Acura: Sales, Marketing, and Financial News
04-02-2012, 12:56 AM
#1841
Let me dissect the above quotation surgically.
Honda created Acura as a LUXURY-PERFORMANCE nameplate, and "luxury nameplate" meant luxury nameplate. I don't see how "luxury nameplate" can have different meanings. The luxury nameplates at that time was BMW and MB.
Also in the quotation, Honda used "cars" and not "car", meaning that Honda engineered the entire Acura division to challenge BMW's and MB's of the day.
Hyundai Motor Co. has and will never said it created Hyundai as a LUXURY nameplate, but Honda did with it's Acura brand. Hyundai may want to compare it's top-line cars such as the Genesis/Equus with the 5-series, but this is far from the same as engineering the entire Acura division to challenge the true luxury brands as Honda has said.
If Hyundai is to create a LUXURY division tomorrow with the V8/RWD Genesis/Equus in it's stable, I dare say that this luxo division will have more success in becoming a recognized luxury brand 5-10 years down the road than with Acura even after 25 years.
Hyundai's shortcoming is the lack of a luxury nameplate, and Acura's shortcoming is the lack of V8/RWD hardware.
Speaking about value. A new product or a new brand, that is untried and unproven, must be given a bargain price tag in order to attach buyers otherwise won't have ventured in. Even Lexus is no exception with it's $40K 1st generation V8/RWD LS400 back in 1989. It was definitely rated good value too. Lexus didn't become a luxury brand in one day, it was a lengthy process. The bargain-priced 1G V8/RWD LS400 was well received and well praised. Then Lexus raised it's vehicle price tags gradually and established it's luxury image steadily.
The reason why Acura failed was because Honda had overestimated it's products and failed to understand buyers' mindset. Back 25 years ago, Honda had claimed that it's V6 could rival the V8 of the time, so there was no need to develop anything bigger than 6 cylinders. But wrong.
Even though V6 was sufficient in the Asian markets, North Americans in particular were used to associate luxury cars with RWD and V8 engine options. North American loved torque; lots and lots of torque; and this was one thing that V6 engines couldn't provide. Thus score 1 to Lexus, and zero to Acura.
Honda had also made the same downfall with it's Accord sedan back in the 90's. It continuously refused to give the Accord a V6 engine option year after year, even though buyers asked for one and it's major competition (Camry) already long had one, because Honda once again claimed it's I4 was just as powerful as it's competitor's V6.
Likewise, North American loved torque that V6 could generate, but I4 couldn't. So Honda was rewarded by losing massive sales to the V6 Camry's. Honda finally bowed down to lost sales, and had to spend massive resources to quickly shoehorn a Legend V6 into the lengthened engine bay of the 5G Accord in order to rescue sales.
So when Honda finally woke up and realized that the Acura brand wasn't moving up towards the luxury image due to the lack of V8/RWD, then it authorized the V8/RWD programs to remedy it's hardware shortcomings. The V10 NSX was also an excellent tool to build up the much needed brand image. But very unfortunate that the economy meltdown had ruined it all for Acura.
Anyhow, it's good that there is one point we all agree on. We all agree that V8 and RWD are needed by Acura in order to compete with BMW and MB.
If Acura is able to compete with BMW and MB, it will eventually be recognized as a true luxury brand, just like the path that Lexus took.
Honda created Acura as a LUXURY-PERFORMANCE nameplate, and "luxury nameplate" meant luxury nameplate. I don't see how "luxury nameplate" can have different meanings. The luxury nameplates at that time was BMW and MB.
Also in the quotation, Honda used "cars" and not "car", meaning that Honda engineered the entire Acura division to challenge BMW's and MB's of the day.
Hyundai Motor Co. has and will never said it created Hyundai as a LUXURY nameplate, but Honda did with it's Acura brand. Hyundai may want to compare it's top-line cars such as the Genesis/Equus with the 5-series, but this is far from the same as engineering the entire Acura division to challenge the true luxury brands as Honda has said.
If Hyundai is to create a LUXURY division tomorrow with the V8/RWD Genesis/Equus in it's stable, I dare say that this luxo division will have more success in becoming a recognized luxury brand 5-10 years down the road than with Acura even after 25 years.
Hyundai's shortcoming is the lack of a luxury nameplate, and Acura's shortcoming is the lack of V8/RWD hardware.
Speaking about value. A new product or a new brand, that is untried and unproven, must be given a bargain price tag in order to attach buyers otherwise won't have ventured in. Even Lexus is no exception with it's $40K 1st generation V8/RWD LS400 back in 1989. It was definitely rated good value too. Lexus didn't become a luxury brand in one day, it was a lengthy process. The bargain-priced 1G V8/RWD LS400 was well received and well praised. Then Lexus raised it's vehicle price tags gradually and established it's luxury image steadily.
The reason why Acura failed was because Honda had overestimated it's products and failed to understand buyers' mindset. Back 25 years ago, Honda had claimed that it's V6 could rival the V8 of the time, so there was no need to develop anything bigger than 6 cylinders. But wrong.
Even though V6 was sufficient in the Asian markets, North Americans in particular were used to associate luxury cars with RWD and V8 engine options. North American loved torque; lots and lots of torque; and this was one thing that V6 engines couldn't provide. Thus score 1 to Lexus, and zero to Acura.
Honda had also made the same downfall with it's Accord sedan back in the 90's. It continuously refused to give the Accord a V6 engine option year after year, even though buyers asked for one and it's major competition (Camry) already long had one, because Honda once again claimed it's I4 was just as powerful as it's competitor's V6.
Likewise, North American loved torque that V6 could generate, but I4 couldn't. So Honda was rewarded by losing massive sales to the V6 Camry's. Honda finally bowed down to lost sales, and had to spend massive resources to quickly shoehorn a Legend V6 into the lengthened engine bay of the 5G Accord in order to rescue sales.
So when Honda finally woke up and realized that the Acura brand wasn't moving up towards the luxury image due to the lack of V8/RWD, then it authorized the V8/RWD programs to remedy it's hardware shortcomings. The V10 NSX was also an excellent tool to build up the much needed brand image. But very unfortunate that the economy meltdown had ruined it all for Acura.
Anyhow, it's good that there is one point we all agree on. We all agree that V8 and RWD are needed by Acura in order to compete with BMW and MB.
If Acura is able to compete with BMW and MB, it will eventually be recognized as a true luxury brand, just like the path that Lexus took.
In the Acura range there are cars still sold with a 5AT, even in the last 2013 ILX! when even Hyundai went to 8 speed... no double clutch Trans, no direct injection engines, no diesel engines (except Honda in EU) or hybrid engines...
The only really leading technology in the last few years that they offered on the market was the Sh-AWD. In a car, the RL, that was overpriced.
04-02-2012, 01:30 AM
#1842
Doesnt look like V8/RWD is coming any point at all for Acura 
They got alot riding on this e-ShAwd shit.
They got alot riding on this e-ShAwd shit.
04-02-2012, 10:52 AM
#1843
Moderator
04-02-2012, 02:08 PM
#1844
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^^^^^
Honda's intention to set its sight to make Acura a luxury brand at the very onset is undeniable. Only when Honda realized that this goal was unachievable and when the V8/RWD programs couldn't materialize, then Honda was forced to revise down it's goal not to make Acura a luxury brand.
When Honda engineered the Acura brand to challenge the leading European luxury brands 25 years ago, it meant that Honda had wanted the Acura brand to be one day recognized as a true luxury brand, like BMW and MB, right from the beginning; exactly like what Toyota wanted Lexus to become.
The only difference in outcome is that Acura has failed, but Lexus has succeeded.
Honda's intention to set its sight to make Acura a luxury brand at the very onset is undeniable. Only when Honda realized that this goal was unachievable and when the V8/RWD programs couldn't materialize, then Honda was forced to revise down it's goal not to make Acura a luxury brand.
When Honda engineered the Acura brand to challenge the leading European luxury brands 25 years ago, it meant that Honda had wanted the Acura brand to be one day recognized as a true luxury brand, like BMW and MB, right from the beginning; exactly like what Toyota wanted Lexus to become.
The only difference in outcome is that Acura has failed, but Lexus has succeeded.
04-03-2012, 06:44 AM
#1845
Safety Car
Avengers
2 new tie-in ads by Acura and Target have been released for Marvel's The Avengers and you can watch them using the players below! The Acura 1 gives you a brief closer look at the creature or ship that was featured at the end of the last trailer.
Also, be sure to visit SHIELDOps.com for Acura's S.H.I.E.L.D. microsite.
Opening in theaters on May 4, the Joss Whedon action adventure stars Robert Downey Jr., Chris Evans, Mark Ruffalo, Chris Hemsworth, Scarlett Johansson, Jeremy Renner, Tom Hiddleston, Stellan Skarsgård and Samuel L. Jackson.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FemM...Txk9UrmQ4VE%3D
04-03-2012, 06:51 AM
#1846
Safety Car
MicroSite
Serving as the hub of a plot-based campaign, Acura has officially activated a SHIELDops microsite in anticipation for Marvel's The Avengers. Offering games and prizes, check it out!
DCMarvelFreshman - 4/2/2012
Following the marketing campaign that kicked off with THOR last year, Acura, the official vehicle of S.H.I.E.L.D., has now activated a SHIELDops microsite in anticipation for Marvel's The Avengers.
S.H.I.E.L.D. has returned in Marvel’s upcoming movie The Avengers, and they’ve brought a new fleet of high powered Acura vehicles to battle evil. Visit SHIELDops.com to find out what these futuristic Acura models have in their arsenal and play along for a chance to win some awesome Acura/Avengers prizes. Prizes include a 1:43 scale Acura Supercar and a “Tony Stark Experience” trip to New York. Visit SHIELDops.com today to find out more!
Marvel Studios presents in association with Paramount Pictures “Marvel’s The Avengers”--the super hero team up of a lifetime, featuring iconic Marvel super heroes Iron Man, the Incredible Hulk, Thor, Captain America, Hawkeye and Black Widow. When an unexpected enemy emerges that threatens global safety and security, Nick Fury, Director of the international peacekeeping agency known as S.H.I.E.L.D., finds himself in need of a team to pull the world back from the brink of disaster. Spanning the globe, a daring recruitment effort begins.
Starring Robert Downey, Jr., Chris Evans, Mark Ruffalo, Chris Hemsworth, Scarlett Johansson, Jeremy Renner and Samuel L. Jackson, & directed by Joss Whedon from a screenplay by Joss Whedon, “Marvel’s The Avengers” is based on the ever-popular Marvel comic book series “The Avengers,” 1st published in 1963 and a comics institution ever since. Prepare yourself for an exciting event movie, packed with action and spectacular special effects, when “Marvel’s The Avengers” assemble on May 4, 2012. The film is distributed by Walt Disney Studios Motion Pictures. In addition to "Marvel's The Avengers," Marvel Studios will release a slate of films based on the Marvel characters including "Iron Man 3" on May 3, 2013!; and “Thor 2” on November 15, 2013.
Last edited by TSX69; 04-03-2012 at 07:04 AM.
04-07-2012, 02:21 AM
#1847
Honda Fanboy
Let me dissect the above quotation surgically.
Honda created Acura as a LUXURY-PERFORMANCE nameplate, and "luxury nameplate" meant luxury nameplate. I don't see how "luxury nameplate" can have different meanings. The luxury nameplates at that time was BMW and MB.
Also in the quotation, Honda used "cars" and not "car", meaning that Honda engineered the entire Acura division to challenge BMW's and MB's of the day.
Hyundai Motor Co. has and will never said it created Hyundai as a LUXURY nameplate, but Honda did with it's Acura brand. Hyundai may want to compare it's top-line cars such as the Genesis/Equus with the 5-series, but this is far from the same as engineering the entire Acura division to challenge the true luxury brands as Honda has said.
If Hyundai is to create a LUXURY division tomorrow with the V8/RWD Genesis/Equus in it's stable, I dare say that this luxo division will have more success in becoming a recognized luxury brand 5-10 years down the road than with Acura even after 25 years.
Hyundai's shortcoming is the lack of a luxury nameplate, and Acura's shortcoming is the lack of V8/RWD hardware.
Speaking about value. A new product or a new brand, that is untried and unproven, must be given a bargain price tag in order to attach buyers otherwise won't have ventured in. Even Lexus is no exception with it's $40K 1st generation V8/RWD LS400 back in 1989. It was definitely rated good value too. Lexus didn't become a luxury brand in one day, it was a lengthy process. The bargain-priced 1G V8/RWD LS400 was well received and well praised. Then Lexus raised it's vehicle price tags gradually and established it's luxury image steadily.
The reason why Acura failed was because Honda had overestimated it's products and failed to understand buyers' mindset. Back 25 years ago, Honda had claimed that it's V6 could rival the V8 of the time, so there was no need to develop anything bigger than 6 cylinders. But wrong.
Even though V6 was sufficient in the Asian markets, North Americans in particular were used to associate luxury cars with RWD and V8 engine options. North American loved torque; lots and lots of torque; and this was one thing that V6 engines couldn't provide. Thus score 1 to Lexus, and zero to Acura.
Honda had also made the same downfall with it's Accord sedan back in the 90's. It continuously refused to give the Accord a V6 engine option year after year, even though buyers asked for one and it's major competition (Camry) already long had one, because Honda once again claimed it's I4 was just as powerful as it's competitor's V6.
Likewise, North American loved torque that V6 could generate, but I4 couldn't. So Honda was rewarded by losing massive sales to the V6 Camry's. Honda finally bowed down to lost sales, and had to spend massive resources to quickly shoehorn a Legend V6 into the lengthened engine bay of the 5G Accord in order to rescue sales.
So when Honda finally woke up and realized that the Acura brand wasn't moving up towards the luxury image due to the lack of V8/RWD, then it authorized the V8/RWD programs to remedy it's hardware shortcomings. The V10 NSX was also an excellent tool to build up the much needed brand image. But very unfortunate that the economy meltdown had ruined it all for Acura.
Anyhow, it's good that there is one point we all agree on. We all agree that V8 and RWD are needed by Acura in order to compete with BMW and MB.
If Acura is able to compete with BMW and MB, it will eventually be recognized as a true luxury brand, just like the path that Lexus took.
Honda created Acura as a LUXURY-PERFORMANCE nameplate, and "luxury nameplate" meant luxury nameplate. I don't see how "luxury nameplate" can have different meanings. The luxury nameplates at that time was BMW and MB.
Also in the quotation, Honda used "cars" and not "car", meaning that Honda engineered the entire Acura division to challenge BMW's and MB's of the day.
Hyundai Motor Co. has and will never said it created Hyundai as a LUXURY nameplate, but Honda did with it's Acura brand. Hyundai may want to compare it's top-line cars such as the Genesis/Equus with the 5-series, but this is far from the same as engineering the entire Acura division to challenge the true luxury brands as Honda has said.
If Hyundai is to create a LUXURY division tomorrow with the V8/RWD Genesis/Equus in it's stable, I dare say that this luxo division will have more success in becoming a recognized luxury brand 5-10 years down the road than with Acura even after 25 years.
Hyundai's shortcoming is the lack of a luxury nameplate, and Acura's shortcoming is the lack of V8/RWD hardware.
Speaking about value. A new product or a new brand, that is untried and unproven, must be given a bargain price tag in order to attach buyers otherwise won't have ventured in. Even Lexus is no exception with it's $40K 1st generation V8/RWD LS400 back in 1989. It was definitely rated good value too. Lexus didn't become a luxury brand in one day, it was a lengthy process. The bargain-priced 1G V8/RWD LS400 was well received and well praised. Then Lexus raised it's vehicle price tags gradually and established it's luxury image steadily.
The reason why Acura failed was because Honda had overestimated it's products and failed to understand buyers' mindset. Back 25 years ago, Honda had claimed that it's V6 could rival the V8 of the time, so there was no need to develop anything bigger than 6 cylinders. But wrong.
Even though V6 was sufficient in the Asian markets, North Americans in particular were used to associate luxury cars with RWD and V8 engine options. North American loved torque; lots and lots of torque; and this was one thing that V6 engines couldn't provide. Thus score 1 to Lexus, and zero to Acura.
Honda had also made the same downfall with it's Accord sedan back in the 90's. It continuously refused to give the Accord a V6 engine option year after year, even though buyers asked for one and it's major competition (Camry) already long had one, because Honda once again claimed it's I4 was just as powerful as it's competitor's V6.
Likewise, North American loved torque that V6 could generate, but I4 couldn't. So Honda was rewarded by losing massive sales to the V6 Camry's. Honda finally bowed down to lost sales, and had to spend massive resources to quickly shoehorn a Legend V6 into the lengthened engine bay of the 5G Accord in order to rescue sales.
So when Honda finally woke up and realized that the Acura brand wasn't moving up towards the luxury image due to the lack of V8/RWD, then it authorized the V8/RWD programs to remedy it's hardware shortcomings. The V10 NSX was also an excellent tool to build up the much needed brand image. But very unfortunate that the economy meltdown had ruined it all for Acura.
Anyhow, it's good that there is one point we all agree on. We all agree that V8 and RWD are needed by Acura in order to compete with BMW and MB.
If Acura is able to compete with BMW and MB, it will eventually be recognized as a true luxury brand, just like the path that Lexus took.
When you establish a brand to challenge a luxury brand, of course you're going to say your brand is also a luxury brand. What else could you say? "We are designing Acura to be a mainstream brand to challenge the likes of MB and BMW". That would never work. It's one thing to call yourself luxury, it's another thing when you actually are luxury.
People here laugh at the notion of Acura being competitive with MB and BMW today because Acura doesn't offer (at the least) a RWD chassis or the bigger engines that MB and BMW do. Back when Acura was first established, MB and BMW both had RWD in all of their cars and a V8 available for some of their cars. The same formula they are using today was the same formula they were using 25 years ago. That being said, how is it that you can tell me that Acura was considered an eye-to-eye competitor with MB and BMW back then? With a FWD 4 cylinder hatchback and fwd 4 door sedan? If Honda's intention was to meet MB and BMW eye-to-eye, as you say, then do you really think they thought they could succeed at that with their initial and even subsequent offerings? Doesn't make any sense. Acura has ALWAYS been an intercept brand that has served to sway buyers that would be okay with 90% of the European offerings at substantially lower price. THAT was what made Acura.
Has Acura EVER had a product that could DIRECTLY compete with the Europeans head on as far as specs go? Your answer to this question should really say a lot as to what the purpose of Acura has always been.
04-07-2012, 11:37 AM
#1849
Honda Fanboy
The word luxury is used very loosely in marketing nowadays. I trust that most people here are capable of distinguishing reality from smoke and mirrors.
04-07-2012, 12:41 PM
#1850
Moderator
Not all luxury is created equal. For example, Louis Vuitton is a luxury brand and so is Coach. Both are makers of luggage, handbags, and accessories. Just because they are both considered luxury brands, does that mean their products meet eye-to-eye? Not at all. Their is a difference in craftsmanship, materials, service, exclusivity, PRICE, etc... Comparing the two brands would be like comparing Lexus and MB. MB is a known GLOBAL brand that even a kid growing up in a mud hut in a developing country has heard of where as Lexus, still considered a luxury brand, is mainly recognized in the U.S. despite being offered globally. They are both considered luxury brands, but the level of their luxury is recognized at different levels.
The word luxury is used very loosely in marketing nowadays. I trust that most people here are capable of distinguishing reality from smoke and mirrors.
The word luxury is used very loosely in marketing nowadays. I trust that most people here are capable of distinguishing reality from smoke and mirrors.
The following 2 users liked this post by ttribe:
civicdrivr (04-07-2012),
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04-07-2012, 12:43 PM
#1851
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So to summarize:
Honda thinks Acura is a luxury brand, the Honda way.
The rest of the world sees Acura as a premium brand that occasionally makes a vehicle that stands out and may even push the luxury brands to do better.
Got it.
Honda thinks Acura is a luxury brand, the Honda way.
The rest of the world sees Acura as a premium brand that occasionally makes a vehicle that stands out and may even push the luxury brands to do better.
Got it.
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04-08-2012, 12:47 PM
#1852
Honda Fanboy
Considered? I've known it. Acura's image problem stems from the fact that it has always been MARKETED as a luxury brand that is equivalent to the tier one brands (MB and BMW) but in reality has always been a step below because it has never offered a product that meets the tier one group at eye level.
04-08-2012, 12:49 PM
#1853
Honda Fanboy
04-08-2012, 01:25 PM
#1854
Moderator
Considered? I've known it. Acura's image problem stems from the fact that it has always been MARKETED as a luxury brand that is equivalent to the tier one brands (MB and BMW) but in reality has always been a step below because it has never offered a product that meets the tier one group at eye level.
04-08-2012, 01:45 PM
#1855
Honda Fanboy
04-08-2012, 03:11 PM
#1856
Moderator
Never, as far as I can remember. However, that same recollection leads me to conclude that you've left the impression that you've defended (until the death) every action of Honda/Acura as if it didn't matter that they kept making these slip ups. The fact that you've now openly admitted they've screwed up this "lux" image thing leads me to believe there's hope for you yet.
04-08-2012, 04:37 PM
#1857
Honda Fanboy
Never, as far as I can remember. However, that same recollection leads me to conclude that you've left the impression that you've defended (until the death) every action of Honda/Acura as if it didn't matter that they kept making these slip ups. The fact that you've now openly admitted they've screwed up this "lux" image thing leads me to believe there's hope for you yet.
04-08-2012, 06:06 PM
#1858
Moderator
Defending? Or trying to explain to people who expect MB and BMW from Acura that it's not going to happen because it was NEVER designed to happen from day one. The fact that you still think Acura messed up this "lux" thing, and think that I think that also, leads me to believe that you still have no clue.
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04-09-2012, 06:40 PM
#1859
The sizzle in the Steak
Worst car commercial in quite some time:
The Acura RDX commercial with the "giant" guy tied to the beach with all the little people around him....
a car commercial?!!?
Acura: What exactly are you trying to sell? More Gulliver's Travels' Books?
The Acura RDX commercial with the "giant" guy tied to the beach with all the little people around him....
a car commercial?!!? Acura: What exactly are you trying to sell? More Gulliver's Travels' Books?
04-09-2012, 06:48 PM
#1860
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Nothing beats the Prius C commercials for the 'waste of time and money' category...
04-09-2012, 07:01 PM
#1861
Stay Out Of the Left Lane
Join Date: Oct 2003
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"We have chariot for you - I don't want a chariot.
It's big and powerful like you, yet nimble and compact like us and luxurious.
Intelligently built for the size of your life."
Sorry guys - the commercial was just on while the TV while I was reading this thread.
It's big and powerful like you, yet nimble and compact like us and luxurious.
Intelligently built for the size of your life."
Sorry guys - the commercial was just on while the TV while I was reading this thread.
04-10-2012, 12:03 PM
#1862
You'll Never Walk Alone
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Defending? Or trying to explain to people who expect MB and BMW from Acura that it's not going to happen because it was NEVER designed to happen from day one. The fact that you still think Acura messed up this "lux" thing, and think that I think that also, leads me to believe that you still have no clue.
04-10-2012, 12:24 PM
#1863
The sizzle in the Steak
that one is pretty bad too.
I've said it quite a few times, Honda/Acura need to go to another advertising/marketing firm...ASAP.
04-10-2012, 01:57 PM
#1864
The problem with Acura is that they've become stagnant. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse because I've mentioned this a few times before but here goes.
Look at Audi for example. Compare them to where they were in the early '90s. Who the hell wanted an Audi? They had a horrible, or at the least not a very good reputation. Now they are nearly in league with the other two German brands. They went from having underpowered, forgettable cars with reliability problems to being a star in the luxury car market.
Now think about Acura. In the '90s they had the Legend and NSX, two cars which still garner admiration today. But now they're still stuck on using transverse V6s, which at this point in time are competitive with other makes, but still fall behind when it comes to actual power output. Couple that with the fact that they still haven't learned how to make an automatic transmission that doesn't sap all the power out of the engine. Not to mention even a lowly Corolla shifts smoother than our relatively low-mileage TL. Though Acura has innovated with SH-AWD and kept the 6MT, they put it in a car that many of the people on an Acura forum don't even like.
If that's the "Honda way" then so be it. The fact that many people on AZ have moved on to other brands - namely BMW, MB, Audi, Infiniti, Lexus and even Hyundai - is telling enough.
Look at Audi for example. Compare them to where they were in the early '90s. Who the hell wanted an Audi? They had a horrible, or at the least not a very good reputation. Now they are nearly in league with the other two German brands. They went from having underpowered, forgettable cars with reliability problems to being a star in the luxury car market.
Now think about Acura. In the '90s they had the Legend and NSX, two cars which still garner admiration today. But now they're still stuck on using transverse V6s, which at this point in time are competitive with other makes, but still fall behind when it comes to actual power output. Couple that with the fact that they still haven't learned how to make an automatic transmission that doesn't sap all the power out of the engine. Not to mention even a lowly Corolla shifts smoother than our relatively low-mileage TL. Though Acura has innovated with SH-AWD and kept the 6MT, they put it in a car that many of the people on an Acura forum don't even like.
If that's the "Honda way" then so be it. The fact that many people on AZ have moved on to other brands - namely BMW, MB, Audi, Infiniti, Lexus and even Hyundai - is telling enough.
04-10-2012, 04:16 PM
#1865
Moderator
04-10-2012, 04:26 PM
#1866
04-10-2012, 04:43 PM
#1867
You'll Never Walk Alone
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The problem with Acura is that they've become stagnant. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse because I've mentioned this a few times before but here goes.
Look at Audi for example. Compare them to where they were in the early '90s. Who the hell wanted an Audi? They had a horrible, or at the least not a very good reputation. Now they are nearly in league with the other two German brands. They went from having underpowered, forgettable cars with reliability problems to being a star in the luxury car market.
Now think about Acura. In the '90s they had the Legend and NSX, two cars which still garner admiration today. But now they're still stuck on using transverse V6s, which at this point in time are competitive with other makes, but still fall behind when it comes to actual power output. Couple that with the fact that they still haven't learned how to make an automatic transmission that doesn't sap all the power out of the engine. Not to mention even a lowly Corolla shifts smoother than our relatively low-mileage TL. Though Acura has innovated with SH-AWD and kept the 6MT, they put it in a car that many of the people on an Acura forum don't even like.
If that's the "Honda way" then so be it. The fact that many people on AZ have moved on to other brands - namely BMW, MB, Audi, Infiniti, Lexus and even Hyundai - is telling enough.
Look at Audi for example. Compare them to where they were in the early '90s. Who the hell wanted an Audi? They had a horrible, or at the least not a very good reputation. Now they are nearly in league with the other two German brands. They went from having underpowered, forgettable cars with reliability problems to being a star in the luxury car market.
Now think about Acura. In the '90s they had the Legend and NSX, two cars which still garner admiration today. But now they're still stuck on using transverse V6s, which at this point in time are competitive with other makes, but still fall behind when it comes to actual power output. Couple that with the fact that they still haven't learned how to make an automatic transmission that doesn't sap all the power out of the engine. Not to mention even a lowly Corolla shifts smoother than our relatively low-mileage TL. Though Acura has innovated with SH-AWD and kept the 6MT, they put it in a car that many of the people on an Acura forum don't even like.
If that's the "Honda way" then so be it. The fact that many people on AZ have moved on to other brands - namely BMW, MB, Audi, Infiniti, Lexus and even Hyundai - is telling enough.
And now, we know that they are working on the next NSX. We have seen the RLX concept that brings hybrid drivetrain to a whole new level. We also know that they are working on a twin-clutch gearbox. In the mean time, the new 6AT is smooth and responsive. Transmission-wise, it's not a problem any more, unlike before.
Now this is not to say Acura is flawless. No manufacturer is. I'm just trying to show where progress has been made.
Calm down man!
04-10-2012, 05:00 PM
#1868
Moderator
04-10-2012, 05:01 PM
#1869
The sizzle in the Steak
All I've heard from peeps is that the 6 speed AT in the ZDX is heading down the same path as the old Honda 5 speed AT.
04-10-2012, 05:15 PM
#1870
Moderator
04-10-2012, 05:35 PM
#1871
04-10-2012, 05:37 PM
#1872
Moderator
04-10-2012, 06:26 PM
#1873
The sizzle in the Steak
...what comes next is torque converter replacements and denials from Honda that everything is OK.
04-10-2012, 08:44 PM
#1874
6G TLX-S
I think Acura were excellent in the early 90's, but they didn't become stagnant. They went backward starting 1996 with those crappy 1g RL, TL, SLX, etc!! Then they took the value luxury route, emphasizing on the value part starting around 2000 (2G TL, 1G MDX, etc). From then on, there's been steady improvement as we can see great products such as 3G TL, 2G RL, and 1G TSX. The 2G MDX has also been a success. From 2005 on, we have seen more implementations of the SH-AWD system, which I thought is a good direction given the fact that Honda doesn't have a proper RWD platform.
And now, we know that they are working on the next NSX. We have seen the RLX concept that brings hybrid drivetrain to a whole new level. We also know that they are working on a twin-clutch gearbox. In the mean time, the new 6AT is smooth and responsive. Transmission-wise, it's not a problem any more, unlike before.
Now this is not to say Acura is flawless. No manufacturer is. I'm just trying to show where progress has been made.
Calm down man!
And now, we know that they are working on the next NSX. We have seen the RLX concept that brings hybrid drivetrain to a whole new level. We also know that they are working on a twin-clutch gearbox. In the mean time, the new 6AT is smooth and responsive. Transmission-wise, it's not a problem any more, unlike before.
Now this is not to say Acura is flawless. No manufacturer is. I'm just trying to show where progress has been made.
Calm down man!
But there has been no more of such new and clever inventions since the debug of SH-AWD back in 2005. Meanwhile, other top auto makers are already offering their versions of torque-vectoring (TV) AWD on their vehicles.
I don't know if "stagnant" is the right word. But Honda has done nothing from then to now, in terms of improving it's SH-AWD to make it stay on top of the other's TV-AWD offerings, which has already all caught up to Acura's SH-AWD technology.
SH-AWD was a great invention, but Honda can't just stop here. Honda needs to improve the design continuously, while others are copying, in order to stay ahead of the competitors.
One may argue that there's the 6AT. But it's arrival is of many years late. It is a desperate catchup to the competitors' current 7AT and 8AT. The innovative Honda should be the one that came out 1st with the 6AT, and not after others has started to release the more advanced 7AT and 8AT.
This upcoming 9-speed tranny isn't gonna be designed by Honda, but by ZF. I have no problem with it. I even wish that Honda can outsource other innovative technologies so that we can buy better Acura vehicles that lead, not lag behind the auto industry.
DI tech and hybrid powertrain are some crucial technologies that should have come out years ago.
Yes, yes, yes, Honda is now working on the next NSX, hybrid drivetrain, Earth Dream motors, and dual-clutch tranny. But Honda was also known for working on 1st-iteration NSX, V8, V10, RWD, next gen V6, and 3G RL some year back too. None of them has materialized as of now. This is a classic example of wasted resources.
After all, anyone can claim working on the next generation space shuttle too. It is what comes out to the market that counts.
I agree that no manufacturer (Honda/Acura included) is flawless. But when this manufacturer hasn't released anything substantial (not in development which may never see sunlight) that "wows" the auto industry like it used to be, it is called "stagnant".
Saab was another extreme example of stagnant, before it went down.
04-10-2012, 09:07 PM
#1875
04-11-2012, 10:23 AM
#1876
I think Acura were excellent in the early 90's, but they didn't become stagnant. They went backward starting 1996 with those crappy 1g RL, TL, SLX, etc!! Then they took the value luxury route, emphasizing on the value part starting around 2000 (2G TL, 1G MDX, etc). From then on, there's been steady improvement as we can see great products such as 3G TL, 2G RL, and 1G TSX. The 2G MDX has also been a success. From 2005 on, we have seen more implementations of the SH-AWD system, which I thought is a good direction given the fact that Honda doesn't have a proper RWD platform.
And now, we know that they are working on the next NSX. We have seen the RLX concept that brings hybrid drivetrain to a whole new level. We also know that they are working on a twin-clutch gearbox. In the mean time, the new 6AT is smooth and responsive. Transmission-wise, it's not a problem any more, unlike before.
Now this is not to say Acura is flawless. No manufacturer is. I'm just trying to show where progress has been made.
Calm down man!
And now, we know that they are working on the next NSX. We have seen the RLX concept that brings hybrid drivetrain to a whole new level. We also know that they are working on a twin-clutch gearbox. In the mean time, the new 6AT is smooth and responsive. Transmission-wise, it's not a problem any more, unlike before.
Now this is not to say Acura is flawless. No manufacturer is. I'm just trying to show where progress has been made.
Calm down man!
I kind of feel where some of the frustrated people are coming from. I drove 2 brand new Tl's from 02-04 a type s and from 04-2010 and within that time I flirted with the idea of maybe stepping up to the RL. I have test drove the RL within the past years several times and although a nice car it never gave me an urge to really want to spend the extra money. And I am the person that would always have to defend Acura as a serious player in the the luxury segment to friends and relatives that owned Mercedes, Lexus and BMW. Until I finally stepped out and purchased a MB E550 and I was like wow. Is this what I've been missing. I would admit on the technological side Acura usually is first to the party in many features but the competitors are there shortly after. As far as performance, style and prestige(which doesn't mean that much to me, the prestige part) Acura doesn't cut the mustard, but in this segment you'll be surprised how meny people buy for prestige and don't know the first thing about what's under the hood, performance or some of the features the car even offers. All they know is I'm driving a Lexus, MB, BMW, ect. Anyway man I've never driven an NSX(which seems to be the only serious performing Acura, stock at least) but for a sedan the MB E550 hauls ass. The low end torque is ridiculous and on the highway the passing power is unbelievable. It feels like a car is worth the extra money. The car has a nice blend of luxury, style and performance. I've been waiting on the new RL to surface like I'm sure many of us and from what I see I'm not at all impressed with the styling. Now I'm pretty sure the car will be nice and the performance with be more than adequate but when compared to some of the V8's in the category I'm not sure if it'll stack up. Especially when compared to the class like the MB E63's or BMW M5 which is a segment I always wanted Acura to jump into but first things first. Acura needs to tackle the class below that first. I hope the best for the brand but for right now I think Acura still needs to some soul searching. The problem I see is the rules for this segment has already been established and companies like Acura, Volvo Saab seem want to play by their own rules which is cool but you can't expect the same results and sales volume if you play by your own set of rules. Just my
from experience.
Last edited by sufall96; 04-11-2012 at 10:27 AM.
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ttribe (04-11-2012)
04-11-2012, 01:27 PM
#1877
While I don't like what Acura has done as of late, I see the RLX as a sign that Acura is turning the tide. We shouldn't forget that it actually has a direct-injection 3.5 V6, with two electric motors at the rear, making ~370+ HP, and driven by a 7-speed DCT. I think as far as driving prowess goes, the RLX will be like no Acura sedan before it. Many of us have been calling for DI, more than 5-speeds (and in a sedan) as well as a dual-clutch transmission.
I also remember people complaining about the 2G RL only having SH-AWD as a drivetrain option. Well, now they have flexibility in that department. I'm sure the majority of people who may be cross-shopping the RLX wouldn't even be guess if it were FWD or not, nor would they care. It will probably be more fuel efficient than its competitors as well.
Still, having been burned in the past by disappointing press releases and announcements, I'll wait and see first.
I also remember people complaining about the 2G RL only having SH-AWD as a drivetrain option. Well, now they have flexibility in that department. I'm sure the majority of people who may be cross-shopping the RLX wouldn't even be guess if it were FWD or not, nor would they care. It will probably be more fuel efficient than its competitors as well.
Still, having been burned in the past by disappointing press releases and announcements, I'll wait and see first.
04-11-2012, 01:53 PM
#1878
I don't know if "stagnant" is the right word. But Honda has done nothing from then to now, in terms of improving it's SH-AWD to make it stay on top of the other's TV-AWD offerings, which has already all caught up to Acura's SH-AWD technology.
SH-AWD was a great invention, but Honda can't just stop here. Honda needs to improve the design continuously, while others are copying, in order to stay ahead of the competitors.
DI tech and hybrid powertrain are some crucial technologies that should have come out years ago.
I agree that no manufacturer (Honda/Acura included) is flawless. But when this manufacturer hasn't released anything substantial (not in development which may never see sunlight) that "wows" the auto industry like it used to be, it is called "stagnant".
Saab was another extreme example of stagnant, before it went down.
SH-AWD was a great invention, but Honda can't just stop here. Honda needs to improve the design continuously, while others are copying, in order to stay ahead of the competitors.
DI tech and hybrid powertrain are some crucial technologies that should have come out years ago.
I agree that no manufacturer (Honda/Acura included) is flawless. But when this manufacturer hasn't released anything substantial (not in development which may never see sunlight) that "wows" the auto industry like it used to be, it is called "stagnant".
Saab was another extreme example of stagnant, before it went down.
why not the TSX?After the NSX was discontinued, there was a period of silence, then all of a sudden hints dropped about the NSX successor.... then, it was quietly killed off.
Saab by comparison has never been a true player in the luxury market. They've had a tiny little niche of their own, but their overall sales were at the bottom of the barrel.
It's all relative. Compare Acura to Lexus who has been there nearly as long, and with similar origins. Right off the bat Lexus went with a RWD V8 and it has a huge success, scrambling up the luxury market previously owned by BMW/MB and still doing so today. Lexus went through a period of gradually improving their cars just like Acura did. Then out of nowhere they introduce the IS-F, aimed right at the M3 and with an 8AT that shifts very nearly as fast as a DCT. And the LF-A, as well as the potential for other F models.
By comparison we're not going to see the NSX for another 3 years.
04-11-2012, 02:01 PM
#1879
You'll Never Walk Alone
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Age: 37
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Honda used to be a very innovative auto company, pioneering advanced and breakthrough auto technologies such as i-VTEC, variable-nozzle turbocharger, hp/liter output class leader, Japanese-made supercar, unibody truck (Ridgeline), SH-AWD, etc. to name a few.
But there has been no more of such new and clever inventions since the debug of SH-AWD back in 2005. Meanwhile, other top auto makers are already offering their versions of torque-vectoring (TV) AWD on their vehicles.
I don't know if "stagnant" is the right word. But Honda has done nothing from then to now, in terms of improving it's SH-AWD to make it stay on top of the other's TV-AWD offerings, which has already all caught up to Acura's SH-AWD technology.
SH-AWD was a great invention, but Honda can't just stop here. Honda needs to improve the design continuously, while others are copying, in order to stay ahead of the competitors.
One may argue that there's the 6AT. But it's arrival is of many years late. It is a desperate catchup to the competitors' current 7AT and 8AT. The innovative Honda should be the one that came out 1st with the 6AT, and not after others has started to release the more advanced 7AT and 8AT.
This upcoming 9-speed tranny isn't gonna be designed by Honda, but by ZF. I have no problem with it. I even wish that Honda can outsource other innovative technologies so that we can buy better Acura vehicles that lead, not lag behind the auto industry.
DI tech and hybrid powertrain are some crucial technologies that should have come out years ago.
Yes, yes, yes, Honda is now working on the next NSX, hybrid drivetrain, Earth Dream motors, and dual-clutch tranny. But Honda was also known for working on 1st-iteration NSX, V8, V10, RWD, next gen V6, and 3G RL some year back too. None of them has materialized as of now. This is a classic example of wasted resources.
After all, anyone can claim working on the next generation space shuttle too. It is what comes out to the market that counts.
I agree that no manufacturer (Honda/Acura included) is flawless. But when this manufacturer hasn't released anything substantial (not in development which may never see sunlight) that "wows" the auto industry like it used to be, it is called "stagnant".
Saab was another extreme example of stagnant, before it went down.
But there has been no more of such new and clever inventions since the debug of SH-AWD back in 2005. Meanwhile, other top auto makers are already offering their versions of torque-vectoring (TV) AWD on their vehicles.
I don't know if "stagnant" is the right word. But Honda has done nothing from then to now, in terms of improving it's SH-AWD to make it stay on top of the other's TV-AWD offerings, which has already all caught up to Acura's SH-AWD technology.
SH-AWD was a great invention, but Honda can't just stop here. Honda needs to improve the design continuously, while others are copying, in order to stay ahead of the competitors.
One may argue that there's the 6AT. But it's arrival is of many years late. It is a desperate catchup to the competitors' current 7AT and 8AT. The innovative Honda should be the one that came out 1st with the 6AT, and not after others has started to release the more advanced 7AT and 8AT.
This upcoming 9-speed tranny isn't gonna be designed by Honda, but by ZF. I have no problem with it. I even wish that Honda can outsource other innovative technologies so that we can buy better Acura vehicles that lead, not lag behind the auto industry.
DI tech and hybrid powertrain are some crucial technologies that should have come out years ago.
Yes, yes, yes, Honda is now working on the next NSX, hybrid drivetrain, Earth Dream motors, and dual-clutch tranny. But Honda was also known for working on 1st-iteration NSX, V8, V10, RWD, next gen V6, and 3G RL some year back too. None of them has materialized as of now. This is a classic example of wasted resources.
After all, anyone can claim working on the next generation space shuttle too. It is what comes out to the market that counts.
I agree that no manufacturer (Honda/Acura included) is flawless. But when this manufacturer hasn't released anything substantial (not in development which may never see sunlight) that "wows" the auto industry like it used to be, it is called "stagnant".
Saab was another extreme example of stagnant, before it went down.
Anyways, it seems like SH-AWD already old tech, as there's the new Sport Hybrid SH-AWD system. I think that's a decent innovation, don't you agree? It combines a hybrid system with torque vectoring AWD capability to improve performance and fuel efficiency significantly while being lighter than the original mechanical SH-AWD system (according to Honda). As a result, I really can't say Honda is stagnant.
Transmission-wise, I think it's been a long time since the last time Honda is leading the industry. In fact, I think it has been Honda's problem for a long time. For instance, I had a 1992 Accord and its 4AT was not smooth at all. Honda should have outsourced this part sooner.
I think Honda is one of the firsts to come out with hybrid powertrain - The Honda Insight. Problem: Insight was a 2-seater that didn't appeal to a lot of people - unlike the Prius. Prius has been steadily building its reputation while the Honda let the Insight die. I honestly don't think there's any issue with Honda's IMA system. It works in the real world; it makes financial sense as the system is cheap; it's also lightweight and compact to not affect driving feel much. But all of these don't matter any more, as Prius has a really good reputation and people seem to care about the name more than making financial sense.
Honda introduced DI tech with the 1st gen Stream in 2001 (or 2003). But the replacement engine (the R series) was better on gas and made more power than the DI engine. Problem with DI is carbon deposit build-up - something that manufacturers won't tell you. After all, it's not exactly a reliability issue, so why bother telling people? Manufacturers can always say it's normal to have carbon deposit build-up that would affect negatively on performance and fuel mileage as engines get older and have more mileage on them. Here's one article that talks about this (which took me 1 second to find it, just google it): http://www.autoobserver.com/2011/06/...-adopters.html
For Honda, that is unacceptable. They are known for building good engines. It's just not the "Honda way" to design an engine that will get good EPA numbers and good performance when it's new. Most people expect Honda engines to last for a long, long time. This is why Honda is reluctant to adopt DI in their engines, until now.
Yes, a lot of new technologies and cars are coming out in the near future, not now. But then these technologies have already been tested by car reviewers already. It's not like these are technologies made up from Honda without any solid proof. Heck, even the V10 supercar was being tested before. That means the technology is already there. I'd say the automaker is stagnant if it doesn't even have any of the above.
I kind of feel where some of the frustrated people are coming from. I drove 2 brand new Tl's from 02-04 a type s and from 04-2010 and within that time I flirted with the idea of maybe stepping up to the RL. I have test drove the RL within the past years several times and although a nice car it never gave me an urge to really want to spend the extra money. And I am the person that would always have to defend Acura as a serious player in the the luxury segment to friends and relatives that owned Mercedes, Lexus and BMW. Until I finally stepped out and purchased a MB E550 and I was like wow. Is this what I've been missing. I would admit on the technological side Acura usually is first to the party in many features but the competitors are there shortly after. As far as performance, style and prestige(which doesn't mean that much to me, the prestige part) Acura doesn't cut the mustard, but in this segment you'll be surprised how meny people buy for prestige and don't know the first thing about what's under the hood, performance or some of the features the car even offers. All they know is I'm driving a Lexus, MB, BMW, ect. Anyway man I've never driven an NSX(which seems to be the only serious performing Acura, stock at least) but for a sedan the MB E550 hauls ass. The low end torque is ridiculous and on the highway the passing power is unbelievable. It feels like a car is worth the extra money. The car has a nice blend of luxury, style and performance. I've been waiting on the new RL to surface like I'm sure many of us and from what I see I'm not at all impressed with the styling. Now I'm pretty sure the car will be nice and the performance with be more than adequate but when compared to some of the V8's in the category I'm not sure if it'll stack up. Especially when compared to the class like the MB E63's or BMW M5 which is a segment I always wanted Acura to jump into but first things first. Acura needs to tackle the class below that first. I hope the best for the brand but for right now I think Acura still needs to some soul searching. The problem I see is the rules for this segment has already been established and companies like Acura, Volvo Saab seem want to play by their own rules which is cool but you can't expect the same results and sales volume if you play by your own set of rules. Just my from experience.
from experience.
04-11-2012, 04:19 PM
#1880
Senior Moderator
While I don't like what Acura has done as of late, I see the RLX as a sign that Acura is turning the tide. We shouldn't forget that it actually has a direct-injection 3.5 V6, with two electric motors at the rear, making ~370+ HP, and driven by a 7-speed DCT. I think as far as driving prowess goes, the RLX will be like no Acura sedan before it. Many of us have been calling for DI, more than 5-speeds (and in a sedan) as well as a dual-clutch transmission.
All that tech is great and welcomed. But lets be realistic, how many of us are buying an RL? Lets see some of that tech trickle down. I think that's why there's not a ton of excitement just yet.
Otherwise, besides the styling, what's not to like?
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Costco (04-12-2012)