Mborkow31

Hey Guys -

New to the site and a novice at best. Local install shop I'm going to told me that a signal processor (such as the JL cleansweep) isn't necessary for my install. I'm not doing anything too fancy. Replacing all speakers with Rockford punches, Rockford 50w x4 channel amp and I'm using 2 old Polk DX subs and a JBL 300 watt amp I had from back in the day to complete the setup. I'm NOT replacing the head unit.

When I broached the topic for a signal processor, he said he could just use line level adapters and that would be sufficient. I called Crutchfield and they essentially told me that the install guy probably new what he was doing and that if he wasn't trying to upsell me to a processor, that it wasn't truly necessary and that he can pick up the full range signal without it.

06 TL w/o Nav.

I would appreciate any feedback you guy can lend. Given that this isn't a high end system, I guess my question is will this thing sound good without the processor?

pohljm

It will sound fine and then you can add a processor later. I would recommend using all that 4 channel amp bridged to the front components and keeping rears and center channel on the OEM amp. No need to upgrade rear speakers.

abirvalg

well, cleansweep is unlikely to be needed, for it's only a 4 channel AutoEQ device with no TA function
hence, not much of an improvement over factory sound

a good processor however can make a real difference in both stage and sound quality

i'd ask the installer what other DSP's he had worked with besides cleansweep
and look for a more experienced installer if the answer is "none"

once you hear what an even simple auto-tuning DSP sounds like, you're unlikely to ever look back

Mborkow31

Thanks for the replies so far. A bit more info about what im looking for in the upgrade. I'm upgrading to try to achieve a fuller sound, I don't want just louder. As we all know, when you turn the factory system up it just sounds flat. I don't want just that flat sound amplified to a higher volume.

I've read that factory head units send a signal that is stripped down so it doesn't expose the low quality speakers and that a processor of some sort restores/provides a full/ original signal to your aftermarket amps. I realize I'm speaking in very simplistic terms, as I don't know all of the technical details. I guess I'm just looking for re-assurance that I won't be disappointed in my choice to not go with a processor. This is my first after market stereo upgrade where I haven't also replaced the head unit. Any more feedback or experiences you can share would be appreciated.

Mborkow31

Here's the verbiage from Crutchfield's website that has me curious. I realize I should take it with a grain of salt because they want me to buy one and that it isn't specific to the TL but still wondering if it warrants consideration,


Your factory stereo uses preset equalization designed to make cheap factory speakers sound better, meaning that it automatically adjusts the different frequencies, creating audio "peaks and valleys" which can degrade sound quality. It is particularly noticeable when you add amplifiers, speakers and subwoofers to your setup, as any deficits in the sound are literally amplified.

abirvalg

ehh ... , there's more to it

remember that first time ever in your life when you put headphones on?
i remember mine very vividly, why? because that was the first time in my life that i heard the sound, but couldn't tell where it was coming from other than it was right in the middle of my head ...

so here you are driving and listening to your awesome new audio system that now has a full range sound after bass restoration, but you can still tell exactly where each of the speakers is located with your eyes closed

Now imagine some audio magic, similar to what the headphones do for sound perception, only in a car ...

If you take out the road noise (by parking or sound deadening, in case you also want to drive your car ) and close your eyes, not only the speakers disappear, but you feel like there is a whole band or orchestra standing several feet in front of you and playing just for you. You can tell where different instruments are located, where the vocals are, you can almost hear how far the performance hall walls are ... wait a minute! aren't you still in your car?

Yeap! You are! it just doesn't sound like a small metal box on wheels anymore ...

That special magic is called Time Alignment. It is based on how gullible human brain is (remember that music inside your head thing).

But what about all of those speakers around me, you might ask? Why do i even need the rear speakers if the sound will be in front of me? What's going to happen to my precious 5.1 ELS system i've been so proudly demoing to my passengers?

Well, the rear speakers are still going to be part of the system, you'll just never be able to point at them as the source of sound.

And here's the hard truth about 5.1 ...
Many luxury and "luxury" cars offer surround sound of one type or another 5.1, 7.1 you name it. Surround systems came from movies, where sound effects enveloping the viewer improve the feeling of presence at the scene of action. And it's all good to have a system like that in your car if you're watching movies in it. When it comes to music though, there a couple of issues. First of all, nobody listens to music standing in the middle of the band, people play music that way, but that's not a very good listening position. And second, DVD-A never really picked up as music delivery format, the choice is very limited. My personal collection consisted of the demo disk, on which my favorite track was the channel demo itself

hope this will at least put you in the mood of doing more research

after i went with the DSP in my first install, just to try it, i HAD to put one in my TL, i was hopelessly sold

never again will do an install without a good processor!

PS cleansweep is not a good processor, it's merely a bass restoration device

HQTL6SPD

^wow that was very well written, im going to have to upgrade!

Mborkow31

I decided to go without for now. But thank you for the well thought out reply. I definitely feel more educated. The install is being done as I type this so we will see how I like it!

DiamondJoeQuimby

iTrader: (2)

This is an absolute falsehood. A Cleansweep is a perfectly good processor and it does what it is designed to do exceptionally well. What it is designed to do is correct the EQ (that preset EQ junk referenced by crutchfield) on the electrical side so you have a flat signal going out to the amplifier. It is not an acoustic processor which corrects (the signal) for the listening environment. To call it "merely a bass restoration device" is just plain wrong.

If you think the Cleansweep isn't a good processor you either a) have never used one properly or b) don't understand what it does.

A Cleansweep gives you a good starting point to then perform the rest of your install. The JL guys are big on "fix it with install". I.E. use proper speaker placement, acoustic treatments, set x-overs to tune, and use EQ at a minimum, and TA even less. That approach is fine and dandy if you are going to build kick panels, run a full active system, etc. Most people don't want to spend the time and or money to execute this correctly however.

Enter the acoustic processors. The acoustic processors will allow the user to correct for the environment (read poor speaker placement, and the hostile acoustic environment of the car). They allow you to delay speakers, do all kinds of things with eq, phase, etc. Truth is, much of what an acoustic processor does can be accomplished with better speaker locations and better x-over set up. EQ and TA, to me are like salt and pepper on a good meal. They should be used sparingly and to accommodate for the users taste. If you take a crappy cut of steak it doesn't matter how much seasoning you throw at it, it's still a crappy cut of steak.

That said, most every car can benefit, at least some, with a processor. Problem is a lot of people that use them have no real idea of what they are actually doing and don't get how the adjustments interact with each other. Unfortunate, this includes professionals in many cases btw.

You just need to know what you are getting into with a processor. Know that the more you process the signal the more processed it will sound. Also, you can likely make it sound really killer for one of the front seats, not both (at least using the stock speaker locations). Again, this isn't bad, it just "is".

Best thing to do is determine what you really want from the system and go from there. A couple of things to keep in mind:

1) The signal from the headuint to the amp in the TL is pretty flat. Apart form about a 3dB dip at 1kHz it is quite useable. After the amp, signal wise, all hell breaks loose. The preamp signal is < 1 volt so you will need either a line driver or an amp that behaves well when it does not get much input signal.

2) The center channel is pretty useless

3) The stock speaker locations fall somewhere between "less than ideal" and "horrible". Depending on the level of performance you are after this may or may not be an issue. Tonally you can get pretty good freq response in the stock locations, just don't plan on getting much in the way of good stage and image. Some people have no idea what this actually is, and even fewer care. But seriously, a tweeter being 2-3 feet away from the mid, firing right into the glass is NOT a design that will lead to killer acoustic performance.

4) Opinions are like a-holes. Take this post for what it is, my opinion. Except the first part about the Cleansweep. That is pretty much fact

pohljm

I responded to you via e-mail, but DiamondJoe nailed it. Except #3 I think the stock locations of the drivers can yield 90% of greatness, kicks or on axis will get you the rest of the way. Abir has no idea about the cleansweep.

abirvalg

a) have never used one properly

that is true!
i have never used one, an apologize if my assumption was offensive in any way

you have perfectly described some of the reasons why i had never used it

1) the signal is already flat
2) any other DSP provides EQ
3) i'm not into fabrication enough to relocate all my speakers so i can get a better stage and not rely so heavily on a DSP's ability to do TA

so, my "not a good processor" that came out as an undeserved judgment, should be changed to "a limited range of features compared to other DSPs"

or is that still off?

by the way i made a point of not steering the OP into going with any particular DSP

DiamondJoeQuimby

iTrader: (2)

Not offensive really, I just get chapped when inaccuracies are stated as fact.

It is limited in the fact there are no user adjustments, which honestly, for a lot of users isn't necessarily a bad thing.

It was also the first product to come out in the segment in late 2005. While it is a bit long in the tooth, you have to keep in mind its age. The cost of the thing would have been astronomical if it had much more than it did when introduced. It really was the trial blazer for products like the MTX reQ, Audison Bit series, Alpine PXE H600/650/imprint and the JBL MS-8.

Personally I would LOVE to see JL release a new version that incorporated more user tuning capability, but I honestly don't see it happening. At least any time soon.

pohljm

Thats a fair description Abir! Same observations for me as well

Mborkow31

Got the car back. It is definitely louder....but I'm a bit underwhelmed with the "fullness" of the sound. I'm gonna spend some time tweaking the settings and see what I come up with.

Mborkow31

So I've had some time to listen and play with the settings. My main issue is it sounds tinny. Even with the treble turned all the way down it doesn't sound ideal. I've got the bass set how I like it pretty much but it sounds like I have all highs and bass. I'm thinking of taking it to another shop for some advice on a processor.

pohljm

get a microphone, get some RTA software and tune it yourself. your gonna go broke taking it to shops. Are you using rear speakers? are they two ways? do you have your 4 channel amp providing power to fronts and rears?

DiamondJoeQuimby

iTrader: (2)

Did you listen to the speakers ahead of time? A processor won't "fix" tinny. W/ treble all the way down I'd expect flat and lifeless.

BTW, what is your definition of "fuller"? Do you want more impact in the mid bass? (bass guitar/kick drum) do you want more detail and life in the midrange? (vocals, guitar, some percussion)

Best bet is to find some one who has a system you can listen to and hone in on what you really want. Or find a shop that is concerned with getting you what you want and not just making a sale.

Taking a track in that you know really well and saying, "there is too much of that guitar, not enough of that female vocal, and too much of the cymbals" (or whatever it is that describes the difference in what you are hearing to what you know it should be) to someone who knows what they are doing should go a long way.

pohljm

metal dome tweeters firing at the windshield?

Mborkow31

I am using rear speakers, yes they are 2 ways and the 4 channel amp is powering front and rear.

Mborkow31

I think by fuller I mean all of that except vocals. the vocals and highs and deep bass all sound as i would expect them to. Maybe tinny was the wrong adjective. Would this have anything to do with the frequency settings on either amp?

abirvalg

Welcome to the world of car audio!
where professional installers know only the stuff they install all the time
the only people who truly understand the "WHYs" and the "WHATs" are the ones with advanced degrees in audio field
and the only way to get what you want is by costly trial and error, because everyone seems to have a different opinion on any given subject

so, here go my 2 cents:
you need some kind of EQ to be able tweak it, the stock HU just doesn't have enough controls to play with

and when you do go with a processor, consider going active for the fronts, it'll let you fiddle with the CO between mids and tweeters

if you're don't know how to use an RTA and set up EQ and TA manually, pick a device with autotuning of some sort

good luck!

pohljm

OK, here is what I would do if your trying to improve the sound quality. Remove the two way speakers from behind you. you never want tweeters playing behind you. replace them with the stock speakers that you removed. Use the OEM amp to power the rears if you feel the need for some rear fill. I never turn mine on.

Bridge your 4 channel amp (hoping you can) and send all of its power to your front components. then see how you like it. You will have made a dramatic improvement with just those small changes. Try it bridged with the rears just disconnected would be the easiest test as that is just a little wiring change at the amp. let us know how you like it then.

I do not believe that you should go active with the power you have available or your tuning skills at this point. Save that for when you get bored with your setup once you get it sounding good with the equipment that you currently have.

abirvalg

i'm running 2ways in the back, no issues
why not just fade the rears out to see it it makes a difference?

pohljm

The issue would be your stage. rule #1 of most audio installs would be a single pair of tweets in front of you. You do not want to confuse the stage and your brain. In order to get the dynamics that you want you need more power than what he has available to the components at this time. Bridging the amp to be able to provide additional power to the components is also critical to improve the experience. The rear speakers are absolutely not necessary and in the case of having rear tweets is just not desirable at all.

abirvalg

fair enough!
i was simply suggesting to cut the signal to them to see if it is in fact the rears that mess up the overall sound, before dismantling half the car to take them out

a DSP should be able to make them work as rear fill, and the tweeters won't matter much anymore
that is of course if the OP eventually decides to go with a DSP

the easiest thing to do, if personal experience is in short supply, is to copy a proven setup

try to find someone local who's setup you can listen to, or go to a sound competition and look around for SQ setups, browse diymobileaudio

pohljm

You say dismantling half the car??? what I am proposing is as simple as disconnecting the rear speakers and moving one of the leads from the front channel. this will bridge the amp to the front components and eliminate the rears. It could not possibly be easier. I am done

geekybiker

I have to say the time alignment on my 3sixty.2 was the most worthwhile function by far. With the right music it went from music around you, to sounding like it was coming from the dash front and center. Pretty cool when it sudden focuses.

abirvalg

well, you did say "remove"
anyway, we're on the same page now

abirvalg

Amen!

rich20730

What model speakers do you have? Are they coaxials or components? Regular or shallow mount?

The harsh "tinny" sound you are describing may actually be due to cone breakup from your mids rather than an issue with the tweeters. That could be the reason why it doesn't help when you turn down the treble. From a quick look at the Rockford P1652's there is no low-pass crossover on the mids which means the cones are free to ring if they don't have sufficient damping. This could be resolved with an active crossover to cut off the mids below the breakup modes.

Another possibility is that your mids just don't have enough linear excursion to produce the midbass frequencies with authority. This is a common issue with shallow mount components. With a processor, you could fix this issue by raising the sub/mid crossover point and using EQ and time alignment to smooth the transition between the sub and the mid at the crossover point and help bring the bass more up front.

I hate cars

Some people might think it's worth it, some not. What I do know is I can never go back to non processed music after using a processor. No matter what speakers you're running the processor is going to make everything sound better and you're going to get a stage instead of hearing sound from the individual speakers. It's weird to have my driver's side tweeter facing me and only a couple feet from me and I can hear the frequencies it's playing but all sound comes from the windshield near the center of the dash and not the tweeter.

Once you get everything time aligned and balanced left/right including using EQ to adjust individual bands left to right you go from listening to a stereo to sounding like you're at a performance with width and depth and being able to "see" where the singer is and individual instruments are. With better phase coherence everything is clean and clear. With processing and a few months to tune it, I no longer have to adjust the sub level or anything else for that matter depending on what type of music I'm listening to. It sounds great on rap and classical, rock, and country. Before processing I used to find myself always adjusting the sub level and treble.

Mborkow31

Thank you everyone for chiming in. I wish some of you were hear to listen to it as it isn't easy to express in words what I don't like about the sound. With respect to the comment by I hate Cars, I absolutely find myself fussing with the settings from song to song and it is annoying.

One thing I will say is that the iPod I'm using has a few different EQ settings and while none of them are truly a problem solver for me, it does lead me to think that a processor could do me some good. I think I'm going to head to a different shop, one that recommended a processor from the beginning. I need an expert opinion, that much is clear. I will post again once I've decided on a course of action for anyone that might be curious.

I hate cars

I used to constantly mess with settings before the processor and for the first 6 months of using a processor. Once you begin to get everything dialed in, it starts to sound good on just about any music, no need for adjustments.

CSWBiggs

Just incase anybody is curious. Here is the measured FR from my 2006 TL line level from Unmodified Nav headunit. (Taken from before the OEM amplifier). All headunit settings nominal.

Red - Front Right
Blue - Front Left




-Jason

abirvalg

thanks!
at what volume?
i think i've seen it go flatter with higher volume, which implies some kind of equal loudness logic present

I hate cars

Hi Jason, good to see you on here again. Is your sig current, still got the miracle box and HD amps? I would love to hear it again one day.

Gary Mac

I don't know that an eq is absolutely necessary for me, but it would be really hard to listen to music without a centered image, which you really can't get without a processor

CSWBiggs

Here is the FR Plots at 5,10,20,30,40 Blue horizontal line was taken at the end of the measurements to verify the calibration was maintained before and after tests.



Thanks,

Jason

CSWBiggs

Not terribly current...Rebuilding yet again for a more "polished" sound and for more trunk space.

Currently in the works. everything but the amplifiers...haha

How have you been man?

-Jason

rich20730

Wow. Thanks for posting this. I will no longer feel bad about using so much EQ boost in the 1-1.2khz range.