

Having V8 and RWD doesn't necessarily guarantee automatic success to become a luxury brand, but not having V8 and RWD will definitely guarantee a failure to become one.

Despite having both V8 and RWD, Infiniti flopped due to it's unconventional exterior styling and sub-par interior amenities with it's 1G Q45.

A big sedan with no grille was difficult to be associated with a true luxury sedan; whereas the LS400, sporting the MB lookalike grille and front end, was selling like hotcakes and building fame for the Lexus brand.

Infiniti later corrected this mistake and released the 2G Q45 with a front grille, but it was too late. The initial image for the Q series and the Infiniti brand were too ruined to be resurrected, until the current decade with the debuts of the SUV's and the G series.

Meanwhile, both of the Hyundai "premium" car lines (Genesis and Equus) have a close resemblance to the big MB sedans, especially the front end with giant grilles. Doesn't this ring a bell about how important it is with exterior styling in the "luxury" car business ?

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Yea, another problem with Acura was like, it was established as a more prestigious brand than Honda. I don't think Honda set its sight to make Acura a luxury brand - unlike what Toyota did to Lexus. Acura was just both sportier and more luxurious than Honda. They didn't go far enough. The NSX introduction made Acura a sportier brand. But then Honda didn't update the NSX often enough and the sporty image also faded away....things certainly didn't improve when they changed their model naming system along with their mediocre products (1g RL, 1g TL, 1g CL, SLX, etc). By that time, Lexus was already well established. It was too late for Acura.

Edward'TLS

In last year's "Acura 25th anniversary celebration" press release, Honda itself said that the Acura division was created to challenge the leading European luxury brands of the day, which were BMW and MB and maybe Audi too. So there is hardly any doubt about the INITIAL (not current) targets that Acura was aiming for.

The lack of V8 and RWD was one major reason why Acura has failed to become a recognized luxury brand even after 25 years in existence. Honda eventually knew this shortcoming, and this was exactly the initiative that drove Honda to begin developing both V8 and RWD for Acura applications just before the economy meltdown.

http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/ar...spx?id=5958-en

SSFTSX

It seems there will be 4 sedans.
It will be wiser to introduce that 1.6L diesel in next TSX as it is developed for EuroAccord anyway. simply lighter than Hybrid with more torque and better handling.

VTEC Racer

Putting up a challenge is not the same as fighting eye to eye. Acura has always served as an intercept brand, meant to offer 90% of the European offerings at a substantially lower price. The whole tier 1 attempt lasted about 1.5 years from announcement to cancellation. Aspiring to be a tier 1 brand was Acura forgetting what they were really all about, which has lead to products that look like the pre-mmc 4g TL and ZDX.

Acura's brand perception was very high in the 90's, and they did that by building good cars, with no RWD or V8 in sight. Maybe it can get there again but the whole idea of needing a V8 and RWD is beating a dead horse.

pttl

Things have changed a bit since the 90's.

VTEC Racer

That's why I used the word "was", as in the past, or at one time, etc...

dom

Thought this was in the thread, guess not.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/2012...n=awdailydrive

Looks like the TSX isn't going anywhere.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

No doubt, they wanted to challenge those European brands for sure. Even though they didn't go all the way with things like V8 and RWD, the Legend and NSX were successful in lifting Acura's image quite high...may be not as high as those European brands, but probably on par with Lexus. But Lexus kept progressing..but Acura...their products were horrible when 1g RL, 1G TL, etc came out....

Edward'TLS

^^^^^

Honda's intention to set its sight to make Acura a luxury brand at the very onset is undeniable. Only when Honda realized that this goal was unachievable and when the V8/RWD programs couldn't materialize, then Honda was forced to revise down it's goal not to make Acura a luxury brand.

When Honda engineered the Acura brand to challenge the leading European luxury brands 25 years ago, it meant that Honda had wanted the Acura brand to be one day recognized as a true luxury brand, like BMW and MB, right from the beginning; exactly like what Toyota wanted Lexus to become.

The only difference in outcome is that Acura has failed, but Lexus has succeeded.

VTEC Racer

That doesn't make any sense. Acura had the greatest brand perception when it was selling nothing but FWD 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder cars. It was a very desirable brand in the mid 90's and it built that desirability building cars that were the complete opposite of what the true luxury brands (BMW/MB) at the time were. Acura has always touted itself as being a good value. True luxury has never been about value, which is exactly what Acura is all about.

It's very common for brands to indicate their main competitors to be something that is actually in a class above. It's no different than Hyundai comparing the Genesis with the 5-series. Should we assume that Hyundai is striving to be a tier 1 brand like BMW?

Acura is aware of what it takes to be a tier 1 luxury brand. This is why when, for the first time ever, in 2008 they announced their goal to elevate the brand to tier 1 status, we shortly saw test mules sporting RWD, were told a V10 was in the works, and a V8 was also rumored to be in development. These are the things Acura was developing to meet that goal. If Acura's intention was to compete with MB and BMW from the start in 1986, don't you think they would have at least had RWD and V8 at or shortly after their debut?

Acura has always been about being the intercept brand and only in 2008 did they try to change that, until the shit hit the fan. We got cars like the pre-mmc 4G TL and ZDX as a result of that announcement but it is clear that Acura is going back to what made Acura in the first place.

Ken1997TL

Lets not fool ourselves with exaggerated tales.

Acura has never been a luxury brand. It has been an excellent PREMIUM brand that happened to offer an exotic performance car.

The Legend was a great car, a premium sedan that was very well engineered and offered a lot for the money. It certainly did push the competition to do better. But Acura never offered anything to compete with the large luxury sedans.

And this was 20 years ago. Things have changed, Acura as a brand has not. Its vehicles are still relatively in the same categories and have never been excessive. And excess is part of luxury.

Edward'TLS

Let me dissect the above quotation surgically.

Honda created Acura as a LUXURY-PERFORMANCE nameplate, and "luxury nameplate" meant luxury nameplate. I don't see how "luxury nameplate" can have different meanings. The luxury nameplates at that time was BMW and MB.

Also in the quotation, Honda used "cars" and not "car", meaning that Honda engineered the entire Acura division to challenge BMW's and MB's of the day.

Hyundai Motor Co. has and will never said it created Hyundai as a LUXURY nameplate, but Honda did with it's Acura brand. Hyundai may want to compare it's top-line cars such as the Genesis/Equus with the 5-series, but this is far from the same as engineering the entire Acura division to challenge the true luxury brands as Honda has said.

If Hyundai is to create a LUXURY division tomorrow with the V8/RWD Genesis/Equus in it's stable, I dare say that this luxo division will have more success in becoming a recognized luxury brand 5-10 years down the road than with Acura even after 25 years.

Hyundai's shortcoming is the lack of a luxury nameplate, and Acura's shortcoming is the lack of V8/RWD hardware.

Speaking about value. A new product or a new brand, that is untried and unproven, must be given a bargain price tag in order to attach buyers otherwise won't have ventured in. Even Lexus is no exception with it's $40K 1st generation V8/RWD LS400 back in 1989. It was definitely rated good value too. Lexus didn't become a luxury brand in one day, it was a lengthy process. The bargain-priced 1G V8/RWD LS400 was well received and well praised. Then Lexus raised it's vehicle price tags gradually and established it's luxury image steadily.

The reason why Acura failed was because Honda had overestimated it's products and failed to understand buyers' mindset. Back 25 years ago, Honda had claimed that it's V6 could rival the V8 of the time, so there was no need to develop anything bigger than 6 cylinders. But wrong.

Even though V6 was sufficient in the Asian markets, North Americans in particular were used to associate luxury cars with RWD and V8 engine options. North American loved torque; lots and lots of torque; and this was one thing that V6 engines couldn't provide. Thus score 1 to Lexus, and zero to Acura.

Honda had also made the same downfall with it's Accord sedan back in the 90's. It continuously refused to give the Accord a V6 engine option year after year, even though buyers asked for one and it's major competition (Camry) already long had one, because Honda once again claimed it's I4 was just as powerful as it's competitor's V6.

Likewise, North American loved torque that V6 could generate, but I4 couldn't. So Honda was rewarded by losing massive sales to the V6 Camry's. Honda finally bowed down to lost sales, and had to spend massive resources to quickly shoehorn a Legend V6 into the lengthened engine bay of the 5G Accord in order to rescue sales.

So when Honda finally woke up and realized that the Acura brand wasn't moving up towards the luxury image due to the lack of V8/RWD, then it authorized the V8/RWD programs to remedy it's hardware shortcomings. The V10 NSX was also an excellent tool to build up the much needed brand image. But very unfortunate that the economy meltdown had ruined it all for Acura.

Anyhow, it's good that there is one point we all agree on. We all agree that V8 and RWD are needed by Acura in order to compete with BMW and MB.

If Acura is able to compete with BMW and MB, it will eventually be recognized as a true luxury brand, just like the path that Lexus took.