I really like the JL Audio 300/4 75Wx4 amp. It is pretty much everything I look for in an amp:

Variable High/Low Pass crossover
>108.5 S/N Ratio
<.03 THD
Relatively small dimensions at 2.5" high for back seat.
Direct connections so no need for spade or ring terminals.
Great reviews from others.

The only problem is the price. Where it sits now it is hard to even get one on ebay for less than $320, and online stores are even higher. Much more and it comes into Zapco/US Amps territory.

I was also looking at PPI's DCX 300.4 but it is a bit larger than I'd like on my rear seat at 16"+ long. Also the Soundstream TRA680.4 but I can't find anyone that even has one to sell.

Any other alternatives that are a bit cheaper?

 

What price are you getting on the DCX 300.4?

 

I believe it comes in right under $200

 

That PPI is not fully-regulated in the power supply like the 300/4. Having had one of those in the TSX, I think you need to swallow hard and buy one.

They are worth the price. It is far superior to the Soundstream, but the specs tell you almost nothing.

What car are you working with?

 

Actually this is my nissan sentra. The only other problem I've run across with JL is that they make you buy them retail and not online to get the warranty so I'd have to pay even more money to buy one here at BoomerMcCloud or some other auto store because they are selling them for $400+.

Been doing TONS of research on amps today and most of the ones people recommend are way out of budget (arc, zapco, audison, etc).

I don't need a ton of power 50Wx4 - 75Wx4 of good clean power should do fine. What do you guys think of Phoenix Gold's Latest amps or ARC's KAR 400.4 series? I've been out of the audio loop for a while. The last time I was really big into it, the PPI art series was the big rage.

 

Many, many companies do that with their products. (Guess retailers don't feel your pain : )

DLS makes an amp called the Classic CA-41. I installed it into the TSX in place of the 300. Not quite as much power, but it sounds very good and has better signal processing features. It has dynamic headroom, which the 300 does not, and it goes for less than $300.

 

Thanks for the suggestion, doing some research on DLS right now.

Any reason you got rid of the JL 300, unless I missed a previous thread?

Also do you know of any online vendors that carry these lines? Brands such as DLS, ARC, etc seem to be quite rare in many online stores....

 

Neil, in case you haven't noticed from the orange tag under my name, I AM a retailer. (I think you may have missed several threads : ) DLS isn't readily available online.

I had bought the 300/4 because it fit under the seat of a 2004 TSX (with a little work). (Thread 1.) Then about 6 months later I opened my shop, and became a DLS dealer after hearing two of their IASCA cars at CES. (Thread 2 : )

Turns out the DLS Reference RA-40 and CA-41 also fit (I have tried them both) and since the TSX is a demo car, I am putting in what we actually have in stock so we can demonstrate them. Nothing against the 300/4, I think it's a fine amp and I obviously recommend it, but I took it out because demonstrating an amp I don't carry is kinda silly.

The JL "slash" series of amps use a power supply approach that was used by Jeff Scoon's products when he was at PPI and at xtant (actually, he was a founder of both firms). They use stiff power supply regulation. What this means is that the amp makes the same power with input voltage of 11 to 16 volts. (That's good). It also means that the amp has 0 dynamic headroom - it doesn't have the ability to put out any more power for short musical bursts than it can for longer periods. What that means is that the 300/4 is 75 w x 4 at 12V, at 14 V, RMS, and peak (actually it probably puts out a little more power than its rating).

Loosely regulated power supplies are much more common, and are used by almost everyone, including DLS. With loosely regulated power supplies the amp puts out more power when the car is running and the voltage goes up from 12 to 14 or so. Also, caps can help these loosely-regulated amps, but not the stiff-regulation amps. The loosely-regulated amps are more sensitive to batteries, caps, power wire gauge, and alternator output (please note that I said MORE sensitve, not that the others are entirely INSENSITIVE. Amps are amps).

The "slash" amps have another design feature that I personally think is brilliant - but must be taken into account by a system designer. The "smart" power supply adjusts the internal voltage to make rated power depending on the speaker impedance that exists across the speaker terminals on turn-on (it checks). That's why the amp makes 75w pc into 4 ohms, or into 2 ohms, or into 6 ohms. This is good and bad. It's good because the manufacturer only has to make a power supply, and a heat sink, and output devices, that can handle 75W.

Many amps double their power into 2 ohms. That requires bigger power supplies, bigger heat sinks, and bigger output transistors. By JL using this technology, they saved a LOT of money in making the amp and even in shipping the amp (it's lighter with a smaller heat sink). But if you're used to amps with dynamic headroom, or with more power into 2 ohms or into 4 ohms bridged, you won't find that in "slash" amps. (Thread 3 : )

According to DEI's published info, only one of the PPI big amps is stiffly regulated in the PS, and now that MTX owns xtant, I've heard that most of their amps are not stiffly regulated anymore either. I THINK Zapco is but they suck at talking about what they do.

Either approach can make a great-sounding amp, it is largely a difference in philosophy, but it is a difference that you should know about if you are considering a "slash" amp.

Online reatilers are a terrible place for high-end manufacturers to sell their producst, and many of them avoice online retailers for this reason. (Thread 4 : ) If after this much sarcasm you aren't too pissed at me, thought, you can buy one from me.

BTW, DLS had 5 cars at Spring Break nationals in Daytona. 4 firsts and a second in SQ.

 

I'm not sure why higher end manufacturers shy away from the net so much, since it is a vehicle to showcase their products, their demo vehicles, for users to get technical support, and to download information so it would just make since to sell products online. Selling directly would probably also increase earnings potential because they wouldn't have to sell wholesale to a secondhand distributor, they could keep prices somewhat under retail specs and make a larger profit margin themselves, not even by selling to second hand distributors online but even through selling through their own website.

Yeah I went to the DLS usa website and noticed their SQ places, impressive. What in a real world setting does say a <.1% THD from a DLS amp compare to say a <.03% from the JL? Or does rating the THD with a 1watt load mean very little in the grand scheme of things?

Is the High Pass variable on the classic series? What is the difference between the classic and reference dls, their stats seem to be quite similar so there must be something internal that I am missing. Also I can't tell from the photos on the dls website but are the power/ground/speaker connectors utilized through connectors like a spade or though a direct wire insertion?

Sarcasm is welcome What are your prices on the DLS including shipping costs and do they allow the warranty through an online retailer such as yourself?

Thanks

 

Glad to help however I can.


The reason (right or wrong) that high end manufacturers shy away from the net is supposed to be that if your brand equity depnds on your product sounding good and performing reliably, then it's very risky to let DIY installers of dubious skill dictate whether your brand is perceived as good or not. IT's hard to give up all influence on the conusmer's experience of your brand.

I don't want to get into a discussion of the fact that some DIY installers are good (some are) and some shops suck (some do). It's an imperfect system. But a manufacturer has some influence over its dealers - it can supply training material and training seminars and it can presume a certain level of skill is present when supplying tech help over the phone.

Trying to take a noob shade-tree installer from zero to good by reading the manual or over the phone in a tech call usually doesn't work. Not enough shared baseline.

There are some companies that have decide to bypass the distribution channels and go direct to the consumer - elemental comes to mind - and that has strengths and weaknesses too.


THD is really pretty inaudible. Tube amps, which sound great to many people, have 2-3% THD.

But harmonics don't sound bad neccesarily. Harmonics are signals at a multiple or a fraction of the fundamental note, and all acoustic musical instruments generate harmonics, as do most good sounding electronic ones. DO a little added in isn't the worst thing. (Some EE's think that the only reason that tube amps are preferred is because they generate this interference. They're wrong, but you may hear that, especially from guitar amp makers.)

There is another kind of distortion called intermodulation distortion. It is a signal created by the interaction of two fundamentals. It is NOT natural sounding at all, but it is not mandated by the Feds to mention with home stere and as such gets little mention with any stereo amps, car or home. But it is VERY audible.

The problem is that the method used to control THD is called negative feedback. As a general statement, using a lot of global negative feedback lowers your THD - and RAISES your IMD.

Years ago a friend of mine and I worked at a stereo store, and we sold Fisher low-end rack systems in the home department. WEll, McIntosh, the mid-high-end home audio company, came to town and did a clinic on home audio, and they would test your equipment for you.

My friend took a Fisher receiver rated at 100W x 2 at .001% THD to the clinic. I assumed the .001 THD was a lie, but I was wrong. It measured at those specs - and with 9% Intermodulation distortion. This is why it looked great on a spec sheet - but sounded like total crap (which it did).

So here's another observation. You can't tell SHIT about how a high-end audio product sounds by looking at specs on the net, and all that looking at those specs does is make you more comfortable about making a decision that you will be making in the dark anyway. If you don't hear it, you don't know. We can hear a LOT more than we can measure, and we don't know what a lot of measurements mean, and it's still slightly more art than science, whether we like it or not.

OK, about DLS.

The Classic HP is variable starting at 15 Hz. The 4-channel amp has one set of channels that can go HP, and another that has both. You can run the amp as a HP Front and as a Band-Pass R with your HP filter anywhere from 15 HZ.

The difference between the Reference and the Classic are not made clear in any of their pubs or website. I actually ahve a list of questions into the engeineers in Sweden to see what I get back, but here's what I've observed so far.

The pots on the Reference feel different and more expensive. I suspect they are higher quality audio pots.

The Reference seems to have more capacitance and is less vulnerable to voltage variations than the Classic.

The RMS rating seems to be a bit more conservative on the Reference, so I think that it has a bigger power supply. I hear a difference in SQ, but I dont want to try to commit to why exactly. I do know that there's like a 45% difference in cost, and if you don't want to buy a 300/4 at those prices, you won't like the Reference costs.

I am NOT an online retailer. I am a regular retailer. I occasionally take care of forum members who want something which I sell, but I don't do the e-tailing thing (as you have noted, many brands don't allow me to do so - and DLS would pitch a fit if they read this). You might want to check out avincar.com to see what we do. The warranty doesn't vary with pro installation or not. Shipping costs are what they are (when someone eats shipping it means they built it into the original price: )

 

wow those were some long posts

 

Hell yeah but man do You learn aLOT by reading them. Eld, again you Are the man..

I would also be VERY interested in knowing what those engineers say. As I bought the Ultimates and wonder daily if I spent way too much for something I could have gotten with the Classic or reference series.

BUT AS you ALL know.. I lOve my DLS System and it sounds amazing. Only problem is that i turn up the bass ALOT here in FL and well today on a hot day the sub amp A3 went into protection. It was RED HOT when I opened the trunk, might have just popped the fuse though.. I haven't looked yet.

Other then that I LOVE the system.. Might need to get another amp though so I don't have the fuse problem when turning up my bass.

Ryan

 

hey eld, some of the dls amps remind me of some of the genesis amps (dual mono amp for example) and some of the speakers remind me of dynaudio/morel. a case of different engineers finding similar answers to similar qustions, or some cross-pollination? i am sitting here chilling with some Cal Tjader on the all tube Manley Labs/Meadowlark system in my cave, and I agree that ther are major differences in sound between tube and solid state amps. hopefully i can find a tube amp (hybrid perhaps?) for my next system. jps

 

Forgot to add

I think the reason that most manufacturers also don't sell online is that IF they sell for a cheaper price online, then all the retail stores are going to be pissed.

Just my $.02

Ryan

 

Thanks for all the good info.

Yeah I know it is better to test drive the speakers and such but as you put it on your website too often all you see are wall mounts in any audio store, rarely you see demo vehicles carrying every brand a store has to offer so you either go by what something sounds like in a 3000sq ft space in a wall or read what others have reviewed based on installing the equipment themselves. I've been impressed sitting in demo vehicles (been in clarion, ppi, mbquart, boston, rf, etc vehicles) but way too often they don't represent real world car audio examples, too often they are decked out with $100,000 worth of equipment and are more based on the .1% of the enthusiasts.

I'll definetely be considering the DLS, CT isn't exactly a hotbed of car audio action so many of the more reputable brands don't even have retailers here to see anything in action or even talk to someone about these brands.

 

My vote would be to go with memphis.

http://memphiscaraudio.com/products/details.asp?id=13

 

From some comments I've read in some English-language car audio mag article reprints DLS used to go with Genesis amps and they were just a speaker company. I guess DLS went into amps and Genesis went to speakers about the same time. Honestly, I don't know why...I can say that the DLS Ultimate series look a LOT like the Genesis top of the line amps - but are NOT made in England. Looking at the Dyne and Morel drivers, I can say that DLS mids and tweets in the high end have some design similarities, and I don't know what that deal is either.

 

I just got a 300/4 from a friend for real cheap so I pulled my memphis power reference 4 channlel and to be honest it "sounds" almost as good. Its for sale for $175 obo shipped if you are interested. Does 70 x 4 at 2 ohms and 50 x 4 at 4.

 

US AMPS 4300X 4x75 Raw and very clean power.