Kinuto

Possibly calling it a PMC Edition like they did with the current gen TLX.

Tony Pac

High HP sounds cool. That's it!

Let's take the 4th G TL and G37 and Lexus IS 350. In terms of HP:

TL: 305HP & 273 TQ
G37: 328 HP and 269 TQ
IS350: 306HP & 277TQ

All these cars are 0-60 is pretty much the same. It's not like the G37 is under 5 sec and TL and IS are at 7.5. Those who care for 4.5 vs 4.7 or 4.0 vs. 4.2. Honestly, you need to think of high performance cars like M or RS.

fiatlux

Pretty sure you'd be singing a different tune if the TLX was making 385hp. Sounds like excuses to me. Is the official fanboi party line now "If you're disappointed that the Type-S isn't as fast as the Germans, you should be in the market for an M/AMG/RS anyways"?

Kinuto

355hp is plenty for me coming from a FWD 4G TL with 280hp. This is a decent upgrade. I've driven the TLX FWD and AWD V6 models and didn't feel much of a difference in terms of power since they had 10HP more.

russianDude

Where are all the people that had special inside knowledge that HP was going to be 400+??
They tuned it down obviously, maybe not sure 10sp can handle it

Tony Pac

I don't think anyone is making excuses. If i am not mistaken most of the crowd was disappointed with 355HP. There is no doubt about that.

But let's not forget if you get an Acura Type S with 355HP for $~45K isn't bad either.

sinistah89

Come on guys, you know its going to be underrated, they came up with that number just to say its more than 350. Just wait until tuning comes out for this car!

nist7

Has Honda/Acura ever made a direct competitor to those top dog german sedans? No one is claiming they have. I doubt they've marketed it or even built cars to directly rival the German top dogs. Clearly throughout history Honda/Acura has been in that middler tier, "affordable" performance without breaking the bank.

No one is cross shopping a 3G TL with a E60 M5. The performance is vastly superior in the M5, obviously. (Though of course there is a much different ownership experience between a 2008 TL-S and a 2008 M5...in many facets)

People who are tempering their disappointment at the low HP and wanting to see some real world reviews and real world numbers are now being labeled as "fanbois." Okay.

russianDude

How does Infinity q50 red makes 400hp with 3.0? Why Acura could not?

fiatlux

Nobody is comparing the Type-S to a M/AMG/RS car. However, it's completely reasonable to compare it to the M340i (not a real M car), C43 AMG (not a real M car), and S4 (not an RS). And compared to those, on paper at least so far it's a disappointment. Yeah yeah, we need to wait until the actual car comes out, but you wouldn't feel better about its prospects if Acura announced higher power numbers? The fact that they announced such low numbers tells me one of two things: 1) they are holding back and will surprise us in the spring or 2) they're not serious about actually beating the competition. In its entire history, Acura has never surprised me, so excuse me for taking the more cynical outlook.

What I was referring to was another poster who suggested that it's pointless to compare the Type-S to the aforementioned cars (its direct competitors), because if you care enough about the performance difference, you should be looking at M and RS cars instead.

nist7

Eh, we'll probably never find out publically.

I'm guessing there are tons of things they had to consider when deciding on a power output level. Lot of it probably has to do with emissions/regulations/efficiency and also corporate philosophy of general conservatism.

FAC is shoving a 700hp+ motor in everything they can think of while others have 355hp as a flagship sport sedan.....very different car making philosophies....I can't imagine Honda putting out a 700 hp motor in a daily driven sedan....

nist7

Ah i see.

I hear ya man. I too wish it was higher....ugh no idea how bad I want Honda/Acura to actually come out with a true punch in the face to the Germans. It probably will never happen.

The NSX 2.0 was I think a pretty decent effort given that project's history and the modern era of incredible competition in that "entry-level" supercar segment.

The slow death of sedans in general is not helping...not to mention the fierce competition and the continuing progression of engine and drivetrain technology....600+hp sport sedans is now the top tier which I highly doubt we will see any of those street sedans wearing H or A.....

IIRC, the McLaren F1 project originally had wanted Honda to make the engine for what is now one of the most valuable and iconic supercars....but for some reason Honda didn't want to or couldn't meet the required specs so BMW stepped in to fill that shoe.....ugh what could've been......that investment, while it would've been an initial huge loss business wise....maybe could've turned into other more higher hp motors years down the road.....

SebringSilver

My TT-RS makes 400hp from its 2.5L 5-cyl mill, same engine as in the RS3, RS-Q3, etc and this engine has won the 2.0-2.5L category World Engine of the Year 9 years running. The engine is as docile as you want and fierce when you want it and that’s before any aftermarket tuning (where people are getting over 700 trouble free HP out of it). It boggles the mind a little bit that Acura can’t (or maybe couldn’t be bothered to) coax more than 355hp out of a 3.0L turbocharged V6.

If you ask me, the base TLX Gen 2 should already be making upwards of 300hp in this day and age. If they can only make around as much power as the German competition, it only allows them to break even in the price/power equation. Is it too much to ask them to make it an absolute no-brainer for us to choose a TLX?

04WDPSeDaN

iTrader: (1)

Not to beat this topic to beat,

Please don't obsess over numbers, they are simply numbers. They mean NOTHING..

The only way to know if the TLX-S is under rated, is to have it on the rollers.

TLX-S is a completely new setup. New engine, new ECU, revised 10 speed and SH-AWD system and no details on the turbo itself. A RELIABLE tune with aftermarket support won't be out anytime soon and will take a very long time, so don't hold your breath on this.

If you want the best bang for buck with aftermarket support, buy the 2.0T . It has been tested and proven already. It's not unknown.

IF Acura is using any form of an E-Turbo system on the TLX-S, forget about a tune. Nobody knows anything about the design of the engine block. Nobody will know how much boost it can hold safely. Remember, tuners try to tune these vehicle within it's safe limits. It's not only the block that has to withstand the additional performance, but the transmission and differential setup. My only grip in the world of tuning, a lot of people throw out claimed numbers without getting on the rollers. When I put my BMW on the rollers, people were confused on the numbers. A lot of these tuning companies add the gained numbers to the stock advertised numbers, people believe they will make an absurd amount of power with a simple re-flash tune. Not always the case and not for all vehicles. Appreciate for what Acura has done, but don't expect a high performance sedan to nail 0-60 in 4.2 seconds and qt mile runs in low 12's.

For what it's worth. My TL makes over 110 more HP to the wheels than it did stock. It's noticeable, but it's still not beating my BMW or the M340i, S4 or C43. These are vehicles that are quick and fun to drive and that's about it. Anyone can make their vehicle faster and there's always going to be another vehicle out there quicker than the rest. It's an endless debate. I can only suggest, go out there and drive other vehicles and see what works best for you and only you.

BEAR-AvHistory

FWIWON Have no thought on how Acura might rate or under-rate the engine for their published 355bhp. That is not trivial power. My 2018 440 Coupe was rated at 355bhp WITH the optional (MPPSK) power pack . Was a 4.2 to 60 car without a 1 foot rollout. Stock 440's were rated at 320BHP & were the pick of the litter in 2018 in the 0-60 derby.

dzionny_dzionassi

Really? I am active member in Infiniti community and this is a news to me. Besides turbos that likes to consume oil, carbon buildup on valves and failed injectors it is really solid engine. Tuned, with bigger heat exchanger, upgraded pump and down pipes, it is one of the fastest cars on the road.
I strongly considering to add it to my fleet at some point.

Midnight Mystery

Hopefully the same applies to the 3.0T as the 2.0T. That it's underrated.

CheeseyPoofs McNut

Do most or many people purchase a sport sedan due to the numbers - or do they drive them and base the decision on that? How many people actually take their car to the track? Can most people tell if a car has 350 hp or 375 hp while driving it on the freeway?

Legend2TL

yeah, Honda had no interest in the F1 project even though they were partnered with McLaren in racing when the idea was pitched to them by Dennis and Murray.
Then Murray contacted Paul Rosche (BMW M technical director and engine designer whom he worked with in F1 racing at Brabham) who proposed the mostly new V12 design.
I'm guessing Honda had the technical resources but decided against for business reasons.

fiatlux

If people can tell the difference between the power delivery in the M340i vs S4, what makes you think they wouldn’t be able to do the same vs the Type-S? Let’s be honest; people who can’t but still want these kind of cars probably aren’t going to be buying something with an Acura badge on it.

Legend2TL

the vast majority of sport sedan owners probably use them as DD, occasionally having some fun on favorite roads.
What will determine the success is the overall package of how the 2G TLX and how it performs, looks, features/functions, and of course cost.

There are definitely some outliers to this philosophy, the Honda salesman who sold my wife her '17 CRV owns this '07 TL Type-S that's been heavily mod'ed and is putting 450HP/420ftlb to the wheels.

Nice guy, when picking up the CRV, he saw my stock TL 6MT and we started talking about the 3G TL then onto his TL Type-S.
I had a laugh as I told him my '05 TL 6MT is stock and the only work I did to it was change the timing belt/water pump.

Some details on his '07 TL, he's still mod'ing it in 2017 the headlights were the stock HID, now they're 5 element TLX style LED's

2007 Acura TL Type-S: Schmuck-Built Turbo TL

leomio85

Modding is all well and good, but it comes at the cost of usability and reliability the higher up you go. That TL is gorgeous, but nowhere near a DD. It's probably a weekend warrior (maybe not even that) judging by the fact that he doesn't run an air filter on it ... and did he take the hood off for the pics, or because it doesn't clear his intake manifold? Having a 600rwHP car is nice, but it gets old having to deal with an issue every summer. I've had my fun, now I'd be content with something in the reliable 450-500HP (crank) range. I'm not against light mods like a tune and downpipe (along with supporting mods like IC), but I doubt I'm messing with larger turbos or anything like that anymore. Just about all the Germans can achieve that with their current packages, and so does Infiniti. Doesn't look like that's gonna be the case with the TLX-S

Nedmundo

I agree it's reasonable to compare the TLX Type-S to those cars because some will cross-shop them, but in all the fuss about the Acura's power numbers, I think it gets lost that the TLX is much larger than those cars. It's not even a "tweeter" like some prior Acuras--it's just as big as the 5 Series. IMO, the TLX Type-S most resembles Cadillac's CT5-V, which has 360hp/400 tq with a base price under $50k. But pile a few options onto the Cadillac and it can hits $60k, so I suspect the TLX Type-S will represent a much better value. And value, of course, is a key selling point for Acura. Provided it starts around $45k as C&D predicts, it looks like they've nailed that part of the equation, and its size is part of that.

I expect the upcoming "compact" Type-S sedan will be about the size of the A4 and 3 Series, so that will present an interesting comparison. Hopefully that Type-S will get the Civic Type R's version of the 2.0T, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Midnight Mystery

I get your point, but it's nice when you want to pass another vehicle!

russianDude

Numbers are numbers, unfortunately most people look for them

04WDPSeDaN

iTrader: (1)

Exactly correct. I don't know where he was going with that post. That's not a daily driven vehicle, its a show car. As is my TL, it's no longer a daily driver and hasn't been for the last 8 years. When you take an N/A vehicle and boost it, forget about the long term reliability. Wear and tear is increased as the likely hood of more repairs and up keep needed. Not everyone modifies their vehicle but most true enthusiast do. Not many will invest to boost their 3rd gen TL's and in fact, only a rare few of us are boosted, invested a lot of funds to do so and have done it right. When you buy a vehicle that's already boosted from factory, getting more out of it is easier. Down pipe and a reflash tune is enough of a power gain. Here's the deal again, the more you keep pushing the more you'd expect shit to break. Andy broke 700HP with his rotrex supercharger kit on his TL-S, so once again it becomes a pissing contest of numbers but who cares really? Not all of us built our vehicles to track them or race them. My TL still has the factory comfort with all options without being over bearing with exhaust noise, ride comfort, ect.. Where most boosted TL shine are highway pullers. They are worthless from a dig due to being FWD. So in my case, yes, on the highway it's significantly noticeable in power vs a stock TL. I've held my own against the V8 M3's the 2017 S4 ect. I've messed with my own M40i on the highway with wifey driving and I lost. I had the jump at 40 but the M40i pulled ahead quickly and by 80 she was already 2-3 cars ahead. I've messed with my friends 2020 M340i and forget it, he had me the entire time. Needless to say, i'm only on 3-5 PSI with stock injectors and comptech ACM and still put down 334 hp and 287 TQ.

I'll keep saying it, go out and test drive them all. Pick whatever works for you and only you. There's always going to be someone faster than you anyway so who cares. Unless you boost your own vehicle, don't bring it into the conversation.

nist7

Agreed to both above posts.

Heavily modded cars, no matter the platform, from what I've read will generally ALWAYS drive worse (obviously there will be one specific performance parameter that will be better than OEM...generally in straight line accleration) and have guaranteed more issues than OEM or lighter-modded OEM cars. It's basically a pure hobby/enthusiast pursuit...and for show.

Seems like this is why it takes tens of thousands of man hours and tens/hundreds of millions of dollars to actually produce a OEM car with higher hp that is also daily driveable and relatively reliable vs the amateur-modded cars that basically just has parts slapped on them. To me, it seems like there are actually very few places where user-slapped on modifications can actually improve upon OEM parts/engineering.

fiatlux

I do think that "ILX" Type-S will get the 2.0T to go up against the likes of the S3, CLA35 AMG, and M235i Gran Coupe. I'm actually really excited about that, because (on paper at least) the CTR engine is more powerful than all of those, and we already know that engine is underrated by a fair bit. We just have to hope that Acura doesn't just make it merely competitive with the current offerings from the competitors and future-proofs it, seeing as how the 2022 S3 is expected to get a healthy power bump as the current one is getting long in the tooth. If the CTR is supposed to compete with (and beat) the Golf R, then it stands that the "ILX" Type-S should compete with (and beat) the S3, which is really a gussied up Golf R (a good thing mind you).

Honda430

There’s something that I don’t understand. You guys are bitching about the S only having 355 HP, but nobody wants to pay more than $50k. That 340i most of you are raving about cost $63,000 when equipped like the S assuming the S has a heads up display. Question, how much above $50k would you be willing to pay for 35 more HP which would probably come at the cost of longevity? 🤷🏾‍♂️

russianDude

3-4k over similarly equipped tlx 2.0t

04WDPSeDaN

iTrader: (1)

We don't know all the details on the type-s as of yet so just wait for the official price tag and standard options.

Further more, M340i is way under rated, please don't go with published numbers. The vehicle has been tested and has been proven to outperform all it's claimed numbers. True longevity comes with years of ownership which the TLX isn't even out yet and the M340i is a year old.. The way one should look at it is this, If you're all about performance with the ability to do more, then go with the competition. If you don't really care about having the most performance, then wait for the TLX-S. You don't have to be tied down to only one brand in life, go out there and buy whatever works for you.

Honda430

There’s a real simple solution here just buy a 340i.

russianDude

People will pay 3-4k more for 3.0t over similarly equipped 2.0t car, but if its like 10k more, forget it

fiatlux

Who's nobody? When I spec out an M340i xDrive the way I want it, it comes out to $62K. Optioned similarly, I'd be willing to pay $57K for the Type-S. The $5K difference isn't for the badge, but for the lousy Acura service experience and concerns about fit/finish concerns.

fiatlux

You think you can get an extra 82 horsepower, Brembo brakes, larger wheels, adaptive suspension, beefed up drivetrain, and who knows what else for just an extra $3-4K? If they did that, ain't nobody buying the 2.0T.

Stepping up from the base 330i to the M340i is an extra $15K. A4 to S4 is $12K. C300 to C43 AMG is $14K. You better bet the Type-S will be sniffing at a $10K premium over the regular TLX.

BEAR-AvHistory

Think you would be shocked by the number. Thing is you will not find many here. People who do run gravitate to other brands sites that cater to that market segment. With some brands like Porsche, BMW, Mazda, Corvette there are specific schools run by the manufactures, large parts networks & full out national competition series.

The major domestic brands have always been involved with customer based racing on the drag strip. Again parts including complete racing engines etc are available over the counter from them. I remember commenting on the G3 forum years ago that on some brands forums modding was about cams, cylinder heads & other brands about floor mats, mirror covers etc.

Acura right now is firmly into floor mats & mirror covers. I expect that management hopes the 3L TT DOHC V6 will bring back the cams & cylinder head guys.

Takes very little power to maintain steady state speed and on the street, about 20BHP to maintain 60MPH. You can tell which is more powerful as soon as you want to change that. It takes less foot pressure & less gear shifting to change speeds. The more power you have the more corresponding torque you have. 5WHP no, 25/30WHP you are in the realm of "feeling it".

fiatlux

I guess it's a chicken and the egg issue. Does Acura not build track worthy cars because Acura owners don't go to the track, or does nobody take Acuras to the track because they don't build anything for that crowd? The last two cars that wouldn't be out of place at the track that Acura built was the 2008 TL Type-S and 2006 RSX Type-S. It's been over a decade. Whereas, when I go to the track I regularly see 335is, 340is, M340is, M240is, 135is, S4s, S5s, etc. And that's not even counting all the M3/M4 and RS5s.

I was excited that maybe, just maybe Acura was finally going to build something to bring the enthusiasts back to the brand, but I'm getting more and more of a sense that they're really just targeting the enthusiasts who can't afford to buy German...

04WDPSeDaN

iTrader: (1)

Or test drive what's currently out there and make your judgments after.

mondster

Take into account the aggressive incentives that bmw offers vs the more likely msrp/above msrp demand of acura dealers for the type s...

csmeance

^ Yep, friend is a tech at infiniti and had to replace a complete engine last week due to a tune causing a piston to grenade. He's seen quite a few TX at his old dealership and this was the 2nd in FL since moving in march. The failed injectors have caused quite a few to nearly blow up according to him even stock.

Honda could not deliver the HP/Weight ratio that Mclaren wanted, and BMW was able to go above and beyond and make the engine fit, be lighter and have more power.