04WDPSeDaN

iTrader: (1)

I suggest you catch up on the other threads where all this was previously discussed and beaten to death. There's a lot more than what's being said or on paper with power figures, drive terrain setups ect. Whatever official information provided by Acura so far is correct information. Anything else discussed is based on speculations, not misinformation. Soon enough the official performance numbers will come out. Those claims will be tested by journalists and enthusiasts. Til someone puts the new TLX (base and type-s) on rollers, we can only go with what Acura says and the numbers are true (not under rated).

leomio85

Why start a thread based solely on speculation if you're then going to say such asinine things as "the car also hasn't even been released yet and your making a unsubstantiated claim." Jesus H Christ.

It's Honda. They're not going to produce a separate/modify a drivetrain solely for the TLX-S, they're not that kind of operation. Yes, I'm being a bit facetious with the numbers ... it'll probably break 5.0s, but barely, yet I still have my doubts. Every spec release for the Type S has been utter disappointment. So, I say aim low so your expectations aren't dashed when people think it'll run with an S4 while being several hundred pounds heavier and have a weak drivetrain targeted primarily at fuel economy. For comparison, a Taurus SHO weighing a little over 4,300lbs and producing 365HP does 0-60 in 5.2s. This is probably the closest to what the TLX-S will be ... a pig with a drivetrain not designed for hard launches.

Even the 3G RDX has a plethora of complaints about throttle lag that Honda tuned in to protect its fragile SH-AWD drivetrain. As more comparison and to highlight Honda's transmission tuning, the 3G RDX weighing slightly under 4,000lbs (SH-AWD) producing 272HP/280tq does 0-60 in 6.6s. A 2018 Audi Q5 2.0T producing 252HP/273tq weighing 4,180lbs does 0-60 in 5.8s. So tell me again how I'm spreading misinformation rather than being a fanboy who thinks Honda is infallible. GTFO here.

*all specs and 0-60 times taken from C&D as a consistent source.

As an aside, I'll still be interested in the TLX-S even with lackluster 0-60 times as they don't mean a whole lot to me. I don't launch my cars hard because I don't like straining the drivetrain, no matter how well built. If it responds well to a tune and get get in the ballpark of 500HP thru mods without tearing into the turbo, and I can get it for well under sticker, I'll still be interested. I won't delude myself into thinking that it'll shine in the 0-60 category. Outside of that, I've been disappointed with most every detail of the Type S thus far.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

fiatlux

This is getting close to troll territory. You claim ignorance on many matters related to cars, but then vehemently reject educated and data informed guesses without providing any substance to back up your own claims? If it sounds like a troll, and smells like a troll...

lowgrowl

Ok. You made some statements about the drive-train and weight that have merit. Maybe your right ,all we can do is wait and see. By the way, I am not a Honda fanboy. But I do think it's pathetic that expensive cars like the Audi and BMW can not provide long term reliability and a reasonable repair cost. I have a TL with 318K miles and I have only had to replace normal wearable items. No one would every try that on a german car without having deep pockets and high tolerance for stress.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

Tomorrow, there will be another thread on the same subject

pyrodan007

If you do high mileage and know that parts and labor are expensive, Germans should not be part of the equation. It comes with the initial purchase price. If you're fine with it, then it can be fixed.

lowgrowl

To me if you're going to pay upwards of 50K for a car, it should be reliable. No argument that The German cars have nicer interiors, better performance. etc. But the fact that they're a serious risk to own after the warranty with the money one pays for it, really blows my mind.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

they are reliable....you're just not an expert on what you're speaking about
the one thing you said that was correct, is that prices for parts are a little higher than Honda parts...
but for the most part, newer BMWs are pretty reliable.

lowgrowl

Are you a expert ?. Just read the consumer reports (no there not BS) long term reliability data on BMW's, talk to people (like I have) about their ownership experiences with and then learn to keep quiet when YOU don't know what YOUR talking about. After warranty they explode

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

no they dont.

fiatlux

I've owned plenty of German cars after the warranty period is up and I haven't had any explode on me. In fact, I've never had a German car leave me stranded before (cannot say the same thing about my Acura...). I guess you didn't talk to me .

pyrodan007

You should check the site for yourself, you can clearly see one improved and the other is not great.

TLX

A4:

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

this applies to everything in life!
if you know going in and have the means to fix it, nothing should be a surprise.
applies to all aspects of life, not just cars.

Tony Pac

Buying the most "Reliable" German car means: be ready to spend money! German cars are just expensive to fix in general. My neighbor hit his BMW 3 series somewhere and a piece of plastic broke, when I say a piece of plastic. Believe me, it was nothing but a little flap the size of an iphone costed him $320 CAD to replace. The dealer said, it's nothing, he can leave it broken and there is no issue. But since his car is 4 weeks old, he replaced it. Oh i forgot to give more detail, on the part says: Made in Germany

So I looked at that piece of plastic costing $320 not just shocked me but I told myself: I am not ready for German cars! i rather drive an Acura or Lexus for now.

bilirubin

Oh man I hope you're wrong! A 5-plus second 0-60 would be embarrassingly bad. If you're right, it's not only the slowest car in its class (eg. Audi S4), but even slower than their SUV-counterparts (eg. Audi SQ5).

Acura has said for a while now that the Type S will be their "quickest sedan ever". The current king is the RLX Sport Hybrid, which hits 0-60 in 4.9s and 1/4-mile of 13.6s. It ought to beat those times, hopefully.

Kense

Thinking about it, I think the most realistic 0-60 times will be 4.8-4.9. Also German cars "unreliability" is largely due to the electronics they also are not any more expensive to fix. There were several articles about that as being a myth. Unless you have one of the more expensive models you're going to pay about the same.

Tony Pac

Don't forget the resale value. Who cares about those useless websites who give random feedback about cars.

I just checked Montreal market for a used 2017 MDX vs Q7. It's unbelievable how close they are in terms of pricing (used market). The difference in price is almost non existent. But when you buy a brand new MDX vs. Q7, the price difference isn't $1-2K but in 2 digits. German cars are amazing but for the first 3-4 years. After that good luck! Btw - i compared a 2017, milage around 50-60K KM. So the comparison is pretty fair. If you want to go a step further, compare a RX350 to Q7, and I promise you the RX will have a higher price than used Q7.

fiatlux

If you care about long-term reliability, why do you also care about resale value at the 3 year mark? If a car is supremely reliable, I wouldn't care that it has a higher resale value because I'm not planning on selling it anyways. And if I did plan on reselling it after 3 years, why would I care that it has long-term reliability? Presumably you'd want to keep the car for a long long time, and as we all know cars in similar segments tend to converge towards the same price as time goes on, regardless of the trim level and original MSRP.

Tony Pac

Of course you do. My dad changes his cars every 6-7 years. A 6-7 years Japanese car will definitely hold its value better than a German one (in general, there is also exceptions..) Also, while he is keeping his car for 6-7 years, he doesn't want to go to dealer every day for repairs or spend thousands of dollar. That theory may work for a very few people but for the general population, reliability and resale value are more important than driving dynamics. The reason behind that is cost/affordability and also not every one is an enthusiasts and wants 400HP. If everyone could afford 400 HP and race car, Porsche would have beat Honda in sales

Kense

Honestly I don't care about resale value because you never get your money back anyways. It's why I lease these days, there seems to be an obsession with re-sale value like people are holding onto cars in order to see how much they will be worth in 8 years. Even if the car has a better re sale value, the dealership 9 times out of 10 is going to rape you on it anyways and not give you the true value.

fiatlux

My point is that you mentioned 3-year resale value, but then also praise things like long-term reliability. I still can't grasp why 3-year resale value matters if you care about long-term reliability, because you never get to benefit from the latter if you benefit from the former. If you wanted to stretch it to 6-7 year resale value, then fine, but use that figure instead, even then the benefit is a little iffy because:
1) Your exposure to out-of-pocket repairs is just 2-3 years outside of the factory warranty, and just the deductible if you get an extended warranty (which generally aren't all that expensive).
2) I wouldn't consider 6-7 years to be considered long-term. To me, long term reliability is more like 8-10+ years.
3) Over 6-7, the price difference can be amortized over a longer span, so the extra cost doesn't actually seem all that much more, all while you get to enjoy a nicer and better car.

I don't think anyone will argue that German cars do cost more to own, but what is debatable is by how much. Different studies have tried to quantify that, but each person's circumstance is different so its hard to apply; for instance, I do all my own maintenance after the free maintenance period is up, so I don't have to pay the outrage markups. And I cap my financial exposure by buying an extended warranty when I believe it to have a positive expected value. And I religiously keep tack of everything to make sure I can nip problems in the bud before they become expensive issues.

sonyfever

Show some love won't you? The base TLX might be hopeless from 0-60 point of view. But Type-S is definitely a sub-5 car! All Acura said was the Type-S pace car engine was 355. It is not the final spec!

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

it's hard to show love when Honda snubs us every time.

fiatlux

#2 from the fanboi excuse generator list:
https://acurazine.com/forums/second-.../#post16607393

leomio85

I honestly hope I'm wrong too. But, with the disappointment Honda has given us with each new reveal of the car, I'm not banking on it. I'm keeping my expectations very low going forward. I don't trust any part of their marketing.

sonyfever

lol,I am more of a fan for Tesla and BMW these days TBH....

Speed Guy

From a marketing point of view, the TLX Type-S needs to be 4.9 seconds or better in the 0-60. It's a psychological barrier, that, once broken, makes the car seem like part of a different class. I remember the exact same thing with WRX STI of the past. Everybody who had one could say they had a sub-5 car. The vast majority of drivers will never track their Type-S. They just want to know that they can blow past the Honda Odyssey at the light.

If 0-60 were really more important than sub-5 then consumers would go buy the actual sports sedans. I suspect that a little bit of a kick-in-the-pants torque acceleration off the line is all that most 35-44 year old parents of two want (that's the demographic, right?).

leomio85

3yr Resale Luxury Brands:
https://caredge.com/ranks/depreciati...ry/3-year/best

5yr Resale Luxury Brands:
https://caredge.com/ranks/depreciati...ry/5-year/best

Acura doesn't trump Audi, BMW and M-B until 7yrs:

https://caredge.com/ranks/depreciati...ry/7-year/best

Honda/Acura quality is falling hard and fast. They're not the same company they were in the early-2000's. I like Honda ... I really do, but that doesn't mean I won't be critical of them. I expect high standards from them, and my 3G RDX has deplorable build quality. Most of the things I've been savvy enough to remedy myself, but if I wasn't, I'd be up a wall with how poorly built it is. The TLX, built in a cross-town factory, will likely have the same build quality issues. This is further reason why I won't pay an OTD price for under sticker for the TLX-S. If I can't get that deal, the TLX-S will never be in my driveway and a BMW will be. It should be telling that Toyota would risk their famed reliability reputation and essentially reskin a BMW Z4 as their Supra. That B58 engine and drivetrain must be built very well for Toyota to have gone that route. Hopefully Honda didn't cut too many corners with this 3.0T and 10AT.

Kense

4.9 would be seriously pathetic, the Non Red Sport Q50 does that with 300 HP.

alpha0

Just saw review of CT5-V. It is about 4000 lbs, 360hp and 405 lb-ft and 0-60 in 4.6. It would be great if Type S can do 0-60 in 4.5-4.7 range. I understand very few times in real life you care for that time but to create the impression that it is a performance variant, it is needed.

Tony Pac

with all respect to you, please don’t even bring Q50 in this forum lol.

Infiniti also gives a 400HP with an amazing price and still no one buys it. It doesn’t matter what Infiniti does at this moment, it’s irrelevant. The company is shutting down dealers across the world.

Kense

no one? I have a Red Sport and it will blow the doors off most cars. If people want to be dumb and pass on that car because they want a driving iPhone so be it.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Yea, we will find out soon I guess! The engine and tranny are definitely good in a sense that the Accord has shown that the power is definitely there. Just hoping they don't detune it too much to protect the AWD system. 5.7 ad 14.3 respectively would be competitive.

Porsche has a tendency to underrate their cars haha. That Cayenne is probably making 335 wheel hp. Also Porsche cars launch really hard.

lowgrowl

I'm just wondering why the Audi 2.0 A4 quattro can do in like 5.2.Anyway, the 5.7 isn't bad, but it's about what the accord 2.0 does it in. Wouldn't it be a shame for Acura to have the TLX not out performing one of it's mainstream cars ? I'm not saying your wrong. But wouldn't you find it really odd if it didn't beat the accord in acceleration ? I mean god, your paying 10k more for it.

bilirubin

We most certainly will. I hope the 2.0T TLX is using the "beefed-up" components from the Type S. That would explain the excessive weight, and also mean it will significantly put more power down to the wheels than the RDX. More importantly, that also means that the Type S might not be that much heavier than the 2.0T model. We could be significantly underestimating the performance.

And yes, Porsche is famous for "under-promising, and over-delivering". The Cayenne is likely making 60 more hp crank than what they're saying. BMW under-rates their hp #'s quite a bit as well, eg. the M340i's self-proclaimed "382hp" B58 engine on the latest Supra was dyno'ed by C&D and actually puts 388hp to the wheels, meaning about 420+ hp crank. It's worth noting Honda actually under-rated the Civic Type R's 306hp. The 2.0T's shown to put about 300hp to the wheels, so it's at least 330hp crank. The "252hp" Accord dyno'ed 265hp at the wheels, meaning about 290hp crank. That could mean the TLX Type S might actually be 390hp crank.

Obviously this is speculation but that's part of the fun. Dyno results shouldn't be compared between 2 different machines. They can vary quite a bit and only good for "before-and-after" testing of modifications on the same dyno. You can't really compare results from 2 different machines due to poor inter-rater reliability.

bilirubin

The Audi is about 400 lbs lighter than the TLX 2.0T SH-AWD, and has a very quick DCT. Audi is also known for under-rating their HP figures.
An Accord can do 0-60 in 5.3s as per C&D. Please read the other comments on this thread, it's already been discussed.

lowgrowl

I've driven the 2.0 accord and it's fast. I've read mid fives but that's good to hear. The Audi A4 & S4 perform very well.. And is it my humble opinion ( and hope) that the TLX base and Type S will be very close to their numbers. Let's all think positively.

Tony Pac

Happy you have one and you’re enjoying it. No disrespect to you.

But please check Infiniti sales number last year and this year. The Q50 should be selling like hot cakes. Infiniti gives you 400HP and almost $8K discount (Canada). For $60K Canadian, there is no car at that price with 400HP. Yet Infiniti sells less than 200 units a month. Almost the same goes in the US. So yes, doesn’t matter how good or fast the car is. I can tell you it doesnt sell. If a car doesn’t sell, to me it’s a failure.

Again, no disrespect to you or your choice.

bilirubin

Agreed. I test drove a Q50 Red Sport a couple years ago. On the plus side, it's very quick with almost no turbo lag. The transmission is good too (but not DCT-quick).

But there's a few things holding it back. Most obvious is the steer-by-wire. The steering feels waaaaay too artificial for my liking. It was a deal-breaker for me.
Also I wished Infiniti did more to make the Red Sport stand out. The perforated dual-exhaust tips look very "Pep Boys", they should've given it a proper quad-exhaust. And besides the red 'S' it's hard to tell it's a Red Sport. It should've had more unique styling like fender flares, or a more aggressive body-kit, or even Red Sport badging. The interior doesn't look very sporty, the gauges look more luxury than performance, and the infotainment is almost as ancient as the G1 TLX.

The Q50 Red Sport is a fine car but somewhat of a disappointment. The dwindling sales despite steep discounts speaks for itself.