mrdeeno

but the difference is that the previous GS sold moderately well for 8 years, and the 5-series and E-class also sold moderately well for however long they were out also...so these companies weren't in a rush to "fix" it. The 1G RL was a snooze and sold poorly, yet Acura took their time leisurely replacing it. You'd think the time they had to replace it, they probably could have engineered 3 different RWD platforms and 2 V8 engines.

bottom line, if they have a slow seller (ie unsuccessful model), they should revamp it as quick as possible, not let it languish in the market to erode the brand image.


That's what I find ironic about the "tech" theme they put on. They may have several months to a year lead on a "cool" tech feature (DVD-a, nav-traffic, SH-AWD), but then when the competitors come out with the same stuff (and more), Acura just sits there. Even the MDX doesnt' have keyless start...but a Nissan Versa does, WTF?!?

If they want to keep on using their "tech" headline, they better do a better job of staying AHEAD of the tech curve.

I only partially agree...I think Honda should resurrect the brand image of an "engine manufacturer", as opposed to "value-full sensible family cars".

Acura should work on its own SEPARATE image from Honda.

I thought certain engines used a chain (i4 engines), but only their V6 engines used belts.

mrdeeno

Have you ever wondered if the guys over at Honda put out this information just to give us something else to talk about besides constantly bashing and criticizing them for moving so slow?

I mean, excluding the hardcore fanboys, most people here are in agreement that the Acura boat is sailing into the blue without a captain or a compass (or navigation system). And as long as people are discussing what is currently wrong with Acura, it will turn potential buyers off from the brand, so the solution is to "feed" information to us to throw us off, no matter how unrealistic: Acura competing with Maybach/Bentley and skipping the V8 and going to a V10.

We all know how secretive Honda is with their future products...why would this one guy give away these future product strategies, if not just to get us off of criticizing what they are currently doing?

SpicyMikey

That has definitely occurred to me.

The other thought is that these guys (John Watts, etc.) are loose cannons and "Honda" can't control them from dreaming out loud.

Either way, both of the comments you sited would seem far flung even for Toyota, let alone Honda.

Edward'TLS

Your point is very true. Should have offered AWD as an option. AWD is totally useless in the ever-Summer states. It only adds to the cost of the car, and degrades performance, fuel economy and reliability. But Acura is all screwed by not having RWD, and 300hp is too much on a FWD chassis to maintain high performance driving dynamics and driverability. Detuning the 300hp only degrades the car to the TL class level. But by having 300hp or above, it has to be AWD because RWD doesn't exist. So it's back to square one : a lose-lose situation. A winning scenario would be 300hp RWD as the base car, and with SH-AWD as one of the many available options.

alex2364

The RSX/Integra is dead all around the world. They stopped making the Integra in Japan, just like they did in the US. Also the reason why the Civic Si is so similar to the RSX-S is because they knew they were killing the RSX. They basically replaced the RSX-S with the Civic Si.

F23A4

Not to further jack this thread but, Honda should have rolled the RSX into Honda showrooms as the Honda Integra, and maintained the current gen Civic as a sedan only. The current Civic sedan lineup (DX thru Si) could have easily coexisted with the Integra (base, Type-S and maybe Type R) but.....just my though.

lumpulus

Wanna bet?

Ken1997TL

I have my 50 bucks waiting right here

SpicyMikey

I'm laughing and would take a piece of that bet unless Hyundai breaks away and creates a new brand.

History proves that lux buyers don't want to rub elbows with people buying "every man" cars. I even think Mercedes is pushing it a bit with the $31k C class. I'm sure they loose a few sales on their $400k SLR because those buyers don't like the association made with "cheap" $30k Mercedes C's. The only reason they probably get away with it is because of the hugely powerful brand and image that 3 pointed star has. However, it took a hundred years to get the brand to this point. Hyundai will fail if they try to sell and service a $10k Accent in the same place as a $50k+ luxury sedan. They will need to rebrand.

Having said that, there's no indication that Hyundai execs are stupid, so, they probably realize that and have a marketing plan. Competition is good for the customer. I'm hoping they do it.

BraveDemon

Well said. I agree that Hyundai has to create a lux division if they truly want to compete with MB/BMW for sales from Lux buyers.

With that being said, I took Hyundai's statement of targeting MB and BMW to mean that they want to bring their vehicles up to par with MB and BMW in terms of quality and performance; not necessarily of sweeping in stealing away sales from MB and BMW (immediately anyway, since that will take some time).

And I think the whole point made about "how no one is laughing at Hyundai claiming to target BMW and Lexus (and MB)" is because whereas Honda seems to speak out of their ass, Hyundai speaks and delivers.

What do I mean? Can someone say full production RWD platform? Or how about Full RWD Platform capable of producing multiple vehicles? Honda hasn't said a word of such a thing. Hyundai has and well, in about 6 months they'll be launching it in the states and in a year we may see a coupe variation state side.

And what about *gasp* V8? Hyundai's said it and I believe that Tau engine or whatever code name it goes by actually exists and will be out for production in the next year or two. Honda has uttered "V8"as well. They said they want to skip production v8s and jump to v10s.

So yeah. I'm with Ken1997TL. I'll place 50 bucks on that bet as well... cause I dont think that many ppl are laughing at Hyundai.... Honda... well thats a different story.

SiGGy

I own a TL with a manual transmission and I'm disappointed...

Honda just can't build a good transmission...

or umm dash that doesn't fade
leather that's any good

Do I need to keep going?

Costco

The reliability of Honda transmissions has been garbage as of recent times but undoubtedly the shift feel of their MTs is always crisp and smooth. I agree with the poor leather and dash fading though, I'd also like to throw in MISMATCHING REAR BUMPERS! Luckily my WDP 2G has a vinyl overlay on the rear bumper though, from far away you can't tell the difference, but up close it looks funky.

F23A4

Apparently, there are Accord 6MT guys on driveaccord.net that would agree with you. LINK

vishnus11

Ever heard of a Honda S2000 - typically regarded as having the world's best shifter.

The TSX has a beautiful gearbox as well - nice slick, well-oiled shifts.

Please don't generalize about an entire car company based on your personal experience.

dom

What's the problem with TL MT's?

Ken1997TL

IMO, the clutch. It has a weird pickup. Same goes for the Accord V6 6 speed

odessa

it seem to be somewhat common issue with 3rd gear in M/T, I heard similar complaints from Civic owners (never had this problem myself on any Honda's I owned). Common solution is to replace Honda M/T fluid with GM syncromesh or Amsoil M/T fluid, apparently it solves the problem.

Trackruner228

iTrader: (1)

I know this is an old thread but I am reading for first time, but is this for real? I think Acura should aim for Lexus then work its way up. Babysteps. Although I guess this is what they want the new NSX to compete so who knows maybe it means they are going to introduce some new engines.

mrdeeno

Honda/Acura can do a lot of things, and I would even put being able to compete with Bentley/Maybach in a single generation up there with things they can do.

But CAN do and DOING are two VERY different things...and based on recent trends, they choose not to do what they can, even when it comes to putting more effort into competing with Lexus or Infiniti.

afici0nad0

^

+1

Trackruner228

iTrader: (1)

I agree but the problem is that cant happen over night. Acura has already said in the new few years they are going make some changes its just a question of what changes and how long? We just have to wait and see. I really hope that this statement means they are just going next NSX that good. I really do hope they start doing instead of saying they can.

mrdeeno

It won't happen overnight, but it can happen quickly, within 1 generation if they want.

But the questions still are:
1) does it make business sense to take such a risk to do it quickly or to take a slow approach?

2) Do they have the balls?


I think Honda's answer sheet would be:

1) No. Honda's business focuses on MINIMAL risks (although in the auto business, not taking much risk is a risky move in itself).

2) The answer isn't "No". The answer is "HELL No".

Trackruner228

iTrader: (1)

^^ I agree honda isnt going to let there quality slip which might be a good thing. I mean toyota put a new 6spd auto in the camry and look how shitty it is, and same with BMW they put a new tranny in the X3 and its not good either. So they need to find the right blend of speed without loosing quality control. We are just going to have to wait and see what happens in 08 for the TL and tsx.

GreenMonster

Yeah, the CL 6spd has the same thing... H/A tries to "dumb down" the clutch with the clutch dampener, dual mass clutch, and god knows what else...

I know the S2k guys like to remove the CDD too...

It's almost like they want the MT's to be as un-sporty as possible

GreenMonster

I've been waiting for 5 years already, so Acura is going to have to excuse me if I think their talk is just lip service... I've heard the "want to be a sportier brand" talk for years...

What they say, and what they do have been 2 different things...

dom

And even then, 3500 to 4000 lb FWD bias AWD sedans based on the Honda Accord is hardly anyone's idea of sporty.

Moog-Type-S

Honda/Acura has been "all talk" and nothing more than that.
Meanwhile the competition is passing them by.

SpicyMikey

Honda hasn't seemed very excited about the Acura line for years. They don't look like their hearts in this fight. That's really a more amazing fact. They are fierce and successful competitors with the Honda line but just seem to dink around with Acura.

dreem1er

iTrader: (2)

i just hope the their v8 doesn't come as under powered as their v6.....

dom

V8? Do you know something we don't? And I would hardly call their 3.5L V6 underpowered.

Edward'TLS

Only if the 3.5L-V6 finds home in a big AWD sedan, then the car would be underpowered. The best combination would be V6 for the TSX, V8 for the TL, and V10 for the RL. Then the words "underpower" and "Acura" will never be seen in the same sentence.

Moog-Type-S

Honda isn't exactly "fierce and successful" with the "Honda" line either.

For example compared to Nissan and Toyota.....Honda does not offer a full-size truck, or even a small pick-up...Honda offers a niche Ridgeline. Don't get me wrong the Ridgeline is pretty neat, but it does not compete directly.

Toyota & Nissan are more "head to head" competitors, while Honda competes in only their selected categories...the competition and the consumer be damned.

Moog-Type-S

put down the bong.

BraveDemon

Everyone is making a big fuss over the rumor that the new TSX will offer an AWD Type S drive train based off the RDX. Again as I stated earlier, a FWD biased AWD system is simply not sporty. Audi realized it and in their next gen A4, they've moved the Motor back behind the front axle and are making their Quattro system RWD biased.

Not to mention that I'm not thrilled about a Turbo I4 in an SH-AWD system that will only pump out 250ish ponies from the factory. I mean I was initially really excited to hear that the next TSX may have an AWD option - but I was hoping for somewhere in the ball park of around 280-290 HP. The SH-AWD TSX curb weight will easily be well over 3500 lbs, which will be a good 350-400 lbs heavier than an STi that offers 55 more ponies.

Yeah yeah. I know "Acura is a luxury brand. Subaru is a piece of $&*# compared to Acura."

But being a person who has both had an 06 STi and currently own an 03 TL-S dollar for dollar, the Subie was a hell of a lot more sporty than the 03 TL-s and any other non NSX Acura that I have ever driven.

GreenMonster

I've always found it "interesting" that the new accord would come out, and then the acura models based on the accord would come out...

98 Accord intro, 2nd Gen CL and TL intro...
03 Accord intro, 04 TL intro, 05 RL intro...

They start with the bread an butter accord and then let the Acura brand get the "leftovers". Sure tech items like SH-AWD trickle down from the higher priced cars, but the basic platform trickles upwards... Not a good thing if H/A is worried about brand image IMHO.

I wasn't suprised when a 98 accord parked next to my 03 Acura, and the rooflines were identical...

I've been saying for years that my Acura CL is nothing more than a pimped out Accord... and it is... and most of acura's line up is accord or euroaccord based...

MayBack and Bentley

Moog-Type-S

Back-asswards.
Acura needs to be #1 and Honda #2....but alas...no.
What line-up got VCM first?....hmmmmm

infantry

I dont see Acura as a second tier luxury brand . They market their cars to the young professionals out their in the world . They offer quality and affordability with luxury . Whats not to like about a company who thinks about the guy who makes 60000 to 100000 and gives them a kick ass product with out breaking his wallet to keep up with jones of the world . I think people are stuck on nameplates to much, Ive seen a lot of so-so products from lexus, BMW and Infiniti . Damm I think the new Caddys are nicer than anything the others have to offer, so everything is subjective .

sadlerau

Are the base model Audi's sporty? Don't think so. Have you driven an A-spec RL? I'm from Australia, and my Legend I believe has a firmer suspension than the RL, more akin to the A-spec set-up, and that is most definitely sporty. The Legand has an excellent balance between sporty and luxury. Fiddle with the tyre pressures and you have a large sedan that handles with a RWD feel. In another thread, I tracked my Legend at the same time my friend tracked his 05 STi, and HE was the one struggling to stay up in the corners. No contest on the straights though

If you haven't experienced SH-AWD you cannot appreciate how well it performs. "All" the RL needs to be a Sports Sedan is another 100 HP and the right suspension settings.

Are you listening Acura, WE WANT PERFORMANCE CHOICES.

unlemming

That sounds like a call for Comptech

F23A4

I think you just insulted our intelligence with that one. Extolling the virtues that have help to establish Lexus, BMW and Infiniti as upscale marques (i.e.: the availability of mid-full size V8 RWD powered luxury cars) does not mean that those of us who admonish Acura for its resistance to this concept are brand whores to the foremention marques. Acura vehicles may present respectable value but, the luxury car segment tends to not be value driven.

The TL does slot pretty well against the IS, E90 (328i/330i) and G35 while the RL slots respectably against the GS350 AWD, 535iX and M35x. However the other three brands offer higher tiers to which more discriminating buyers in this segment can opt into (notably the GS450h, 550i, M45 if not the LS, 7 series and likely next gen Q). The only notable so-so cars from these brands that I can immediately recall: ES250 (clearly a Camry XLE V6 in Lexus guise), 318i (thrashy motor) and J30/M30 (weird styling). But those models are pretty much ancient history.

While Acura, Honda and assorted Hondaphiles may be comfortable with the notion of a Honda Accord V6 based flagship for their luxury lineup, the rest of the world (enthusiasts and non-enthusiasts alike) know different. NOTE: I AM the proud owner of an 07 Honda Accord EX-L V6 w/navi so clearly, I have nothing against it.