Acura: RLX News
#2761
I would have to imagine that it would be at least 310hp coming from the new EDT engine. Can't imagine it being 290 hp when the current one is rated at 300hp.
There is also no reason to believe that the standard RL won't just come with mechanical SH-AWD. Just because the hybrid with e-SH-AWD is not standard, it doesn't have to mean that the base RL will automatically be FWD.
There is also no reason to believe that the standard RL won't just come with mechanical SH-AWD. Just because the hybrid with e-SH-AWD is not standard, it doesn't have to mean that the base RL will automatically be FWD.
The news we've all been reading is that the new engine is a 3.5(DOHC?). I'd assume that the 3.7 is dead?
#2762
Senior Moderator
But, in all honesty, I'll wait for the official press release and pictures before I go all-negatron here.
Give the car a chance.
Honda/Acura...please, PLEASE stop being so freaking stubborn. Please.
Give the car a chance.
Honda/Acura...please, PLEASE stop being so freaking stubborn. Please.
![Wish](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/wish.gif)
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VTEC Racer (01-25-2012)
#2764
AZ Community Team
#2765
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
Easy, the carbon fiber driveshaft in the RL compared to the steel in the LS. ![Tongue](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
In all seriousness, one of my daughter's friend's dad has a LS460. She drives it over to our house occasional, I have only been in a pre-MMC 2G RL. To me the quality of the materials and build quality are about the same in the RL and LS. The material and build quality of the 2G RL are also much better than my 3G TL.
I don't see any distinction from the suspension control arms to the 4 piston front brake calipers up to the seat leather. They're about the same, the big difference is in size and features (RWD, V8, 8AT,...) in the LS. That's where the LS is clearly ahead, quality they are equal IMO.![2 Cents](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/2cents.gif)
![Tongue](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
In all seriousness, one of my daughter's friend's dad has a LS460. She drives it over to our house occasional, I have only been in a pre-MMC 2G RL. To me the quality of the materials and build quality are about the same in the RL and LS. The material and build quality of the 2G RL are also much better than my 3G TL.
I don't see any distinction from the suspension control arms to the 4 piston front brake calipers up to the seat leather. They're about the same, the big difference is in size and features (RWD, V8, 8AT,...) in the LS. That's where the LS is clearly ahead, quality they are equal IMO.
![2 Cents](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/2cents.gif)
![Werd](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/werd.gif)
I honestly want Honda/Acura to do well in the market. Release something like 3G TL or S2K type of cars, so I can buy them.
![Chuckle](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/chuckle.gif)
#2766
I've said it for a number of years, if the RL is going to be the flagship of Acura, it needs to move up market and directly compete with the LS/S/A8/7.
Niche marketing for a flagship vehicle IMHO just doesn't work. If Acura want's people to be impressed by the brand, their top of the line model shouldn't be positioned so that it competes directly with the middle range models of other manufacturers. Presently the RL competes more with the 5 series, A6, and M35. If Acura really wants to push the luxury envelope, the RL needs to move.
The RL has a place in the states as Acura needs a flagship model to compete against other manufacturers, but it just needs some drastic changes IMHO. Just my![2 Cents](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/2cents.gif)
Niche marketing for a flagship vehicle IMHO just doesn't work. If Acura want's people to be impressed by the brand, their top of the line model shouldn't be positioned so that it competes directly with the middle range models of other manufacturers. Presently the RL competes more with the 5 series, A6, and M35. If Acura really wants to push the luxury envelope, the RL needs to move.
The RL has a place in the states as Acura needs a flagship model to compete against other manufacturers, but it just needs some drastic changes IMHO. Just my
![2 Cents](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/2cents.gif)
#2768
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NSX = Halo Car
RL = Flagship
If the NSX were the flagship, then the majority of Acura's lineup would be sports cars. The flagship exemplifies the overall brand image which is why the RL is the flagship. The NSX is a tangent, showcasing the technological feats that the brand is capable of, while not committing themselves to introducing all of those features in all of their cars.
RL = Flagship
If the NSX were the flagship, then the majority of Acura's lineup would be sports cars. The flagship exemplifies the overall brand image which is why the RL is the flagship. The NSX is a tangent, showcasing the technological feats that the brand is capable of, while not committing themselves to introducing all of those features in all of their cars.
![Shrug](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/shrug.gif)
Last edited by Sly Raskal; 01-25-2012 at 01:04 PM. Reason: corrected typos
#2769
Honda Fanboy
Yes, as far as I know, the 3.7 is dead. However, in releasing the preliminary data of the new EDT 3.5 V6 (which is SOHC), Honda stated that it will have at least 310 hp.
#2770
NSX = Halo Car
RL = Flagship
If the NSX were the flagship, then the majority of the Acura's lineup would be nothing but sports car. The flagship exemplifies the overall brand image which is why the RL is the flagship. The NSX is a tangent showcasing the technological feats that the brand is capable of, while not committing themselves to introducing all of those features in all their cars.![Shrug](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/shrug.gif)
RL = Flagship
If the NSX were the flagship, then the majority of the Acura's lineup would be nothing but sports car. The flagship exemplifies the overall brand image which is why the RL is the flagship. The NSX is a tangent showcasing the technological feats that the brand is capable of, while not committing themselves to introducing all of those features in all their cars.
![Shrug](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/shrug.gif)
#2771
You all missed the point. Why bring back the NSX if the future of the brand doesn't include sports cars. The NSX brings them into the showroom and they drive out with a Sport sedan. Not a hopelessly underselling obsolete platform. Future Acura's will undoubtedly be sports oriented hybrids (under 400hp).
#2772
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You all missed the point. Why bring back the NSX if the future of the brand doesn't include sports cars. The NSX brings them into the showroom and they drive out with a Sport sedan. Not a hopelessly underselling obsolete platform. Future Acura's will undoubtedly be sports oriented hybrids (under 400hp).
#2773
The sizzle in the Steak
Fans....if there are any left, will have to wait yet another gen to see if Acura will turn things around. 2019 model year anyone?
...and I will say it again: Honda/Acura, PLEASE prove me wrong!!!!
#2774
Senior Moderator
So the RL, TL and TSX will all be pretty much the same size??
Lets get some segment separation.
![Why Me](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/whyme.gif)
#2775
Senior Moderator
If Acura ever was intending to compete with the A8, S-Class, LS-Class and etc., Acura would have announced a V8 and V10 ages ago.
We are not seeing that and so, that reveals their market is likely after cars like the Infiniti M35, 535i, Audi A6, Lexus GS350...
And sure. But, what makes my head hurt is why go after a TRIM? Why not the class? The GS350 is a TRIM. Not the entire spectrum of the GS. Who bases their car model after the competitor's ONE TRIM?
I don't get it.
We are not seeing that and so, that reveals their market is likely after cars like the Infiniti M35, 535i, Audi A6, Lexus GS350...
And sure. But, what makes my head hurt is why go after a TRIM? Why not the class? The GS350 is a TRIM. Not the entire spectrum of the GS. Who bases their car model after the competitor's ONE TRIM?
I don't get it.
#2776
I really don't feel I've missed anything. The majority of Acura's lineup isn't going to be sports cars. They may have a couple in the future, which is speculation at this point, but to classify the NSX as the flagship is like Ford saying their flagship is the Shelby GT500, or MB saying their flagship is the Gullwing or SLR. Look at how many MORE sports cars BMW has compared to many other brands, yet they have no halo car, but they do have a flagship which is the 7 series.
Flagship
Automobiles
The term flagship is also used to describe the top or main vehicle manufactured by automotive marque. These vehicles are usually, but not always, the most expensive, prestigious and largest vehicles in the line-up. The term is most often applied to sedans and usually only those manufactured by luxury automobile marques. The Mercedes-Benz S-Class is one example, and the BMW 7-Series is another.
The term "halo car" is often used in automotive marketing and journalism to refer to the flagship vehicle. The term is derived from the halo effect, the tendency for a favorable trait to influence the perception of subsequent traits in a sequence of interpretations; it appears to have been used as early as 1938.
My point is that Acura can't keep a car in the line up that doesn't sell. It amounts to poor business. They will eventually have to get rid of that dog. BMW sold 11,300 7's in the US last year...again, how many RL's did Acura sell?
#2777
Senior Moderator
#2778
Senior Moderator
But interesting point....if the next RL has the same exterior size as the current one, then its probably safe to assume that the next TL will also be similarly sized and packaged (smaller I'm sure but not by much is my guess). Which leaves me wondering if they'll have the same problem on their hands. Will E-SH-AWD be the only difference?
Lets wait and see what shows up in New York before getting carried away.
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Mr Marco (01-25-2012)
#2780
<table border="3" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="1"><tbody><tr> <td>
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Total 2011 sales of the RL: 768
Less than 1,000??? Tesla sold more roadsters last year!
Anyone care to guess what the numbers will be next year?
Month
</td> <td> Acura RL
U.S. Sales 2010
</td> <td> U.S. Sales 2010
Acura RL
U.S. Sales 2011
</td> <td> U.S. Sales 2011
Acura RL
U.S. Sales 2012
</td> <td> U.S. Sales 2012
Acura RL
U.S. Sales 2013
</td> <td> U.S. Sales 2013
Acura RL
U.S. Sales 2014
</td></tr> <tr> <td> U.S. Sales 2014
January
</td> <td> 110
</td> <td> 160
</td> <td> February
</td> <td> 131
</td> <td> 168
</td> <td> March
</td> <td> 163
</td> <td> 199
</td> <td> April
</td> <td> 154
</td> <td> 181
</td> <td> May
</td> <td> 151
</td> <td> 58
</td> <td> June
</td> <td> 163
</td> <td> 59
</td> <td> </td></tr> <tr> <td>
July
</td> <td> 172
</td> <td> 70
</td> <td> </td></tr> <tr> <td>
August
</td> <td> 193
</td> <td> 41
</td> <td> </td></tr> <tr> <td>
September
</td> <td> 240
</td> <td> 43
</td> <td> October
</td> <td> 251
</td> <td> 22
</td> <td> November
</td> <td> 168
</td> <td> 45
</td> <td> </td></tr> <tr> <td>
December
</td> <td> 141
</td> <td> 50
</td></tr></tbody></table> Total 2011 sales of the RL: 768
Less than 1,000??? Tesla sold more roadsters last year!
Anyone care to guess what the numbers will be next year?
Last edited by Mr Marco; 01-25-2012 at 01:47 PM.
#2781
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That still doesn't mean that the next gen RL won't be classified as the flagship. I'm simply going by how a majority of the brands treat their model lineup. We may perceive them differently, but Acura, Bimmer, Lexus, Merc, they all treat their top sedan as the flagship.
I'm not saying it's right, just saying how it is now and how it probably will be when the next gen is released.
The RL needs a major makeover, there's no doubt there.
I'm not saying it's right, just saying how it is now and how it probably will be when the next gen is released.
The RL needs a major makeover, there's no doubt there.
![Nod](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/nod.gif)
#2782
![](http://www.ridelust.com/wp-content/uploads/2008lincolntown-car.jpg)
Ford is discontinuing it because they only sold 891 last year. Hmm, good idea...HEY ACURA!
#2784
Honda Fanboy
If Acura ever was intending to compete with the A8, S-Class, LS-Class and etc., Acura would have announced a V8 and V10 ages ago.
We are not seeing that and so, that reveals their market is likely after cars like the Infiniti M35, 535i, Audi A6, Lexus GS350...
And sure. But, what makes my head hurt is why go after a TRIM? Why not the class? The GS350 is a TRIM. Not the entire spectrum of the GS. Who bases their car model after the competitor's ONE TRIM?
I don't get it.
We are not seeing that and so, that reveals their market is likely after cars like the Infiniti M35, 535i, Audi A6, Lexus GS350...
And sure. But, what makes my head hurt is why go after a TRIM? Why not the class? The GS350 is a TRIM. Not the entire spectrum of the GS. Who bases their car model after the competitor's ONE TRIM?
I don't get it.
With the confirmation of the hybrid powertrain not being standard, this will in a way make it like the optional "V8" that BMW and MB offer in this class. If we have the standard V6 competing with the 535 and E350, then the hybrid model with 400hp can be an alternative to compete with the V8 equipped models. With the hybrid powertrain having V8 power, it will be like killing two birds with one stone: Offering V8 power and a hybrid to compete with the hybrid/alternative fuel models and the V8 models.
I doubt Acura will offer a 4 cylinder in the RL like BMW does with the 5-Series and Audi with the A6.
#2785
Moderator
Yes. Now I'd like some specific examples of this; throwing this statement against the wall doesn't make it true. I've been in plenty of Acuras (including RL's), and I've spent some time in an Audi 6 (that I almost bought) as well as more than a little time in a BMW 5 series. Acura fit and finish is not even in the same league as those two.
#2786
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And in fact with the brand differentiation that Acura wants to make with Honda, calling the next RL the Legend again would be a step backwards, no matter how much we like the Legend and Integra nameplates.
#2787
AZ Community Team
Yes. Now I'd like some specific examples of this; throwing this statement against the wall doesn't make it true. I've been in plenty of Acuras (including RL's), and I've spent some time in an Audi 6 (that I almost bought) as well as more than a little time in a BMW 5 series. Acura fit and finish is not even in the same league as those two.
1) Carbon Fiber driveshaft on RL
2) Better Electrical Connectors on RL from what I've seen (BMW still use some POS connectors, not all but some).
3) Electrical sub-systems (HPFP, turbo's, oil coolers,.... all BMW quality problems)
4) Electrical switches (Honda still rules here, but I will admit the iDrive knob feels excellent).
#2788
AZ Community Team
^ should be ![Tomato](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/tomato.gif)
3) Better engine sub-systems (HPFP, turbo's, oil coolers,.... all BMW quality problems)
![Tomato](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/tomato.gif)
3) Better engine sub-systems (HPFP, turbo's, oil coolers,.... all BMW quality problems)
#2789
Moderator
Again, I have the same response as 2). Even if it is universally "true" I'd gladly concede this point in favor of an interior that's put together properly (no misaligned parts such as the piss poor installation of AC vents on the 3G TL), no prematurely fading and cracking dashes (again 3G TL), no mismatched body panels (WDP especially), no brakes made by fisher price, and no exploding transmissions.
#2790
Senior Moderator
![Dunno](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/dunno.gif)
#2792
NSX = Halo Car
RL = Flagship
If the NSX were the flagship, then the majority of Acura's lineup would be sports cars. The flagship exemplifies the overall brand image which is why the RL is the flagship. The NSX is a tangent, showcasing the technological feats that the brand is capable of, while not committing themselves to introducing all of those features in all of their cars.
RL = Flagship
If the NSX were the flagship, then the majority of Acura's lineup would be sports cars. The flagship exemplifies the overall brand image which is why the RL is the flagship. The NSX is a tangent, showcasing the technological feats that the brand is capable of, while not committing themselves to introducing all of those features in all of their cars.
Sure according to Wiki:
Flagship
Automobiles
The term flagship is also used to describe the top or main vehicle manufactured by automotive marque. These vehicles are usually, but not always, the most expensive, prestigious and largest vehicles in the line-up. The term is most often applied to sedans and usually only those manufactured by luxury automobile marques. The Mercedes-Benz S-Class is one example, and the BMW 7-Series is another.
The term "halo car" is often used in automotive marketing and journalism to refer to the flagship vehicle. The term is derived from the halo effect, the tendency for a favorable trait to influence the perception of subsequent traits in a sequence of interpretations; it appears to have been used as early as 1938.
My point is that Acura can't keep a car in the line up that doesn't sell. It amounts to poor business. They will eventually have to get rid of that dog. BMW sold 11,300 7's in the US last year...again, how many RL's did Acura sell?
Flagship
Automobiles
The term flagship is also used to describe the top or main vehicle manufactured by automotive marque. These vehicles are usually, but not always, the most expensive, prestigious and largest vehicles in the line-up. The term is most often applied to sedans and usually only those manufactured by luxury automobile marques. The Mercedes-Benz S-Class is one example, and the BMW 7-Series is another.
The term "halo car" is often used in automotive marketing and journalism to refer to the flagship vehicle. The term is derived from the halo effect, the tendency for a favorable trait to influence the perception of subsequent traits in a sequence of interpretations; it appears to have been used as early as 1938.
My point is that Acura can't keep a car in the line up that doesn't sell. It amounts to poor business. They will eventually have to get rid of that dog. BMW sold 11,300 7's in the US last year...again, how many RL's did Acura sell?
#2793
AZ Community Team
Your opinion but IMO it's not even debatable, BMW still uses some poor electrical connectors. However they have also come a long way from the 870's/80's/90's.
On Audi's I still hear and see of some occasional systematic problems. MB have really improved as well, some fo hte 90's were a very black period for them. BMW has come the furthest of the big three Germans in terms of reliability and quality.
Right...Acura avoids these issues by leaving most of this stuff off their car. That's how they're "better"; got it. And again, don't just try to focus on BMW (under some vain assumption that I'm a BMW fan boy), let's hear the rest. This whole thing strikes me as an assertion based on facts not in evidence.
Again, I have the same response as 2). Even if it is universally "true" I'd gladly concede this point in favor of an interior that's put together properly (no misaligned parts such as the piss poor installation of AC vents on the 3G TL), no prematurely fading and cracking dashes (again 3G TL), no mismatched body panels (WDP especially), no brakes made by fisher price, and no exploding transmissions.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 01-25-2012 at 03:47 PM.
#2794
Senior Moderator
![rofl](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/rofl.gif)
#2795
Moderator
My brother's had 5 BMW's which I've worked on 4 of them. I also know a BMW tech who's been wrenching them since 1977 (he drives a E32 7 series), both of us agree there is still room for improvement on BMW electrical connectors. I recently replaced the HID on a E60 530i. There are four electrical connectors, two are very nice (nice plating, crimping, O rings). Two are POS.
Your opinion but IMO it's not even debatable, BMW still uses some poor electrical connectors.
Your opinion but IMO it's not even debatable, BMW still uses some poor electrical connectors.
I can just imagine it now - "Yes Mr. Salesman, that 550i is fabulous. It's beautiful, powerful, comfortable, handles like a dream, but dammit I just can't deal with those electrical connectors. I'm going to go buy a Honda instead."
You're throwing in the 3G TL into the mix which I already posted is not up to 2G RL standards. The 2G RL's are built in Japan and have wonderful plastic, fit/finish, leather, and other quality materials. It's few downgrades are the use of mixed fake and real wood, that IMO is a nono. AFAIK, there have never been any RL 5AT problems outside of norm.
Audi's MMI system is head and shoulders above Acuras telematics and nav in the RL. The lone exception may be the RL's ability to handle DVD-A (and even that's debatable given the status of the format). I drove an '11 335 for a week as a loaner recently and the newest iDrive is spectacular compared to the Acura system. Again, DVD-A excepted, it's not even in the race.
#2796
AZ Community Team
Let's assume this is "truth" for a moment. Does it really warrant the comment of - decontenting the RL "down" to the level of a 5, A6, etc. Be honest here...set aside the bias. Honestly? Electrical connectors?
I can just imagine it now - "Yes Mr. Salesman, that 550i is fabulous. It's beautiful, powerful, comfortable, handles like a dream, but dammit I just can't deal with those electrical connectors. I'm going to go buy a Honda instead."
I can just imagine it now - "Yes Mr. Salesman, that 550i is fabulous. It's beautiful, powerful, comfortable, handles like a dream, but dammit I just can't deal with those electrical connectors. I'm going to go buy a Honda instead."
![Tongue](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
I think you really don't understand how much some people don't want to own unreliable luxury cars. I've watched this with many a Audi owner (some who sued Audi). Three soccer mom's I know went from ML's to MDX's for that simple reason.
A good friend's mother-in-law who's had 3 S-classes going back to the early 80's went over to Lexus, and is amazed on how reliable it is. People generally don't know what the components are in their cars until they go wrong, but they cetainly hear from friends and magazines about those problems wheither it be a Honda 5AT or a BMW with wearing cylinder walls with certain fuel mixes.
Right, so you're going to say the RL is "better" than the 5, A6, etc. because of a rash of (solved) problems on ONE version of the E60 5 series (the 535). One version. Never mind the 528. Never mind the 545 and 550. That makes sense. How does that relate to Audi, btw? Oh, and again, how does that justify the notion that the RL would be coming "down" to their levels?
Audi's MMI system is head and shoulders above Acuras telematics and nav in the RL. The lone exception may be the RL's ability to handle DVD-A (and even that's debatable given the status of the format). I drove an '11 335 for a week as a loaner recently and the newest iDrive is spectacular compared to the Acura system. Again, DVD-A excepted, it's not even in the race.
Neighbor had a 2006 A8, I didn't think much of MMI system it had. He got rid of the A8 (hanger queen in the worst way). Another neighbor just got a 2012 A8L, I'm curious as to how MMI has changed.
Last edited by Legend2TL; 01-25-2012 at 04:14 PM.
#2797
Moderator
You jumped in to defend his post. I directed my question to him, not you. You made it your problem now.
Depends on the Audi interior, there are tiers and it shows sometimes (just like my point of the 3G TL not being up to a 2G RL). Audi make great interiors in general, the A6 and E-class are slightly better than both the 5 and RL IMO (carpet, leather, plastic, trim,...)
The RL has not had a tech update lately, but the latest MDX/tech is a much better system. I was in my brother's friend who just bought one and it rocks. Your Audi MMI statement may apply to the RL but not the MDX. Same goes for the Pilot, a friend just bought a 2012 EX-L and the Nav/tech systems are amazing to say the least.
Neighbor had a 2006 A8, I didn't think much of MMI system it had. He got rid of the A8 (hanger queen in the worst way). Another neighbor just got a 2012 A8L, I'm curious as to how MMI has changed.
The RL has not had a tech update lately, but the latest MDX/tech is a much better system. I was in my brother's friend who just bought one and it rocks. Your Audi MMI statement may apply to the RL but not the MDX. Same goes for the Pilot, a friend just bought a 2012 EX-L and the Nav/tech systems are amazing to say the least.
Neighbor had a 2006 A8, I didn't think much of MMI system it had. He got rid of the A8 (hanger queen in the worst way). Another neighbor just got a 2012 A8L, I'm curious as to how MMI has changed.
Last edited by ttribe; 01-25-2012 at 04:21 PM.
#2798
Moderator
Just for giggles and grins, let's bring in some third-party comparisons:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n/viewall.html
http://reviews.cnet.com/4504-4_7-0.h...41&tag=compare
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...s/viewall.html
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n/viewall.html
http://reviews.cnet.com/4504-4_7-0.h...41&tag=compare
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...s/viewall.html
#2799
AZ Community Team
Oh good grief, you don't have the foggiest IDEA what I "understand" and don't. We're talking about LUXURY FLAGSHIP cars here and you seem to be rolling out the assertion that the average consumer is going to choose an RL over a 5 or an E or an A6 because of electrical connectors.
![Tongue](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
It boils down to reliability and quality, and how electrical connections are poor in some BMW's. That in turn may affect quality on certain circuits, which in turn affects reliability. Hence some folks really don't want unreliable cars whether they be luxury or not.
![Tomato](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/tomato.gif)
Handling of the SH-AWD
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n/viewall.html
I'll even throw in some real people who drove them and compared them as well
![Tongue](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
![Roll Eyes](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
Last edited by Legend2TL; 01-25-2012 at 04:35 PM.
#2800
Moderator
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
Handling of the SH-AWD
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n/viewall.html
I'll even throw in some real people who drove them and compared them as well![Tongue](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n/viewall.html
I'll even throw in some real people who drove them and compared them as well
![Tongue](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
I did bring up the TL and then backed off when you called me on it. I thought that was fair.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
Last edited by ttribe; 01-25-2012 at 04:53 PM.