fiatlux

It's funny, Acura couldn't out-luxury the competition, and they wanted to get rid of the "value-luxury" stigma, so they're changing their brand identity to be built around performance. OK, that's fair, but if you're going to say that your brand is about performance, even matching the competition's isn't enough; it has to beat them. Beat them on paper, beat them at the track, beat them everywhere. Otherwise, you'll just be known as "value-performance". Enthusiasts don't want "same performance for a lower price". They want "same price for better performance".

Alex on Autos had a funny quip last week about Acura:

4G-Lover

Exactly....the "almost luxury brands" are being squeezed....the 1G TLX was not any better than any well built mainstream midsize sedan.

fiatlux

I don't know about that, the 1G TLX had much less NVH than any mainstream sedan, the ELS system is better than any mainstream sound system, and the DCT in the 2.4L version is way better than any slushbox or CVT found in the mainstream models. The NVH was probably the most shocking part to me; it'd give Lexus a run for its money, and Lexus is well known for having very low NVH.

4G-Lover

Problem is that right now you can walk to a CDJR dealership, fork the south side of mid 50K (actually less, there is the inevitable money on the hood) and get a fully loaded (Nappa leather wrapped dash and upper door panels, before someone complain about bad plastic) Charger SRT 392 Widebody that does 60 in 3.6, corners at 0.97g, tops at 180 MPH, huge 6 piston Brembo brakes in front (4 in the back) Bilstein adaptive dampers, eDiff, the most comfortable seats south of 90K and, more importantly, is ready for the track without affecting your warranty.

So, yes, it is possible to build a killer car for mid 50.....355 HP for the sexy looking 2G TLX is way too little, that car deserves more.

4G-Lover

A rental base Charger ($29K) would give a 1G TLX a run for its money in the NVH department....and you should not buy an Acura sport sedan for NVH and the stereo system....

fiatlux

But the 1G isn't a sports sedan...it's a FWD-based car built on the same platform as the 9G Accord. In my eyes (and probably most buyers) it's a smaller, cheaper, and nimbler Lexus ES350. Or a nicer Accord. In both cases it ticks the right boxes for being better than mainstream midsize sedans. You said it's not any better than a well built midsize sedan. So are you suggesting that an Accord, Camry, Mazda 6, Altima, Legacy, Sonata, Optima, Malibu, or Fusion, or Passat is just as good? I'm sorry, but I can't for the life of me find a top-trim example of those cars that is better than a top-trim TLX.

As for the Charger, I've driven many a chargers, from base rental/poverty spec SXT ones to 392s and even a Hellcat. It's really nice inside and quite refined, but there's definitely more tire noise and wind noise. BTW a Charger is a full size sedan, so I'm not sure why you're bringing that up...

4G-Lover

In the SRT and up yes, more tire noise considering the size and type of tire....in your regular SXT V6 Charger no, even C&D was impressed with the quietness of that car.

An Acura should have not targeted an ES350

fiatlux

And so what if they did? How is that relevant? I'm still waiting for which mainstream midsize sedan you think is just as good as the 1G TLX. I would love to know, because if it's true then I must have a massive blindspot in my understanding of current cars.

SebringSilver

I think all these problems go away if they simply don’t call this upcoming Type S a “Type S”.

If “Type S” is meant to be the top of the line flagship for a specific model, how can customers feel good about a car that doesn’t even approach the specs of the competition’s mid-rung offerings?

Mind Truly Boggled.

4G-Lover

Current Accord 2.0 turbo blows the doors off a 1G TLX.

Mazda 6 turbo much more entertaining to drive

The already mentioned Charger...a similarly priced RT made mincemeat of the TLX pretty much across the board...performance, comfort, fun to drive.

Even the much maligned out of production Chrysler 200 AWD was actually better in some areas (infotainment, tech gadgets) 80-90% as good in terms of driving for like 13K less (MSRP)...yes it was a bit more noisy (nothing unbearable) and the stereo was not as good.

No need to mention the Stinger....

Pretty much any of the modern crop of turbo 4 midsize sedan was at the end of the day better than the 4 banger TLX (including a Malibu Turbo) especially when you consider the price differences.

Yes, you said it, I believe that TLX buyers had a massive blindspot when they bought the car if they thought they were getting anything better than a very good mainstream sedan (better in some areas, worse in others in model by model comparison)....I think Acura was simply riding on the coattails of its past reputation

BEAR-AvHistory

On the noise thing & sports sedans. Most are so quite inside they are piping in the engine noise through the entertainment system. I get different noise levels based on what drive mode I am in. Its called Active Sound Design. With my programmer I can even call up the noise inputs from other models. That said I don't think a very low NVH is either material or a winner in selling to the actual sports sedan class of buyer.

4G-Lover

Exactly

Tesla1856

I think he's trying to say that it is an indication that it is sturdy and "well built". I tend to agree.

For what they charge for new sedans in this price-range, they all better have good NVH and reliability when New. But what about after 5 years and 50,000 miles ?

Shadow2056

The 355hp is what I actually expected. Honda/Acura don't put out 400hp numbers on every day cars. The NSX. Sure. Not the daily cars though. The test will come back and people will be surprised.

Exactly. They see 355hp and everyone get their panties in a bunch. Every time I see someone downing or saying "I'm disappointed" before they've even driven the vehicle or even see ant actual test on them, to me, they were already gave up on Acura and were already looking for another brand. They have no faith at all.

Yep. I've driven my wife's 15 TLX V6 Advance Package and drove a 15 335i. Love the way the BMW feels. Always been a fan of the 3 series. But I don't see myself owning one. I don't go just on power as I mentioned. I owned an 2010 TSX and drove a 328i. Loved the 328i. TSX was just more practical having to fit kids and luggage for family trips. The TSX still had pep. Working at Honda, I get to drive the trades. Drove a 2012 IS250 and I'm SO glad I didn't get one. Slow as crap. No space. Drove an Audi A3. Loved the look of it. Handled great. Still no interior space. I get to drive different cars here all the time. Especially when some of my customers are car enthusiast and let me ride with them. Don't get me wrong. I would love to have a 3 series BMW. But for maintenance? Don't want that headache after 40k+. I trust your word over just anyone here. I respect you as well. Especially the experience you have. But I'll hold all judgement until I actually drive the car with the wife when they hit the lot.

04WDPSeDaN

iTrader: (1)

I really and truly appreciate the kind words and it means a lot to me. thank you! Your character speaks for itself! As someone who was also an ASE master certified technician with over 12 years of pushing wrenches from all vehicles from A to Z and worked for several Dealerships, I've experienced a lot which is why I say things from experience. I don't just say crap just to say it nor am I brand loyal. I love what I've owned and currently own because it works for my wife and I. I always said I WILL NEVER OWN GERMAN, only Japanese vehicles. Guess what, over time my perspective changed and what made certain brands popular lost their footing. I owned a 95 (Stillen) 5-speed Maxima. The A32 was one of the best Maxima's made. It introduced one of the best made engines, VQ series. I briefly owned a 96 S500 Mercedes and man what a vehicle. I remember doing spark plugs and wires on that engine (back in high school) and it blew my mind the engineering that went into that vehicle. I was in love with my parents 93 Volvo 850 GLT with a 5 speed manual. I wanted a C70 coupe for the longest time. My parents ended up getting a 2003 Nissan Pathfinder LE and it was an amazing SUV and it had its own common issues with a half ass design to replace the front rotors. 1st real German vehicle I owned for 5 years was a 2006 ML350 which was a work horse. It was such a solid feeling vehicle and incredibly quiet on the highway. It did suffer all the common issues and the repair costs were high. The 2011 Optima we owned was a great vehicle as well, though the 2.4 engine was a terrible choice because it was balls slow but overall a great vehicle and ended up saving my wifes life. I replaced the ML mercedes with a 2018 BMW X3 xdrive30i and two years later it's been solid. My wife loved the X3 that she really wanted one as well. I didn't want another base model, so I found a loaded 19 M40i which is incredible and hasn't given me any issues. I love my TL which is why I still own it after 14 years and it being in pristine condition. When my wife and I were looking for her replacement, we test drove every single vehicle that we were both interested in. From sedans to SUV's. I really wanted to get a stinger but she didn't want another KIA (mainly due to the accident, PTSD). Down the road from now, who knows where Acura is going to be. They might make vehicles that would bring me back. For right now I own my vehicles. They are here for many years ahead. Whatever you and your wife decide on next, will be the best choice for you two. Regardless of what it is because at the end of the day, it only matters to you two.

4G-Lover

Problem is that Acura (and Honda for that matter), as far as I remember, has never surprised on the upside when it comes to acceleration compared to the advertised power. Is not BMW

355 HP should realistically put it into the mid-high 4.

4G-Lover

I owned the A33 Maxima, the 2002 SE 6 speed one of the fastest sedan for the money at that time, it had the LSD option. Almost E39 540i acceleration (and actually roomier) for half price LOL

mapleloaf

Lots of vaid points made above. However, Ifor most of us, performance is strictly about speed. No one buys a TLX to be the fastest one off the line, which is why the Challenger or Mustang GT and other similar cars cater to that secton of the marketplace. Performance is also handling, something the new SH-AWD will do in spades, chasis rigidity, suspension, steering, etc. With the exception of 1-2 percent of drivers, over represented here for obvious reasons, these are the qualities that many enthusiasts would want, along with excellent acceleration. IMHO, I believe Acura is shooting for a broader sectiion of the market for the Type S, where excess HP and poor fuel economy would be a deal breaker (along with the larger price tag). Whether 354 HP and 350 Torque are in the sweet spot remains to be seen.

I also think that the 2.0 T version numbers are designed to accomplish a similar objective by providing a good handling car with solid mid range power numbers to appeal to the 4 cylinder and smaller 6 buyers. Again, time will tell but it's not the greatest period to be launching these new sedans, for many reasons.

04WDPSeDaN

iTrader: (1)

WOW! that's awesome man! My ex had the 5.5 gen maxima and that VQ engine was something else. 4th gen maxima guys were swapping the 3.5 engines. I was running the V2 stillen supercharger on my maxima. I really miss the maxima. I ran the vin a while back and it was in PA. I tried to find the vehicle through groups and on maxima.org but no luck. Here's a picture of my maxima

SebringSilver

I’m not sure I understand this. No faith?

’92 NSX
’94 Legend
’94 NSX
’05 TL A-spec
’08 TSX
’12 TL SHAWD
’15 TLX
​​​​​’15 TLX
’18 TLX A-spec
’19 RDX A-spec

All purchased brand new. Have owned lots of other cars as well, which helps to put things into perspective. I don’t remember any Acura that impressed in a magazine road test other than the original NSX and maybe the odd Integra here or there. But anyway, the new Type S might drive great, have excellent NVH, be priced right and all that. But if it’s underpowered relative to its competition, it’ll be a tough sell (to loyal customers like me).

PredatorWH

Problem for me with the charger is I need awd and its not available in the performance trims. Im hoping the tlx type s will have sub 5 sec 0-60.

Speed_Racer

I'd be good with that too. For years the BMW M cars would post 4.8 sec 0-60 and they felt plenty fast. Granted there's much more than just this metric, but it would be a good start.

Kense

Exactly and LOL at that Alex quote. Acura did this to themselves. Their corny commercials making the outgoing TLX look like some sort of Quadrifoglio competition. With the "Yeah it's that thrilling" performance non sense.

BEAR-AvHistory

With speed its always "as compared to what" Agree the "M" were in the high 4's a few years ago. Today the M-Sports are in the high 3's & the lead true "M"s are in the mid 2's. When Tom McCahill invented the 0-60 metric his first test car a 1946 FORD did it in 21.5 seconds. Ten years later he tested a 1956 FORD & it turned 0-60 in 11.8 seconds. Cut the time in half. Things keep moving on.

GhostTL09

iTrader: (1)

I read through these chats and honestly it's like this. Either you feeling the car or not, but don't create a story for yourself to justify why you don't like the car or why Acura missed or whatever. Half you MoFo's will buy one at some point talking all this crap lol. I never thought I'd own a 4G. I was driving my 01 TL with 70k miles and got the 4G as a loaner and was like "yuck" I'll never buy this, but guess what. 7 years after it came out I drove one and was like ok Nice luxury premium entry blah blah blah SHAWD 2012 and I was like wow. What a fun car to drive. Even though I have Bimmer money I'm good with what I love and that's Acura. So I'll skip totally on the 1G TLX Sure they aren't perfect and I don't want to be in a struggle on the highway with a fucking Optima LMAO, but bottom line love what you drive and leave the nay sayers be. 355 HP sounds good to me, but I'm more worried about low speed handling, interstate throttle response and do I look good in this bitch. All that other bullshit is for the birds. I've driven a 2018 Lexus IS350, some of their interior plastic as hell, cheap material. BMW always got blown tail lights or you gotta overpay by 15k to get a desirable trim level for resale value when you want to sell or trade so you in the hole unless you put 30% down at purchase, and KIA, Hyundai, etc is still crap. It's just dressed up and got yall fooled. Genesis G70 hot though lol. Haven't driven yet but I will soon. That TLX is gonna look gorgeous in person. It'll sell and we passed on a 2020 MDX for 28k OTD with 9 miles on it sitting on the showroom floor just because I know the next MDX is gonna be fire too. I'm done, yall get back to tuning numbers and dyno WHP stats lol.

B1ackAlloy

You mentioned the Stinger and that you and your wife thought talked about it. In terms of reliability now and days what’s your opinion when it comes to reliability Acura vs. Kia? I know a lot of people rave about the Stinger yet I hardly see one on the road. So I have decided to put the Stinger on the list along with the TLX.

ESHBG

My one neighbor got a Stinger about a year ago and so far so good. My other neighbor just bought a Forte GT and I checked it out today, a very nice car for the price point. She'll probably let me drive it or take me for a ride one day so I will see how it performs. But for the money they are very nice and I would consider owning one at this point.

Midnight Mystery

Couldn't have said it better myself!!!

leomio85

So, to bring this back, info on the Ram TRX was officially released today. C&D predicted the $56k starting price. Actual starting price? $72k. You can go ahead and now literally wipe your ass with C&D's prediction that the Type S will start at $45k.

Nedmundo

I don't know about the Stinger's reliability, but I loved the AWD one I drove--even with the less-than-great 2.0T--so it's definitely on my short list. For 2021, apparently the four-cylinder is moving to a 304hp 2.5T with an 8DCT, which should be a huge upgrade over the 2.0T and an excellent value if the price doesn't increase much. The Stinger and other Kias I've driven all seem well-constructed, and the Stinger's interior is well designed, but IMO its materials aren't as good as their best competitors'. (The GT models might have some better materials, but I'm not sure.) My 2010 TSX still feels rock solid, with no squeaks or rattles, even after 123,000 miles. And virtually nothing has gone wrong. I wouldn't expect that from a Kia, but I'm not sure I'd expect it from a new Acura either!

BTW, I'm seeing more and more Stingers on the road. Until a couple of months ago, I'd seen just one in Philly, but now I'm seeing them on a regular basis. Not frequent, mind you, but regular. I saw a gorgeous blue one today.

Tesla1856

First, no offence to anyone here who owns a Kia (and I might be talking out my rear because I've never actually owned one ) ... but I have drove rentals.

But aren't those Korean ... like Hyundai ? I've always thought the Koreans are good at "copying" (and not just cars) and apparently have some good body designers/copiers (yes, they "look" pretty). I suggest you rent one before you buy one.

Who knows, maybe they are great now. However, I would use caution grouping them with the Japanese brands.

fiatlux

I'm sticking with my guess that the Type-S will be $49,995.

Base TLX starts at 35K
+2K for SHAWD
+5.9K for A-Spec
+7K for Type-S
= $49,995 before destination

fiatlux

Kia isn't just Korean, like Hyundai. Kia is a subsidiary of Hyundai Motor Group. Their platform, engines, etc. are all shared across both brands.

When was the last time you drove a Kia or Hyundai rental? Prior to the early 2010s I'd agree that they're ho-hum at best, but over the past 10 years they've been building solid products. I would absolutely pick a Telluride or Palisade over a Pilot or Highlander, and the Optima and Sonata over everything not named Accord.

Tesla1856

1. Well, that explains a lot actually.

2. It probably was about 9 years ago. One time it was a Hyundai mid-sized sedan. It looked fine, but it was slow and the suspension was boat-like (felt/drove like an old Crown Victoria or Caddy from the 80's) .

3. Yeah, I had friends and relatives that bought new Hyundais back-in-the-day . Complaints and horror-stories were common. Good to know they are better now, thanks.

Midnight Mystery

I have an odd view on Kia/Hyundai. They're pretty damn reliable, but boring... Basically, a cheaper Toyota.

We had a 2007 Kia Sportage that I loved dearly, very reliable for the most part. It had a weak 2.0 I4 making about 140 hp but it woke up with an intake and 93 octane. Very nice heavy steering but not as good as Honda.

I also had a 2011 Kia Optima. Now while this car was better, in certain areas, it felt cheaper and the steering wasn't as good as the old Sportage. The Optima also burned oil so badly that black gel would come out of the exhaust pipe.

Other than that, it was super reliable... I'm sure it'll last a long time as long as someone keeps topping the oil every week or so.

My only complaint was that I could never love that car. It felt very generic compared to an Accord or Camry though.

Regardless, I have always been a Korean car fan, I'd recommend it to anyone, but I just like the general feel of Hondas more.

04WDPSeDaN

iTrader: (1)

My wife and I had owned a 2011 fully loaded Optima. When purchased, it had 4,000 miles and when it was a write off, it had just about 70K. Out of the 6 years of ownership, I did the brakes once which included the parking brakes, normal oil changes, wiper blades, filters and fluids. I had the dealership replace the headliner clips due to a rattle around the pano glass, which was resolved when the clips were replaced. I had replace the steering plastic coupler because its plastic and they are known to break. I never suffered any other issues with that vehicle. When compared to my personal Acura, it's been more reliable. Even when I worked for Acura, it was still more reliable than all the crap we had to warranty and fix. Honestly, it was the most reliable vehicle I had owned. I'm part of many different groups including stinger pages. They are solid and a lot of them are driven hard. I really like the refresh Stinger. They did a great job. Not sure if it will have the updated engines which make more power than the current engines. I really wanted a 2019 GT2 stinger and test drove one. It was definitely a quick car and fun to drive. My wife didn't want another KIA due to the PTSD from the accident. She wanted the X3 but I wanted to test drive other vehicles as well. Ranging from RDX to Jeep GC, Edge ST, Macan S, GLC 43, GLE 43, S4, C43, TLX A-spec ect. By the end of two weeks, I was exhausted. To be honest, every time I see a stinger, I still say WOW, what a beautiful stinger.

Here's a long term review of the Stinger.
https://www.automobilemag.com/news/2...eview-wrap-up/

jjsC5

Genesis G70

jjsC5

Gee, i was planning to post and eat crow. But I don’t think I will now that you have made such a sh*tty comment

jjsC5

We really needed that lecture to set us straight. Thanks

fiatlux

Genesis ain’t a mainstream brand. It also ain’t a midsize car.