vhtran

So, "speed is not everything" except "Mexico runs". hahaha

Congratulation on your ride. I am a sucker for white cars. The TLX-S is too young for long-term reliability with the now boosted engine. The majority of these TLX-S owners will up their boosts and that reliability is out of the window. That is one of the reasons why the Germans have lesser reliability.

Nexx

Well there is a guy who has run a 12.78 without upping boost or even a tune. Granted its all custom fab work he has had done.

F23A4

He's an acquaintance of mine on Instragram and local to my area. I've been watching his work very closely as his progress is becoming a deciding factor on whether or not I swap out the A-Spec for a Type S.

vhtran

Custom work vs remap, which one is cheaper to chuck out more power?

billxlisa

You do realize that BMW gets “all that power” not by superior engineering but by running 34 psi boost? Where Acura limits it out at just over 15? Now the dual turbo setup vs the dual scroll does let them run higher boost (higher flow) at max RPM, but too much boost will destroy a gasoline engine. Boost is temperature and the top piston ring bears the brunt of it. Anyone can set the wastegate for higher boost, it is just a number in the software. But I actually appreciate Acura not going to the BMW and Ford (Raptor) crazy boost level, because it tells me that they have engine longevity in mind. I don’t lease my car, and I do not want it burning oil at 10,000 miles. Maybe BMW and Ford have some kind of “magic sauce” that keeps their engines alive at those levels, but I doubt it. As a former Mercedes S class owner, I just don’t think the Germans care. Sorry to be so blunt, but they look at their demographics, where 80% of their owners lease and trade in by 40,000 miles. That makes a difference in engineering decisions.

Sorry to be so blunt but that is my experience. Honda and Toyota still care about longevity. Thank goodness. That is my opinion YMMV.

04WDPSeDaN

iTrader: (1)

1st and foremost, Welcome to Acurazine.

The engine that would compare to the TLX-S 3.0T, would be the B58 (3.0T) found in the M340i, which is the competition. On the stock ECU tune, the B58 will produce a maximum boost of approx.8-11psi. B58 has broken records with the ability to run 19-20 psi on the stock turbo (maximum safe limit of the B58) making anywhere from 600-700 whp, if not more depending on the supporting mods. Your 34 PSI claim is wild. If you're talking about S55 and S58 engines, those are found in M models like M3/M4 and X3M/X4M. Those engine are not comparable to the TLX-S 3.0T. It would be a joke to compare them.. As for longevity, the B48/B58 engines have been out in production since 2016 and have been proven reliable engines. Reliable to the point where it's used in the Toyota Supra. Toyota wasn't going to gamble on their hard earned reputation of being reliable without knowing that these engines meet and exceed their strict standards, and it did.. The 3.0T from Acura has NOT been out long enough for real world longevity and reliability. So I wouldn't be so quick to make such claims. We can touch back on years from now.

Anytime you modify your vehicle, you take what would be "reliable" and make it more so unreliable. These reflash tunes create more power by many ways, but one most common way is to raise the stock boost pressure. So what do you think is going to happen? Perhaps more wear and tear which can result in all sorts of issues. Longevity of the engine, transmission and diff might be shorten. Some might not even make it to 50K.. Your guess on longevity is as good as mine. You leave it stock, you have more peace of mind. You made some bold claims and it sounds like you didn't have a positive experience with your S-Class Mercedes. What year was your S-class?

Kense

I see why you put a question mark after that. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

04WDPSeDaN

iTrader: (1)

I do appreciate his efforts and especially being a normal car enthusiast and fabricating a downpipe for the TLX-S, he did get called out for the - Slope on the run. Don't take it for the grain of salt, but still impressive nonetheless. I give him the upmost respect. Reminds me of the good ole days here on Acurazine when members did their own homework and fabricate their own parts. Long before such vendors like Excelerate Performance and Endless RPM, which also did their own fabrications. Sadly, this is no longer the case with certain vendors for Acura products.

I told him I'd be down for a meet and run, in Mexico of course.

vhtran

oh hey, my Honda Clarity runs 33PSI per wheel.

mike03a3

It's the same in Germany, so much so that the Ampelmännchen (literally little traffic light men, are a popular symbol for souvenirs. When my wife visited me in Berlin I told her there would be skeletons standing on the corner if the green Ampelman ever burned out. The Germans will give you a dirty look for crossing on red, unless there are children present. Then you'll get a public dressing down as a menace to society for setting such a bad example.

They have a second police force, the Ordnungsamt, to enforce civil codes and public order offenses.


Alles muss in Ordnung sein!

BEAR-AvHistory

Ja, es ist

Kense

LOL that's a safe PSI you shouldn't have any explosions.

billxlisa

The original post is comparing the TLX Type S to M? BMWs. Here is an independent link to someone who actually measured their boost pressure on M? BMWs and saw 34 psi (absolute) range:

https://www.mforum.net/forum/f80-m3-...boost-pressure

Ford uses these kinds of boost pressures on their products:

https://www.f150ecoboost.net/threads/turbo-psi.10690/. They are using gage pressure vs the absolute pressure referred to in the previous posts, so 12 plus 14.7 is 26.7 PSI absolute.


I did not make up the boost pressure levels. I do not believe that a 3.0 inline six from BMW can make 425 HP (2021 M3) vs the 355 hp of the Acura while running the same boost pressure as the Acura. I do not believe there is some magic “German Engineering” that can make 20% more specific power on the same displacement engine running the same boost pressure, and in the same RPM range. The B58 that you mention makes 382 HP, not a large difference, so I would not assume it is running very high boost pressures. I am specially talking about the M class BMWs that constantly are compared against the Acura as direct competitors, even though they cost (equally equipped) thousands of dollars more.

Some of the confusion is comparing gage and absolute pressure levels. Since most of these cars reference the wastegate pressure to vacuum I am using absolute pressure for comparison.

But you are right, obviously I do not know what I am talking about.

I am not combative or confrontational by nature, so I will reply no more, except by reiterating my belief that the laws of physics apply to Germans just like they do to the Japanese.

billxlisa

Oh yeah, sorry, you asked about my S class. It was a 1984 diesel. Now diesels, being unthrottled, have much lower EGT so are not as sensitive to boost vs temperature, although of course you can melt them also if you overdo it.

My 1984 did fine, but a later 1991 S class (S350D) I experienced siamesed the center cylinders (5 cylinder) to shorten the overall length, which overheated the center bores, which resulted in egg shaped cylinders. A rod bearing went, and thru the oil system destroyed the oil pump which destroyed the turbo (quite a noisy event). I still have the turbo around here somewhere. So, I am perhaps not as enamored of German engineering as others may be. Now I know all engineers make mistakes but I have always been sensitive to the “German Engineering” mythology.

04WDPSeDaN

iTrader: (1)

I appreciate your response. I'm sure everyone here would agree, but BMW M models are NOT in any way direct competition to Acura, since all except one model which is true high performance vehicle, the NSX. I don't think people are cross shopping an M4/M3 to an NSX. or maybe they are?! Who knows.. So the B48/B58 is the best engines to compare vs Acura's 2.0T/3.0T. Thing about the Germans, they underrate their engines and BMW is the biggest offender. S55 and S58 engines, which you keep mentioning are specifically built for M models, not M sport trims. I think that's where the confusion is. As for Ford, I can vouch for the durability and reliability owning (since new) a 2015 Ford Transit 250 with the 3.5TT engine. Broke 300K on original engine, turbos and transmission. Is a work horse for sure and have done standard services through. Went in for two recalls for a fuel pump module and a drive shaft coupling. I also own two BMW's with both B48 and B58 engines.

04WDPSeDaN

iTrader: (1)

Beautiful Mercedes, some of those diesel were built like tanks. In Highschool, my parents gave me their 95 S500. My autoshop teacher became obsessed with the S-Class and wanted us to work on it. I remember he ordered plugs, wires and some other items from Mercedes and was like a kid at christmas. For us (the students) it was more like W.T.F.. German engineering for sure. We were learning on classic V8's and now servicing an S500 V8. One of my classmates loved the working on my Mercedes that he ended up opening a Specialized Mercedes-Benz auto repair shop. When I had my 2006 ML350, I had him service what I couldn't do in my driveway. It was always neat to see what he had in the shop and I would hang out helping him rebuild some Mercedes and Porsche engines (I was an ASE master technician for 12 years before leaving the industry). My father loved the 2006 S-Class, so a few years ago we found one with the AMG sport package. It was a custom ordered vehicle, white on white, AMG wheels and bumpers, Wood grain everything inside. such a beautiful car. He ended up selling it last year . The replacement was a 2018 X3 because he really enjoyed mine.

BEAR-AvHistory

Don't really think the TLX-S fan thinks the S competes with the M series 3/4. It was just a wet dream when Jon was hyping the car for the past few years. Faded to the M340 when 355bhp was announced & died the day Slow Sam ran the S4. Its not competitive with the M340 which is a B58. Type-S is a good solid nice performing family car but not yet in the performance based Audi, MB, BMW arena. Maybe next iteration if the do a "R"

The boost guy fixed it The TLX-S 355 & the M340 382 run approximately the same boost 15psi. The M340's running 22/24PSI are tuned with full bolt-ons some running E85 some 100 octane. High boost full bolt-on running E40 fuel Z4 M4.0 will run 490whp.

The M3/4 comes in two flavors M3/4 base 473BHP & M3/4C 503BHP. Have not seen the numbers but think they are around 18.5PSI & 21PSI. There is a vid of a S58 all stock internals running 1049BHP on a dyno. It looks like the boost is 29/30PSI??? My math is rusty, boost looks to be listed at 3KPA.

On the old 425BHP M S55 engine. Factory boost was 18.1 max. The current S58 is a different engine designed to take more stock boost.

caLiTLX

All this talk about boost levels, displacement, etc is nonsense! If people are just concerned with power figures and don’t care about the power curve, then people can easily be mislead. One of my previous cars, Evo 8, made 644whp on a mustang dyno with a stock block - basic 2.0L inline 4. Power curve sucked due to a 62mm turbo but top end was insane. The key with using a stock block and boost pressure in the high 30s, was to keep and delay timing to keep the stock rods happy and not allow peak torque to come in early.

When it comes to boost levels, there’s so many variables such as turbo sizes (efficiency range), displacement, compression ratios, etc. It’s unfortunate there’s no tuning method yet for the TLX-S but from the few dyno graphs I have seen, it’s clear the engine is limited by the electronically controlled wastegate. How much power will the TLX-S make once there’s a tuning method? I don’t know, but I’m sure the power curve will be broader. However, as everyone knows, the weight of the TLX-S will dilute the power figures since it’s on the heavier side.

Now, back to our regular broadcast and let the internet experts jump in

BEAR-AvHistory

Think with a production engine in a factory built car there is a normalization process so its usable on the street & will keep the EPA happy.. You cant sell large numbers of cars that you can't drive well on the street. 1000BHP S58 is what it can do & might not be practical in anything but a Bonneville car or a Texas miler.

These cars should not be compared against each other not only for the big price spread but for what they are built to do. The mission of these cars is totally different. That does not make one better than the other. It just makes each one better suited for what they were built for than the other one.

Think the Type-S is limited by a small turbo & ECU management. Hard to tell from just one picture but the port design also fits into the smalls turbo concept. Looking at the AWD, gearing, small turbo & 6500 cutoff it seems like this engine is all in for the launch. Give the test driving customers a feeing of power by pushing them back in their seats at launch. Watching the vids its clear the car is all done early. While boost is interesting & will agree most look at the big boost number as the key not the total power curve.

For efficiency you have 2 cars with 3 liter DOHC Turbo engines that max at 15PSI. One generates a factory rated 382BHP that most will agree is over 400 & the other 355 which might be optimistic. On the use of fuel the 10 speed 355 gets in the upper 20's on the highway at X miles per hour. Some real life input would be good. The 8 speed 382BHP will do 31MPG at 80mph.

These things support that a raw boost number taken out of context has no relevance. Boost on both is the same but its used differently. Only reason it all came up is an error by a third party that had someone mis-state a cars level of engine design vs the TLX-S.

FWIW regarding tuning etc

2022 (4300lbs) AWD production cars with 3 liter turbo engines are running 0-60 in 3.24 seconds & 1/4 mile 11.19 @ 122.55. Their lighter Coupe brothers are quicker & faster. Engines have a long flat power curve with a 7800 RPM Red Line & a max boost in the low 20PSI Range. The TLX-S will need at least another 170BHP to generate these numbers. That is a way more than a tune. Would guess major head work & bigger turbos, intake manifolds, fuel delivery along with the standard bolt-ons. Not a cheap proposition.

The more power you are generating for a specific displacement the harder (more expensive) it is to increase the power.

KidK

My Type-S will arrive on the 15th of this month (Black, Black, HPT). Any “regrets” regarding specific Dealer Installed Accessories from the current owners? I’m planning on adding;

• Splash guards
• Welcome lights
• Wheel locks
• Illuminated door sill trim
• Premium carpet floor mats

Justy48

I look forward to a post with a photo of your black Type-S - maybe with ceramic coating. Nothing beats a freshly shined black car.

one4all

I've happily owned two previous TLs (3G and 4G, skipped 1G TLX) but wanted to buy the Type-S ever since 5 or 6 years ago when an Acura employee let it slip that it was returning , but there were so many unknowns regarding the release date (which kept getting pushed back) and the anticipated markup. Meanwhile I was offered an amazing deal on a '21 TLX A-Spec SH-AWD: about $4.5K off MSRP after dealer and Loyalty discounts and zero interest. Design and feature-wise I would give the A-Spec 10/10, especially the ELS audio system. Performance is solid too thanks to the bountiful torque and SH-AWD. I would say it's more fun to drive than the 4G TL and at least on par with the 3G.

Reasons I caved for the Type-S:
- Missed the V6 engine note
- This may be the last 6-cylinder (or ICE engine) in a TLX
- Depreciation on my A-Spec was basically zero - I could have sold it privately at or very close to MSRP for a profit

I have no major regrets at all from either TLX - both are great cars. I would prefer that it was smaller, but coming from a 4G TL I'm used to the large size. Gas mileage is also disappointing, but owning a 3G TL where mileage never exceeded 20mpg I'm to that as well. Excessive weight is clearly the main drawback of the 2G TLX, although much credit is due to Acura's engineers since it handles like it's 1,000 ls lighter. Obviously the car can't hide its weight at the drag strip (as evidenced by the many "Type-S gets smoked by _____!" YT videos) but I really couldn't care less. I don't stop light drag and wouldn't expect any $55K sports sedan to be competitive with all the C63s/M4s/GT-Rs and modded muscle cars/Type-Rs/STIs I see anyways.

I'm still trying (and slightly failing) to follow Acura's "break-in" guidelines of no hard acceleration under 600 miles and no hard braking under 200 miles. The turbo-6 builds power extremely similarly to the turbo-4 (same turbo with same boost), with a large sweet spot in the mid-rev range. I will note that I immediately felt the 200lb weight difference between the A-Spec SH-AWD and the TLX Type-S. Maybe it's just the different suspension but it just seems like the Type-S is more resistant to steering inputs than the A-Spec. Ride quality for the Type-S (all-season wheel/tire package) is excellent and comparable to the A-Spec, surprising given the very large wheel size (20") and low tire side wall (35 profile).

Minor annoyances so far:
1. Side mirror puddle lights - I didn't even realize mine weren't coming on anymore on my A-Spec until about a month ago, but even then I didn't put much thought into it...until I saw all the threads about the problem pop up here and elsewhere. I don't even know how long they've been out since you really only notice them at night on poorly lit parking lots or streets. The lights on the Type-S are working but from what I've read it seems to be an inevitable failure. Hopefully Acura comes up with a long-term fix. In the meantime I plan to at least cover the mirrors whenever I wash the car.

2. Less than stellar fit and finish - Uncharacteristic for a high end Honda product and applies to both the A-Spec and Type-S. The console volume knob on the A-Spec had always felt slightly "loose" while the Type-S knob feels much more solid and secure. However the Type-S has an annoying squealing sound when rolling the front passenger window up or down. Haven't noticed any major body panel gaps like others. That said I still think the TLX is put together better than most competitors. Material quality is pretty solid as well. One of the reasons I skipped the 1G TLX was the significant downgrade in interior materials/design choices compared to the 4G TL.

BEAR-AvHistory

Found this, the 503BHP engine has 24.5PSI as the maximum boost level. I don't have a factory number on the 473BHP version yet, still guessing around 21/22PSI. The prior M3/4 444BHP S55 was running 18.5PSI maximum boost.

That said the 35PSI level 1049BHP that was mentioned is a fully modified outside the block engine, bigger turbos, intake system, intercooler, exhaust headers, heads, valves, fuel injection system, fuel delivery system etc. Lots of money thrown at it. Block is stock as everything in it crank, rods, pistons, etc are forged. Stock block also has a new track specific oiling system geared to keeping pressure up in long sweeping high speed turns where street engines (non dry sump) G load can starve.

Should be of interest as 11 second TLX-S performance wishes are being thrown around as just a tuning issue. For fat cars like ours it costs a lot to go fast.

KidK

Absolutely. Envious Detailing in SoCal will do the paint correction and ceramic coating.

mike03a3

Modern paints are extremely thin compared to the older acrylics. I'd be concerned about how much "correcting" can be done before you hit the base coat.

Justy48

Given that ceramic coating is not a new kind of treatment, I don't think there is any concern with the process when done by an experienced detailer. With a new car, hopefully the correction only involves removing a slight scratch or two. The cc treatment on my Apex Blue Type-S looks amazing. No photo is needed. You've already seen plenty of examples.

KidK

Exactly why I picked these guys. They measure the paint depth in each section and adjust their correction strategy based upon the available paint.

Legend2TL

Thanks for the thorough review, IIRC the Type-S has a different steering gear ratio, which perhaps with the electric motor assist changes the steering feel? Can't image the steering kingpin angle or caster was changed for Type-S

Jayellin

I drive mine inSport and merging into traffic is quick. Never have to floor it

F23A4

Agreed regarding the A-Spec. My dealter indicated that I'll be flat if I trade my A-Spec for the Type S next month, when a Performance Red model is scheduled to arrive.

As far as the ICE reference, Honda is a litte slow to adjust when it comes to powertrain advances. My hunch is that they'll go with some variation of plug in hybrid with the next generation TLX with a 4G TLX being electric.

bilirubin

Looks like after the Integra, they're going to go all-in on EV's.
Acura To Skip Hybrids And Go All-In On EVs

Legend2TL

Makes sense as Acura like most luxury hybrids all had poor sales in MDX and RLX Sport Hybrids no matter how good/bad they were.
Porsche and Audi have shown the EV transition way.

It took Honda a long time to produce some good hybrid tech, their 2000's to mid-2010's tech was pretty mediocre

F23A4

....still waiting for them to make a viable S4/C43 competitor. J/K

Legend2TL

^ you're having a field day today!

F23A4

I'm in an exceptionally good mood today...not even sure why.

bigfatcannoli

I ordered my 2022 in August. Delivery got pushed out to end of January (let's hope). I got the remote starter and all season package 1.

F23A4

Fingers crossed. Keep us posted.

TypeS22

No Regerts, Best car I've ever owned. Stupid fast, sporty and a head turner. Had a 19 Aspec and I plan on keeping this type s for a while. Purchased the longest Acura care they have. My previous aspec 06 had over 200k

djhtsx

iTrader: (2)

TypeS22

don't get splash guards get the side skirts I love mine